Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Patches => FFT Arena => Topic started by: silentkaster on August 08, 2016, 07:57:10 PM

Title: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 08, 2016, 07:57:10 PM
I'm getting a sticky on this post.

If you have ideas and/or see areas where balance could be improved or altered in a positive way, feel free to post here. It would be better if you...

1. Say what the issue is
2. Explain the issue in as much detail as possible without overdoing it
3. Explain why it needs to be changed
4. Give possible solutions or changes that could help.

You don't have to format it, but just answer those four statements. Counterarguments can also be posted here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on August 08, 2016, 10:13:50 PM
Meteor Rod needs a buff
It's too weak.
It's can be weaker than comet and it's a proc.
MA*15-18 but not affected by MA Up like Murasame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 08, 2016, 10:36:19 PM
Meteor Rod needs a buff
It's too weak.
It's can be weaker than comet and it's a proc.
MA*15-18 but not affected by MA Up like Murasame.

Simple Fix. Still affected by faith, can't be boosted. Max Damage from Wizard is probably 200 on a useable build. How can this be abused?? (Would like a answer.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 12:28:23 AM
I would rather up the proc rate than change the skill itself. It wasn't OP in 1.39c when it was still bahamut (exact same power and boostability) and the proc chance was secretly 50% in the patcher, so I don't understand why we changed that in the first place.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on August 09, 2016, 12:48:37 AM
My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 09, 2016, 12:53:20 AM
My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).

I'd be fine with that at a 20% proc
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 09, 2016, 08:25:28 AM
Hooray.  My favourite thread is back.  Time to pollute the thread with another brain dump.

I had the opportunity to read through every change introduced in patch 1.40 while updating the team design tool.  Here I would like to comment on the changes I have questions about.  Bear in mind that I have not attended any Discord discussions, so the only information available to me is what is on this message board.

First, the needless and benign.

Renaming

Next, a few eyebrows that were raised about equipment balancing.

Equipment

And now for some skills.

Skills

And finally, for those who have not yet fallen asleep, some musings on jobs.

Jobs

My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).

I like this.  It is thematically consistent with Comet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 02:49:42 PM
Responses:

Lay on Hands:
I found it difficult to make an unfaith raise because I would have to copy the faith/innocent routines, which yake up a lot of space. Furthermore, I feel like that balances it because you either have a paladin focusing on offense, or one focusing on support.

Regenerator:
This reaction triggers on countergrasp, not damage. Steals and such will trigger it. But I think it could be moved to another class if time mage gets more stuff, because time mage is already seeming to be very good.

Proc Rates:
I agree here. These procs are too many, and don't make their respective weapons unique at all. Just another low proc rate weapon that has a chance to one shot. I mentioned what I thought about meteor rod already, and I kinda feel the same way about the others.

Also remember that we sometimes move things to other classes because they would be too good on that one class, aka to make them less easily accessible to a certain class. This is why we moved overwhelm to bard/dancer, because it was a bit too good as a grab and go for lancers. If we move something like 1/3 of mp to time mages, it might be a bit too much since they are already fast (11-12 SP without trying) and can cast haste/slow 2 at 1/3 the MP Cost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 09, 2016, 03:12:59 PM
What if we give time mage short charge and summoners keep 1/3 of MP?

My reasoning is that firstly, it gives the TMs and summoners their respective support abilities and would even out the JP cost. Secondly these changes should extenuate their strengths as a class. Time Mages are fast and with the proper setup with short charge they become efficient disrupt/support units. Summoners have a high MP pool and with 1/3 of MP you can add on some high HP equips to make up for their low HP. And with move-mp up and/or MP Switch summoners are more viable as casters.

That's just me. Feel free to disagree if you want, it's only a thought I had since I read Gaignun's post
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 03:32:15 PM
Responses to Gaignun:

Renaming section- I'm fine with 3-10. Only reason I wouldn't want to change 1-2 is because they do mainly what they did in Vanilla (Oil makes you weak to all elements instead of just fire, but the transition and the name makes it pretty easy to bridge the gap) and I think changing them might confuse newer players who have played through Vanilla. I'm more for not changing things where they don't need to be changed. While Bizen Boat and Ramia Harp are also from Vanilla, their purposes have changed so I'm okay with changing them since they do something much different than they did previously.

Equipment-
5. Chakra Band- Yes, it is still used actually. Eight speed monks are still viable and the only ones able to equip them are Monks and Mimes. I see this going on a more defensive Monk, like a dancer, or a more offensive Monk like a Grand Crosser with Equip X. Since Mimes can equip shields, it can also go on a Mime without too much penalty and it still provides plenty of Status Protection. It's still a good choice, but not the obvious choice like it was in 1.39.

6. Only thing that I can agree with you on is Muramasa being a one hit "death" and it's only equippable by a class that has 3 move and not much ability to improve upon said move. Black Staff's Bio 3 I've always thought was meh, but it can be attractive I guess, especially if it procs Undead. But other than that, these weapons serve purposes. For example, Silver Bow is probably one of the bows that a Samurai could arguably be better with than the Archer and requires 70/70 to be used potentially well. Meteor Rod encourages 2S mages which also might need to be 70/70 and having just one is not a 1HKO.

So...IDK. Increasing proc chances could be alright, but I'd like to see them in action a bit more as they are and see if people avoid or want to select them.

Skills-
4. Death- Would probably be okay with it being on Scholar, but not Oracle. I could see the new White Magic, Short Charge, Death Oracles running around and it makes me cringe.

8. Balance- Not a fan of it going to Scholar, and I don't mind it remaining where it is as Time Magic is a good place for it, especially with Crit Quick remaining as a reaction in Time Magic. However, would be okay with it going to Oracle or (dare I say it?) Lancer as an ability besides Jump. (I expect nobody agrees with me here, but let's face it, you can't argue that the "Jump" skillset is the least diversified of every skill set.)

Jobs-
1/2. What makes a Priest so attractive is the skillset, not the job itself. So if using a priest, I think that most people would be using it because they can get White Magic and decent MA. I don't mind them being four move, though I don't mind them being three move, either. However, I totally disagree on the Flails being transferred to Scholar (and while you didn't say that outright, you suggested it by using moves from their skillset). They can equip the Prismatic Rod and Poison Rod, both of which well outshine their respective flails and cover more ground. It's true that Priests don't get a lot of use out of them, but I guess it is there so that you can have a melee priest without having to buff PA too much. The four move at the moment complements this and I'm sure we'll see at least a couple people make priests like this.

3. Cannot agree here, either. Monks are great PA attackers but their equipment is limited. They can't equip a real weapon (bags which means if the AI derps and goes for a bag whack, and we've all seen it happen more than once, you might be losing a turn), they can't equip anything but bands and clothes (where real choices have to be made now) and because of these, it's a fine balance now making a monk. I would be more for lowering their base HP before touching their PA because while they are a good choice, and arguably the best choice, for many PA builds, they're simply not versatile enough to lower their PA in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 09, 2016, 04:48:35 PM
I'm fine with Meteor dealing 200 flat damage.  It's certainly much more interesting than simply being a Bahamut clone.

All the things

Heya, Gaignun, nice to see you posting again.  Here's my responses to what you brought-up:




Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on August 09, 2016, 06:10:21 PM
I want to point out that we only have 3 spots left for new weapons. So if we are adding M Bag, instead of adding M Bag and then giving Rune Blade another purpose, it is probably preferable to simply replace Rune Blade. That being said, I will respond to a few things



Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on August 10, 2016, 06:12:47 AM
From now on I will attempt to do briefings of suggestions that happen within the FFT Arena Discord channel (https://discord.gg/0yVBfKgVSrUfnnYc), whether they are about an existing or new feature.

Here are today's notable suggestions:

- Crits or knockback removal
Knockbacks caused by crits are generally not desired, especially with 2 swords. The crits themselves may not be desired either, as they prevent spell procs (not status procs) from happening (but don't quote me on that; I've just never seen it happen).

- Combining Power and Mind Ruin into one Ruin that deplete both PA and MA by 1 point, and possibly moving the Ruin abilities to another skillset
It's difficult to make the Power/Mind Ruin work without heavy dedication (they suffer from the same problem as the old stat break dances did). Thieves have better ability options to choose from. It has been suggested to move the Ruins to the Squire or Ninja.

- Instead of replacing Rune Blade with "M Bag", P Bag would take Rune Blade's properties instead of its current Always: Regen and Immune: Poison. There has been no discussion about what will become of the Rune Blade after this.
No need for two Auto-Regen items, the Light Robe is enough. In addition, we have added 4 new items to protect against Poison in 140 (P Bag, Light Robe, 108 Gems, Vanish Mantle), plus one new ability to dispel it (Misogi). Not to mention Poison Bow and Bio being repurposed to inflict "MP Poison" instead.

- Monster idea: Red Chocobo to be the "Phoenix" of Arena, with Initial Reraise and a 2 AoE Revive ability (which would be auto target)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 10, 2016, 06:58:07 AM
Hey Gaignun, hate to trouble you, but I believe a while back you posted a potential rework of Punch Art such that its damage wouldn't be quadratic -> Punch Art becomes more accessible to non-Monks. Do you happen to remember your proposal? Obviously, without Punch Art receiving some sort of buff, Monks won't be too happy about going below 12 base PA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on August 10, 2016, 04:06:54 PM
- Combining Power and Mind Ruin into one Ruin that deplete both PA and MA by 1 point, and possibly moving the Ruin abilities to another skillset
It's difficult to make the Power/Mind Ruin work without heavy dedication (they suffer from the same problem as the old stat break dances did). Thieves have better ability options to choose from. It has been suggested to move the Ruins to the Squire or Ninja.

This I could get behind. Moving it to squire would probably be better since ninja skillset should be all about dealing damage instead of breaking stats and I don't think it would fit there well. Speaking of dance, has anyone had any success with or even used Break Dance yet? On paper, it seems to be worse than Polka Polka/Disillusion.

Quote
- Instead of replacing Rune Blade with "M Bag", P Bag would take Rune Blade's properties instead of its current Always: Regen and Immune: Poison. There has been no discussion about what will become of the Rune Blade after this.
No need for two Auto-Regen items, the Light Robe is enough. In addition, we have added 4 new items to protect against Poison in 140 (P Bag, Light Robe, 108 Gems, Vanish Mantle), plus one new ability to dispel it (Misogi). Not to mention Poison Bow and Bio being repurposed to inflict "MP Poison" instead.

Please. This needs to happen. I would love to see P Bag with Rune Blade's properties. Question though, so if Rune Blade is getting changed/shafted, what does Geomancer use now for elemental damage? C Bag/FS Bag?

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on August 10, 2016, 04:49:47 PM
To clear up confusion, I have just posted  the 140 changelog in the 1.4 thread since it was apparently nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 10, 2016, 05:11:12 PM
This I could get behind. Moving it to squire would probably be better since ninja skillset should be all about dealing damage instead of breaking stats and I don't think it would fit there well. Speaking of dance, has anyone had any success with or even used Break Dance yet? On paper, it seems to be worse than Polka Polka/Disillusion.

Please. This needs to happen. I would love to see P Bag with Rune Blade's properties. Question though, so if Rune Blade is getting changed/shafted, what does Geomancer use now for elemental damage? C Bag/FS Bag?

I'd rather see Rune Blade just return to how it was, if it can't be decided on what to do with it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on August 10, 2016, 05:27:31 PM
I'd rather see Rune Blade just return to how it was, if it can't be decided on what to do with it.

I am kinda courious how Rune blade was before. I came here in 1.39 and so i personally feel i don't have much say in this thread
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on August 10, 2016, 05:37:28 PM
Rune Blade before was 10WP, 10% W-EV and +2 MA before I believe. Or something along those lines. I dunno why it was changed in the first place, but meh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on August 10, 2016, 05:38:30 PM
I could see it being built but it be very specialized.. i would not mind seeing runeblade back like that could be intereting to make a spellsword.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 06:30:09 PM
Thank you for the feedback, everybody.  I will try to provide a few responses.


Finally, as for the most recent discord discussion,

Removing crits/knockback: Knockback is stupid fun, but I won't mind if it disappears.
Moving Ruin skills elsewhere: They certainly don't find much love on Thieves, but I think they are equally unattractive anywhere else.  We'll need to think carefully about this.
P Bag inheriting Rune Blade's properties: If we are reluctant to use further weapon slots, then sure.


Punch Art, Spin Fist
Current: (PA/2)*PA
Nonlinear: [(PA+2)/2]*PA
Linear: PA*10
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 10, 2016, 07:34:09 PM
My bad, regenerator really does trigger on HP Damage according to the wiki. I don't think anything was changed, so I was mistaken. Was probably thinking about Piety when Emmy pointed out to me I was wrong in my ASM thread. Sorry for the confusion lol.

Also, yeah we wouldn't go that far with the RSM relocation. It also has to be useful for the class we put it on as well as classes that will use the secondary. Maybe putting 1/3 of MP on time mage wouldn't be as bad as I thought, and I'm just overthinking things. But yeah, they are already a very solid class as is, and I would stray away from giving them too much stuff that would be useful for them. Shields + 9 SP are already a huge boon, and I can see the other caster classes being neglected (especially scholar, which we nerfed to the ground) due to this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 07:44:50 PM
Ah, gotcha.  So Piety has countergrasp, then?

By the way, there's a wiki?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 07:54:19 PM

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 11, 2016, 02:46:53 AM
1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered.

And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.

I hope my calculations have helped out a bit.  As they are, the elemental rods are kind of like the sisters of guns/flails: the rods' damage is roughly independent of Brave, just as the guns/flails damage are independent of PA and MA.

2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.)

True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

I'm not totally against [Priests] losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.

How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.

I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

As for the comparison between ton Monks and ton Squires, I believe Monks' higher HP, MP, SP, and access to Punch Art are well worth the loss of EV. By the numbers,

Monk (13+5 PA, 108 Gems, Attack UP):
30 effective PA, 335 HP, 98 MP, 9 SP, 10 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Poison/Sap immunity
Squire (10+8 PA, Kaiser Plate, Attack UP)
30 effective PA, 315 HP, 62 MP, 8 SP, 35 P-EV, 15 M-EV

For the cost of 25 P-EV and 15 M-EV, Monks get
The +1 SP boost alone is worth the price.  Just look at Swift Plate: 20 fewer P-EV and M-EV than Escutcheon II for +1 SP.

Dropping Monks to 12 base PA would drop their effective PA from 30 to 28, adding an extra cost of 2 PA for the above benefits.

Cross Monks getting nerfed is certainly true, but it is a price I would be willing to pay in exchange for making PA-based skills (like the new Jump) viable on other jobs without having Monks break them.

Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 11, 2016, 10:05:16 AM
Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.

For damage purposes, Dancers are just as good now at Jumping with Overwhelm and a Ryotian Silk or a high WP Sword. They only jump slower, which can be covered. (granted, you gotta focus on Jumping with the Dancer, but most use them purely for their PA anyway.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 12, 2016, 04:56:24 PM
And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.

While I see Dancer can use the PS with 12 PA, the 11 (and even 10) MA classes that can use the Rainbow Staff have skills in their primary skillset that can take advantage of added MA and/or movement that might be stacked. The Dancer does not (with the barely notable exceptions of Witch Hunt and Wiznaibus which gets boosted very small amounts comparatively with each stacking number.)

I actually always had an issue with Platinum Sword as it was just a weapon that was kinda "there." I think it at least has a place now on certain units like a support Geomancer or Paladin, but it's still not spectacular in my eyes. (Note that above 10 PA, a 2H Platinum Sword will deal more damage than a 2H Lionheart which I guess is something.)

On a side note, Berserk damage cannot be added to the Platinum Sword unless the unit is Always: Berserk. Rainbow Staff could get stronger with Berserk applied to the fighter in a fight.


True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

I would be okay with them swapping rods and flails. That's about it. Again, I'm definitely not okay with Priests giving Flails to Scholars (unless Scholars give up Rods) period. Scholars get nothing from this exchange and Priests just lose something. Even if it were another weapon that priests pick up from Scholars, it would be beneficial only to the Priest and not the Scholar if it's flails that are exchanged.

I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.
I disagree. These skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 13, 2016, 06:44:54 PM

Would somebody care to give an account for following changes in 1.40a?  These must have been debated on Discord, because they were not discussed anywhere on the forums as far as I can tell.

Quote
BASIC SKILL
- Yell: Lost MP Regen, 0 MP

YIN YANG MAGIC
- Blind --> “Douse”: 4 range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+65)%, M-Ev, reflectable, Adds: Darkness and Oil, CF and CM, 150 JP
- Blind Rage: Gained Darkness, 4 CT, Hit_F(MA+55)%
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on August 13, 2016, 08:52:45 PM
I have a geo on one of my beta test teams that uses the top 4 punch art skills pretty effectively, I think paladin (little less power tanky version), lancers (speed and/or power) or thieves (due to speed) can use those monk skills pretty well too. Also the nice thing about spin fist now is that it's smart targeting so pair it with 1 or 2 mimes and some pa stackage (sing or basic skill)........

*squires too^
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 13, 2016, 10:04:33 PM
@Gaignun: I would favour the linear formula (PA*10) a lot more than what we have currently.  We should definitely make this a thing!  We came-up with the Yell, Blind, and Blind Rage changes during the Discord 1.40a suggestions discussion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2016, 09:47:48 PM
Linear Punch Art!  As linear as FFXIII.

Were any arguments made for the Yell, Douse, and Blind Rage changes?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 15, 2016, 11:26:13 PM
Yell lost MP Regen because the AI likes to spam yell until all 4 party members are hasted, which wastes a lot of turns. Having that be the ONLY direct way to add MP Regen sucks, so we moved it to regen instead. Fortuntately, the AI will now use Regen as a set up spell, so the change has an additional bonus too. Douse came to be because we wanted a skill that inflicts oil directly due to removing oil from Hawk's eye.

Blind rage was changed because Insult outclassed it, and also due to the punny "Blind" Rage  :P . However, I currently have a problem with this skill mainly because the AI can't cure berserk and darkness at the same time (except through Heal, which requires being adjacent). It's very potent, so the accuracy should probably either go down or the skill could return to the way it was before.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 16, 2016, 12:50:38 AM
Ah, so MP Regen trips the AI into becoming a Yell bot? What status effect did MP Regen replace, by the way?  Also, could Yell spam be avoided if we give Yell HP Regen, as originally intended?

I am glad to hear you share my thoughts on Blind Rage. Like Silence, Blind is one of those status effects that cripples an entire type of unit (i.e., melee units), lasts forever, and is impossible to cure efficiently, since the AI prioritizes almost everything over curing Blind, including attacking with those Blinded units.  Before, the only way to reliably apply Blind was with Kiyomori, which also adds Poison.  The AI cures Poison well, so both ailments were usually healed together.  Now, Oracles can apply Blind with both Douse and Blind Rage.  In the case of Blind Rage, the AI can heal Berserk and only Berserk with Echo Grass, but will leave Blind be.

In a word, I think Blind Rage is currently OP. In the upcoming tournament, all melee units who face Yin Yang magicians and do not have Blind protection are going to be in real trouble.

My proposal would be to remove Add: Blind from Blind Rage.  Having one skill on Yin Yang magic add Blind is enough.  I think Douse is a great skill; it takes over Hawk's Eye, and most importantly the AI actually uses it. It is fine if Blind Rage is outclassed by Insult on average; in exchange, Blind Rage is affected by the Faith buff (which is now much easier to apply), sister skill Paralyze outclasses Blackmail, etc.

Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 16, 2016, 07:28:44 AM
Its not the MP Regen, it's the haste. Yell is just an inherently bugged skill, doomed to be spammed until everyone is hasted. Anything we do to the skill is going to make this worse.

MP Regen is the blank status, and MP Poison in dark/evil looking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 18, 2016, 08:36:15 PM
Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?

I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 18, 2016, 10:23:01 PM
The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 19, 2016, 08:27:32 AM
I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.

You're right, Andrew.  They were PEV-based in 1.39.  I think I reported it back then, too, then subsequently forgot about it.

The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/

Indeed  ):
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 23, 2016, 12:32:57 PM
After some thought: Even with the buffs to Ultima, it still feels like we're trying to make it underwhelming given that it's on Squire. It's easy to make it overpowered, yeah, but the fact that it's still 5 CT and on a somewhat low MA job doesn't give it the opportunity to really shine.

So a few alternative ideas: Make it PA based instead, so that it'll be the only true spell to use PA (the tons don't quite count), or give it something similar to the formula that poles use. That is, Max MA/PA *? (probably still 9).

Can this be seen as OP? Well, you'd see a few people try units stacked for PA (assuming 18) with Short Charge... But at most you'd probably only see damage around what would be Chiri for units stacked with MA (and Magic Attack UP) and STILL with a CT delay at that, though the smart targeting and unevadable nature would place it's desirability about = to Chiri.

I know in the past that people didn't really wanna touch Basic Skill because it's supposed to be "basic", but in a patch meant for balanced PvP combat, that concept feels silly because you're intentionally keeping something underpowered :v
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 23, 2016, 06:32:24 PM
I would like for Ultima to become PA/MA based. The only PA based AoE we really have are cover fire and the two PA based draw outs, and I'd really like to see more. This would also help male squires out a bit seeing as how they have the same PA as a female squire has MA. We also don't have any skills like this currently and it would be pretty unique in that regard. I like the idea of basic skill being basic in that it can work with a wide variety of builds, and this change provides that kind of versatility.

If that's not ok with most people, I would also be ok with it becoming purely PA based. The advantage there is that formula is already coded and everything, so all we have to do is patcher up and go. It would be boosted by attack up in this case, so just be aware of that.

It's all about options, and I don't think either change would step on the toes of anything we have currently because it still has 5 CT and is relatively weak unless you stat stack.

Speaking of PA/MA based things, What does everyone think of making cure 4 PA/MA based? It would still be a faith based emergency heal, but would then work for PA based classes as well. White Magic Lancers/Monks/Archers come to mind. I don't think this would step on chakra because chakra is instant, AoE, and recovers MP which synergizes well with MP Switch. They are two different skills amd have different uses. Also you would have to equip white magic, so it wouldn't be good for all builds/teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 24, 2016, 05:17:46 AM
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 24, 2016, 05:20:07 AM
My input:

Ultima formula change

Cure 4 formula changing to max(PA,MA)*15

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 24, 2016, 06:58:10 AM
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.

My main point is that yeah, it's still underwhelming compared to other skills. The smart-targeting aspect improved it greatly, but there's still room for that last push to making it great - Right now it's still an undesirable choice.

Not so much being on Basic Skill that makes it underpowered, far from it. Rather, I'd like to see anyone able to pick up Basic Skill and being able to use it with a broader setup, which the Max of PA/MA would allow, and would let Ultima Blade become super good in the right hands.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 03, 2016, 04:14:48 PM
My input to the suggestion list uploaded by silentkaster on 1 September.  There are a ton of suggestions in this list, so I will break up my comments with spoiler tags.  Most comments of my own proposals are omitted.

2016.09.01 Suggestions


And finally, the most dreaded content of all

In the words of James Brown, "Good God!" This was a long post.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 03, 2016, 11:07:22 PM
Why we will never give another Mage a Shield.

So long as Aegis Shield exists, you can not give another Mage Aegis shield. TM are only MA 9. On any Damaging Build they automatically go to 10 MA, get 30% M-Ev and 5% P-Ev.

This is fine on Time Mage, it puts them in line with White Mages and gives them a Evasion Edge. Other Mages innately start with a Better MA, more weapons and a more supportive or Damaging skillset. The Time Mage on the other hand, is a fifty/fifty skillset on support and disruption. They are not in and other themselves game winners, beyond Haste/Slow/Stop, which other skillsets do well and only Archers do it with Shields.

IF another mages gains shields they gain a free point of MA and a Free 30% M-Ev. I don't want Wizards getting any more power, and they are the least likely to get shields. However, a White Mage and Oracle now equals a Summoner and Summoner and Scholar equal a Black Mage with a free 30% M-Ev. If you nerf their MA, everyone who wants a damage mage will now have to Auto Equip Aegis Shield and you must commit to killing them with Physical Evasion, or Unevadeables. You can't punish people who don't want to build a Evasive, Magic User, by reducing their damage dealing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 04, 2016, 12:51:27 AM
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 04, 2016, 01:31:25 AM
On Float... If Float blocked Earth skills but not Earth Weapons I am ok with it. Earth skills roughly number 5. (Kiku, Quake, Earth Slash, Titan, Geomancies.) (I may have missed one.) Blocking all of those and then blocking all Earth-modified Weapons Skill including Grand and Southern Cross... That sucks. But then you take away the Giant Axe's ability to hit you. You remove Kiku, you remove any future earth weapon from the Equation... That sucks... In my opinion, leaving Float, and allowing to block Earth Skills should come at a cost. Weakness to (Wind or Lightning weapons and abilities.) or Earth Weapons... This would mean that when your floating your protected from Earth Dragon, Earth Slash, ect... But you do have a trade off. However small.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 05:30:25 PM
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 04, 2016, 05:51:35 PM
@Float.

With Andrew's idea of reworking Elemental clothes, I'd be ok with float being Removed altogether as a human option and only being something monsters can use in the future. Removing a point of MA off Diamond Armlet and reworking the clothes set to be more comprehensive on elemental absorb is a nice start. The proposed rework to Golden Hairpin, means that monk will lose elemental strengthening outside of 108 gems. I am completely ok with this, as Monks still have Chakra band.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 04, 2016, 06:23:41 PM
Merging Poison/Regen: Roger. I did not realise we would merge Regen and Refresh as well.  I have one concern: Hawk Eye and Scorpion Tail do big damage while incidentally applying Poison at a high rate.  If Poison turns into a mage killer, then something about these things might be in need of an adjustment.

Concerning Scorpion Tail, if this weapon remains unchanged, can we remove Flail access from Ninja?. When patch 1.40 reverted Scorpion Tail to 12 WP, Scorpion Tail's damage was boosted by 25% on Ninja with Attack Up.  These Ninja are hitting 40 Br units for over 300 damage without stacking a single point of PA.  Keep an eye on True Light's Ninja in the present tournament to see what I mean.

Since the Refresh flag has turned out to be an excellent method for coaxing the AI to use spells proactively, why not add it to Protect and Shell?  That way the AI will open battles with these spells as they ought to.  Wall can remain as a reactionary spell for the sake of variation.

Haste/Slow 2: Why not remove smart targeting and let the spells ocassionally backfire?  To use Slow 2, one's frontline units will require Slow immunity to avoid friendly fire.

Mages and shields: To clarify, I am suggesting we give Scholars shields in place of Time Mages.  Time Mages would receive 10 SP and become the Thieves of the magic world. Scholars would lose base MA so that they do not become Wizards with free EV.

Aegis Shield is a problem of its own.  It has been the most powerful all-purpose shield for mages ever since Venetian Shield became Swift Plate years ago.  I actually wanted to propose changes to Aegis Shield as well as Genji Shield in my previous post, but ran out of energy before writing them down.  Here they are:

Aegis Shield: 0 PEv, 25 MEv, +1 MA, Innocent immunity (partially subsumes Secular Shield)
Genji Shield: 25 PEv, 0 MEv, +1 PA, Darkness immunity

The Genji Shield change incidentally opens up the accessory slot for light armoured Grand Cross users (i.e. Squire and Geomancer).

Float: I cannot say anything at the moment about killing Float and shuffling around elemental absorptions because I am struggling to comprehend the arguments.  However, I can say that Earth elemental weapons do indeed ignore Float.  I recall seeing Earth elemental Grand Crosses hitting floating Time Mages while preparing for the present tournament.

Geomancy: Non-elemental Geomancy still pushes 150 according to its formula.  That's comparable to Draw Out.  It is mainly this non-elemental damage that I am concerned about, as there is no way to protect oneself from it other than with Shell.  Would it be agreeable if we gave all non-elemental geomancy an element and dropped their formula constants to 2?  That way geomancy fans can still deal high damage, while victims can protect themselves better with clothes, the above-proposed Elementalist movement ability, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 06:56:23 PM
I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 04, 2016, 07:39:26 PM
I'm hoping for changes 2 or 3 for the shuriken formula (based off the suggestions Andrew sent me) because it does need a damage buff.

If we have to revert it back to 1.39, my only condition is that it doesn't phase through walls. Because if you were to hire a assassin let's say to come to someone's house and kill them, would they try to throw a shuriken throw a brick wall and hope it hits the target? Just think about how stupid the assassin would be for trying.

Anyhow, shuriken should still feel like it's a fresh addition to 1.4 and different from 1.39. That's all I hope for in the end.

I would still keep float too. People just haven't found reason to use it. But people also forget that since it's immune to earth, not even Oil can override it
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 04, 2016, 07:51:00 PM
I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.

I couldn't have worded it any better. With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140, but since we've never seen the null: earth on float be a problem before, I don't see a justification for removing it. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 08:35:10 PM
I give up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 09:11:26 PM
With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140...

Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 04, 2016, 11:02:50 PM
Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.

I'm going to put a well thought out argument for Robes, Clothes and Hats to have some changes. Mostly it will be Elemental Interactions that I am looking at but won't touch the Stat-giving items. (They're in a nice place.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 05, 2016, 11:10:27 AM
I'm looking forward to it, gatebuster.

But people also forget that since [Float is] immune to earth, not even Oil can override it

That is a good point.

Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.

I agree.  In fact, I was a bit surprised to see MA*8 in the new formula for Bizen Boat.

For the sake of argument, is anyone comfortable with the idea of turning 1/3 of MP into Three Stars, a support ability (named after its appearance in Final Fantasies VI and X) which reduces the MP cost of all spells to 1?  Even with 1/3 of MP, units with low MP pools (e.g., Archer, Paladin, Thief) still expend their entire base MP bar after three or four casts of reasonably expensive magic (e.g., Raise 2, Demi 2, Paralyze).  Consequently, these classes must nevertheless equip at least one piece of MP equipment, usually Golden Hairpin or a robe, for sustained spellcasting.  How much better would this support ability be if its application allows one to eschew MP equipment entirely?

Perhaps a little. Think of it like this: Attack UP usually boosts PA by 3~4.  This allows players to equip their units with armor other than Twist Headband and Power Sleeve while maintaining the same effective PA.  By the same token, Three Stars will allow players to equip their low-MP units with armor other than Golden Hairpin/robes.  Thus, Three Stars and Attack UP become more comparable in potency at the design stage.

Nevertheless, Three Stars has its downside in battle, and thus is yet less potent than Attack UP.  By eschewing MP equipment with Three Stars, one becomes extremely vulnerable to MP damage; for example, a single tap of a Mage Masher by a feeble Wizard will nearly burn the entire MP bar of a 19 MP Thief.  And since Three Stars does not completely remove MP cost, such MP damage can still disrupt spell casting.  This downside also applies to those scheming to pair MP Switch and Three Stars together: Block a big hit with MP Switch and you'll still lose a turn recovering lost MP, Three Stars be damned.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 05, 2016, 01:20:19 PM
When I said that I didn't mean that golden hairpin changed, I was referring to the suggestion for it to half holy/dark. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 05, 2016, 10:10:28 PM
Okay, here are my thoughts on some stuff that I see proposed. I've only commented on stuff I'm not mostly indifferent on, or that I don't agree with. I kinda went in order of Gaignun's post as the document I had was at work. To be clear, if I haven't commented, it means I'm neutral or in agreement with the change (or my level of agreement/disagreement isn't too significant at the present moment.)




















Edit: I had written "20" instead of "10" by mistake above.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 06, 2016, 03:36:42 PM
I give up.
Still requesting an accurate team building spreadsheet without netherseer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
Glad to hear your input, silentkaster.

Merging Dancerbards: I don't mind merging the two jobs, nor allowing them to equip each other's weapons.  However, unless the algorithm which determines the stats of each sex has been unraveled, I don't believe we will be able to maintain 12 PA on female dancerbards, 8 PA on male dancerbards, etc.

Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?

Shuriken: If it isn't any trouble, why don't we have the skill throw a series of 4 shurikens?  This way we keep the damage of 1.39 Shuriken, but prevent targeting through walls.

Haste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.

Bow Gun: Yeah, 20% Add: Dead is fine.  25% Add: Dead is even better.

10 SP Time Mages: 10 SP allows a Time Mage to cast 2 CT spells before 8 SP units get their first turn.  This is great for applying Haste before the 8 SP units disperse from their starting positions.  As for Sinkhole, it isn't much better on 9 SP Time Mages either.  Sinkhole works truly best on 8 SP units against other 8 SP units.
 
Scholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.

Item and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.

New skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.

Cursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 07, 2016, 10:46:19 AM
If the shuriken skill won't phase through walls but will be renaming it with a plural I am fine with.

If it has to phase through walls then a name change would be necessary. Again I know I am adamant about shuriken but my point still stands.

Yes I understand that not everyone likes the current shuriken change because the damage is too low, but I think either giving it speed * 10, removing MP cost, or if it really has to go back to multi hit then it has to be renamed something else
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 01:12:19 PM
Could we change the formula from SP*X to something else, like (X*SP+Y) or (X*PA+Y)?  This is a cool formula because the Y is not reduced by Defense UP nor Protect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 07, 2016, 04:08:20 PM
Could we change the formula from SP*X to something else, like (X*SP+Y) or (X*PA+Y)?  This is a cool formula because the Y is not reduced by Defense UP nor Protect.

I suppose if it can work i'm cool with that too
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 04:42:29 PM
Thanks Gaignun for responding. I only have responses on a few things.


Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?

Since this does nothing except regain HP for a critical unit, it is a combination of a handicapped version of HP Restore and Nurse, but both working in tandem make a viable ability. One of the disadvantages of Nurse is that the AI will use it even on minor injuries (even when Move-HP up or existing Regen will put them back to full in some cases) or as set up even when more prioritized actions could be done. With HP Restore, the unit regains all its HP, but it doesn't trigger every time a unit goes into critical so it is a bit of a gamble. (Because of this, a minor point of mine is to reduce HP Restore's JP cost in the next major release but it's a very minor point so will only mention it briefly here for now.) This skill gives the AI an option where if in critical, it can restore its own HP some, but it must waste a turn in order to do so, (unlike HP Restore) and it won't be spammed.

I figured Basic Skill since Basic Skill has the most "basic" abilities and this ability could be, but may not be, useful depending on RSM, if you have Regen already, etc.

I would argue against putting it on other skillsets because most skillsets either have a better or different way of healing, or are very offensive. With Basic Skill's "mixed" nature, skillsets like Snipe or Black Magic aren't great for this skill.

Finally, I don't think the slippery slope context applies here. We don't need a self healing ability on every skillset simply because more offensive skillsets (which are those without such supports) will need to be gambled with or take a JP hit in order to be viable and consistent. Part of building your team if you want it to be successful is predicting the AI. And this ability being on Basic Skill doesn't give much extra offense power to Squires or Basic Skill users in general.

Haste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.

I'd rather be consistent here, especially if closing the gap on JP.
 
Scholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.

Again, not a fan of Scholars picking up shields taking them away from TM especially if TM becomes very frail. With the recent HP buff, this is why I think hats could go here instead of shields. If they pick up Regen and Poison, I vote that Mad Science moves elsewhere as well.

Item and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.

They really don't. Cure on a Priest's base MA only restores, even with a faith boost, 77 HP. Yes, it's AOE but 77 HP is often counter productive and requires two turns on the AI's part if they live that long. X-Potion is instant but not AOE and requires no faith or stacking. PD is instant and 100% (the only revival ability of its kind in the entire game) but revives with potentially the lowest HP. Raise 2 will miss a significant portion of the time and requires 5 CT which many units can intercept (and the AI puts a high priority on mid-charging that spell in most cases.) However, the potential reward is obviously much greater than PD.

New skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.

If we buff PD, I think we definitely need to merge poison and sap. One of PD's weaknesses is the poison problem. The damage skills are there to be unevadable, single target damaging/debuffing abilities. They have more effective ways depending on equipment and secondaries, and I'm not necessarily totally for putting abilities like this in the game, but it's worth a look if people are truly believing Item needs an offensive ability.

Cursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.

The thing about Raise 2 is that "dead" status shouldn't be able to evade. This is the only use for Raise 2 outside of a killing undead tool.

Cursed Ring has become a topic of debate in that it is now "too" nerfed. We don't see it much anymore and it is hard to make a mage unit with them because high faith means you're more susceptible to Raise 2. I argued that this was just a fact of Raise 2 and a side effect of using one of the most unique items in the game, but this is the only reason (at least to my understanding) that 99% was suggested for Raise 2 (for undead units.) I argued why this would affect the ability itself in my previous post. Since it doubles as powerful Revival and an undead killing tool, this made it "too" good in some peoples' eyes and was overshadowing other undead tools as well as "double dipping."

That is why I made so many other suggestions.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 07, 2016, 06:10:38 PM
Just a quick interjection at Phoenix Down... Can we code it to remove both dead and poison?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 07:55:45 PM
Just a quick interjection at Phoenix Down... Can we code it to remove both dead and poison?

Not sure, but I'd rather it not do that (unless we make Poison/Sap the same status in which case I'm still reluctant, but more tolerable of the idea.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 07, 2016, 08:18:09 PM
In all honesty I really don't think that it Should remove poison. As that removes the danger of Poison. Poison is good for stripping health. But it's better at holding down units as they are revived by PD an Wish. See Round 1 Elmdore. His team finagled the comeback by holding down the time Mage on map 2. And they did it with poison. Otherwise the tm was a threat, but never recovered due to the inability to cast.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 08, 2016, 01:28:24 AM
Magic Ring, 108 Gems, Light Robe, P Bag, and an instant cast Regen on white magic, these are all the answers a time/white mage has against poison. You played 139 gatebuster so you should've been aware of how powerful poison was against units that couldn't heal themselves instantly. I didn't see your team or match, but if you did actually make a time mage that didn't have one of the aforementioned solutions to poison and only have phoenix down be your only other form of revival then that's just a match up issue with your team and unit, not a balance issue.

Phoenix down is fine just reviving I would like it be buffed to at most 10% healing though. It wouldn't counter poison, but at least you'd survive wiznibus.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 08, 2016, 03:20:07 PM
Some brief responses.

Since [Recover] does nothing except regain HP for a critical unit, it is a combination of a handicapped version of HP Restore and Nurse, but both working in tandem make a viable ability. One of the disadvantages of Nurse is that the AI will use it even on minor injuries (even when Move-HP up or existing Regen will put them back to full in some cases) or as set up even when more prioritized actions could be done.  This skill gives the AI an option where if in critical, it can restore its own HP some, but it must waste a turn in order to do so, (unlike HP Restore) and it won't be spammed.

I acknowledge the point against Nurse.

Could we at least combine this skill with Yell?  This would feel satisfactory in two ways: (1) It repurposes Yell, which is currently a turn sink. (Yell spends 100 CT to provide a single (sub 12 SP) unit with 96 CT over the following 48 clock ticks. This yields no net positive benefit unless it incidentally cures Slow.) (2) It helps differentiate the skill from Nurse.

Next, regarding Haste/Slow 2...

I'd rather be consistent here, especially if closing the gap on JP.

I would hate to nerf Haste 2 out of the meta purely because it and Slow 2 have similar names.  I think we have achieved a nice balance of the relative costs and benefits of Haste and Haste 2.  The even distribution of Haste and Haste 2 in the present tournament (8 units know Haste, 10 units know Haste 2) is evidence of this.

Finally...

[White Magic spells] really don't [beat items hands down]. Cure on a Priest's base MA only restores, even with a faith boost, 77 HP. Yes, it's AOE but 77 HP is often counter productive and requires two turns on the AI's part if they live that long.

We need to consider optimized cases.  My 21 MA Bard in Season 5 heals himself for over 160 HP with Cure 1.  If Cure 1 heals for 77 HP, I wouldn't have bothered learning it.  This optimization comes at a cost.  In the case of my Bard, this cost was high Faith and an accessory slot to cover this high Faith.  Of course, it would have been cheaper to drop my Bard to 40 Faith and use X-Potion instead.  I decided that the cost of a more potent Cure was nevertheless worth it. 

It's like Chirijiraden: It hits for only 90 damage at 10 MA, but it would be foolish to balance it on the supposition that it is equal in strength to Cover Fire because you'll never see anyone with less than 15 MA using Chirijiraden.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 08, 2016, 05:06:48 PM
As for your point about Haste, I'm fine with that. You made a good argument. I'm not a fan of Yell, either so I would be fine with it being combined somehow, though I'm honestly not sure how to do that as I'm not that smart :P


We need to consider optimized cases.  My 21 MA Bard in Season 5 heals himself for over 160 HP with Cure 1.  If Cure 1 heals for 77 HP, I wouldn't have bothered learning it.  This optimization comes at a cost.  In the case of my Bard, this cost was high Faith and an accessory slot to cover this high Faith.  Of course, it would have been cheaper to drop my Bard to 40 Faith and use X-Potion instead.  I decided that the cost of a more potent Cure was nevertheless worth it. 

It's like Chirijiraden: It hits for only 90 damage at 10 MA, but it would be foolish to balance it on the supposition that it is equal in strength to Cover Fire because you'll never see anyone with less than 15 MA using Chirijiraden.

Can you expand on this? I might be missing what you're trying to say. Of course you wouldn't have bothered learning that with lowish MA but because you wanted that unit to be stronger, you went with that. But how does this argument propose that the cost of running a high faith team is less than the benefit provided by Cure and Raise 2?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 11, 2016, 06:27:22 AM
It's pretty tough for me to make definitive statements about that cost/benefit analysis, but I can scrap together a few statements about how much more potent I think White Magic is.

(1) Raise 2 is the most potent way of recovering from a defensive position.  You spend one turn reviving a fallen unit.  If your opponent then spends more than one turn knocking out that revived unit, you run a turn surplus which can be put toward offense or further defense. 

Phoenix Down cannot do this.  Not only will the revived unit require a second turn to be healed, but this unit will be killed in one hit before being healed, and possibly even after if your opponent has heavy hitters. At best you trade a turn with your opponent.  At worst the revived unit gets healed and still dies, dies in an AoE attack which incidentally harms/knocks out other teammates, or dies on its own turn to Poison.  In all cases you run turn-deficits.

Of course the unique downside of Raise 2 is its long CT.

(2) A Cure spell can heal multiple targets.  Heal two targets with a 130 HP Cure and you already run a one-turn surplus over X-Potion.  In addition, Cure, unlike X-Potion, can be used to manage AoE damage.

So, to summarize, optimized White Magic provides:
For the cost of:

I suppose the only way to prove if the benefits outweigh the costs is by running a big analysis on Item and White Magic teams to see which team wins more on average.  Luckily, we are blessed with selfless hosts and many teams with a good mix of Item and White Magic this season.  How about we observe how these teams do?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 11, 2016, 02:42:53 PM
IN the spirit of investigation @Both Silentkaster and Gaignun, I'd like to do a detailed breakdown of Item vs White Magic. If you both provide a pair of teams or even three teams, that focus on different aspects of WM, Item or Both, I will stream each of your teams (All Six) against the Top 8 teams from Season 5, using Season 5 Maps.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 19, 2016, 03:42:41 AM
So, I offer, my take on what Arena Shields, Headgear and Armor can be. I did not touch Headbands.

Hats         
Black Hood           110   30   None
Flash Hat           70   40   Half: Earth, Wind, Water
Golden Hairpin   70   40   Half: Dark, Holy
Green Beret           85   20   Move +1, Jump +1
Holy Miter           75   0   MA +2
Twist Headband   75   0   PA +2
Thief Hat           65   0   Speed +1
Triangle Hat           75   10   Boost: Earth, Wind, Water

So the Hats changed a bit. A slight change on HP or we now Halve a new set of elements. This will be expanded upon with Robes, but because all mages have access to both, Hats and Robes they are set up to complement each other. Triangle Hat benefits both mages and ninja's, giving two of their tons a opportunity to receive a boost. Golden Hairpin has changed due to the much heavier prevalence of Holy and Dark in abilities and weapons. This doesn't mean we see Strengthening Dark and Holy go, but instead we redirect it to a Robe.

Clothes         
Brigandine           130   10   None
Black Costume   90   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest           90   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit           90   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           90   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Power Sleeve   85   0   PA +2
Wizard Outfit   85   0   MA +2
Secret Clothes   70   0   Speed +1

Absorb Gear. That's the change. The robes have lost all their absorb properties, and we have rerouted the clothing. Strengthening earth is gone, and everything absorbs as a pair. No pair will nullify two tons. Ice, Lightning, Fire, Holy are all separated. Only thing left is Dark and Fire being potent together. Absorb gear took a small HP drop, but the MA/PA Stat gear compensated up a extra 5 Hp for the 5 they lost on the Hats.
         
Robes         
Silk Robe           90   50   None
Robe of Lords   70   120   None
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe           65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe           65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark
Wizard Robe   60   40   MA +2
Priest Cassock   80   40   MA+1, PA +1
Light Robe           75   50   Always: Regen Immune: Poison

Robes. Scrapped Chameleon Robe. Exchanged the Cultist Robe. Linen Robe became the Priest Cassock. Silk Robe and Robe of Lords have a been statistically balanced to Clothes. White Robe is slightly stronger HP/MP wise then they Half Hats. Boosting Robes stand to balance with Hats. You can not Boost everything without a Weapon or 108 Gems. You can't Half everything with these options either. What you can do is both Boost and Half Holy and Dark. Making the elements formidable, but at the cost of low HP, Moderate MP and little elemental and Status Coverage.
 
Helmets         
Grand Helmet   160   0   None
Cross Helmet   120   50   Immune: Sap
Barbuta           115   15   PA+1
Circlet           115   15   MA+1
Mythril Helmet   110   15   Move +1, Jump +1
Genji Helmet   100   0   Immune: Slow, Innocent
Crystal Helmet   110   0   Boost: Holy, Earth, Fire
Diamond Helmet   110   0   Immune: DA, Initial Reraise
Platina Helmet   110   0   Immune: Poison, Oil, Stop
Gold Helmet           110   0   Immune: Darkness, Frog, Sleep
         
Armor         
Maximillian           160   0   None
Genji Armor           85   0   Speed +1
Carabini Mail   120   10   PA +1
Platina Armor   120   10   MA +1
Reflect Mail           150   0   Initial: Reflect Immune:Faith
Diamond Armor   110   0   Immune: Dead, DS, Petrify, Slow
Gold Armor           110   0   Immune: Berserk, Don't Move, Oil
Crystal Armor   110   0   Immune: Charm, Slow, Undead
         
Shields   P-Ev   M-Ev   Attibutes
Escutcheon II   25   25   None
Aegis Shield           5   25   Immune: Innocent MA+1
Genji Shield           25   5   Immune: Darkness PA +1
Swift Plate           5   5   Speed +1 Immune; Haste, Slow, Stop
Flame Shield   15   10   Absorb: Fire
Gold Shield           15   10   Absorb: Lightning
Ice Shield           10   15   Absorb: Ice
Dewdrop Shield   10   15   Absorb: Water
Diamond Shield   20   5   Absorb: Dark
Platina Shield   20   5   Absorb: Holy
Round Shield   5   20   Absorb: Earth
Wyvern Shield   5   20   Absorb: Wind
Crystal Shield   25   0   Initial: Reflect
Kaiser Plate           15   15   Strengthen: Ice, Dark, Wind
Gaian Shield   10   10   Immune: Oil, MA/PA +1
Severed Head   10   10   Always: Berserk, Initial: Haste
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2016, 12:59:08 PM
In general I am in favour with shuffling around the elemental properties.  I can take or leave MP bonuses on armor.  (In my opinion, low mana pools ought to be a weakness among heavy armor classes; that's why they have robes.) However, I am noticing a trend among the HP and MP changes.  Let me elaborate:

Among the +XA gear:
Among absorption/strengthening gear:
So, in summary, elemental gear gets nerfed and +XA gear gets buffed?  Are elemental teams currently too strong in the meta?

I am not sure how I feel about the removal of Earth Clothes and Chameleon Robe.  Removing Chameleon Robe will effectively remove Excalibur Grand Cross Paladins from the meta and leave Excalibur stranded.  Removing Earth Clothes will definitely reduce the prevalence of Earth absorb teams.  I never saw a problem with either :/

Next, concerning robes, I notice that a higher premium is being placed on the MP bonuses.

+2 MA gear (Wizard Outfit and Wizard Robe)
1.40: +40 MP costs 15 HP
Proposal: +40 MP costs 25 HP

+1 XA gear (Heavy armor and Priest Cassock)
Proposal: +30 MP costs 40 HP  (The addition of 1 PA/MA is largely inconsequential to all but Geomancy)

+1 MA robes (Linen Robe changing to Priest Cassock)
Proposal: -15 HP (Straight nerf to all but Geomancy)

+0 XA gear (Brigandine and Silk Robe)
1.40: +30 MP costs 15 HP
Proposal: +40 MP costs 40 HP

MP is one of those stats you don't care how much you have as long as you have enough.  On the other hand, HP is a stat that can never be high enough.  Consequently, HP is more valuable than MP.

There was a time several years ago when we thought otherwise, and most robes had far less HP.  Robes back then sucked.  Only recently (patch 1.37? 1.38?) did we give these robes more HP and bring them out of obscurity.   By slashing robes' HP and leaving the likes of Brigandine and Black Hood unchanged, I fear we'll slip back into those dark days.

Last, I like the shield changes, but I wonder if giving Swift Plate both Slow and Stop resistance is a bit overkill.  I personally am fine with just Slow resistance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 20, 2016, 04:02:44 PM
At Gaignun, Lets start with the easy one, Swift Plate. It gained an Inability to be hasted in exchange it can't be stopped. It still provides speed.

MP does matter how much you have now, more then the last few patches due to a Balanced version of MP switch. Some People can and will use that excess MP as a second MP Pool, two new weapons hit the MP Pool exclusively. (Mage Masher with Holy Element and Ethereal Spear.)

Elemental Gear saw a slight reduction in HP to compensate for the Offensive Nature of AoE Healing from casters. Admittedly, this would be better if the "Basic Summons" no longer smart targeted. (Shiva, Ramuh, Ifrit.) To allow better synergy. But I am not suggesting that as it isn't thought through.

Stat Boosting Armor sees a bit of a MP boost. This is to allow a few more casting options. You can squeeze two more LoH out of a Paladin or more -tons... It opens up builds. without handing them a second health pool or forcing them to use the MP dedicated Helmet.

Flash Hat and GH Now provide = Amounts of MP Current Flash Hat is 80/20, and New Flash Hat is 70/40. IF you don't want to Halve incoming Dark/Holy but need the MP, grab the Flash Hat. Halving Gear is used for a Defensive Purpose, so you take a small hit to your mostly Offensive Resource. (And they improve your Defense so if someone uses it as a Second HP Pool, they get less milage from both the "extra health" and the extra elemental protection.

I think I covered everything
The only problem we might see is Aqua Suit and Black Costume... Those four elements show up on Wizard's skillset, and would be hard to plan around a team using two of each. (You would still have Bolts.) Otherwise, it should be difficult for a unit to completely nullify every elemental or reduce their elemental damage a significant amount from any class. (And they most certainly won't be doing it with much or any status protection.) (This paragraph can be ignored or omitted, it's strictly musing)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 22, 2016, 10:28:09 PM
I noticed I failed to talk about chameleon robes and earth clothes. I will correct that here.

Chameleon robe does not "have" to go. However it would use up a spare slot of equipment. What it offered, Dead/DS protection and Holy absorption was geared to Armored users and looks like clothes. (It's the one element clothes didn't absorb.) Earth clothes lost strengthening and I shuffled the elemental absorbs so as to not create a simple way to block -tons. (Every other elemental skill set has easy access to other elements or skillsets that synergize with their first skill set.) So holy absorption went, with all the others to clothes. Did this end GC Paladins? Not nessecarily. It does mean that another holy absorb option must be considered. Or Null:Holy at least. Neither Item is super attractive to a paladin, currently. (Talk of adding MonkeyGrip would allow Platina Shield with Excaliber.)

Earth Clothes lose Strengthen, but Triangle hat now strengthens water, wind and earth. This opens a earth strengthen back up to scholar.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 22, 2016, 11:38:15 PM
You had asked for my thoughts and here they are.

So, I offer, my take on what Arena Shields, Headgear and Armor can be. I did not touch Headbands.

Hats         
Black Hood           110   30   None
Flash Hat           70   40   Half: Earth, Wind, Water
Golden Hairpin   70   40   Half: Dark, Holy
Green Beret           85   20   Move +1, Jump +1
Holy Miter           75   0   MA +2
Twist Headband   75   0   PA +2
Thief Hat           65   0   Speed +1
Triangle Hat           75   10   Boost: Earth, Wind, Water

So the Hats changed a bit. A slight change on HP or we now Halve a new set of elements. This will be expanded upon with Robes, but because all mages have access to both, Hats and Robes they are set up to complement each other. Triangle Hat benefits both mages and ninja's, giving two of their tons a opportunity to receive a boost. Golden Hairpin has changed due to the much heavier prevalence of Holy and Dark in abilities and weapons. This doesn't mean we see Strengthening Dark and Holy go, but instead we redirect it to a Robe.

I'd rather leave Golden Hairpin as is and if we feel we need a Half: Dark and Half: Holy item, then add something like the Feather Cap or Leather Hat and have one of those items do that. I like the Triangle Hat as is now, so don't see a need for changing that. Again, if we need a piece of clothing needs to boost these elements, a new item can be introduced. No comment on HP/MP changes.

Clothes         
Brigandine           130   10   None
Black Costume   90   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest           90   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit           90   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           90   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Power Sleeve   85   0   PA +2
Wizard Outfit   85   0   MA +2
Secret Clothes   70   0   Speed +1

Absorb Gear. That's the change. The robes have lost all their absorb properties, and we have rerouted the clothing. Strengthening earth is gone, and everything absorbs as a pair. No pair will nullify two tons. Ice, Lightning, Fire, Holy are all separated. Only thing left is Dark and Fire being potent together. Absorb gear took a small HP drop, but the MA/PA Stat gear compensated up a extra 5 Hp for the 5 they lost on the Hats.
         
Robes         
Silk Robe           90   50   None
Robe of Lords   70   120   None
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe           65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe           65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark
Wizard Robe   60   40   MA +2
Priest Cassock   80   40   MA+1, PA +1
Light Robe           75   50   Always: Regen Immune: Poison

Robes. Scrapped Chameleon Robe. Exchanged the Cultist Robe. Linen Robe became the Priest Cassock. Silk Robe and Robe of Lords have a been statistically balanced to Clothes. White Robe is slightly stronger HP/MP wise then they Half Hats. Boosting Robes stand to balance with Hats. You can not Boost everything without a Weapon or 108 Gems. You can't Half everything with these options either. What you can do is both Boost and Half Holy and Dark. Making the elements formidable, but at the cost of low HP, Moderate MP and little elemental and Status Coverage.

I'm not a fan of Silk Robe as proposed. It's not a piece of equipment we see too often, but it does get some use sometimes, particularly from tanky magic users or Paladins. I believe Robe of Lords should get Sap or Berserk protection, (Berserk definitely if Defense Ring gets changed). For the same reason Gaignun mentioned, I don't believe Chameleon Robe should change. Excalibur is a niche weapon that can only be used naturally by Paladins and without a Robe to absorb, that limits it even further. Unless we'd plan on making Excalibur one handed (which is unlikely) then that weapon would become pretty obsolete (and it's not too popular even now.) The Priest Cassock idea sounds more like a Clothing item to me anyway, and there are clothing slots available (Clothes, Leather Vest, Mythril Vest, Adaman Vest, etc.)


Helmets         
Grand Helmet   160   0   None
Cross Helmet   120   50   Immune: Sap
Barbuta           115   15   PA+1
Circlet           115   15   MA+1
Mythril Helmet   110   15   Move +1, Jump +1
Genji Helmet   100   0   Immune: Slow, Innocent
Crystal Helmet   110   0   Boost: Holy, Earth, Fire
Diamond Helmet   110   0   Immune: DA, Initial Reraise
Platina Helmet   110   0   Immune: Poison, Oil, Stop
Gold Helmet           110   0   Immune: Darkness, Frog, Sleep
         
Armor         
Maximillian           160   0   None
Genji Armor           85   0   Speed +1
Carabini Mail   120   10   PA +1
Platina Armor   120   10   MA +1
Reflect Mail           150   0   Initial: Reflect Immune:Faith
Diamond Armor   110   0   Immune: Dead, DS, Petrify, Slow
Gold Armor           110   0   Immune: Berserk, Don't Move, Oil
Crystal Armor   110   0   Immune: Charm, Slow, Undead
         
Shields   P-Ev   M-Ev   Attibutes
Escutcheon II   25   25   None
Aegis Shield           5   25   Immune: Innocent MA+1
Genji Shield           25   5   Immune: Darkness PA +1
Swift Plate           5   5   Speed +1 Immune; Haste, Slow, Stop
Flame Shield   15   10   Absorb: Fire
Gold Shield           15   10   Absorb: Lightning
Ice Shield           10   15   Absorb: Ice
Dewdrop Shield   10   15   Absorb: Water
Diamond Shield   20   5   Absorb: Dark
Platina Shield   20   5   Absorb: Holy
Round Shield   5   20   Absorb: Earth
Wyvern Shield   5   20   Absorb: Wind
Crystal Shield   25   0   Initial: Reflect
Kaiser Plate           15   15   Strengthen: Ice, Dark, Wind
Gaian Shield   10   10   Immune: Oil, MA/PA +1
Severed Head   10   10   Always: Berserk, Initial: Haste

Why so many items that remove slow? There would be a shield, two pieces of body armor and a helmet that negate slow. Not to mention accessories and the fact that I believe there is an idea for Platinum Sword to cancel Slow. If anything, I'd probably be interested in seeing current Genji Armor and Reflect Mail combine. A low HP Armor that grants Initial: Reflect and +1 speed. Genji Shield looks like it would be wayyyy strengthened and not sure I like that. Also, don't mind new shield ideas but would rather keep names that were in Vanilla if possible. Just something that gives familiarity to new players even if the properties changed. Also, not a fan of Gaian shield. I think Immunity to Oil is enough. (I could see possibly raising its evade or giving it something like Null: X but not PA and MA + 1)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 09:31:48 AM
@ gatebuster

Swift Plate
I was under the impression that Swift Plate is gaining Immune: Haste to penalize SP stacking, and Immune: Slow so that Slow is not incurable.

Robes & MP Switch
What about the robe wearers who don't use MP Switch?   I don't believe that MP Switch is so potent that we need to weaken an entire class of armor to accommodate it. The cost of using MP Switch is the opportunity cost of all other reaction abilities, as well as the real probability of losing turns restoring lost MP, which is far less efficient than restoring lost HP.

Elemental gear & self-absorption
I am of the opinion that element-themed teams trade offensive healing for (1) restricted equipment options, (2) inaccessibility of evasion gear (e.g., you can't absorb friendly Kotetsu well if your M-Ev is through the roof), and (3) vulnerability to elemental defense (e.g., White Robe, clothes, hats, and accessories).

There was a time when Brigandine's HP was only around 10 higher than the absorption clothes. At that time, many players chose the absorption clothes over Brigandine even if they didn't run self-absorption strategies because the security against possible enemy elemental damage was worth the cost of 10 HP. (E.g., In season 2 circa Summer 2013, 37 units equipped one of the 100 HP absorption clothes; meanwhile, only 8 equipped Brigandine).

To make Brigandine more attractive, it received a 20 HP buff.  This buff had the intended effect: In season 5, only 18 units equip one of the 100 HP absorption clothes, whereas 12 equip Brigandine.  The ratio of absorption clothes to Brigandine has swung from 4.6:1 in season 2 to 1.5:1 in season 5.  I would say that this is a nice balance.

Excalibur Grand Cross & Monkey Grip
Monkey Grip carries the opportunity cost of losing Attack UP. In this case, Excalibur can no longer compete with Phoenix Blade or Ice Brand paired with Attack UP.  A Holy absorption accessory would be viable were Holy absorption not on Magic Ring, which is a lackluster choice for PA-based units.

@ silentkaster

You're right about Slow immunity.  I didn't notice that Genji Helm and Diamond Armor gained Slow immunity!

Concerning Genji Shield, the buff is to put it on par with a weakened form of Aegis Shield. I think these two shields could lose even more PEv/MEv, though (e.g., down to 20/0 and 0/20 or somewhere in between).

Ditto on Gaian Shield looking a little strong.  Unless we are ready to welcome 170 damage Carve Models, I suggest we reconsider its PA/MA +1.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 23, 2016, 02:44:48 PM

@ silentkaster

Concerning Genji Shield, the buff is to put it on par with a weakened form of Aegis Shield. I think these two shields could lose even more PEv/MEv, though (e.g., down to 20/0 and 0/20 or somewhere in between).

Not so much the evasion percentage, as much as the blind protection. With this, you'll easily get to 15 PA Grand Crosses (20 with Attack Up) and in the case of, say, Phoenix Blade, 16 PA Grand Crosses with Immunity to Don't Act, Don't Move and Initial Reraise! Sure, we could change a bunch of weapons to make this less palpable, but I just feel Null: Blind could be left as Null: Dead or simply add Null: Petrify or something. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 03:41:26 PM
That's a good point.  I wanted Blind immuniy on a shield so Geomancers and Squires can use GC without depending on Blind immunity from an accessory, but it's true that many GC builds will get a +1 PA buff and some among them will reach 15 PA.  Would the shield be better if it (1) didn't have +1 PA, or (2) didn't have Blind immunity?

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 23, 2016, 03:53:34 PM
Well, with the proposed change of Immune: Innocent going to Aegis Shield, I wouldn't mind the current Secular Shield becoming an Immune: Blind shield so that you now have the choice. It gives players a lot of choices. Do they want to absorb the element, add PA, Strengthen the element or get Blind Immunity with their shield slot? It could just be renamed the Bronze Shield if needing a name.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 07:51:04 PM
I can get behind that.  Something like

Bronze Shield: 15 PEv, 15 MEv, Immune: Blind

PEv is boosted by 5 to put the shield on par with the other options.  We can discuss the exact Ev values later.  Apart from Grand Cross, the shield can also be used to counter Blind Rage, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 01, 2016, 04:58:51 AM
Apologies for the double post.

How might we obtain consensus on changes for the next patch?  There are currently a ton of suggestions in the suggestions list as of 25 September. Many of these suggestions are incompatible.  (Shuriken alone has four separate suggestions.) Still many more are contingent on the implementation of others.  It would be infeasible to vote on each and every suggestion.

Might I suggest we isolate the skills, equipment, and jobs in most dire need of change and focus on only those in the next patch?  Smaller matters, as well as matters that might require extensive work (e.g., creating new active and RSM skills), could be relegated to a future patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 02, 2016, 03:39:42 AM
I agree. We are really just suggesting things like crazy because we get inspiration and ideas, but we need to weed out the actual important stuff from the creative "this would be cool" ideas. I don't think the suggestions list is really getting us anywhere anymore, it's kinda just there. I keep saying that we need to establish a priority cue, but it's difficult when we keep suggesting things and don't do anything with them.

Here's a list of what I, personally, feel we need to take a look at for the next patch. I had a rant typed up about how we need a new system but I don't want to be too strict...

My list is in this format:

Jobs: If a job needs something about it changed, like equipment/stats/etc, put it here
Skill Sets: If a skill set has skills that need to be looked at, list them and those skills here
Weapons: Put any weapons that need changes here
Shields: Put any shields that need changes here
Armor: Put any armor that needs changes here
Accessories: Put any accessories that need changes here
Statuses: Put statuses that need their protection/infliction/attributes/etc re-evaluated here

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 02, 2016, 06:34:24 AM
The suggestion list is pretty flawed since it leads to bias and lead to unnecessary arguing. 140 worked because it was a community effort. There's no need for leaders or any hierarchy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 02, 2016, 05:03:18 PM
Might as well post what I believe are priorities as well.  I'll intentionally keep this short:


Other changes people think are essential are fine, too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 04:14:06 PM
I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit   100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 03, 2016, 07:32:08 PM
For a patch between major releases (unless we're jumping right into the next full version, which I don't think we are) I think we can be pretty concise. Having taken a look at the tournament and even what many melee teams are doing, I've tried to narrow it down to about ten changes for what I think should be in. I'm not saying that many of the other ideas aren't interesting, should or should not be implemented or whatnot, but I think we should be pretty limited as to what we introduce to the next patch. A reminder that 1.4a didn't get many changes from 1.4.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 09:02:28 PM
Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 04, 2016, 06:22:43 AM
Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP

I would rather see weapons with fewer selections gain an extra option or two over seeing more spellguns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 04, 2016, 09:58:32 AM
@ gatebuster:

I like those clothes suggestions.

@ silentkaster:

I like your suggestions, too.  I would like to make two comments:

Holy/Dark Holy damage: Would it not be more consistent to make Dark Holy one point weaker than Holy?  Dark Holy is Nether Holy in all but name, and all Nether spells on Black Magic are one point weaker than their variants.  This is done to balance the safety of low brave with the risks of high faith.

Holy/Dark strengthening robe: I don't find the MP boost of a Holy/Dark strengthening robe a problem, given that we've had Black Robe for ages without any trouble. Nevertheless, making it clothes is OK with me, too.  No strong opinions here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 04, 2016, 05:07:21 PM
Dark Holy being as strong as Holy makes just as much sense as Holy on black magic.😂👌
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 05, 2016, 01:09:45 AM
Reks, WKW and I were discussing Spellbooks casting the respective Ice/Fire/Lightning spell, leaving gun with just four options. The "books" being sourced from slots previously believed unusable. This would leave us with three new slots in general or three new guns. Ranged weapons in general don't have as much love as Melee options. I haven't composed my non-elemental gun thoughts, but when I do I will let this page know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 10, 2016, 02:14:36 PM
Aight, so I've given it a lot of thought, and

Well, I really don't have much of an opinion on many of the proposed changes. I DO agree where things -need- a change (Dancer), but for the most part I can't come up with a cohesive list of my own prioritized change offerings.

HOWEVER

I do have opinions towards - surprise surprise - Squires.

So, without further ado, a few things that came to mind during the dull period at work. (which is, in hindsight, pretty much all of it)

And do be aware that, yes, I am biased towards Squires a bit, so take what I say with a slight grain of salt (and not the whole damn shaker.)
Trying to be funny here, sorry if I sound a bit aggressive.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 12, 2016, 09:40:03 AM
I am fully in agreement with elevating Basic Skill to the level of... every other skill set.

Adjusting female Squires' PA and MA: If we change the female Squire's PA/MA to 7/9, then I believe we would incidentally change the male Squire's PA/MA to 9/7.  This co-dependence is why we currently have so many (generally) useless jobs in Arena (e.g., male wizard, female monk).

Bullrush: Oddly enough, I myself have considered making Bullrush unevadable.  Both this and making it cancel Protect and Shell are good ideas to me.  If Protect and Shell inherit the Refresh status as a priority flag (so that the AI uses Protect and Shell at the start of battle as they ought to), then Bullrush will have a solid role in the metagame.

Heal: In addition to adding Cancel: Undead, I would also love to see this skill receive +1 Range to put it on par with Wish.

Yell: Absolutely in favour of a redesign.  Silentkaster's critical-only heal skill is a nice idea.

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 03, 2016, 10:13:21 PM
I was thinking about shuriken today and even though I think speed is its original formula for damage, if it needs a buff then why not do speed * 10 (or give it 0 MP cost so that way you can stack speed).

If it has to revert to its PA formula again, at least keep it single hit and doesn't phase through walls
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 21, 2016, 06:25:06 PM
Here is something that has been kicking around the back of my mind for awhile.

RSM system redesign
How would people feel about replacing the RSM system with a "RSXM" system? The "X" in this new system stands for "Equip X."

Currently, we have seven "Equip X" abilities.  In spite of this, only 20 units used an Equip X ability during Season 5, and over half of those (11) was Equip Shield.  I believe the reason why Equip X is hardly used is because its opportunity cost almost never outweighs its benefits.  When you use Equip X, you receive a very slight and/or team-specific bonus.  Meanwhile, you pass up on much better support abilities such as (Magic) Attack/Defense UP.

In this new system, we would group all Equip X skills into a single, new ability class.  Other underwhelming abilities (such as Maintenance) can also be thrown into this new class.  Reaction, support, and movement ability classes would remain unchanged.  Then, units can equip up to three abilities as before, but only one ability from each of the (now) four classes.  In other words, players can choose to sacrifice not only their support slot, but also their reaction or movement slots to accommodate an Equip X ability.

Implementing this new system should be possible without any ASM tinkering.  Right now, RSM abilities seem to be able to be scrambled and still work as intended.  So, the game should be able to handle a unit with, say, Attack UP in the R slot, Move +1 in the S slot, and Equip Heavy Blade in the M slot without any hiccups.  All that is required is the consensus of the community.

This redesign ought to open up plenty of new, unconventional designs.  Attack UP, Excalibur Grand Cross Monk? No problem!  Short Charge, Equip Armor tank mage? You got it!  Of course, these unconventional designs will come at the cost of the R or M slot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 22, 2016, 06:35:04 AM
RSXM System counter argument matches (and further reinforcement that spell guns need to be changed :P):

https://www.twitch.tv/dw6561/v/102629903

Team used:


Teams fought:
Gaignun's season 5 team
Silentkaster's 100% accuracy
Dokurider's Oregon Trails
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 22, 2016, 06:47:15 AM
Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

Nobody uses Equip Light Gear for the clothes+weapons combos, as they may as well just use a ninja for this purpose (honestly, it's pretty much Equip Ninja minus Two Swords, lol.)  If I see Equip Light Gear in action, it's usually for the Hidden Knife on mages.

Equip Magegear is rarely used; and, if it *is* used, it's for the weapons it has to offer.

Mind you, if we did this, we would have to adjust what jobs have which RSMs, but I don't think it would be all that troublesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 22, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
Thanks for the concept matches, dw.  You raise some good points!  An RSXM system would be hugely beneficial for units like monster truck monks with pointed sticks and mages with Hidden Knife.  As you kindly demonstrated, the current jobs and equipment aren't balanced to accommodate such a system.

Now that I think about it, opening up combos like Equip Spellgun/Magic Attack UP/Pilgrimage to every unit in the game would suck.  I hope spellguns get changed regardless, though.

Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

I am personally fine with this. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 03:27:27 AM
Cool.  I'm glad that you like it, Gaignun.


I know that I'm a little late to the party, but here's my favourites from the suggestion list (and thread):

Also, here's some other new ideas that myself and others have come-up with in the Discord channel recently:


I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.

I'm definitely cool with this.


<snip>

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.

I'm definitely in favour of buffing Wish and even Revive.  Maybe Wish could go to 25%, and Revive to 33%?  If need be, they could have their JP costs increased, but I don't feel that would be necessary.  Chirijiraden could definitely go down to MAx8 and 300 JP.


EDIT 1: Removed my Bronze Armor idea, as CT5 convinced me that it wouldn't be a good idea.

EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, Chirijiraden can go to MAx8 and stay at 400 JP, as it'd still be worth the price.  Also, Phoenix Blade should go down to 13 WP: initial Reraise is powerful in its own right, so it should be brought down to the power of the other elemental swords, at the very least.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 25, 2016, 06:10:29 PM
- Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)

I'm glad you like the book idea!  We can do Harry Potter cosplay together.

My comments on the new ideas as a Discord outsider:
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 06:49:07 PM
LOL, sounds like a fun time for next Halloween.  :P

Yell: I honestly don't know what else to do to it without it becoming a clone of the other Haste skills.  Somebody mentioned in Discord that it could use Dokurider's new "cone AoE" ASM hack.  (A similar suggestion was made for Aurablast and the physical Draw Outs, as well.)
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?
Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?
MP Poison: 1/4th would allow for it to keep-up with how fast-paced Arena can be, and put pressure on mages.  I feel that merging it with HP Poison wouldn't solve its potency problem at all, as most MP builds would easily shrug off its damage (unless it went to 1/4th as well as merged, but I think that'd be a little too much).  I guess it would persist upon death, though, so it would still be an improvement.

I'm glad that you like the other suggestions.

EDIT: To clarify, the cone AoE would look like this: (Gatebuster202 said that we could perhaps use it for Muramasa, as well)
ooPoo
ooxoo
oxxxo
xxxxx
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 05:14:53 PM
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?

I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.

Let's see.  Currently Murasame is MA*10 and cannot be boosted with MAtk UP (i.e., its output value is immutable).  Turning it into (MA+PA/2)*10 would add a flat 5*PA.  Going from there to (MA+PA/2)*12 would be equivalent to first buffing the current Murasame to MA*12, then adding a flat 6*PA on top of that.  I'm sure you can see by now how strong of a buff that is.

How about we start with XA = (MA+PA)/2 as a guide? Most classes have somewhere around 7 XA. The top scorers are the Dancerbard (10) and Monk, Geomancer, Samurai, and Scholar (9). To uphold the healing "floor" (e.g., 110 healing by an 11 MA female samurai (famurai?)) the formula XA*(11~12) would be appropriate.  To uphold the healing "ceiling" (e.g., 180 healing by a MA-stacked Geomancer), the formula XA*14 would be appropriate.  Upholding the floor knocks down the ceiling, and upholding the ceiling lifts up the floor.

Next, let's consider XA = (MA+PA/2) as originally suggested. Now the average XA is around 12~13, and the top scorers are the Bard (16), female Samurai and Scholar (14.5), and Dancer (14).  The appropriate formula is then around XA*8 (floor and ceiling).

 
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?

80 is better than 70!

Cone AoE stuff

The cone AoE feels like something I would see in Disgaea.  I am eager to listen to the possibilities this AoE hack would bring.  It feels a little thematically inconsistent on Draw Out, but definitely neat on Punch Art.

Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 28, 2016, 06:47:13 PM
I like the spell book ideas. That looks like it's cool.

And also, I know it will sound a bit too nit picky but for a class called scholar it cant wield books? Are they illiterate?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 28, 2016, 07:07:02 PM
I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.
Yeah, you're right.  I had an idea about turning it into a physical version of Chirijiraden, but that would definitely overshadow Spin Fist, a skill that definitely needs a nerf as it is.  I'm a little sad right now, TBH.

<Murasame stuff>
Makes sense.  I'd be fine with *8 or *9.  Please, join us on Discord!  (Seriously)

Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.
I hate spellguns so much that I, in the end, wouldn't mind having these replacing the current books.  However, any weapon can have its type turned into another, so we can simply just turn the spellguns into spellbooks, and leave the current books alone (or, if need be, we can buff them in a less extreme way).  Also, there's already the Black Staff for Bio 3, which I'm hoping will have its proc chance buffed in the future.  Despite my gripes, I like what you've come-up with here.

Thanks for the feedback, Gaignun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 28, 2016, 09:02:01 PM
I had (PA+MA)/2*Y in mind all along when I mentioned it on Discord. That might have just been an order of operations miscommunication on my part.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 28, 2016, 09:14:35 PM
My bad, DW.  :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 07:33:28 AM
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark

The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:
With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 30, 2016, 02:23:00 PM
Your insight is appreciated, Gaignun.  Thanks, and GL with your exam!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 30, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark


Minor point, but could we keep Rubber Costume as the name and perhaps use Adaman Vest or Mythril Vest for the Holy/Wind absorb if this gets implemented? I just like to keep it consistent in areas we can with Vanilla. I understand Aqua Suit as that would entirely cover all H20 based offense so it sounds good.

The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:
  • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.

At the moment, I think that these are necessary unfortunately with spell guns. Even in 1.38d when Spell Guns ran rampant, they still often took two hits to take down mages that weren't ridiculously low in HP even at maximum capacity. This is no longer the case. Also, Defense Ring and Defense Armlet probably accounted for much of the elemental defenses since these accessories are so strong (particularly since most were anticipating people to run teams with Don't Act and Berserk.) I think if Spell Guns get addressed, this may be different.

  • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)

Agreed, though Water does have the unique ability to not be hampered by Reflect Ring/Reflect status.

  • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Clothes, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.

Earth has always been an exceptionally strong element. I always overlooked it a bit since Float can negate much of the Earth Element, but it's easier to make many types of teams which also happen to absorb Earth (as opposed to having the drawbacks many other elemental absorb teams have where abilities and equipment may have to be sacrificed to absorb particular elements.) I think Earth Clothes getting a swap is a good thing. However, then I would advocate for Monks keeping bags.

  • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)

Agreed fully on this.

  • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.

This last patch, Holy saw a huge increase because of the lack of Holy element, at least AOE wise. With the new Heaven's Cloud, it's a huge boost since most teams did not want to count on "Holy spamming" theirselves in order to heal. Though it still doesn't have AOE like other elements, it's a much more viable option now. I would also argue that most teams having Reflect probably had Holy and Dark Holy in mind when thinking of using it (I'm aware some teams may have been thinking of Yin Yang Magic or Black Magic spells instead, but I'd be more inclined to believe Holy and Dark Holy were at the top of the list.)

  • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.

Again, pretty agreed. This was also partially due to Cursed Ring being stronger than its current form.

With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

Yup. That's why I'd advocate for Monks to still equip bags. I think they're going to see more nerfs which I'm not sure how I feel about, so if Earth Clothes get nixed, then I think bags are fair. Yeah, and if that's the case, Excalibur basically goes extinct along with it. If this happens, perhaps exchanging Excalibur's properties with one of the Fire/Lightning/Ice swords would work? (So that Paladins could equip shields and absorb Holy that way with the Holy crossing sword. Either that, or making Excalibur the sole Knight Sword that isn't forced 2H.)

Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.

Yup, and with Spell Guns, I think it'd be really over the top. So not sure I'd want Lightning to be the new Go-To at the moment.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 01, 2016, 01:32:35 AM
Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 01, 2016, 07:21:21 AM
Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.

If you recall, originally all four levels of each spell existed. At one point, the original tier for 2 became the nether spells  and the 4th level spells were axed to provide room for Water. The spell guns were then set to cast only the strongest spell instead of being random, which was the old 3 (now called Fire 2, ect), and that's why the animations don't technically line up in order.

I would much rather see the level 4 animations over the 3 ones because they have more visual oomph, but that's me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on December 01, 2016, 03:44:05 PM
Quote

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.

For the record, I would have to code the spell guns to miss. The magic gun formula doesn't account for evasion. My understanding of it is that it would be just like a 3 range spell gun that doesn't have to worry about projectile guard.I still like this though because of the shorter range and like you said, summoners and priests. Though also I'm a little nervous about the extra high-faith synergy this could resukt with on priests 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on December 17, 2016, 04:35:00 PM
I haven't replied in a while but the elemental clothing was sorta, my baby, on discord anyway.

Now that I've seen the conversation I throw in some thoughts.

1 Hairpin Change. It wasn't mentioned but Hairpin getting the Half Elemental means that Faith teams don't have to rely on two slots to provide Holy/Dark Holy protection. This hurts the Dark/Holy meta that has exploded with Bizen Boat and the hybrid classes. (Geo/Sam) and their access to easy holy boosting.

2 Earth Clothes losing strength earth. This hurts monks. It was geared towards reducing monks a bit in the EASE of synergizing with other units. If we gave one additional headband to the monk that say, boosted Wind and Earth and then returned Aura blast to wind an made it cone AOE. Monks have two elemental AOE options that punish teams that clump up, and are then forced to choose offense or defense with their headbands. That also only boosts one -Ton and doesn't make monks any scarier at anything else while allowing them to best utilize punch art.

3 Dark/Holy/Excaliber- Excaliber should be one handed and not able to be two handed. If it is the Arthurian blade of legend it is perfectly balanced and fast as lightning.

Dark and Holy teams with out access to Shield and Robes an Helmets can't easily boost it... Who does this impact that would use it? Does it make Geomancers squishy? Yes. Does it make samurai squishy to boost dark? Yes. Does this ruin a few builds... I didn't see any with a quick glance. It limited design in some areas, but the proliferation of Hybrid builds have overshadowed the base MA/PA classes this patch. Bard excluded.

I currently am suffering the "head cold from hell." But if you have other points or counter arguments I will get back to you ASAP. :)

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 29, 2017, 04:30:39 PM
I have had some time to play around with 1.41. I like many of the changes. However, there are a few things that are nagging me:

Cheer Up
I think that this skill could use an AoE buff (like Yell) to make it more useful.

Refute
Was the accuracy of this skill always (MA+55)%?

Battle Orders & Pathos Speech
Currently underwhelming in comparison to their Sing predecessors for several reasons:
I never felt that the Sing skills were particularly powerful to begin with, so these changes are particularly discouraging for me.

Excalibur
What happened to this weapon? It took a big WP nerf, and now it is only worth using in combination with the Two Hand support ability. The Grand Cross Excalibur build is no more.

+1 Move on Samurai
I understand that the +1 Move tremendously helps the male melee Samurai out, but it helps the female Draw Out samurai just as much.  Before we had to settle for Draw Out Geomancers if we wanted 4 base Move. Now we can stick with Samurai and use their secondary skill slot for whatever we please.  Female Samurai have become much more effective as a result (and they were already pretty effective to begin with).  This is just something to keep an eye on.

And speaking of Draw Out...

Nerf Bizen Boat
MA*8, element-boostable, BrFa-piercing damage is too high.  The synergy of Bizen Boat and Crystal Helm on the now fleet-footed Samurai is incredible.
Chirijiraden took a damage hit from MA*9 to MA*8. Bizen Boat should take a hit, too, if only to keep Draw Out internally balanced.


Peacemaker
I am puzzled over why Stone Gun got its one-handed property back. Stone Gun was made Force-2H because it eclipsed crossbows. The new Peacemaker with Attack UP beats Gastrafitis with Concentrate hands down: Peacemaker delivers similar damage, but requires none of the PA stacking that Gastrafitis does. If Peacemaker remained Forced-2H, at least you'd have to give up your shield for this extra equipment freedom.

Spellguns
I am sure I will take heat for this, but I miss the fire, ice, and lightning spell guns. These three guns served a unique role: Healing high-faith friendly targets with high M-EV.  As a bonus, these guns could trigger Counter Magic, so with the right equipment the spellgunner could also heal herself in the process. On the flipside, White Robes were effective at defending against these spellguns. Flare Gun feels a little lackluster in comparison: It cannot be used for friendly healing, and it cannot be mitigated by White Robe. Perhaps Flare Gun is a slightly more consistent offensive weapon, but it is not nearly as versatile as its predecessors.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on March 29, 2017, 05:44:15 PM
Heya, Gaignun, it's been a while!  Thanks for taking the time to update your team-building tool.


CHEER UP
I would be okay with it gaining some form of AoE.  2 range three-directions?  Should it affect the user, as well?

REFUTE
Its accuracy has been MA+55 since 1.39c, at the very least.  While it isn't exactly reliable, it *does* dispel everything!  Despite this, I'd be fine with a small accuracy increase, like +5.

BATTLE ORDERS AND PATHOS SPEECH
We just talked about it in Discord.  What would you think of MA+45% accuracy and 6 CT?  Unlike the old songs/dances, Short Charge can reduce the CT of these two skills; so, with these adjustments, you could have a 3 CT and 70%~ accuracy Battle Orders/Pathos Speech kicking around for your team, putting them on par with (or even better than) the old songs.  Mind you, the AI's low priority for using these skills hampers their usefulness on smaller maps.

EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

+1 MOVE ON SAMURAI / NERF BIZEN BOAT
For a short period during 141 development, Samurai were at 8/10 MA due to receiving buffs in other areas.  However, some players disagreed with the MA nerf, and after some lengthy debating, their MA was brought back up.  Would you be fine with Bizen Boat if Samurai had their MA brought back down to 8/10 MA again, or do you feel like Bizen Boat itself would need to be nerfed instead/as well?

PEACEMAKER
I full-heartedly agree with you on this one.  I feel like both it *and* the Flare Gun don't need shield access.  They gained shield access because players wanted for shield access to be consistent for guns, but there wasn't much of an argument made for this change.  I would be fine with both of these weapons going back to being forced two-hands.

SPELLGUNS
Ultimately, we decided that it was their elemental property that made them so deadly, due to elemental strengthening being an extra multiplier that pushed their damage over the top.  Yes, you could've went White Robe to mitigate their damage, but the units that didn't suffered big time.  The Flare Gun is our compromise for keeping this kind of weapon in the game.  It's still capable of dealing great damage (especially when combined with MAU/Faith), and is a great choice for taking out the legion of low-Brave mages wandering about.


- Andrew
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on March 29, 2017, 05:55:28 PM
EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

I'd like to clarify that Grand Cross will disregard your own S-EV unless you have Awareness. In other words, an attack on yourself will default to a back attack. So only 25% of the unit's C-EV plus the A-EV will count.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 30, 2017, 03:12:08 PM
Thank you for the quick response as always, Andrew!

CHEER UP
A 3 direction AoE would be awesome, even if its JP cost must go up by ~50 to compensate.

REFUTE
Its accuracy dropped awhile ago, huh? +5% accuracy would be lovely if only to keep up the pace of matches. (Watching a Mediator spend 2~3 turns trying to remove a status ailment on a friendly unit is a little wearing.)

BATTLE SPEECH
MA+45% accuracy sounds OK with me. If it comes to pass that this accuracy boost enables extreme XA stacking strategies, we could even keep its accuracy low at MA+35%, but remove its CT.

EXCALIBUR
I see. Though it might no longer be the best GC weapon, I suppose it's not so bad, as you said.

SAMURAI BOAT
It depends on what we want, I suppose. Dropping Bizen Boat's multiplier nerfs Bizen Boat. Dropping Samurai's MA nerfs Samurai, but keeps Bizen Boat as the go-to powerhouse skill.  Seeing that Samurai took an HP hit this patch, I'm leaning toward the former option.

SPELLGUNS
You're certainly not wrong about the elemental strengthening. I just never felt that they were terribly powerful in their last form before being removed in spite of that (4 Range and lower raw damage than Stone Gun - before Pilgrimage kicks in, anyway). Oh well.  There is always Healing Gun.  (Even a hypothetical Demi or Demi 2 gun would be nice. This gun would have the ability to heal, deal damage, and be Counter Magicked as before, but wouldn't have the same runaway damage problem.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on April 06, 2017, 02:41:11 PM
You were definitely onto something about Excalibur.  RavenOfRazgriz recently checked Arena out, and he gave us shit about this weapon, lol :P.  He suggested for it to go back to being 14 WP and forced two-hands, but have elemental strengthening be replaced by +1 Speed to make it easier for paladins and male mystic knights to get to the higher Speed levels, while still dealing okay damage.  Since Swift Plate now blocks Haste, this could be an interesting and effective way to buff Excalibur.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on April 06, 2017, 07:18:28 PM
I agree, +1 SP would make Excalibur a great weapon to use. It doesn't need the elemental strengthen, especially if grand cross gets the boot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CupOfOrangeJuice on July 04, 2017, 03:08:19 AM
Hey this might be a typo. But under "hawks eye" in the master guide it doesn't apply poison anymore and doesn't seem to do anything more than a standard attack that costs MP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 04, 2017, 03:22:45 AM
yeah there have been some adjustments. Hawks'eye in it's current state is unavoidable (sans projectile guard) two swordable, no ct, and can be boosted via elemental stuff. The (weapon attack) means you can pretty much use whatever weapon you want for it as will go by that weapon's formula and is not effected via brave status.

Poison is also more potent in it's current state as it also depletes both HP & MP and is no longer over written by regen. Your units have to actually cure it or be immune to poison. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 04, 2017, 04:40:09 AM
How does that even work, by the way?

Do units affected by both Poison and Regen lose and recover the same amount of HP and MP at the end of their turn? In that event, do they lose or recover the HP and MP first?

Similarly, since Haste now no longer overwrites Slow, can units be affected by both Haste and Slow at the same time, and in that event do the effects of Haste and Slow combine to leave the affected unit's SP at its base value?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 04, 2017, 06:49:11 AM
How does that even work, by the way?

Do units affected by both Poison and Regen lose and recover the same amount of HP and MP at the end of their turn? In that event, do they lose or recover the HP and MP first?

Similarly, since Haste now no longer overwrites Slow, can units be affected by both Haste and Slow at the same time, and in that event do the effects of Haste and Slow combine to leave the affected unit's SP at its base value?

I don't know the exact coding intricacies DW, Doku, or someone similar would have the better details.

But from my understanding is that they're not active at the same time. If a units has regen/haste & gets hit with poison/slow their status gets overwritten to become poison/slow & no longer regen/haste.  While Regen/Haste can no longer overwrite poison/slow for the reverse.

For example if a units gets hit with poison and then uses "nurse" that unit will only get the healing/defending part of nurse while regen doesn't activate.  Poison/Slow will overwrite Regen/Haste but not vice versa. 

I think it was partly done to avoid endless loops with units trading those abilities back&forth.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 04, 2017, 07:56:22 AM
Thank you for the prompt response, Heroebal.

If that is the case, then Poison/Slow effectively disables Regen/Haste.  That's pretty powerful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on July 04, 2017, 08:28:23 PM
We did that because there wasn't proper counterplay involved. It was quite frankly getting annoying to be FORCED to use a team with either haste or slow or else you're screwed for example. I was getting tired of the haste/slow wars and poison literally only being useful as a turn-waster. Also, regen has been proven to be used extremely well on teams with high HP totals, or just in general because it's basically a free move-HP Up that doesn't require movement.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 05, 2017, 06:13:57 AM
What counterplay are we expecting? For example, the AI will still spam Slow, and teams will still spend a turn healing it. However, those teams with haste will now spend two: One to heal slow, and another to reapply haste.  When faced against slow, the recommended counterstrategies now seem to become either running slow immunity as before, or dropping all haste spells to prevent yourself from running turn deficits.  The most substantive change to the metagame is therefore a buff to slow and a nerf to haste.  (I'm not complaining; I'm just curious about this patch.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on September 18, 2017, 11:10:34 PM
Here are the planned changes for 142.
 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on February 14, 2018, 08:20:51 AM
As you may know by now, we have been discussing mostly over Discord about balance. I wanted to (re)ignite some discussion here as well, because I realize instant messaging is not something everyone prefers to and because of this, the forums shouldn't be left out of it like they have been for the past year or so. I feel that the input here is just as valuable as Discord’s.

Now, where to start... I think I will just go with what's coming in mind for now. Will do a more organized post later because there's so much info scattered in the chat, I'm not searching for this right now.

The latest talk we've had is to just do away with Mimes completely.

There seems to be agreement about this so far. Being something recent, it's not concrete and still up for discussion. Here are the arguments I can think of in favor of their removal. Let me know if I missed anything.


Female Mystic Knight gets replaced with Assassin.

To anyone familiar with the Mystic Knight class, it’s known that female Mystic Knights aren't exactly good at using their own skillset due to it being based on PA. Better just use a male to churn out big damage with the elemental attacks. As for the rest of the skillset, even if it was based on MA or something else, it would hardly matter. While this could be remedied by, for example, basing the power of Spellblade on both PA and MA, we think it's better to just turn them into something different. This hasn’t been talked about in a while, but here is a picture that summarizes everything. Credit to A.J. (Simmon) for the idea, and many others for helping balancing it.


(Getting sleepy, took longer than I thought to type up the Mime arguments. Will add more tomorrow if I have time.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Zotis on July 04, 2018, 04:55:42 AM
I'd rather keep Mimes and just nerf them if they're too OP.  Maybe go back to reducing their equipment options like they used to be.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: White Knight Wiegraf on August 31, 2018, 06:26:15 PM
For those who haven't been keeping up, be sure to check out the changelogs. Mimes are still around and are most likely here to stay. At least, a lot more than what my previous post was indicating.

Speaking of which, there's a good probability of a tournament coming soon that will revolve around Mimes. In anticipation of this, a minor update will come to adjust Mimes a bit.

- No more shields, but C-EV raised back to 30. This reverts changes all the way back to version 139.
- Base MP is almost doubled, because they now consume MP and desperately need more.
- Base PA and MA multipliers increased to 140, which is 11 for male and female, respectively.
- Also, Raiton will no longer hit the caster. This fixes the part where you are forced to absorb it to use it effectively, which makes no sense, especially for the Ninja class.