Final Fantasy Hacktics

Modding => PSX FFT Hacking => Topic started by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 25, 2012, 01:11:16 PM

Title: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 25, 2012, 01:11:16 PM
This thread's for containing miscellaneous spreadsheet utilities I make for myself and decide to publish that don't relate to ASM hacks or otherwise modifying the ISO.

Right now, the only entry I have here is my Mass Stat Calculator, which does what it says on the tin - it lets you input your Level 1 Raws for Male, Female, Monster, then input your C and M values for each job class, and it will output the stats of that class at Level 10, Level 35, Level 50, and Level 99 so you can see how straight-leveled classes balance against each other at three of the more key points in the game.  (Those being AI-battle accepted strength, ~End Chapter 4 strength, and Max Level Strength, assuming an averagely played generic game.)  This information is good for a lot of things, especially AI-stat balance and monster balance.  It comes with Vanilla Defaults as all my workbooks do, so you can quickly see how well Vanilla (didn't) balance itself out at each point in the game, see growth trends by having every class' information directly adjacent to each other, etc.  Now compatible with every Job in the game.  Special Jobs now all have Gender toggles. You must enter the final Multipliers for Zodiac HP and MP to get the correct value though - for example, Queklain's HP multiplier in FFTPatcher is 50, but because he comes with ??? and has his multipliers modified by a factor of 10 in-game, you must enter his HPM as 500 in Mass Stat Calculator to get the value he'll actually have in-game.

After making this, I found it invaluable in finding balance issues I would've easily overlooked otherwise, so hopefully you'll all do the same.

NOTE, if for some reason this spreadsheet "breaks" and you get something like "Err:502" on your stat table and you're not doing something dumb like dividing by 0, go to the Big Sheet 'O Guts tab, find the Job/Stat combo that's errored out, then go to Column AJ.  Column AK should be the bugged column, and merely dragging the contents of AJ into AK should fix AK and all columns after it.  This doesn't happen often but I've had it happen a couple times so if it happens to you, this is how to fix it.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 27, 2012, 09:56:18 PM
Updated to include Level 10 previews to help balance low-level play on request and previews for all Special Jobs with the aide of a Gender toggle.

Yeah now I'm gonna smash my head on a spike, if you'll excuse me.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: LastingDawn on August 28, 2012, 01:05:56 AM
Very nice work! That should help a lot with the balancing portions of people's mods.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 28, 2012, 01:18:47 AM
I'm considering making it so that this sheet can actually export an XML file like my Workbooks do that you can patch to your ISO directly, so that you're not forced to input the data twice between this sheet and FFTPatcher, but I don't actually know where the data is located to do so.

I assume it's located in multiple spots too just to be a dick because Squaresoft but I'd have no clue where to even begin.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 29, 2012, 06:30:15 PM
So I've gained the information needed with a bit of help from Xifanie to not only make this able to generate an XML file to patch data input onto the spreadsheets directly to the ISO, but potentially make it an outright spreadsheet alternative to the FFTPatcher's Jobs tab.

If I went the extra effort to make this able to fully function as a Job Editor and not just a Stat Calculator/Editor, would anyone actually use it?
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: LastingDawn on August 31, 2012, 04:14:04 AM
It would all depend. What advantages or disadvantages would it have in comparison to FFT Patcher?
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: Celdia on August 31, 2012, 09:08:58 AM
Well, for one, presumably everything in it would actually be functional. It would also be able to easily incorporate any number of other worksheets so you could keep one file with all the data for your patch in it including everything available in all of the other stuff Raven has put together (which is no small list.) It wouldn't be confined to the restrictions of format that FFTP forces on things and anyone with some knowledge of how Excel spreadsheets works could modify it to their needs. I've never opened a single book on the subject, nor had a class, but I've managed to make changes to other spreadsheets just from my own simple uses of the program since it is just so accessible - mostly in ways that source code for a program like FFTP isn't.

Also, it wouldn't be FFTPatcher. :P As for disadvantages...well, ideally I'd think the idea of a new tool to do what FFTP does (but better) wouldn't have any disadvantages. Not when you can look at the weaknesses of the older tool and design ways around those flaws when making a new tool. Worst thing that comes to mind would be that people would have to learn how to use it because it's new - which would go for any new tool - and that's mitigated somewhat by Excel being pretty commonly used nowadays.

That's just a few things off the top of my head and I don't even know what Raven actually has in mind here.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 31, 2012, 01:42:58 PM
Everything in the FFT Job's Tab is Functional.  I don't think some people actually realize how at least one of the features works, though.

The advantages would be that, firstly, it's not FFTPatcher.  As a Spreadsheet, you can quickly make Cell copies for duplicate data entries, which can save tons of time.  If you look at how I format things, it's also good for exporting into a Master Guide, so you can use this tool, make your shit, then take direct screenshots and post them in your thread.  It's like a balance-tool and a Master Guide Generator as far as Jobs go all-in-one.

The advantages are that you could do lots of tedious work quickly, and things would for the most part be in a format that would be acceptable for making a Master Guide with.  I'd have to mess with the exact layout to get it to look nice though.  The disadvantages are mostly that it'd be a shitton of incredibly tedious work for me to do in order to make this all work, so if people don't actually want this or otherwise probably wouldn't use this, I'd rather just XML-up what I have and call it a day.

Basically, the only disadvantage is that this would be a big use of my time and I'm not going to waste large chunks of time on things that either barely or won't get used.  I've learned my lesson on that one.  I want to know people will use it before I make it this time.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: LastingDawn on August 31, 2012, 09:50:34 PM
I think Celdia and you have convinced me. It sounds like a really good idea. If you feel it is worth your time of course. I'd definitely make use of it. This can go step by step to replacing FFT Patcher which, don't get me wrong, has been one of the most incredible game editing tools I've ever seen, but with improvements few and far between, not to mention a little difficult to input new things into it's limitations.

It is slightly ironic though that FFT Patcher was built off of Spreadsheets and eventually replaced them and now Spreadsheets seem like they're prime to take the top spot again.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: Timbo on September 01, 2012, 02:46:30 PM
I would love a flexible alternative to FFTPatcher.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: Glain on September 01, 2012, 03:45:47 PM
Don't forget, we can make edits to FFTP. We have the technology.

I can see how seeing all the data in a spreadsheet form as an alternate editing method could be useful at times. We might even be able to add an option to FFTP to export a spreadsheet of your .fftpatch (and maybe import?).

The latest FFTP should also let you ctrl+C, ctrl+V jobs, so it should make copying entries faster than in the older versions. And we can always make other edits to make working with it more efficient (I would need feature requests though).

Ultimately, I would say it doesn't harm anything to do it that way, but we're gonna have to keep FFTP up to date regardless, because even if we say we'll just use spreadsheets to edit everything by hand, new users aren't going to see it that way and will want to use an application to do it.

That said, as long as the spreadsheet patches the right data to the right locations, I'm not really sure what you'd ever have to update about it, so maybe there wouldn't be a parallel updating problem after all.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 01, 2012, 08:32:43 PM
Drag updating from a Spreadsheet is better than a full-copy from entry to entry, since often you're only copying a handful of things.  There's no reason the Jobs tab at least of FFTPatcher should never need updating since everything on it works.  The main advantage of this tool is that it doubles as what's basically a Master Guide Generator for Jobs, lets you see the data in better groups instead of clicking between various entries, and displays stats at various levels.

I don't care about whether FFTPatcher would be updated because I know this would have a lot of advantages over FFTPatcher's Jobs tab and very few disadvantages, I just want to see if people will USE it before I go through the effort of all the logistics.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: Timbo on September 02, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
I would definitely use it.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: The Damned on September 03, 2012, 12:30:39 AM
(And I'm back. To ruin everything for everyone else as per usual.)

I'm going to have to say "No, don't bother with it."

I say that not because I don't think some people would use it for added functionality beyond balancing--I sincerely believe LastingDawn and Celdia would use it and I'd think Jack of All Trades would too, but I "know" him a lot less than the other two. I say it more because I still don't think enough people would use it, especially given the subdued amount of responses so far. Even if I said "yes", that would still only be five people if we also count Glain's relatively apathetic response as a "yes", which I'm personally not.

Thing is, though, while I'll definitely use the level balancing aspect that already exists, I'm personally still not even sure if I'm going to have a publicly viewable stat-based Master Guide. This provided I ever finish Embargo in the first place, which is looking less and less likely at this point besides. So even if I did say "yes", I couldn't really be counted unlike the above three (and Glain) anyway.

While I doubt that you have a strict quantitative number in mind that will sway you from "no" to "yes", I'm pretty sure that "three yes votes" isn't it, especially backed up by a "maybe" or two.

All that said, it's not like I wouldn't want you to do it, I just couldn't in good conscience ask you to spend that much time on something and then have it not see use (again). Maybe if more people, especially who were doing active hacks, were chiming in I wouldn't be saying "no" outright (if I said anything), but so far Celdia's the only person with an active (couple) of hacks.

Out of curiosity though, I'm tempted to ask a question: If you didn't/don't end up spending/wasting time on the Master Guide export aspect of this, then what you be spending said time on besides Real Life (if anything)?
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: ffta707 on September 03, 2012, 04:42:04 AM
I really love your programs raven. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 03, 2012, 03:35:00 PM
Out of curiosity though, I'm tempted to ask a question: If you didn't/don't end up spending/wasting time on the Master Guide export aspect of this, then what you be spending said time on besides Real Life (if anything)?

Journey of the Five, updates to my Spreadsheet Shoppe, updates on EVSP when I recover the Source, pastimes that don't involve FFH.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: The Damned on September 03, 2012, 10:24:21 PM
(Wait, you still have more Spreadsheet Shoppe work?)

Now I'm leaning towards "no" more than ever unless (a lot) more people speak up about this one way in the direction of "yes".

What do you have left to do anyway? I thought the Terrain Editor was going to be one of the last things you got around to.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 03, 2012, 10:53:44 PM
The worksheet containing the Terrain Editor is named Status, Terrain, and Multiplier Workbook.  It currently only contains two workbooks.  I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

There's other updates planned, as well.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: The Damned on September 03, 2012, 11:31:58 PM
(Considering my imagination tends to get me in trouble even when it works, I'll just wait.)

I see. I'm not sure why I thought that, especially since now that I think about it, there's at least one or two more "Spreadsheets" you do for things just in FFTPatcher people say absolutely nothing about.

I'll leave what I'm talking about to your imagination. :p
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 04, 2012, 11:59:20 PM
If you're talking about the Shop Inventory Editor and Proposition Editor Sheets, those two have been removed from my Workbook collection because the functions for them now work in FFTPatcher.  I still have them, though, and can re-add them to the Workbook collection upon request, though I'm pretty sure the Proposition Editor doesn't actually work correctly anyway.

Said update was posted anyway, so your imagination no longer needs to be imagining anything.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: The Damned on September 05, 2012, 04:11:06 AM
(*still waiting for someone else to chime in with a yes*

I'd honestly expected someone from JotF to have chimed at least since you're working with them, but maybe you already know how they feel about this.)

Nope. I wasn't talking about either one of those actually, which only goes to show that literally no one else seems to even thought about what I'm getting at. I thought Eternal did for a while given what I had seen of Parted Ways since I couldn't play it, but it would seem not.

Oh well. More for me to eventually (read: probably never) screw around with.

Said update was posted anyway, so your imagination no longer needs to be imagining anything.

Awww....

Sad face.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 05, 2012, 04:30:15 AM
Considering I handle the gameplay for Journey of the Five, let me handle the obligatory Jot5 team response.

"Hey Raven you should totally make this thing make an XML that covers, everything, it'd make finishing Jot5 a lot easier! 3:"

"K, now go get another 9000 fgts to agree with you and I'll consider it."

Happy now? :v
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: The Damned on September 05, 2012, 05:46:21 AM
(Oh, Raven. You should know by now that I'll never be happy.)

Ah, I see. That makes sense. I'm not even sure why I'm harping on this really, especially since it's ultimately up to you.

Well, not sure beyond boredom and using it as a lame excuse to not do anything productive.

It would seem like pretty much else that's involved with a patch is on some type of hiatus then sans Eternal and FFMaster.

Shrug.
Title: Re: Raven's Utilities Shoppe [Newest: Mass Stat Calculator - Now With Special Jobs!]
Post by: C1REX on March 10, 2018, 04:25:38 PM
Necrobump but relevant. There is a small error in the spreadsheet where PA lvl10 for males is wrong and doesn't change for some jobs like archers or monk when you edit growth and multipliers. Monk lvl10 PA is always 04 for example.