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Lionheart & Platinum Sword: When Lionheart was proposed by Raven, he gave it 11 WP, which made it the most powerful weapon in its category.  In compensation, it granted no W-EV.  Nevertheless, fearing its effect on the meta-game, we eventually reduced its WP to 10.  However, its W-EV penalty persisted. With the WP nerf, Lionheart and Platinum Sword are of equal strength.  In fact, when you equip Attack UP, Platinum Sword is actually stronger when your PA is 3*n.  Lionheart's sole advantage is increasing the strength of PA-based skills, primarily Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  Rune Blade increases the strength of MA-based skills in an analogous way, and it has had 10 W-EV from the beginning.  Giving Lionheart back its 10 W-EV seems natural to me for this reason.

Slasher & Platinum Sword: Axes can only be equipped by a select few classes (i.e. Paladin and Geomancer).  Furthermore, these classes have 8 SP.  On the other hand, Platinum Sword can be equipped by Thieves.  Thus, I think it's fine if we make Platinum Sword weaker than Slasher.

Battle Axe:  I'm trying to avoid a knee-jerk nerf here by increasing the proc rate from 25% to 33%.  Overall damage is still lower than before (0.33*0.50 < 0.25*0.85).  Other weapons hit for over 50% damage 100% of the time, so I don't find this very intimidating.  The proc rate increase will make it nice to punch through targets with Cherche and the new Save the Queen.

Iron Fan and Ivory Rod:  Iron Fan might be at home on Druids if Druids can equip both poles and shields.

Stone Gun:  This gun definitely needs a nerf to make crossbows viable, and The Damned is right in suspecting that removing Init: Petrify will do more harm than good.  Rather, why don't we leave it as is, but make it force two-hands?  We won't need to consume an item attribute space for -1 SP this way.

This is unrelated, but

Lancers: Would anyone be uncomfortable with giving Lancers an extra 1~3 MA?  I recently noticed that Lancers are supposed to be able to use poles. (I say "supposed to" because they clearly cannot with their lousy MA).  If Lancers get extra MA, female Lancers with poles might actually become a "thing."

Diamond Shield blocks Earth and Holy, and I think Float (the movement) should also factor in too. So that would be 8 defenses against Earth and 5 against Holy.

Forgot about those shields.  Wind, Water, Earth, and Holy should be increased by one.  I was only tallying equipment, so Float was left out.  If we include it, then yeah, Earth has 8.

(Ugh...fucking fatigue....)

Go exercise!

1. Winded:

So your requirement for elements is for each to have at least two MA-based, friendly-fire AoE skills?  That's currently untenable.  What about Fire and Holy?  Fire only has one (well, three, but they're all on the same skill set), and Holy has none at all!

Additionally, my recalling at least a couple of people besides myself saying that Salamander probably shouldn't add Oil means that if that changes, then Leviathan gets another implicit boost.

Nerfing Salamander doesn't boost Leviathan.  It just makes both of them bad.

If you honestly think Maelstrom is "niche", then you and I have very different definitions of that word.

I use the dictionary's definition of niche: "specialized."  As in, "Maelstrom is niche in that every member of one's party needs to be equipped to resist water."  The scholar usually needs extremely high MA and/or 0 Move to be effective, as well.  Just because it's niche doesn't mean it has to suck.

Anyway, using Maelstrom to discuss the merits of water is moot:  Scholars are losing 2 base MA, and Water absorption is being shifted from Defense Ring to (the fashionably unpopular) Jade Armlet.

- Heaven's Cloud: 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Water Element, 50% Dispel Magic, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Masamune: 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Initial: Haste & Regen, 25%-33% Slow, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Leviathan: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Slow rather than 20% Cancel: Positive Status. (Only counting this as a buff since current Leviathan [and Water, for that matter] can get rid of Faith.)
- Salamander: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Don't Move rather than 20% Add: Oil.

That nerf to Salamander is unnecessary.  I don't see Salamander as a very exploitable way of applying Oil compared to Short Edge.  Besides, we're still waiting to hear back on how Oil can be nerfed as a status.  The nerf to Oil itself might be enough to assuage your anxiety over Salamander.

As for the others, I don't mind one way or the other.

If we really wanted to make Asura not enemy-only, then do we have to make anything else enemy-only really?

How about making the Draw Out skill that applies Slow enemy only?  Other than that, nothing.  Seeing how unpopular the current Asura is in comparison to Chirijiraden and Koutetsu, nothing of value is being lost here.

... considering Frog being made even slightly more accurate is to me ultimately a rather moderate buff even with the (necessary) MP increase given that Frog still remains basically a "you probably lose this unit for good" K.O.-esque spell like Petrify.

You typically lose the frog until it dies, and it dies quickly due to its receiving bonus damage, which the AI loves.  Maybe the buff is not necessary and can, thus, be removed.  Although, I do remember hearing somebody (was it Reinoe?) express interest in it.

[Flare and Holy]

I am adamantly against nerfing Holy.  It (and, to a lesser extent, Cyclops) is the only skill the holy element has.  And you're worried about Wind!  The nerf to Golden Hairpin is already going to drop Holy's damage by 20~30 across the board.

Flare's ability to ignore M-EV (and reflect) is huge.  It allows Flare to punch through teams using Abandon -- teams against which Holy falls flat.  Flare would be worse than Holy if it was on White Magick.

So the only Black Magic spell that is actually going to remain "weak" going into 1.39 is, again, Poison, which is basically anathema to everything Black Magic is trying to accomplish anyway and why I keep saying that spell should just [be given to Time Mages].

Poison has its place.  Wizards use Poison when they're up against units with elemental resistances and/or Shell.  It's not supposed to compete with tiered magic.  That's why it's affordable.  Giving it to Time Mages will just add more noise to the Time Magick skill set.  Time Mages already have Slow, Stop, and Don't Move to play with, and the AI loves applying these just as much as Poison.

I don't understand how the wind element is getting screwed over if the current Heaven's Cloud is useless to begin with.  Even if wind loses Heaven's Cloud, it still has Silf, Fuuton, and Tornado, all of which are above-average abilities (especially since Fuuton's damage is getting buffed).  It also has Air Knife, which Dokurider demonstrates works well on Thieves.

On the other hand, water weapons and abilities are under-represented (even before supposing that Suiton is scratched.) Leviathan is one of the weaker summons for being 5 CT, having a multiplier of only 8, and having a status proc that doesn't disable; Maelstrom is incredibly niche.

Let me restate that the only case in which I want to make Heaven's Cloud water elemental is if Thief Hat loses "Half: Water".  Thief Hat is what kills Heaven's Cloud in my mind.  As for the Slow proc, well... if absorption is that important, we could always shift it over to Asura.  Mind you, not every Draw Out ability needs to be absorbed.

1. Kibaku Fuda's formula: ...

You're right about the homogeniety.  To be honest, using PA makes the skill harder to use well, but we'll run with it for now.

Meh. I can understand you reacting with hesitance given that Wizards or Black Magic still haven't exactly "taken off" despite all they got going into 1.38. You have to consider (further), however, that they're already getting a lot of buffs going into 1.39 merely by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying, the spellguns no longer going by Faith and Flare getting buffed. Then people agreed rather quickly that Death needed some type of buff, which it's now "definitely" getting in the form of going by Un-Brave and, in a way, Frog is getting buffed as well by becoming more accurate even if it will cost more MP. It wouldn't surprise me if people still wanted to see Poison buffed since it doesn't seem to be switching classes as I would personally want given that I think the key issue with Poison is that it's on the wrong class (unless "we" are doing that MP Poison & MP Regen thing).

You surely agree, though, that Frog, Flare, and Death are currently weak?  Frog was nerfed hard after the ailment was made to expire on death; Flare's buff is very minor; lastly, Death is becoming stronger primarily against 40 BrFa teams, but will still be unreliable against anything with a drop of M-EV.  We're lifting the bottom floor here.

Faith Rods are a valid concern with the spellgun change.  A Wizard with 17 MA and a Faith Rod deals 223~313 damage using (buffed) short-charged Bolt 2.  However, this wizard is woefully exposed to magic, particularly Summon Magick and Water, against which Reflect Ring offers no protection.  Besides, I don't think I'm alone in wanting Black Magick to be destructive even without Faith Rods.  Faith Rods are quite niche, after all.

Furthermore, that raises the issue of if Heaven's Cloud the katana should remain Wind element even though Heaven's Cloud the ability becomes Water. If not, then Wind loses a weapon as well as an ability, though it could better afford to lose a weapon even if Grand Cross with current Heaven's Cloud is the easiest Wind Grand Cross for Paladin to access.

Shifting the weapon to water element would be sensible.  I'm not really concerned.  We could turn Coral Sword into a Wind weapon that procs Kamaitachi, Sandstorm, or Gusty Wind to compensate.

Additionally, I don't think people ever really agreed about the Monk element thing (or Earth-flail for that matter), at least yet.

To be honest, I haven't heard comments nor complaints.  In fact, I think only Raven and I voiced approval at the moment (Raven because he proposed it, and me because I'm writing this sentence.)

If memory serves me right, there are a few maps I left out last season that people want back in.  I'll add them if I can find their names.

Also, how do we want map sizes ordered?  We usually go small-large-medium, but since most matches are decided after two rounds, we hardly ever get to see the medium maps.  Should we try small-medium-large this time around?

Concerning giving Excalibur Haste, Paladins are typically as slow as snails, so the buff would allow them to keep pace with the other classes.  Bear in mind that Paladins do not have native access to Thief Hat or Secret Clothes, so Excalibur will not add more than 2 SP.  On top of that, the Paladin will not be able to be Hasted by skills for additional speed, as Haste will already be applied.

Excalibur would become an amazing weapon, to be sure, so we could dial back a few of its other features to compensate, as we are with Save the Queen and Ragnarok.

Simply adding 1 WP is fine, too.

Are you sure?  The Paladin, Thief, and Squire are nearly maximized, too (Barbuta/Twist Headband, Carabini Mail/Power Sleeve, and a +1 PA accessory).  I wouldn't want to boost staff WP any further at any rate, since MA can be effectively applied to support secondaries such as White Magick and Draw Out, whereas PA cannot.  That's the benefit of using a slow, squishy mage as a melee unit, I suppose.

Edit: I've also been calculating rod damage.  Fire, Ice, and Thunder Rods are pretty scary.

2x Fire Rod (with Fire 2 buff)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (155~218) damage [381~534 total damage]

2x Fire Rod (current)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (141~198) damage [367~514 total damage]

Ice and Thunder Rods are progressively weaker, respectively.

These are easily the most damaging dual-wieldable weapons in the game, even now in 1.38d.  With 70 Brave and Faith, the oracle is highly susceptible to attacks that ignore evasion (e.g. guns, 1.39 Titan, etc.), but still!  One way to prevent this damage is to forbid these rods from being dual-wielded.  They'll still be viable as two-handable weapons, but the average spell proc rate will drop by 0.5, thereby reducing the average total damage by 80~110.

On a related note, the Ice and Thunder Rods need their WP boosted by 1 to be comparable to Fire Rod.

Finally:

I'm not sure how everyone feels about my proposal about dropping Ultimus Bow down a WP, perhaps hesitance?

Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP by 1 is a good idea.  Kibaku Fuda is appearing to be pretty broken with its Dmg_B(SP*WP) formula. (e.g. A 14 SP archer deals around 190~260 damage using Kibaku Fuda with a Mythril Bow and Attack UP.  That is too high for what is supposed to be a debuffing skill.)  However, lowering Mythril Bow's WP by 1 only reduces Kibaku Fuda's damage by around 10 points.  For this reason, we probably need to settle on a new formula.  Is it possible to incorporate WP in the Geomancy formula [e.g. SP*(WP+Y)/2]?

That's odd.  I don't think it would make a difference either.  What error message is it giving you?

Eldritch Staff/Healing Staff: I can understand being accused of that version being overpowered, but I'm really not understanding why your version ONLY has Strengthen: Dark I guess. Why does it not still have Strengthen: Holy, especially since no other Two Swords-compatible weapon can do that? Also, I'm guessing you came up with "Eldritch Staff", right?

To avoid synergy with the spell Holy.  And yes, I came up with the name.  Thought it was fitting, given that it boosts dark, yet heals on hit.

3. Wizard Staff: ... Really, the only thing that losing Wizard Staff would actually mean is that you can't have attack Priests

We could have attack Time Mages as well depending on what we do with them. 

5. Air Knife: ... That said, if that's the case, then shouldn't Orichalcum be boosted to 13 WP as well since otherwise it's "inferior" to Katar too, especially when Two Handed.

Orichalcum is used to boost MA, though.  It's not supposed to compete with Katar.

6. Throwing Knife: Personally, I think even with 12 WP, that its proc probably won't need to be lowered, especially since unlike the other Knives it can't even be used with Counter due to its range. Also personally though, I thought that only boosting it to 11 WP would be fine, but if people want to go with 12 WP, then I doubt anything will end up broken.

Well, as long as the proc rate isn't touched, I won't object.

12. Cover Fire: ... weren't you the one with the "Patch Me" team? I thought you built that to show off that Cover Fire still needs fine-tuning?

Patch Me has... well, been patched.  I published it when Cover Fire was 1~3.  The team is less effective now.

13. Monk skills: No, I meant "why are the elements switched around from what Raven initially suggested?

Ah, naluhodo.  Thief Hat doesn't enter into the decision.  I reason that if an elemental skill ignores evasion, its element should be Earth.  If the change conflicts with equipment for whatever reason, that equipment can be adjusted.

I don't have time to comment on every one of your points, Damned, but:

1. White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental.

Hmm.  I kept White Staff at 7 WP because it packs a punch when dual-wielded.  A balanced setup (Golden Hairpin, 2x White Staff, 12 MA, 70 Brave) deals 164~230 damage.  Dia procs once on average, adding an extra 50~99 damage (40-40 Faith and 70-70 Faith, respectively) with a chance of Blind.  All things considered, average damage is around 240~305 with a chance of Blind.  By comparison, 12-PA dual-Platinum Swords deal 226~318 damage with zero chance of Blind.

At 8 WP, dual-White Staff damage rises by around 30 HP on average.  It outperforms Platinum Swords, but is susceptible to elemental resistances.  Are we okay with that?

2. Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)

I found this overpowering.  Eldritch Staff is the same, but without the W-EV boost, nor Strengthen: Holy.  It's essentially an H-Bag, but with 10% more W-EV, zero chance of wasting turns smacking enemies, and a small boost to Demi, Lich, and Koutetsu.  The W-EV boost is transferred to Gold Staff, which is in greater need of buffs.

3. Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA.
4. Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff.

I'm with Raven in believing that there is no problem with the current Wizard Staff.  Wizard Staff exists for classes that do not have access to Wizard Rod, and vice versa.  This version of Rainbow Staff will overshadow Wizard Rod.  Thus, I cannot agree with a staff getting both +2 MA and immunity to Oil unless Wizard Rod gets something as well.

I am more inclined to making Rainbow Staff Black Staff and leaving Wizard Staff as is.

5. Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%

Gold Staff's W-EV is set to 20% so that magick users fancy it simply for resilience to physical-based offense.  Setting its WP to 10 will make it vastly superior to Parry Edge, though, seeing as how Gold Staff cancels positive statii at 100%.  This is another Masamune-killer weapon.  We simply don't see it because stave wielders as a concept are unpalatable.  I think it is better to make the +2-MA staff the beastly DPS weapon (seeing as how... well... it has +2 MA), and leave Gold Staff for its sinister auxiliary effect.

In other words, how does boosting the +2-MA weapons to 10 WP sound?

Then again, Parry Edge sucks in its own right.  Maybe Gold Staff can be bumped up to 9 WP in spite of all this.

2. IIRC, Air Knife is actually getting decreased to 11 WP, not 12, since it will still be the most powerful Knife between Oil and/or Strengthen. It needs to neither beat nor tie with Katar and Orichalcum from the start, even with Thief Hat around halving Wind.

I must have missed this discussion.  Did we seriously agree with dropping Air Knife's WP all the way to 11?  I understand that it's currently very powerful, but I don't want to nerf it into oblivion.  At 11 WP, Air Knife with 108 Gems will be no stronger than Katar.  However, at least with Katar the accessory slot is free for Cherche and whatnot.

If it's Oil we're afraid of, then we should be fixing Oil.  Oil shouldn't be overriding elemental resistances in my mind.

3. You missed people more or less agreeing that Throwing Knife should get more WP since it's...barely whelming right now. [/YJ Robin] I think the consensus (that Raven gave) was 12 WP, even if that might mean its Death Sentence proc may "need" to lessen a bit later.

I disagreed with this, saying that Throwing Knife is attractive for its Death Sentence proc (particularly on support classes, like Chemists and Mediators, who aren't built for damage to begin with).  Raising its WP and reducing its proc rate turns it into yet another DPS weapon.  That's why I left the change out for now.

2. I'm pretty sure Spell Edge still has its +1 MA. No one had a problem with that combined with 100% Spell Absorb.

I accidentally left this out.  I'll add it back.

1. No one actually agreed on the Phoenix Blade thing and I know that I at least thought there should be quite a bit of discussion about Immune: Critical if it stays around at all.

Okay.  I'll cross it out for now.

Axes

Yeah, I am aware of that.  It's not changed at the moment because I don't have time to dig up the full change description. 

1. Yeah...I'm not really sure the now-elemental--you forgot to mark them as neutral--Spears need W-EV nerfs or even WP anymore, especially if Lancers aren't getting a boost to MA. The Spears could maybe lose their +1 Sp though.

You're the second person to comment on these nerfs, so I'll strike the changes out for now.  You think they really need to lose +1 SP, though?  These weapons don't seem particulary powerful to me to begin with.

These are all fine, though I think even I agreed with Raven and the others that the Headbands should have more HP, even if I'm still really uncomfortable with all of the things that Ribbon/Chakra Band now blocks.[/spoiler]

Any suggestions for how much extra HP they should receive?

1. I like the Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet changes since the more I thought about Raven's suggested mantles changes, the more they seemed rather overpowered. Yours might have a tad too much EV though, even Power Wrist if only because of Defending still doubling EV.

I'm just trying to make them good.  They're made to compete with Feather and Leather Mantles: either +1 PA/MA or +20 P/M-EV.

1. I agree with the Auto Potion nerf. I'm not sure if anyone else did though.

I'm pretty sure Auto Potion was supposed to be nerfed last patch, but never was.  I'm simply transferring the change to this patch.

2. Even though your listed MP cost for Hawk's Eye is actually more than my suggested 10, it's still too good at 12 MP as something that adds both Poison and Oil on top of guaranteed damage. It really needs to lose Poison or Oil, preferably the former.

Is Hawk's Eye really that much of a problem?  I don't follow the videos thread, so I'm not aware.  Again, I think Oil is overpowered in its own right.  If we could keep Oil from overriding elemental resistances, and if we also reduce Poison's CT, would you still want to see Hawk's Eye nerfed?

3. Something still needs to be done to make Cover Fire less absurdly swingy, I think people agree; it's just no one suggested how, myself included.

We already did, didn't we?  The RNG chooses a value between 1 and 6 now, rather than 1 and 3 as before.  Cover Fire isn't a top-tier skill any more.

Monk
1. Not really sure why Spin Fist needs an MP cost or why we're reshuffling the proposed elemental changes to the redone Punch Art/Martial Arts, but I'll comment on that the next time I post when I have more time to think over it.

The elements give Wind, Water, and Earth some (much needed) representation in skill sets.  The MP cost was a long time coming, I believe.

Even as much as I've kvetched about White Magick being strong and only getting stronger, I really don't think Wall needs to cost that much MP, especially with no MP increase on Iron Will, Dispel getting a boost and Save the Queen & Ragnarok getting boosts. For Wall, 20-25 MP should probably be the "max".

All right.  I'll strike off the MP nerf.

2. I also approve of the changes to Death, though I think that Dokurider has a point about it probably being better off as Nether spell.

I'm liking the Nether formula, too.  Does anyone object to switching the formula?

3. I'm still unsure how I feel about that Demi change ultimately, but it should be...interesting regardless.

It's best to compare it to first-tier Fire.

Demi: faster CT and is relatively independent of caster MA, but costs more JP, can't be boosted by oil, and is less accurate
Fire: costs fewer JP, does more damage on average, can be boosted by oil, applies oil itself, and is more accurate, but has a slower CT, is strongly dependent on caster MA, and doesn't exist on a skill set with support abilities.

I think they more or less complement each other.

3. I approve of both Mushin and the newer Misogi, though I think both of their JP costs should be (at least) 100 JP. Mushin because Innocent boosts Ninjutsu & greatly lessen most incoming magick. Misogi just because it helps potentially quite a bit, even if it's "only" self-targeting. If I had to pick, though, then I'd go with only the former being 100 JP (or more) since the -ton backed by Innocent status on a unit with above average PA still hit like a (non-Suplexable) train.

Mushin is another one of those skills that is good only on paper.  The AI does not use it proactively.  The traditional way of getting the AI to apply Innocent is to put a Scholar on your team, but even then, the AI will only use it on the first turn; once engaged with the enemy, the AI will often choose to attack rather than reapply Innocent.

Misogi could be bumped up to 100 JP, though.

Why are we changing Iga and Koga Knife in the first place?  I thought it was to get around Thief Hats.

Regardless, even if the Ninjatou combo gets changed to Earth+Fire, there is still Spiked Futon for boosting Wind damage.  The odd one out is now Aspergillum.

I added Monk, Ninja, Lancer, and Mediator changes to the proposal summary.  Concerning monks, the changes allow for an optimized monk (FS Bag, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems, and Martial Arts), to push 300 damage on 70-70 Brave.  Keep in mind that many options for reducing Water, Wind, and Earth damage exist, so it's not so bad.