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General => Archives => Mercenaries => Topic started by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 01:26:12 AM

Title: Invoker Job Discussion (Rad/Ramza Skillset Updated!)
Post by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 01:26:12 AM
Lasting Dawn Edit

August 22nd, 2010

Invokers, Practitioners of the Dark[/size]

The Invoker is a class replacing the classic Black Mage, their skillset is called Grimiore though it is in fact Rod's they use singularly. Their abilities grow more powerful with the higher level Rod you may have equipped, but they will deal considerable damage the whole of the game through.  Their MP Growth is non-existent, their source of the small MP they have comes from Grimoires, items that when held flood the mind with knowledge, granting them the power to cast magic, though Mist had abandoned them, for perverting it's natural order.

Their skills are a compilation of many different things, abandoning the linear Fire 1, 2, 3, approach for something which focuses on the Elements alone. They have nine abilities.

These abilities are...

Thanks goes to Philsov and Mav (and many others whose names I can't recall for the original skill ideas)for these wonderful skills!


Quote
Invoker - The black mage-like-class.  Features MA-but-not Fa-based damage with moderate status infliction in some cases.  Hosts the various elements.  I went with a dark/light split on Ramza + Rad.  Seems fitting, ability wise, though you may want to shuffle for thematics.

Iconics:
Explosion - MA * 5 (MA + 30%) Range 4, Effect Area 2, Vertical 2, MP 2 - The Invoker's most destructive spell, as well as the most inaccurate, from a distance the Invoker let's fly a large explosion
Metal (I'm really at a lost for this slot...) - MA * 2 (MA+90%), range 4, AoE 0, MP 1 - Invoker's most basic spell, manipulates the opponents equipment to deal them harm.
(Secret Skill - Blood Sin)

Ramza:
Dark chant - MA * 2 (MA + 65%) Range 2, Effect Area 0, Vertical 5, MP 2, chance to Inflict charm,
Poison  - Engulf - MA * 4 (MA + 60%) Range 2, Effect Area 1, Vertical 4, MP 2, Inflict Poison
Ice - Freeze - MA * 3 (MA + 40%) Range 4, Effect Area 1, Vertical 1, MP 2, Inflict Slow
Earth  - Tremor - MA * 3 (MA + 50%) Range 0, Effect Area 2, Vertical 0, MP 2
Poison + Earth = Rot - MA * 5 (MA + 45%), range 2, Effect Area 1, vertical 0, MP3.  Chance to inflict Undead or Death Sentence
Dark + Ice = White Death - MA * 4 (MA + 50%), range 3, Effect Area 2, Vert 2, MP3.  Inflicts Sleep.

Rad:
Light - Spirit Surge - MA * 5 (MA + 45%) Range 5, Effect Area 0, Vertical 3, MP 2, Inflict Confusion
Lit  - Shock - MA * 2 (MA + 70)%) Range 3, Effect Area 0, Vertical 10, MP 2, Inflict Stop or Don't Act or Don't Move
Fire - Burn - MA * 6 (MA + 50%) Range 3, Effect Area 1, Vertical 3, MP 2, Chance to inflict Haste
Wind - Gale - Dmg_Random(1...4)* MA (For now PA...) Range 4, Effect Area 4, Vertical 2, (linear attack), MP 2
Fire + Wind = Flash Fire.  MA * 4 (MA + 50%), range 4 linear, vert 2.  No status.
Lit + Light = Smite - MA * 6 (MA + 90%), Range 4, Effect Area 0.  Chance to inflict Dead.  

~




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Lasting Dawn has changed alot of the generic base jobs for Mercenaries so that they have new uses  / redefined roles

such as Thief = Traveler and
Archer = New Skillset that can inflict statuses with arrows

any ideas for what Wizards can do to make them stand out as a new job?
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Post by: dwib on November 17, 2008, 02:14:01 AM
make them into some sort of necromancer? they don't really look human anyway and giving them the elemental spirits (from skeletons) among a few other moves would maintain an elemental-magic class. maybe it'd be a way to give dark holy to a job class as well?
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 02:32:40 AM
Dark Holy more or less still belongs to the enemies, also a Necromancer could be done... but with no one joining you and the like, it loses a bit of it's... use.
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 02:51:46 AM
Dark/Holy Symbolist could be good name for the Wizard/Priest. He/She uses symbols and the like to cast magic on its enemies, but more variety.

Fire Spells should be Burn, Burn 2/3, Mimic Ifrit or Inferno
Ice Spells should be Freeze, Freeze 2/3, Mimic Shiva or Star Chill
Bolt Spells should be Shock, Shock 2/3, Mimic Ramuh or Pulse

Just some ideas.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 02:57:37 AM
Those are just name changes though, aren't they? What would the said moves do? (you've now intrigued me...)
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Post by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 03:01:31 AM
Hrmm

What about a magic system like Vagrant Story?

magic is cast instantly, but can be blocked and miss just like physical attacks

1 spell per element

many elements

different elements have different functions

Holy has good range, weak damage

Dark has heavy damage, weak range

Fire has a chance to hit more than once (more fire spells %)

Ice (Water?) can slow

Earth can Don't Move

etc etc
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 03:03:58 AM
I wanted them to be more deadly, so here it goes.

Burn- Inflicts excellently HUGE damage, but hastes all effected (at a % chance).

Freeze- Inflicts Slow, while dealing moderate damage, nearly 2/3's of Burn

Shock- Inflicts Don't Act OR Don't Move OR Stop, while dealing minor damage, 1/3's of Burn.

I see these may be overpowered, but seems pretty interesting. I wanted Burn to have a "HP loss per turn of Burn," but there is only poison, and that doesn't make sense. Shock, in real life, stuns people. But to make it thoroughly balanced, i made it do little damage. Freeze is easy...

Dark Symbolist has many damage symbols and little healing,
Holy Symbolist has many healing symbols and little damage,
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 03:07:26 AM
Oh I love both of them!! But what could be used as a healthy medium... those are all extremely interesting and possible ideas, and now that Mercenaries represents Vagrant Story a bit more with only two characters, it could be a Very healthy change... what do you fellows think of it?
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 03:10:05 AM
Once u pack the enemy with Wizards and the like, your screwed.
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Post by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 03:14:43 AM
I agree with Shock  / Freeze / Burn concepts

it'd make them more interesting to face, that's forsure

are those supposed to be 0 CT MP cost spells?
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 03:16:31 AM
It would make Mages more useful late game... and it wouldn't be a burden to have a secondary with such... so this is an agreed upon idea, then?
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 03:17:14 AM
Of course i agree, i came up with the concepts :).

Need any more ideas just ask. I can come up with them in a max of 30 minutes, Minimum 2 minutes :0
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Post by: dwib on November 17, 2008, 03:25:42 AM
the only problem i have with the vagrant story idea is the possibility of fire elementals hitting twice, as that makes Rad's double ice/fire/bolt totally overshadowed. Otherwise it sounds excellent! Maybe fire could be the only element with an effect radius? Because fire spreads etc. etc.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 03:29:43 AM
That's why I'm going with Shock, Freeze, Burn, I agree with that, I wouldn't make anything hit twice but Rad's Double Magic, as it is a focal plot point.
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 04:03:27 AM
But what will the name of the Wizard be renamed to? Stay Wizard, my idea of symbolist, or something else?
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 04:27:53 AM
Wizard, Symbolist, or... something else, since they're taking a more... Vagrant Story role, would they have a name similar to such?
Not knowing much about the game I wouldn't guess a lot, though I know magic is learned through Grimoire's what  would symbolize that though...? What class name that isn't too long winded be proper...
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Post by: Clockwork Seal on November 17, 2008, 04:37:02 AM
Possibly Cantor for priest?  I'm also having a hard time coming up with one for wizard.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 04:52:22 AM
Cantor, very archaic... I really like it! Of course we also need to think up any new skills for a Priest, but do Priests really need new skills? Unlike Black Magic spells, there spells all have a semblance of use.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 05:03:08 AM
Actually talking with Asmo brings up a very interesting point... Magic's power would need to be extremly weakened if it has no CT, he made up a slight chart of importance which was quite interesting.

Quote
[12:11] <Asmo> the big 3 properties are range, CT and damage
[12:11] <Lydyn> Exactly. I'd rather do 100 damage to someone than 10 damage to five guys.
[12:11] <Asmo> i'd rank them 1. CT, 2. Damage and 3. Range
[12:11] <Asmo> magic is going to excel only at 3 and AOE which is probably the 5th ranked property


As it stands it would need nerfed considerably, or else it would simply be too powerful, of course only a few spells could have AoE or status effects, this is a rather demanding part of such, and if it is ignored it could lend to imbalance, now, should we test them first? Or should we find a way of  "perfect balance" before we do such? Of course things on paper often don't turn out as good as they do in practice...  or some such saying.
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Post by: Jacob31593 on November 17, 2008, 09:59:48 AM
i liked the necromancer idea better, is it possible to make a spell that causes raise/traitor/undead ? that would be beast
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 03:22:47 PM
Necromancer has been toiled with and if it would be put in, it would be a special character, not a generic, also Traitor in a 2 person game?!  Heh, I have no way to stop the game's inviting features.
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Post by: Clockwork Seal on November 17, 2008, 05:25:19 PM
hmm...

perhaps 'invoker' for wizard?
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 07:05:38 PM
Invoker... very dark, very Vagrant Story like, I like it! Cantor and Invoker then!


Voldemort, Asmo, do I love you both, more so than ever! These two fantastic men, managed to come up with the perfect idea to balance Magic against Swordsmanship! There will be eight spells (plus one hidden skill) in the Wizard's grimoire, each one with it's varied and useful purpose! The way to maintain and balance this is with Range, Accuracy, and Damage. The formula used will be MA * Y (MA + X%)
This gives us a lot of leeway to make each skill stand out, as well as give them each a reason to use them... here is the preliminary spell list.

Burn - MA * 5 (MA + 50%) Range 3, Effect Area 1, Vertical 3,  MP 8, Chance to inflict Haste- The most powerful of the Invoker's spellbook, yet also one of the most inaccurate. It's power is augmented in it's spread damage.

Freeze - MA * 3 (MA + 40%) Range 4, Effect Area 1, Vertical 1, MP 6, Inflict Slow- It's power lies not in it's damage but in it's ability to slow opponents, as well as it's top of the line Range. It's cost is cheap, and even one hit could turn the tide.

Shock - MA * 2 (MA + 70)%) Range 3, Effect Area 0, Vertical 10, MP 15, Inflict Stop or Don't Act or Don't Move- As one can plainly see, Shock's power lies completely in the status it *can* do, it is the highest vertical of the spells (of  course! How can lightning Have a vertical?!)

Tremor - MA * 3 (MA + 50%) Range 0, Effect Area 2, Vertical 0, MP 12 - The earth rumbles and shakes underneath the opponents collapsing here and there. The power of this lies in it's DO range, it causes no status effect.

Gale - Dmg_Random(1...4)* MA (For now PA...) Range 4, Effect Area 4, Vertical 2, (linear attack), MP 4 - A truly unique attack, with a gust of wind blowing forth from the caster, Pushes all enemies back, in a straight line.

Engulf - MA * 4 (MA + 60%) Range 2, Effect Area 1, Vertical 4, MP 10, Inflict
Poison - Many large bubbles appear and explode over the targets, it power lies in it's relatively high damage and it's guaranteed poison.
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 07:15:03 PM
1.Will the spells have different levels or stay one level throughout the game? (Burn 1/2/3 and Inferno)

2.Will Rad still have a charge time on his double magic? Of course the Invoker class will be used more just because of it's instant cast.

Cantor... i'll come up with some ideas and name changes for his heals and buffers later.
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Post by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 07:18:41 PM
I will throw in some suggestions for possible multi purpose spells

(Straight name rips from Vagrant Story)

Spirit Surge - Long Range Holy single target, innacurate, can be a healing spell instead of damage (Circle is a great effect.. maybe)

Dark Chant - Low damage, low range, can Death Sentence (Dark Whisper graphic)

Gaea Strike - Earth Damage, looks alot like Mimic Titan... innacurate AOE spell, chance to don't move

Explosion - Non-Elemental, INNACURATE! AOE MA based
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Post by: Clockwork Seal on November 17, 2008, 07:28:53 PM
I'm not sure I'm reading the formula notation right here.  MA*5(MA+50%) seems to me like MA*5*MA+50%MA, or MA*5*3MA/2  Which all multiplies together to 15MA^2/2.  Which would do 270 damage with 6 MA.

Or does this notation actually work out to 5(3MA/2), and the parentheses stand for something other than multiplication of the contained set?  This would be 45 damage at 6 MA, which is less crazy (though still rather quite powerful)
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 07:31:26 PM
Oy, my apologies...  I didn't explain that right at all... The %'s are the chance to hit, it's going to be the Invoker's... niche, so to speak. Their spells will be a tad inaccurate, but they have no CT, and are relatively all purpose.
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Post by: Archael on November 17, 2008, 07:37:08 PM
yeah... think geomancer, but with a built-in chance to miss, M-Evadeable, and MP Cost, and different elements, and with different purpose spells

think.. HURRICANE
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Post by: Clockwork Seal on November 17, 2008, 08:03:50 PM
Ah, that explains it, then.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 08:26:41 PM
Oh, I had forgotten to mention! The way this new system will work (without the additional spells) are the Rod's growing progressively stronger in MA such as weapons grow in WP. The last rod is planned to have 14 MA, while the only class that can equip these will be Invoker's. Now as it stands, there is the danger of Secondaries, which have not been addressed yet, but we will get all the kinks out of it, I hope. With this also, Rad's Double Magic will not lose it's use. Since he is the only special character who can equip Rod's (and a myriad of other things as well)
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 08:48:36 PM
Burn - MA * 6 (MA + 50%) Range 3, Effect Area 1, Vertical 3,  MP 8, Chance to inflict Haste- The most powerful of the Invoker's spellbook, yet also one of the most inaccurate. It's power is augmented in it's spread damage.

Freeze - MA * 3 (MA + 40%) Range 4, Effect Area 1, Vertical 1, MP 6, Inflict Slow- It's power lies not in it's damage but in it's ability to slow opponents, as well as it's top of the line Range. It's cost is cheap, and even one hit could turn the tide.

Shock - MA * 2 (MA + 70)%) Range 3, Effect Area 0, Vertical 10, MP 15, Inflict Stop or Don't Act or Don't Move- As one can plainly see, Shock's power lies completely in the status it *can* do, it is the highest vertical of the spells (of  course! How can lightning Have a vertical?!)

Tremor - MA * 3 (MA + 50%) Range 0, Effect Area 2, Vertical 0, MP 12 - The earth rumbles and shakes underneath the opponents collapsing here and there. The power of this lies in it's DO range, it causes no status effect.

Gale - Dmg_Random(1...4)* MA (For now PA...) Range 4, Effect Area 4, Vertical 2, (linear attack), MP 14 - A truly unique attack, with a gust of wind blowing forth from the caster, Pushes all enemies back, in a straight line.

Engulf - MA * 4 (MA + 60%) Range 2, Effect Area 1, Vertical 4, MP 10, Inflict
Poison - Many large bubbles appear and explode over the targets, it power lies in it's relatively high damage and it's guaranteed poison.

Spirit Surge - MA * 5 (MA + 45%) Range 5, Effect Area 0, Vertical 3, MP 18, Inflict Confusion - A surge of Holy energy comes forth from the user, inflicting the unit with conflicting thoughts and emotions. Very inaccurate, but very powerful, the longest range of the Grimiores.

Dark Chant - MA * 2 (MA + 65%) Range 2, Effect Area 0, Vertical 5, MP 8, Inflict 25% Charm, - The targets soul is infused with a lesser dark spirit, that bids servitude to the Invoker, taking possession of the target.

Explosion - MA * 5 (MA + 30%) Range 4, Effect Area 2, Vertical 2, MP 15 - The Invoker's most destructive spell, as well as the most inaccurate, from a distance the Invoker let's fly a large explosion.

That is the preliminary set, each Element and many different effects, hopefully they seem unique to one another. If possible Voldemort might have a Test video of these out tonight (maybe...) if not then, tommorow. Unless we see some crucial flaw in out plans.
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Post by: dwib on November 17, 2008, 09:28:44 PM
Quote from: "LastingDawn"
There will be eight spells (plus one hidden skill) in the Wizard's grimoire.


This wasn't quite clear, but were you that saying the Invoker's skillset will be named "Grimoire"? If you didn't, then I suggest it anyhow!  :)
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 09:36:57 PM
Yep, I did...? I think? Well there will now be 10 spells (one hidden spell) which I want to keep secret as it is... well a secret skill. But I am glad to see that you like the changes, I can only hope our Rod = Magic Power,  idea works well enough, that and secondaries could be rather... well come to think of it, Time Mages uses both Rods, and Staves, and Summoner's use primarily Rods, so all in all, the things that would be secondarily carrying isn't too deadly. They will need to be changed appropriately as well though.
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 10:33:29 PM
Come to think of it, Blind 2 animation could be used as Dark Explosion. Makes sense to me to make it a enemy only skill :), but really accurate and devastating.

Cantor suggestions

Healing Voice- Heals a single target unit next to the Cantor for a substantial amount of HP

Healing Breath- Heals a large area for meager HP

Hymn of Encouragement- Inflicts haste on an area around him (EFFECT 1)

Hymn of Life- Gives new life to the dead (raise effect and animation)

Hymn of Death- Low chance of inflicting Dead/Death Sentence

Hymn of Insanity- Causes meager damage and inflicts confuse

Repetitive Hymn- Inflicts Berserk in an area around the target

Hymn of the Gods- Deals very high holy damage at moderate accuracy, but has chance to give the targeted God's Blessing (Protect/Shell/Haste/Reraise) (all)

Hymn of Darkness- Deals moderate dark damage at moderate accuracy, but has chance to give the targeted Dark Curse (Blind/Confuse/Poison/Silence/Death Sentence/Don't Move/Don't Act/Stop/Slow) (/=Independent)

Some ideas since he is a singer, or am i wrong o.O?
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 17, 2008, 11:09:50 PM
Indeed,  quite interesting ideas... but what's being forgotten (not that you could have known...) that they will be keeping Protect and Shell at least, that's their claim to fame, of course that's not to say it can't be done in a very roundabout way... your song ideas, are quite excellent! And I will look forward to refining and testing those ideas.
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Post by: boomkick on November 17, 2008, 11:17:41 PM
Lol i forgot about that

Hymn of Shielding- Inflicts Protect

Hymn of Resistance- Inflicts Shell

There we go :).
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 18, 2008, 01:22:44 AM
Bah! Well unfortunately I made a dire mistake and there was an error in the patcher which lead me to believe that "heaven sent" Formula Actually existed, unfortunately it really does not, hopefully we can get one of the ASM scholars to help us on this...

Basically until I do actually get that formula, the Invoker really won't be... really there.
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Post by: LastingDawn on November 24, 2008, 03:23:42 PM
First post updated, if everything goes right, I should have their formula a bit later today.
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Post by: Archael on November 24, 2008, 03:38:42 PM
good news then

I will be back on chat after waterpolo (ends at 6PM)
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Post by: dwib on November 24, 2008, 10:17:17 PM
Quote from: "Voldemort7"
waterpolo


fuckin badass
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Post by: Archael on November 24, 2008, 10:26:52 PM
I saw the updated abilities list

looks good

they will have lots to do in many different situations
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Post by: PX_Timefordeath on December 06, 2008, 03:58:49 PM
LD, have you replaced the priest yet? If not I could probably come up with one.
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Post by: The Damned on December 06, 2008, 06:21:09 PM
Priest is now Cantor, which seems to be a mix of Bard and Priest.

Cantor just doesn't have its own thread at the moment, but it seems largely done.
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Post by: LastingDawn on December 06, 2008, 06:41:09 PM
Correct, I will get to that, very soon. There are a few problems to address with that.
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Post by: PX_Timefordeath on December 06, 2008, 06:50:15 PM
Ehh... i was thinking of making the priest a more physical class with minor white magic, with two flails/spears, but I'll wait for the thread to pop up
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Post by: The Damned on December 12, 2008, 01:45:44 AM
Okay, while I'm around and since I bumped Gambler, I might as well ask something that's been bothering: Since Invoker is supposed to have all eight elements, is Engulf the Water Element? I'm asking because it just says "Poison", but there's no such Element (outside of FF7 and FF8 IIRC) and since it involves bubbles....

Also, I'm not sure if Voldemort7 told you or you already know, but currently 50% Knockback formula for Gust doesn't seem like it will take an Element (though that may just be the slots that it's already on; accursed Throw Stone).
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Post by: LastingDawn on December 12, 2008, 01:53:40 AM
Well the slots... the slots are the main trouble, I will probably need to retool gust.

Also yes, Deluge is Water, the only thing I could think fitting for Water and being in it for so long would be the after effects which would be pneumonia, in this case, poison.
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Post by: The Damned on December 12, 2008, 03:39:24 AM
Oh no. I had figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure.

(You might want to change it in the first post, especially since it's still listed as "Engulf", not "Deluge", which of course sounds watery [or at least liquid-y].)
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 12, 2008, 03:53:38 AM
silence might also be a good choice, as I for one think i'd have a hard time concentrating while simultainously evacuating my lungs of water. Of course, it always bothered that the water element exists at all, since when does being splashed with water deal damage? I mean, if it were a high pressure blast of water then yes, that would hurt, but that would be physical damage anway, right?
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Post by: Dormin Jake on December 12, 2008, 04:44:27 AM
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"
silence might also be a good choice, as I for one think i'd have a hard time concentrating while simultainously evacuating my lungs of water. Of course, it always bothered that the water element exists at all, since when does being splashed with water deal damage? I mean, if it were a high pressure blast of water then yes, that would hurt, but that would be physical damage anway, right?

As would Earth and Wind.  I suppose it does physical damage to humans, because that's all it really can do.  It's a bit more hazardous to, say, a Bomb's health, which actually does involve an elemental reaction (being extinguished), or even some animal that can't swim that might be swept away by it.

I like Silence for water, too.  True, nothing really fits, I'm just inherently biased toward Silence.
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Post by: boomkick on December 12, 2008, 05:22:12 AM
how about sleep for water?
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Post by: Dormin Jake on December 12, 2008, 05:28:49 AM
Because cold water in the face cancels sleep, as far as real world applications go?

I kid. 8)
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Post by: boomkick on December 12, 2008, 05:35:18 AM
Drowning someone causes them to go unconscious, no matter how cold the water is.
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Post by: LastingDawn on December 12, 2008, 11:51:55 AM
Well keep in mind everyone, Silence is gone, replaced by Addle, Sleep a very powerful status, and Poison had it's power increased to never wear off, forcing one to die, or to cure it.
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Post by: boomkick on December 12, 2008, 02:47:57 PM
Poison is for balance, but somewhat unfitting for a water element attack.
Sleep fits, but is strong.
Addle may be for something else.

Its up to you LD.
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Post by: Dormin Jake on December 12, 2008, 03:01:51 PM
As Captain Planet shows us, pollution can certainly be found in water.  So I can totally dig it.

Also, recycle!
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Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 15, 2008, 04:58:31 PM
Heart!
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Post by: DarthPaul on December 15, 2008, 06:40:38 PM
Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart! Captain Planet he's our hero duhduhduh duh duh duh zero.
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Post by: Dormin Jake on December 16, 2008, 01:03:25 AM
Quote from: "darthpaul"
Earth, Fire, Wind, Water, Heart! Captain Planet he's our hero duhduhduh duh duh duh zero.

"gonna take pollution down to zero" duh.
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Post by: DarthPaul on December 16, 2008, 01:05:02 AM
Thanks <_< >_> I'm i n your space bubble btw.
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Post by: Dormin Jake on December 16, 2008, 01:57:30 AM
Quote from: "darthpaul"
Thanks <_< >_> I'm i n your space bubble btw.

Whatev.  I'm getting used to that sort of thing.

  :oops:
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Post by: The Damned on December 16, 2008, 08:53:34 PM
Quote from: "boomkick"
Poison is for balance, but somewhat unfitting for a water element attack.


Poison fits, but why it would fit might be rather esoteric. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_drowning) Just think of poison as the constantly coughing up water (or, rather, trying to before the link happens).

I would actually say that Death Sentence is more fitting, but since I know that Lasting Dawn is currently using Death Sentence for only class (due to how the AI currently reacts to it), Poison will have to do.
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Post by: LastingDawn on January 07, 2009, 10:38:38 PM
Hmm... well now that this is an actual possibility, I see some glaring miscalculations on my part. The MA * Y values are a bit too low to warrant use at the high levels, visa vi, the same problem Black Magic presented.

Level 5 Invoker will have roughly... 8 MA, 6 + 2 (from Rod) = 8

Now the attack of it's most powerful spell is MA * 6, making their best spell 42 damage at first, that's nothing to scoff at. But as level rises and Rod's MA takes off, their natural MA will probably reach 16, while their most powerful Rod gives them 14 MA. 30 MA in this case, at level 99, their "most powerful skill" will only do 180, of course if we take Elemental Boost into equation that damage would be 225, now 225 for an 8 mp instant of 1 effect area, with 80% chance to hit (not taking ME, into consideration) does that Really sound powerful now to warrant use?

If not we will have to look over all of the MA + and MA * planned for this set, execution is now possible, therefore we should try as hard as we can to keep this class balanced the whole game through.
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Post by: boomkick on January 08, 2009, 12:13:16 AM
Why not just make a second version of each spell that is much stronger but needs CT. Like Scorch, Statis, and Jolt (or Burn 2, Freeze 2, Shock 2, etc).
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Post by: LastingDawn on January 08, 2009, 03:04:29 AM
That was the programmers solution as well, the trouble with that are skills that become invalid over time, which is one thing I do not want to have happen. As it stands CT would completely break the point of the Invoker, it is not the best way to make this plan work.
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Post by: Dormin Jake on January 08, 2009, 06:56:20 AM
What about using formula 5F Dmg_[[MA+Y]/2*MA]?  Such quadratic formulas scale much better than linear ones, as MA is always multiplied by itself rather than with a fixed number that can be far surpassed in scale.  One problem with a quadratic formula, however, is that Y value bonuses would have less of an effect later in the game, bringing the "weaker" spells relatively close to the "stronger" ones.

At 8 MA, with Y=0 for Shock and =6 for Burn:
Shock deals 32 damage
Burn deals 56 damage
Burn looks capable of one-shotting, though Shock deals some pretty respectable damage (twice as much as compared to the current MA*2 formula)

At 30 MA, with Y=0 for Shock and =6 for Burn:
Shock deals 450 damage
Burn deals 540 damage
Both are thus capable of some pretty danged decent damage, only Shock also carries a debilitating status ailment with it.

Obviously, stats can be adjusted, though things still might not perfectly match the vision you had for these skills.  But quadratic is the way to go if you want decent scaling.
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Post by: LastingDawn on January 09, 2009, 07:54:28 PM
Hmm... I hadn't thought of that, that might be the way to make it work, rest assured though, that the most these are meant to deal is anywhere from 100-350 damage, since they are instant, but I think that formula looks right, but I wonder if Razele will be kind enough to add an MA+X% on this... hmm...
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Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2009, 08:23:13 PM
Is it not a problem that those formulas aren't faith-based like the other formulas, LastingDawn?
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Post by: LastingDawn on January 09, 2009, 08:40:58 PM
As much as I would like it to be based on Faith, I wonder if that could actuallly be done, of course if I recall, it is only a single change, I might be wrong though, it probably should be based on faith.
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Post by: boomkick on February 06, 2009, 04:11:06 PM
Just a question, but do you already have their secret skill?
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Post by: dwib on February 07, 2009, 01:21:32 AM
i believe explosion is the secret skill
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Post by: LastingDawn on February 07, 2009, 05:40:19 AM
That's not quite it... as of yet I can't think of a special skill for Invoker, feel free to brainstorm though, since my own thoughts really don't work too well.
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Post by: PX_Timefordeath on February 07, 2009, 05:50:57 AM
Shadow Flare. 'Nuff said.
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Post by: LastingDawn on February 07, 2009, 05:53:09 AM
There is a pattern with the Invoker's spells that fits it in  line with Vagrant Story. The spell names and their functions are supposed to be similar to them. If you happen to know of any extremely powerful spells from Vagrant Story, and think up an appropriate FFT effect, feel free.
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Post by: boomkick on February 07, 2009, 07:35:41 AM
Bloody Sin- Grand Cross
Apocalypse- Shock
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Post by: Archael on February 07, 2009, 04:21:24 PM
Bloody Sin is a huge non-elemental HP damage AOE spell

Apocalypse is a strong dark elemental HP damage spell
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Post by: LastingDawn on February 07, 2009, 04:54:40 PM
Bloody Sin it is, now what's a fitting effect for such a spell, you fellows think?
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Post by: Archael on February 07, 2009, 05:36:36 PM
Bloody Sin is (like many other spells in VS) an attack that attempts to hit many different parts of the target's body, resulting in more than one hit

each hit has it's own chance to hit, and the entire thing hits only one person

not sure how that would translate, but perhaps a 5-hit spell with a very fast animation

of course the ideal would be to have 1 big spell effect call up many different numbers on the same target

but as far as I know, no formula (or method) can do that currently

so you are stuck with having 1 effect fire per hit
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Post by: Shade on February 07, 2009, 08:03:24 PM
So it should be a big are spell amd when there is peole inside of it all of them get's five hit's.
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Post by: dwib on February 07, 2009, 10:10:34 PM
Use formula 5E with an X value of 4 to get 5 hits based off of MA
it shows the animation 5 times as well

i'm working on finding an animation for this that looks grand while not taking forever
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Post by: Archael on February 07, 2009, 10:28:18 PM
Quote from: "dwib"
Use formula 5E with an X value of 4 to get 5 hits based off of MA
it shows the animation 5 times as well

i'm working on finding an animation for this that looks grand while not taking forever

yeah exactly my thoughts

long ass anims x 5 is a bad idea
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Post by: dwib on February 08, 2009, 12:08:06 AM
level 2 ultima and hurricane are the best choices so far...
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Post by: boomkick on February 08, 2009, 02:30:02 PM
Circle doesn't work?
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Post by: LastingDawn on February 08, 2009, 03:27:01 PM
Circle doesn't display damage... I don't think. It needs to be something that looks relatively fitting to a move, called "Bloody Sin", hmm...
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Post by: dwib on February 08, 2009, 04:00:52 PM
circle displays damage but it only displays the animation and damage to one of the enemies so it can't be used for an AoE attack...
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Post by: boomkick on February 08, 2009, 04:19:51 PM
Blind 2?
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Post by: Archael on February 08, 2009, 04:43:31 PM
Quote from: "dwib"
circle displays damage but it only displays the animation and damage to one of the enemies so it can't be used for an AoE attack...


BLoody Sin would be 5 hit on 1 target

IE not AOE
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Post by: dwib on February 08, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
Quote from: "Voldemort"
Bloody Sin is a huge non-elemental HP damage AOE spell


i was going off of this my bad. circle animation could work then
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Post by: Archael on February 08, 2009, 05:19:34 PM
circle is fairly fast right?
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Post by: dwib on February 08, 2009, 05:35:46 PM
yeah it is. it looks a little like a recolored holy explosion i guess is one way to describe it
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Post by: Archael on February 08, 2009, 05:44:03 PM
Holy Sin is an explosion of light so that works pretty well
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Post by: LastingDawn on February 08, 2009, 06:00:21 PM
Circle it is then, I'll get more work on this done, when I return tommorow.
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Post by: Archael on February 08, 2009, 06:43:50 PM
If you send me the ISO with the custom Invoker formula I can make a video of it in action
Title: Re: Invoker Job Discussion (Update on First Post)
Post by: LastingDawn on July 30, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
Resurrection!

6 more skills for Invoker... hmm, that is a bit tricky, especially since they are only meant to exhibit all of the elements, but I'm sure you'll all come up with something that's workable. Keep in mind that themes can be thought of and that these abilities (the ones seen on the front page) are not final by any means. Feel free to give your ideas on these
Title: Re: Invoker Job Discussion (Update on First Post)
Post by: LastingDawn on August 22, 2010, 02:36:17 PM
Philsov has supplied ideas needed for the synergy skillsets needed for this class. Which is updated in the first post. Feedback for the decided upon skills is appreciated.