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Messages - Dominic NY18

1
Final Fantasy Tactics / FFT's on Android now too
February 17, 2013, 01:38:42 am
Square Enix is apparently continuing their mobile push, because FFT (and specifically, WOTL) has arrived on Android, at least in Japan so far, though I'd guess other versions of it aren't far behind.

The big change this time around? Further enhanced visuals


There's more screenshots of the new visuals located on Famitsu. To my (admittedly untrained) eyes, it looks pretty good and, assuming the game doesn't have any major issues, I'm looking forward to trying it on my Nexus 4.
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The Lounge / Re: Desktop Thread!!!!
August 19, 2012, 12:20:57 am
My current OS X desktop:

3
Awesome. I might dig out my PSP Go for this.
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News / Re: All Hail Elric!
June 26, 2012, 09:58:43 pm
Dom approves (not that my approval matters...)
5
Quote from: Fenrir90 on May 05, 2012, 06:09:44 pmMany of the gamers where either shun, flamed, ridiculed, etc, for posting that they did not understood the plot due to the script's choice of words by the very same people who enjoyed the script. This was years ago. These gamers in turn got so annoyed and started posting that the PSP version simply sucks, etc in revenge. They also started trolling. I don't blame them, they received much shit.

Well, I don't want to get into the whole "What the real name of said language is called" ordeal. So, I refer to it as old English. Old English to me is anything that's no longer in use by the general public. Simple classification, and not complicated to understand. Yeah, I know its generalization... but I'm not an expert in the English language either. But I do quite well in English.


I've never come across anyone being ridiculed/flamed/shunned for not liking the script or understanding it. Then again, I can't think of anyone who said they had trouble understanding it (aside from you). Of course, I've only frequented GameFAQs in the past and this forum, so it's not exactly a representative sample size (and we're both speaking anecdotally anyway).

Anyway, you could just as easily get across the same thing by saying WOTL uses anachronistic terms, phrases and conventions. Sure, by your definition, "Old English" is just the use of language conventions that are no longer being used, but to me "Old English" refers to this:

Hwät! we Gâr-Dena in geâr-dagum
þeód-cyninga þrym gefrunon,
hû þâ äðelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scêfing sceaðena þreátum.

(Translation)
Lo! the Spear-Danes' glory through splendid achievements
The folk-kings' former fame we have heard of,
How princes displayed then their prowess-in-battle.
Oft Scyld the Scefing from scathers in numbers...


Which is different from Elizabethan English/"Ye Olde English"/Shakespearean/Early Modern English/etc.:
Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.
Amen.


It's the King James's Version of the Lord's Prayer, which is admittedly not the best example because I've heard it uses deliberate old-fashioned phrases at times, but was the first non-Shakespeare example to come to mind (and the only one I could really find)


Which is kind of different from this:
Delacroix: I see Gaffgarion's sword was no match for his words. Then again,
perhaps the fault lies with his adversary. Beoulve blood is not given to spill
easily. Even when thinned with that of a courtesan, it would seem.

But enough is enough. Your intrusions overstay their welcome. Leave the
auracite, and then leave Lionel. A generous offer, and my last.

Ramza: Where is Lady Ovelia?

Delacroix: You mean to free her? What then? You've turned your back on your
house. A man cannot prosecute a war alone. Forget this bootless struggle. Think
you mere -will- enough to see you victorious? Even will needs force, and you
have none.

Ramza: Tell me where the princess is!


You can call it what you want, but I think you're just inviting people to misunderstand you because "Old English" has a common meaning at odds with the way you use it.

Quote from: Pickle Girl Fanboy on May 05, 2012, 08:05:29 pm
Yeah, but it's more like institutional jack-assery than them being screw-ups.  Somewhat like the crap that infantry soldiers, Secret Service agents, and other such elite units get into when they have lots of stand-by time, and of course everyone's talking about everyone else behind their back.

Their drinking habits (and the seriousness with which they take their drinking) reinforces this theory, I think.

They just seem like normal guys (and a gal), working an extraordinary job.  Even their catch phrases ("That's the will and spirit of the Turks!" and "Believe it") demonstrate that they are extraordinary by what they do, not in and of themselves.


Agreed. I was pointing out how if they were originally intended to be comic relief, there's still vestiges of it in the way they come off at times.
6
Quote from: Kaijyuu on May 04, 2012, 06:47:57 pm
A "bad" localization IS something that one doesn't like. There isn't an objective measurement to differentiate a "good" localization from a "bad" one. The only objective measurement is literal accuracy (which we agree isn't inherently a good thing).


Really now? Clarity isn't an objective measure of a "good" localization vs. a "bad" one?

Anyway, I think we're just disagreeing over this because I think that clarity and accuracy (as I defined it earlier) are more important that style in a localization , and I didn't quite get that across the way I meant to. But yeah, whether one considers a localization "good" or "bad" is somewhat subjective in the end.

(obviously, I feel that WOTL has the better localization despite its flaws)

QuoteThe Final Fantasy Anthology game set for the PS1 is the terrible translation. They actually did a mostly good job for the GBA one, so don't check out that one if you're looking for horribleness.


Yeah, I've played FF5 Advance and enjoyed that translation. I'm definitely going to see if I can find a script of the Anthology version.


Quote from: Fenrir90 on May 04, 2012, 07:02:45 pm
I always enjoy reading stuff like this. I lol with that part (Lightning's real name). Éclair (food) didn't cross my mind when I read it, Éclair is pretty much lightning/thunderbolt in French. Fits quite well with her nickname, don't you think?


It does fit her. This was a perfect example of a necessary change. An English speaker with no knowledge of French would likely think of the pastry before thinking about lightning when seeing that word.

QuoteWhen some people/gamers think the plot is complicated when it's actually not. I first played this game and understood the plot. It was pretty much straight forward. Oh, by the way. English is not my first language, French is. FFT's plot ain't that complicated, all we here know the plot is not that complexe. I've read books that have more complicated plots than this game. The plot is rather simple (or maybe above simple and not overly complicated), and we all know that. You don't need to have a PhD to understand it. But tell that to the confused 15 year old kid (game is rated for Teen) who never heard/played FFT before and it's his first time playing through it. Of course, us veterans have no problem with the story since we all know the story by hard. Try playing WOTL from their eyes and tell me if it won't be complicated for you to understand. This is what I consider a "bad localization".


Anecdotally, most of the people I've seen complaining about the script don't actually complain about comprehensibility. Usually it comes down to disliking the style of dialogue, the name changes, or both.

I can see how a non-native English speaker might have trouble, but I'm not sure your average native English speaker who's literate would have trouble understanding the script.

QuoteAs a translator, he should know what it feels like to play a game with such a translation. Obviously, not everyone is verse/educated in the Elizabethan language. He should have put himself in the gamer's shoes (common folks) before deciding on doing that. Curiously, I wonder if he'd even played WOTL and if he enjoyed his re-translation. I doubt he ever played the game, the interviewer should of ask him if he played it. Games are suppose to be fun, but I didn't find WOTL fun at all. The text killed it for me. Your suppose to read a story and understand it as you go along, not spend minutes to try to decipher until you grasps what the characters are saying. Many people who likes the new script seem to fail to understand this concept. Not everyone knows the Elizabethan language. My first language is French, I learned about Shakespeare and his plays/the Elizabethan language during College English classes. Not everyone is born English, and not everyone knows or are aware of old English (Shakespeare or not). North America is English, not Elizabethan English. WOTL = "bad localization" in my honest opinion. It would of been a different story if there was a choice within the game between the Elizabethan language or the "modern" English. Many European games have multiple language on their games that can be selectable at the beginning. Why not this one? Both worlds are happy. There are more people verse in modern English than the niche Elizabethan language. I'll go look for a French version of WOTL to see if there is any. Just though of this when writing this part.


Well Elizabethan English is just another name for Early Modern English (specifically, a late version of it)
Early Modern English Grammar

Take a look at Early Modern English pronouns, specifically the second person pronouns. Words like "thou, thy/thine, thee, ye" were common in Elizabethan English, but they're archaic in Modern English. They're also non-existant in WOTL. The same goes for Early Modern English's verb tenses.

I'm not an expert in Early Modern English, but I know WOTL is not an example of it. The King James Bible is an example of it, and I don't see the similarity between that and WOTL (outside of things it shares with Modern English).


Quote from: Pickle Girl Fanboy on May 04, 2012, 07:17:43 pm
IIRC, the Turks were going to be comedy relief in FF7 (like Biggs and Wedge in FF8), but they ended up being kinda badass too.  I think that was one mistake that was a good thing.


Then again, considering the way they act at some points in the game (outside of Gongaga and the Wutai sidequest come to mind), they still sometimes come off as comic relief.
7
Quote from: Kaijyuu on May 04, 2012, 08:47:53 am
What makes it bad in my opinion is it simply not flowing well. It is overly stylized to it's detriment.

The original game falls pretty much in the same spot in terms of quality in my opinion. It was terrible for different reasons than the WOTL one however: all the engrish, misspellings, and occasionally nonsensical lines is what sacrificed its flow.
I consider the original to be a little bit of both. The engrish is testament to them translating lines pretty much directly. Some things (like "zociac brave") are localizations though rather than direct translations.


Hmmm. I guess the reason I'm disagreeing with this is because while I understand the complaints about the style of WOTL's translation, I don't see how that translates into it being a "bad" localization vs. just a stylistic choice one doesn't like.

Quote
As for what translations "should" strive for, you'll have to define accuracy. Word for word accuracy is a terrible idea.

...

What I think should be strove for would be an accurate feel. Earthbound is a really good example, as they had to rewrite all the various puns and jokes littered through the game to make sense to western audiences and still retain the wacky humor. They succeeded quite well.


I meant accuracy in the sense of what a piece of dialogue, a phrase or term is meant to convey. In this sense, I'd never call a word-for-word translation "accurate", since you'd likely end up sacrificing clarity when doing so, or the dialogue comes out sounding strange or stilted.

For example, Abandon vs. Reflexes. The first is a direct translation, but "Reflexes" gives us a better idea of what the ability does.

(I actually think WOTL does falter somewhat in this regard in a few places, but for a different reason. The names for the Mystic Arts spells (Yin-Yang Magic) were too overwrought IMO. They have some relation to what the spells do, but there were perfectly reasonable alternatives they could have gone with that would have been instantly recognizable to anyone who's played a recent FF game while more clearly conveying what the spell does. It's especially glaring because that's exactly what they chose to do with the new names for Beowulf's spells).

But the above is ultimately the reason I'd disagree about the two translations sucking equally. There's none of the ambiguity in WOTL that pops up all too often in the original. I'd have preferred a more toned-down style for WOTL. FF4 DS uses a similar style of dialogue, but it's far more subtle and IMO, nails it better than WOTL. But style aside (and I think people tend to exaggerate WOTL's style, but that's another discussion), WOTL is clearer than the original without sacrificing the "feel" of the game, which puts it ahead in terms of quality.

I do agree with you overall about what a localization should strive for (seems like we might be saying the same thing in different ways).

Quote
First off, "prose" is an umbrella term for anything that isn't poetry. My post is written in prose. So when I say the prose is wonky, I mean the word choice is bad.

FF6's GBA translation is the latest one I remember, mainly due to trying to add speech patterns to characters that just seem weird (also fanboy nitpicks like Atma -> Ultima). FF5's first official translation was even worse, with the infamous pirate accent for Faris. Most games are adequate, though; I had no problems with FF10's translation. I haven't played any recent Squeenix games so I can't comment on anything relatively new.


I know what prose means, especially as compared/contrasted with verse  :cool:.

Anyway, I haven't played FF6 Advance in years, so I can't really comment on it. This is the umpteenth time I've heard FF5's PS1 translation mentioned as being terrible though. I should probably read it sometime (if I can find it).
8
Quote from: Pickle Girl Fanboy on May 03, 2012, 04:58:13 pm
Go read Alex Smith's VS script.  It has some old English thrown in once in a while to spice things up, but that's it.  It's nothing compared to the sludge of archaic poetry you have to wade through in WOTL, before it clicks and you vaguely understand what someone's trying to say.

Tom Slattery tried to mimic Alex Smith, and he failed completely.  While PS1 FFT doesn't make much sense at times because it was poorly translated, WOTL makes about the same amount of sense because Tom Slattery sucks dicks.


I'm guessing you're commenting on how comprehensible the localizations are with the bolded? If so, I'd just say that the original localization really can't be considered as comprehensible as the WOTL localization, no matter what one might think about the style of WOTL's localization.

Quote from: Kaijyuu on May 03, 2012, 08:41:41 pm
Hrm, after thinking about it for a bit I've distilled my dislike of Square and Squeenix's translation conventions.

First rule is that bad localizations are inferior to direct translations, which are inferior to good localizations. "Zodiac Brave" is an example of a good localization being superior to a direct translation.
Second rule is that legacy localization conventions are risky. An example of it done badly is everything using FF7's terminology. An example of it done well would be all the Mario enemy names.
Third rule ties both those together. Names, terminology, etc needs to fit the game's setting, not be morphed to fit a series standard. "Esper" works great for FF6. "Aeon" works great for FF10. If Final Fantasy had adopted "esper" for all the summoned monsters, FF10 would be stuck with an inferior name for its summons. Fortunately they didn't.

My main problem is that some localization conventions I deem crap (such as the spell names) have become legacy conventions applied to every game. I doubt that's any one translator's fault, and of course I admit the subjectivity of it all (some people really like those silly spell names). Other problems, like FFT's second translation being filed under "bad localization" in my opinion, are problems limited to only one game.


Hmmmm. My questions to you then are:

- what makes WOTL's translation a "bad localization"?
- where does the original game fall on your scale?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you'd consider the original translation as being a direct one, and therefore superior to the new one? If that's the case, I disagree because any localization should strive for accuracy above all else, and the original fails compared to WOTL in that regard.

As an aside, what other SE games have wonky prose? You mentioned that the prose in their recent games bother you, but aside from WOTL and maybe FFIV DS, I can't think of any recent SE games that use anything other than plain Modern English prose.

Quote from: Fenrir90 on May 04, 2012, 12:29:51 am
Thanks for sharing this Dominic NY18, that was quite an interesting read.

...

PS: I like Shakespeare's works (his plays, his sonnets, etc), quite interesting and entertaining even if it's written in Ye Old English. FFT is not a god damn play and certainly does not contain any poetic crap in the original material. That, I am certain off.


While I see how the script can make people think of a (bad) imitation of Shakespeare or "Ye Olde English", but honestly the script in WOTL isn't nearly as close to Shakespeare or Early Modern English (what people are usually referring to when they say "Ye Olde English for anyone wondering). This is more of a nitpick of mine then anything else because it's harder to talk about the script when it's simply dismissed as being pseudo-Shakespeare.

I'm not picking on you specifically with the above though. It's just that it tends to come up whenever this topic is brought up.

Anyway, I'm glad you found it interesting. Whatever you think of Slattery's work, I thought it was interesting to get some insight into the localization process (I can't be the only one who chuckled a little at the story behind Lightning's real name, right?)
9
Stumbled across this yesterday while wasting time randomly browsing Siliconera's website.

Interview with Former Square Enix Translator Tom Slattery

It's worth a read for some pretty interesting insights into the localization process. It's even more interesting because he was involved in localizing many of SE's recent titles, including some re-releases (Final Fantasy VI Advance, Final Fantasy IV DS, etc.).
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Quote from: Archaemic on February 24, 2012, 04:21:11 pm
I've heard that rumor. Unfortunately, I don't have any friends who also have a copy of this game, so I can't test it out.

...although, I DO have two PSPs, and the game is downloadable on PSN these days.


I've some ripped ISOs of the game somewhere on my laptop and three PSPs w/custom firmware. I'm interested in finding out if multiplayer was the issue
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Completed Mods / Re: Patch testing for WotL!
March 03, 2012, 12:29:50 am
Just tried both patches on a PSP Go running the 6.20 TN-D HEN, along with CWCheat and another plugin (NPLoader?) enabled. They both worked without any issues.

There's really nothing I can say but great job Archaemic!
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The Lounge / Re: Desktop Thread!!!!
February 25, 2012, 04:08:24 pm
For anyone who's interested, here's the cactuar wallpaper. Unfortunately, the highest resolution I could find was 1680x1050.
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The Lounge / Re: Desktop Thread!!!!
February 22, 2012, 10:31:10 pm
Here's my current main OS X desktop:

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Happy New Year y'all!!!!!!!
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The Lounge / Re: FFT's on iOS (Release Date 8/4)
December 21, 2011, 08:07:43 pm
So yeah, there was a recent update  (two actually). The second one added Retina Display support.

I think this screenshot speaks for itself:


Game still doesn't run like it should though...
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The Lounge / Re: Damn it, Squeenix!
December 13, 2011, 12:00:23 pm
I still haven't finished 13, so I won't really be checking for this any time soon anyway.
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FFT: Parted Ways / Re: FFT: Parted Ways Battle Logs
December 13, 2011, 01:03:18 am
I was going to comment on the crossdressing Freelancers in Gariland, but I see you're already going to take care of that. It's still funny nonetheless.

I'm considering recording my playthrough, since I'm fairly sure I have a computer that's actually capable of running both Fraps and ePSXe without choking.
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The Lounge / Re: Gamecube Emulator
December 11, 2011, 09:42:30 am
Try out some of the tips listed here: Dolphin Performance Guide

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The Lounge / Re: Gamecube Emulator
December 10, 2011, 01:07:07 am
Your CPU should be fine for handling GC games. I'm not too sure about the GPU, but Dolphin is more dependent on the CPU anyway, so it should be good enough. You might want to keep an eye on the resolution you run the game at though and lower it if performance isn't where you want it to be.
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The Lounge / Re: Gamecube Emulator
December 09, 2011, 11:00:52 pm
Keep in mind that to get the best results from Dolphin, you'll need a dual-core CPU running at at least 3GHz (for GC games anyway. Wii games are more intensive).