Final Fantasy Hacktics

Since I haven't been able to watch any matches for a while, that puts me completely out for having the final say for balance. Instead, I think the best method is for everyone to input what needs to be changed and work from there.

My only input would be to add a faith constant to both caster and target(s). The problem has been around since forever. The alternative would have team faith minimum. It's up in the air.

EDIT: I'm leaving this open until 8/11, which is when my exams are done, or 2 weeks.

EDIT2: Base version will be Raven's latest one.

Remove Initial haste from heretics ring, its powerful enough with just Innocent.

(One note: I have at least one more Arena fix to release since FDC finished his proper Oil fix and I have a few more errors I found that need fixing, so make sure you've got the absolute newest version when this thread's done, because it'll probably be at least something crazy like 1.3391 or some shit.)

Faith Constant > Team Faith Floor or Raising Floor Faith per Unit.  Faith Constant keeps the rules streamlined, and keeps the math streamlined between physical and magical, making balance easier.  Though, this means that Flame Rod, Thunder Rod, Ice Rod, White Staff definitely need to be dropped to 50% proc if this is done.  They're already pretty damn strong using the old Faith system since you're getting free Spells at 125% output, and a Faith Constant/etc will only raise their already rapetastically high damage.  Katon/Raiton/Suiton being Un-Faith and having skills/skillsets like Draw Out and Geomancy that are immune to both Brave and Faith may no longer be necessary once the Faith constant is set in, but that stuff can wait for a 1.35 I suppose.  I assume 1.34 will hopefully see MA be normalized against PA properly if the Faith constant is added, though, which'll help fix quite a few problems by itself.  (This includes the Rod/Staff one I mentioned previously, but reducing them to 50% still seems very prudent.)

The other thing to remember is that with a proper Faith floor, you may not want Flare capping out at 70v70 500+ damage anymore... weaker skills become far better since their 70v40 "expected" damage jumps up SIGNIFICANTLY.

Gonna compile a far-shortened and better organized version of a bunch of stuff either FDC or I mentioned in the Stats/Abilities thread and the Items thread since we both generally agree with everything the other said and one well-organized post is simpler than two.  He'll probably supplement on whatever I miss.  I'll keep my explanations here sparse since they're already presented by at least one of us in the aforementioned threads.  I'll organize suggestions by Job Class or Gear Type for simplicity.

MECHANICAL CHANGES:

Only two suggestions, so no Spoiler tags.  Reaction Rate really should be Brave+Faith/2, so that you're not encouraged to just go 70/40 on your melee units, and so that your Wizards and co aren't on the short end of the stick when they try to do the same by going 40/70.  It'd still allow you to customize how often your Reactions go off, unlike a flat rate, but getting a 70% rate would require 70/70.  The other idea is to have the rate be Br+Fa-40.  This way 40/40 results in 40% still, 70/40 or 40/70 results in 70%, and 70/70 (the ultimate risk, arguably) results in 100%.

Either is fine by me... but honestly, kinda leaning toward the latter because I like the wider range of customization options.  It just needs to be tied to both statistics, though.

Secondly, Reflect (Status) should have its CT set to 0, and all sources set to Initial: Reflect (Reflect Mail, Ryozan Silk currently, plus suggesting reinstating of Reflect Ring), so that it fades on death, similar to Berserk.  Contrary to popular belief, Reflect is actually pretty strong.

Also, I'll keep mentioning it till it happens - please add things like Absorb ignoring Weak/Half. into the Mechanical Changes in the Master Guide.  I have literally not run into a single person besides myself and maybe FDC who knew about these kinds of changes so far because the only place you can find them is in cobweb-filled sections of Arena's changelogs and not anywhere someone would actually give a shit to look.

JOBS:







































GEAR:

(I won't be listing gear I think is fine as-is for the sake of brevity.)

Before beginning, I again say you should utilize Pride's ASM for an MP-Regen status set to 1/8th MP, written over the top Status slot, and use it as an Always: innate for some pieces of gear.  It'd let you introduce some new items here and there using empty slots.  I suggest this because it would stop people from being so heavily reliant on Move-MP UP to get MP, allowing mages to branch out some more and try setups they couldn't before because their Move slot and a fourth of their JP was essentially /always/ tied to Move-MP UP, even in its shitty 5% form.  I highly recommend at least one mage-weapon and one accessory giving this "Refresh" status for this reason.







STATUSES:

Haste - CT to 48
Think that summarizes everything from every post FDC and I made in those two threads + some stuff we forgot.

I disagree on four points.
A) We should keep insult.  It's not very usable, but it's still usable against more than just mages (but less than Don't Act).
B) Dispel Magic should go to mediator as a Talk Skill formula.
C) Lancers are fine at initial 9 SPD, except for jumping.  Lancers would be only good for jumping at 8 SPD, though.  They'd be inferior to Paladin in every way except that their skillset is the best jumping skillset (while with RAven's edits, Chivalry > Jump).  Even if you can optimize the effectiveness of jump, it's still a technique that would be used once every few turns.
D) The existing system is fine if we had a faith floor.  Since I don't like the fury system to begin with, I don't see the need to turn faith into a mirror copy of fury.  I even more strongly object to the idea of subordinating every kind of damage/healing/status infliction rate to Fury or Faith.

Cachusha would be fine if it simply did nothing but grant 80 HP/80 MP.  As a monk-only item, it helps monks that use cover fire/ninjitsu/grand cross very well.

In general, several things are true.
1) Elemental attacks are too easily absorbed/nulled.  No unit, even if he tries, should be able to absorb/null more than 4 elements (right now, it's 7 or 8).
2) Fire/Ice/Lightning attacks are well represented and dangerous.  Water attacks in the form of whale whisker and suiton actually hurt.  Earth attacks in the form of kiku/earth slash are quite dangerous as well.  The remaining three elements, however, run into issues.
a) Holy element really has two attacks.  Holy and Grand Cross + Excalibur (which is actually inferior to Grand Cross + Ice Brand or Kikuichimoji).
b) Wind element really has no attacks.  Heaven's Cloud doesn't do damage (it's outclassed in range by kiku/koutetsu, status by Muramasa, and damage by Chiri), Silf doesn't do damage, and geomancy is hardly a given.  The wind elemental weapons (9 WP katana, a knife, and a ninjato) are mostly jokes.
c) Dark element really only has % HP attacks.  However, Bio was loved because it was non-elemental.  It actually becomes weaker if it can be absorbed, though coherence requirements suggest Bio3 should be darkness elemental.

Hence, we need more Wind and Dark elemental skills.  Holy could use an AoE spell.



This way, summoner only gets the elements black mage does not.

Since I essentially ate up tornado's slot,



This should make scholar a bit more compact and useful a skillset.

Speaking of elemental variance, ninja needs a skillset that's easier to use on ninja than monk.  I personally suggest swapping the MP growth of ninja with that of monk.



Doing this obviously means that flails now need to be wind/dark/water elemental rather than fire/lightning/water.

And cluttered skillsets brings us to Thief and Archer.

Easy (if a bit lazy) Lancer solution:

Base SPD is 8.

Dragon Whisker and Obelisk give +0 SPD and their current bonuses.
Other Spears (Holy Lance, Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan) give +1 SPD
Javelin gives +2 SPD.

Jumpers will only ever use Dragon Whisker or Obelisk, because the rest are better for attacking.  This way you still get 9-10 SPD on non-Jumping Paladins, but Jumpers can still get the 8 they need.  I know there's more unused Spear slots, so an effectless Spear with +1 SPD could also be added if someone wants a Dragon Whisker analogue for 9 SPD.

Heaven's Cloud really does need a buff of some kind.  Ninjatos in general outside of Hidden Knife and maybe 1-2 others need more WP.  Right now their WP barely surpasses Daggers and Daggers generally have better effects.  They need more DPS overall if they want to compete since most things that can use one can use both.

Can't agree with giving Dispel Magic to Mediator.  Let Oracle keep it, and give Mediator 1.3's two-sided version that's essentially Dispel+Esuna.  Mediators have tons going for them compared to Oracles, they shouldn't take more of Oracle's stuff than necessary, especially since the main purpose of this change is the OCD-need to have it properly cancel Innocent and not one of balance.  As for Insult / Blind Rage, the other reason is that anti-Berserk really needs to come off Stigma Magic / Esuna or else Berserk-users are basically pidgeonholed in terms of status healing.  Leaving Insult and Blind Rage would mean that Berserk is a non-curable debuff that backfires half of the time... and again, if you actually look at all the teams, I can only think of one team that's ever actually used Insult because it's not worth using, especially since you can get Don't Act in the exact same skillset and not risk it backfiring.  I can't think of a single reason I would ever, ever willingly buy Insult over any of the other usable Talk Skills, myself.  Its good for baiting like Pokemon's Taunt, but since its AI Battles, the chances of backfiring are just far too great for me.

If we're missing on variety of supports, we can also restore Concentrate as a buyable support.  In this patch (where evasions are generally fairly low), Concentrate < Attack Up.

EDIT: If we allow monkeygrip, we might be forced to, actually.  Defender + Escutcheon II + Mantle + Abandon yields a crazy amount of P/M-EV.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 26, 2011, 04:55:42 am
If we're missing on varieties of supports, we can also restore concentrate as a buyable support.  In this patch (where evasions are generally fairly low), concentrate < Attack Up.

This is true too.  It gives Abandonwhores a counter, but general evasion isn't usually above 35%, so Attack UP will have more consistent yields.  On thought, it should come back.  More options aren't particularly bad in an Arena-oriented game.

400 JP, buyable on... Squire?  Thief has Move +1 and Ninja has both Two Swords and Overwhelm for "Good" R/S/M, so putting it on one of those is just too centralizing.  Archer could work, but it has Speed Save for a "Good" R/S/M.  Squire in comparison, even with my suggestion of moving one of Caution/Awareness to it, really doesn't have a "Good" Support or Reaction, so it's a perfect fit.  Monk is an alternative, but again, it has HP Restore as a "Good" R/S/M and the "Good" things should really be spread out a bit when possible.

1)  Scorpion Tail feels too strong.  Raven's solutions seem fine.

2)  Platina Dagger's proc feels too high.  25% would be more in line for how much damage it can really do.

3)  The Koutetsu Draw Out feels a bit much right now.  3 AoE + decent damage/healing + blind.  Maybe scale it back down to 2 AoE?

4)  Hidden Knife gives innate concentrate without using up the support slot.  Does it really need +1 speed too?

Something just came up that I need to work on, so I'll finish this later.

QuoteI even more strongly object to the idea of subordinating every kind of damage/healing/status infliction rate to Fury or Faith.

Agreed.  The effects of Fury and Faith should be kept separate.  I kind of like the idea that both combined affect reaction skill proc rate, though.

This isn't really a problem per se, but when there is a crazy amount of back and forth due to healing, it's kind of annoying.  IMO, the more options to shut down the enemy's defense, the smoother and faster a match will run.  While berserk may not be more desirable than say don't act, I do still feel it serves a purpose.  As you mentioned, you bait the enemy, instead of running away.  Also, the AI will be pretty dumb, in certain circumstances.  It wasn't uncommon for even this tournament for an archer or a chemist to shoot at a wall.  There are other benefits as well.  It lasts longer.  With don't act, the worst that happens mostly, is the enemy runs away, and it wears off very quickly.  So with berserk, you can at least bait, with a long infliction time (well, until healed or dead more or less).  It's obviously better suited in the hands of a human player, but, as I mentioned, the more options to shut down annoying heal spam, the better, IMO.  Another under utilized skill was Zombie, in this same note.  So many teams relied on healing and items, and zombie effective kills  both of those, as well as ressurection.  It was under utilized.

I agree that Reflect is powerful, it's been under utilized in the current tournament.  If you look at the most dangerous spells, most of them are reflectable.  I had equip armor on my oracles in the vampire hunters team, and they were essentially protected against negative status ailments (magical) and all the dangerous spells that it seems 90% of the board employed (flare, and holy, and so on).  To be honest, part of me likes that.  It's nice to have an option to shut down most team's "go-to" attack spells, and promotes diversity and strategy.  As long as Reflect Mail is kept unchanged, I am fine with that.

Re: scorpion tail, I agree that the WP should be lowered.  However, keeping with the spirit of the original game, add a small random damage calculation to the equation.  I would recommend something like 10%.  So a scorpion tail at 11 WP with a wielder of 10 PA, for example, would do between 99 and 121 damage, 110 being the base.  The problem I get with the original formulas were that they sucked, and the lowest damage was more common.  Here, you keep the potential for one of the strongest weapons, and ofset that a bit with a small random damage calculation.  I mean, it's already got 50% poison proc, on top of the strongest flail WP, too.  I feel this would balance it out a bit more.

Maximizing damage, let's say at 11 WP with 14 PA and Attack Up, it would hit between 184 and 224.  I would even take it possibly to 10 WP, using this calculation, but that's just me.  Two handed, it still has the potential to two shot more or less all units, even at minimum damage.

A few things.

1) It basically sounds like you just said "I have ADHD and hate games that aren't hyperaggro and decided instantly."  If we obeyed that, we'd be the next YGO, and the metagame would be terrible.  Back and forth healing is what puts pressure on you to build more than just an aggro force and actually do something well thought-out if you want to win through power.  Also, I find it far more boring to watch videos where the winner is decided in a couple of minutes, which is basically the case here.

2) Your whole point falls to one thing - no one, save one person on a team that I'm pretty sure dates back to before 1.30, even runs Insult.  Do you know why FDC's proposal to drop a number of Summons isn't a big deal even if entirely unnecessary?  No one uses most of them.  You know why his dropping of Quake and huge change to Tornado are fine even if the former is again not particularly necessary?  No one uses them.  Know why it's okay he wants to maul up Bad Luck, Kagesougi, and delete Heretic and Execute despite the deletions serving no actual purpose?  No one uses any of them.  You know what else no one uses? Insult.  You're literally pulling arguments from anywhere you can think of to support a skill going completely unused, which even in FDC's own cases is enough for him to delete a myriad of skills.  Them's the facts - No. One.  Uses.  It.  The other skills are just better.  Even in the sense of cutting off healers - healers aren't always squishy units that don't do a lot of damage in Arena, may people run their healing on units like Lancers and Paladins that don't die, and Berserking those can end very, very badly, on top of again Berserking a unit with a fairly moderate MA-based weapon... like a Bard.  I'm sorry, all the facts make you lose.  It's not worth it, and very obviously not worth it, as I'm pretty damn sure more people run THREATEN than Insult.[/i]  The other Berserk skill, Blind Rage, is on the exact same class Zombie is on anyway, so you don't even lose anything removing it there.

3) The only thing that'd "change" on Reflect Mail with what I said is the fact those Oracles would lose Reflect on death... which if you're shutting down a huge chunk of their offense, probably shouldn't even happen.

And FDC, the Fury system gives better Min-Maxes than the current Faith system does.  Currently:

Say we have a unit that can run Flare and 25 MA after Magic Attack UP, etc.  We want Flare to do... 500ish 70v70 damage.  That should kill just about anything without a piece of damage reduction in place.  You need a Y of 40 for that, and it'll do 490.  At 40v40, it'll do 160, and at 70v40, it'll do 280.  Your expected damage is just 40 points over half what you want the target damage to be.  This is what makes magic so erratic in hit rate and output, and what makes running 40 Faith so strong - you essentially half the power of damaging mages, forcing them to have obscenely high Y values and send each other into oneshot fests or run around with Faith Rods.  Now, to get the same-ish 70v70 damage with Faith+35, you use a Y 18.  This results in 496 damage, essentially the same end-mark.  40v40 is now 253, and 70v40 is now 354.  The difference is that running 40 Faith is only good for reducing damage by some more than a quarter, instead of just under a half.  Hell, in this situation - the new 40v40 is the old 70v40.  This puts a lot of control on mage damage.  It works on hit-rates too.  Let's say you want a skill that always hits on 70v70 regardless of MA, as long as there is no evasion.  MA*2+200 base works out well for this.  We'll assume the most awful of awful Lancers is using it too, so the final value is 206, which results in exactly 100% on 70v70.  On 40v40, this is 32%, and on 70v40 this is 57%.  ...Again, nearly a 50% difference between the first two values.  With Faith+35... your formula becomes MA*2+85 (final value 91) for exactly 100% on 6 MA and 70v70.  40v40 becomes 51% and 70v40 becomes 71%, meaning the difference in yields on hit rate that's directly comparable to the yields on damage, so the math holds true for all.  This actually makes magic consistent, and is just downright better than the vanilla Faith system, whether you "like" it or not.  The facts show this pretty clearly... so I must say you entire hatred of Fury is unfounded in terms of mathematics.  If it's doing something like "raising damage too high"... then someone didn't design around their modifier correctly.  That's all there is to it, and it's the fault of the patch maker, not the mechanic, because the mechanic quite clearly won't bloat anything you don't allow it to bloat by refusing to open WinCalc.exe.

This is the exact same thing I had to explain to FFMaster when he thought he'd end up with even larger damage variances by switching to a Fury-like Faith system than keeping the current one.  He forgot the fact that he would be dealing with much smaller base numbers, and multiplying them by values much closer to their base-value, so the end result would be less insane variance, not more.  I actually think the end result is similar to a 50 Faith per-unit floor,  50 Faith just results in a slightly wider damage/hit margin, and less room to customize your characters.  If one of my two proposals for a new Reaction rate is also used, that room becomes pretty damn important, so conserving that space is good, since it'd keep magic in proper parity with physicals - a mere 50 Faith floor with one of those new Reaction rate systems means you get a higher reaction rate for hating magic than hating physical innately, and that's also a problem, and there's not much way to fix that outside of either performing weird obtuse math on Faith or biasing it in the opposite direction.  A Faith Constant is just the cleanest, best, and math-consistent solution since it does everything needed without impeding anything else we might want to change or affecting any rules.

Fine, that's your opinion, on how matches should proceed.  I was offering some suggestions.  You seem to have taken it personally, I thought this was an open forum to discuss ideas.

You're basically saying, let's remove a skill because no one uses it.  It's risky, yes, though not completely redundant.  At the moment, it's treated more as a beneficial status effect, though the AI doesn't treat it as such, which I guess is the only problem it faces in an AI tournament.  Maybe that's the problem.  If, for example, Berserk came with an automatic Haste effect (think Mad Rush in FFVIII), I would see it being used more as such, and far less debate over it's validity.  It's used for aggressive offensive units, but makes them dumber.

I'm also curious how people feel about a random damage calculation added to flails.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pm
Fine, that's your opinion, on how matches should proceed.  I was offering some suggestions.  You seem to have taken it personally, I thought this was an open forum to discuss ideas.

I'm a bitter person who quickly purges things that sound foul.  Don't take it personally.  Though if you notice, the vast majority of my suggestions would end up in a faster metagame.  Buffing mages and a Faith constant means tanking is far harder.  Far less chance of an all-encompassing defense and far less chance of having the exact skills needed to rebound because there are more threats you can actually acknowledge exist.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pmYou're basically saying, let's remove a skill because no one uses it.  It's risky, yes, though not completely redundant.  At the moment, it's treated more as a beneficial status effect, though the AI doesn't treat it as such, which I guess is the only problem it faces in an AI tournament.  Maybe that's the problem.  If, for example, Berserk came with an automatic Haste effect (think Mad Rush in FFVIII), I would see it being used more as such, and far less debate over it's validity.  It's used for aggressive offensive units, but makes them dumber.

If it added Haste and the AI decided to use it on an ally, they wouldn't discriminate melee or mage.

And it really is completely redundant.  Blackmail fills the same role better, at less risk, against more things, more accurately, and for less JP.  If you ever pick Insult instead you're probably doing something wrong.  As for simply removing a skill no one uses?  Yep.  And, unlike some of the skills FDC wants to delete like Heretic and Execute, this actually has a purpose beyond "no one uses it anyway" - Cancel: Berserk can be safely taken off status-healers so Berserker teams can run healers outside of the Item skillset.  ...Weren't you all for better aggro?  That's, erm, exactly what I'm trying to get for people here, the ability to make a wider variety of potentially powerful aggressive teams where right now you're pidgeonholed to some extent on your options.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pmI'm also curious how people feel about a random damage calculation added to flails.

Axes are already one-handed weapons that cover that and are in need of huge boosts or a new formula as it is despite having what's arguably the best random-formula you could give them.  And right now, the only problematic flail is Scorpion Tail and that's fixed by removing a single WP.  Why make their damage random?  It doesn't particularly seem to do anything beneficial except make flails suck more.

Actually, it does.  If you noticed, the weapon of choice for max damage was a dual wielded flail.  And we're considering it overpowered.  Not one axe was used, which you mentioned, was supposed to have instead fit that role.  Making it slightly random, still allows for potential max damage, but is offset by only working a % of the time, while still not crippling the weapon, and making it less over powered overall.  But I don't know.  There has to be something that makes axes more attractive, regardless.

Actually, here's another idea for flails.

10 WP, Elemental weapons with WP^2 damage and self-elemental boost (so damage = 120)
Holy Element/Boost Holy (Proc: Blind 50%)
Dark Element/Boost Dark (Proc: Poison 50%)
Wind Element/Boost Wind (Proc: Silence 50%)
Water Element/Boost Water (Proc: Slow 50%)

This way, it better services the classes that use flails (ninja and priest).

EDIT: As for axes, I would use them if their WP wasn't abysmal.  Right now, they are only worth using 2H, but the classes that use axes (Sq, Kn, Ge) each have better options, namely, crossbows, knight swords, and evasive shields + sword.

Personally, haste has been nerfed a little too much.  If the speed bonus is only 5/4x (while slow still halves SPD), can haste last at least 3/2x as long as slow?

Raven, I know full well the benefits of the constant system, but there is something to be said for not making the damage process on mages the same as the damage process on physicals (this holds true in general between any two similar classes of damage/status/defense in this game).  Making everything consistent (as well as arguing that decreased variance is always good) increases the rock-paper-scissors aspect of this game because it reduces the number of available means of defending against it.  (It's for the same reason why any Br/Fa setup allowing 100% reactions shouldn't be allowed; just using the average of (Br + Fa) / 2 seems less broken.)  Right now, the problem is more that the "effective" average damage/hit chance on magic is too low (except for things like flare/petrify, which are arguably too high) because top teams run 0 mages and 40 faith across 4 units.  The simplest way to stop this is to institute a faith floor.
Alternatively, FFM could create MA dependent unfaith spells.  The amount of ASM needed is about the same as instituting the Faith constant, and I can probably do either if FFM is too busy.

Quote
2)  Platina Dagger's proc feels too high.  25% would be more in line for how much damage it can really do.

3)  The Koutetsu Draw Out feels a bit much right now.  3 AoE + decent damage/healing + blind.  Maybe scale it back down to 2 AoE?

4)  Hidden Knife gives innate concentrate without using up the support slot.  Does it really need +1 speed too?

I'd have to disagree on all these points.  The point of the climhazzard dagger is a knife whose proc is the sole reason for existence.  This introduces the idea of variable offense, which is one thing S5 had that Arena doesn't have enough of, because it lessens determinism.  If one runs such a setup, it may lose on average, but it prevents anyone from building a perfect defense (or offense) since there's always still a good chance of losing.  (It's why I'm one of the few players who would actually prefer vanilla procs on geomancy, though I won't push it here.)
Furthermore, the platina dagger is only dangerous when it procs alongside a dual cutter or another platina dagger.  The chances of those 2x consecutive procs are 25% (assuming the dual cutter can't miss), and the unit classes that use these knives have poor staying power.  Very often, these daggers are actually being used to finish an already won fight (i.e. kill the last unit), which is a boon to video maker (less time) and the viewer (since they get to see a snappy finish).  The actual use of these daggers alone as tide-turners against half HP knights isn't nearly as likely.  If anything, if Raven gets his way with dual cutters, it shouldn't be usable with 2 Swords anymore, since the dual cutters would have an effective WP of 10-12.  That should cut out most of the "abuse", unless you consider the lone unit with two platina daggers.

Koutetsu right now outclasses heaven's cloud.  It has a comparable status effect and higher AoE.  Since it's the only 3 AoE draw out, and that's what makes it unique, that feature should be kept and blind should be dropped.

As for hidden knife, let's not forget that Auto: Transparent also adds some stupid features to the AI.  First, it draws in enemy fire onto a unit that probably has low HP.  Second, it causes the AI to spam the "Attack" option because it sees it as unevadable.  Just like the Platina Daggers, it adds some badly needed depth to classes that otherwise have skillsets that don't match their base stats.

Just read a lot of the suggested changes and a lot of which i read from raven makes a lot of sense. Paladin's should only have a skill set that helps them tank and be a HP giver i.e. transfusion. Dia moving to the priest skill set sounds like a good idea to me. It deals damage based on MA anyways and MA on a Paladin (even female) is pretty low for it to do enough damage (unless you're going for anti-charm/confusion but charm seems to be more apparent then anything else)

Ninjitsu elemental changes i'm fine with from fdc because ninjas tend to use elements other than fire/thunder/ice anyways plus they seem to be more dark based somewhat to an extent. though again it doesn't matter to me either way if katon/raiton/suiton stays the same or not. just what fdc suggests does make sense

For summons, I think leviathan and salamander should hit harder because the amount of damage they inflict is pitiful really. not many people would use leviathan or salamander anyways. sure the AoE is big but the damage is disappointing in my opinion. Watch ET vs Raven and see that leviathan only did 200 damage with faith status which isn't really a lot at all. compat might have something to do with it too but still, underwhelming damage IMO. Lich is fine as it is. Silf should do damage as well as don't act/don't move because relying on that just for the proc is not worth it really like fdc said. Odin I think should stay the same as a AoE instant death. death sentence wouldn't really fit Odin IMO. Or maybe what you can do is have it damage but had a chance to inflict death. non elemental. though whatever works is fine. Just no death sentence >_<

procs on the daggers i.e. platina dagger should be maybe 33% or 25% if it can only go down that far. whatever it takes to nerf it.

Hidden Knife I think is fine. Scorpion Tail non dual wielding is fine because if not then its like  "welcome to one shot heaven bitches!"

Draw Out seems fine to me, though I agree with the fact that koutetsu should be lowered back to AoE 2 because 3 is too large for it to be more of a popular choice than other DO's.

Lancers with base speed 8...well....would make them jump at better timing but they were meant to be faster than paladin's anyways and jump is the better skillset anyways between the two classes. that's why you have someone with 8 speed and have jump as a secondary so its fine either way really.

mediator's stats do need to be toned down a bit because they outclass almost every other MA user (except for scholar) andthey are just ridiculous to deal with like Raven said. though I wouldn't lower it too too much because that devalue their chances with talk skill. (But then again you can use talk skill on a secondary on another MA user so that solves it essentially) but if you're going to nerf mediator stats might as well re balance chemists stats so they are even. otherwise just keep them the same.

Other than that, I'm fine with whatever changes are made for 1.34

If you're changing the ninjitsu elements around PLEASE also change the names to match their new elements Nothing can confuse team building more than a dark element skill with a name that means Lightning.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 27, 2011, 03:02:51 am
Actually, it does.  If you noticed, the weapon of choice for max damage was a dual wielded flail.  And we're considering it overpowered.  Not one axe was used, which you mentioned, was supposed to have instead fit that role.  Making it slightly random, still allows for potential max damage, but is offset by only working a % of the time, while still not crippling the weapon, and making it less over powered overall.  But I don't know.  There has to be something that makes axes more attractive, regardless.

Actually, only Scorpion Tail is used for max damage because it's a Dual Wieldable Stone Gun.  12*12*1.34*1.5*2*1.05*TarFury, or 24*24*1.05*TarFury, or 604*TarFury.  The other Flails are honestly only marginally used, and only do 10*1.25*10 damage, because they're Element and Self-Boosted.  This becomes 10*1.25*10*1.34*1.5*2*1.05*TarFury, or 24*20*TarFury, or 504*TrFury.  Still a pretty penny, but still 100 less and far easier to block because it's element-based.  The main problem Flail is Scorpion Tail, who'll actually do roughly the same damage as the other three at 11 WP.  Changing the formula to a random one "fixes" the problem by nerfing every Flail, when only one Flail is the problem and the problem can be solved through one of two simple solutions.

Axes not being used is honestly in part because Axes have shitty WP, which is another thing I suggested fixing.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 am
Actually, here's another idea for flails.

10 WP, Elemental weapons with WP^2 damage and self-elemental boost (so damage = 120)
Holy Element/Boost Holy (Proc: Blind 50%)
Dark Element/Boost Dark (Proc: Poison 50%)
Wind Element/Boost Wind (Proc: Silence 50%)
Water Element/Boost Water (Proc: Slow 50%)

This way, it better services the classes that use flails (ninja and priest).

This works for me too if Ninja goes back to Dark/Wind/Water.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 amPersonally, haste has been nerfed a little too much.  If the speed bonus is only 5/4x (while slow still halves SPD), can haste last at least 3/2x as long as slow?

It already does.  It's not enough, though.  It should have 2x Slow's CT (or 48).  You'd get the same net-boost as old Haste if it runs its course, but the effect isn't immediate and devastating the way old Haste is, but instead more gradual and easier to fight against.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 amRaven, I know full well the benefits of the constant system, but there is something to be said for not making the damage process on mages the same as the damage process on physicals (this holds true in general between any two similar classes of damage/status/defense in this game).  Making everything consistent (as well as arguing that decreased variance is always good) increases the rock-paper-scissors aspect of this game because it reduces the number of available means of defending against it.  (It's for the same reason why any Br/Fa setup allowing 100% reactions shouldn't be allowed; just using the average of (Br + Fa) / 2 seems less broken.)  Right now, the problem is more that the "effective" average damage/hit chance on magic is too low (except for things like flare/petrify, which are arguably too high) because top teams run 0 mages and 40 faith across 4 units.  The simplest way to stop this is to institute a faith floor.
Alternatively, FFM could create MA dependent unfaith spells.  The amount of ASM needed is about the same as instituting the Faith constant, and I can probably do either if FFM is too busy.

The ASM for the Faith Constant is already done.  (Pride posted it.)

It's not about less variance - the numbers at 50 Fa per unit are honestly very close to what you'd get with a 50 Fa per unit rule.  You just get different math/mechanics for the sake of different math/mechanics with no gain and slightly harder to process numbers and an inhibiting of a Reaction system that checks both Br and Fa.  If anything, it's the 50 per unit floor that lowers variance - I only get 20 Faith points to customize my unit with instead of 30, which means twice as much if the Reaction rate goes off both Br and Fa.  Units are forced to look even more similar to each other.  Constant system lets you keep all 30 points of customization, get all the same benefits, get easier math, get a Reaction system with proper parity, etc.  ...There is actually no gain from a Fa floor over a Constant aside from not having to recalibrate numbers... but that's easy to do.  Current Y * .45 will give you the equivalent or very close to the equivalent of a Y in the old Fa system to what it should be in the new one.  The accuracy on that is actually really high.

I agree with leaving Kotetsu at 3 AoE and dropping Blind.  Blind is REALLY FUCKING POWERFUL now that it works, and once Mediator gets its come-uppin's and MA is properly normalized to PA (both of which will hopefully occur in 1.34), the entire Draw Out problem should fix itself.

Quote from: Barren on October 28, 2011, 08:54:41 ammediator's stats do need to be toned down a bit because they outclass almost every other MA user (except for scholar) andthey are just ridiculous to deal with like Raven said. though I wouldn't lower it too too much because that devalue their chances with talk skill. (But then again you can use talk skill on a secondary on another MA user so that solves it essentially) but if you're going to nerf mediator stats might as well re balance chemists stats so they are even. otherwise just keep them the same.

Chemists also could probably go with losing an MA point itself, if not a SPD point, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Though again, Mediator really shouldn't be balanced vs Chemist with how it's grown in Arena, its not really a support unit as much as its a carrier-class with access to some of the best status in the game these days.  I use a Support Mediator in Viper's, but that's a joke team for a reason.  I have no reason for that unit to not be a Main Gauche Chemist outside of "lolu."  Chemist is going to be a better Item-user than Mediator (and every other class) because of Innate Throw Item, and trying to force Mediator with Item to be equivalent is dumb, since even with less MA, Chemist is STILL the better choice for an Item-based healer.  Mediator has its own things it should be doing.  Just let it do what it needs to do.

It's like the confusing mess that's resulted from trying to make almost every weapon class work with both Two Hands and Two Swords when they're both essentially the same move.  It's nearly impossible to remember what the fuck works with what sometimes due to a design method that was literally pointless.  Trying to forcibly make these two classes equal as healers when only one is a proper healer-based class is dumb for the same reasons, and is (even now, as displayed) leading to its own dumb problems that should never exist.

The thing Mediator really needs to be better than Chemist?  ITS GODDAMN ROBES BACK.  I have no idea why they EVER lost their Robes.

EDIT: Just tossed "GIVE MEDIATORS THEIR GODDAMN ROBES BACK", my suggestion on how to make Lancers with 8 SPD be able to still fill their current roles (by means of all but two Spears augmenting SPD), and a couple other random discussed things into my original post as well for centralization purposes.

To be honest, the only thing that needs to be nerfed is mediator.

1) It should use robes again.  This being said, it doesn't need better MA than chemist since robes provide MA with HP.
2) Mediator should be the "tanky" unit capable of hybridized offense, so they don't need the extra speed point.  Thus, it becomes more offensive than chemist, but less able to serve the role of a chemist (fast sandbagging).
3) Considering the above suggestions are fairly substantive nerfs to mediator, mediator could actually keep its 4 move.  While we're on the topic of move, squire does not need 4 move with access to crossbows, innate 10 PA, and wish/yell/accumulate.  I'd rather see squires able to use shields again but have only 3 move.  Geomancers, however, right now are outclassed by squire in every way.  They could use innate 4 move.

Absorb Used MP right now isn't really that good.  Unlike MP Restore and Move-MP Up, which actively increase your MP, Absorb Used MP only slows the decline of your MP reserves (unless you habitually use moogle to heal the two units with Absorb Used MP, who run 70 fury and also know moogle or cure).  It's so weak right now that it can't even counter Witch Hunt the way Auto Potion does.  Thus, I propose that Absorb Used MP function like Auto: Ether; or that if any spell using MP hits, upon activation, Absorb Used MP heals a flat 30 MP to the user.
The proposed idea also has its own niche, when compared to MP Restore and Move-MP Up.
1) Unlike MP Restore, this works even on healing.
2) Unlike MP Restore, this doesn't restore much MP.
3) Unlike MP Restore, this counters Witch Hunt the way Auto Potion does.
4) Unlike Move-MP Up, this is more effective on physicals running Quickening/Accumulate/Ninjitsu.

I'm not sure if Mediator needs to lose the SPD point or not, but I'm not 100% against it.  The MA reduction is all that's needed for solving the immediate problem, at least.

I'll concur with Squires gaining Shields and going to 3 Move, and Geomancers going to 4 Move.  Geomancers should keep the Equip Shield Support as part of their skillset, though, especially if you follow my advocation of moving a few other things over to Squire.

Absorb Used MP essentially becoming Auto-Ether and recovering a static 30 MP when hit by an MP-costed move sounds good to me for offsetting Witch Hunt, since it's also generally usable and another good, quality Reaction for mages that decentralizes Move-MP UP.  Cost it at 300, leave it on Oracle, we're good to go.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 am
let's not forget that Auto: Transparent also adds some stupid features to the AI.  First, it draws in enemy fire onto a unit that probably has low HP.  Second, it causes the AI to spam the "Attack" option because it sees it as unevadable.

I feel like Transparent needs some sort of overhaul. As you said, it fucks with the AI a fair bit, and often the transparent unit has been hit (negating transparency) before it even has a turn to attack with 100% accuracy. I don't really know of a fix for this, but maybe transparency = +1move? Just a thought, feel free to poke holes in it because I didn't consider any of the effects really when I suggest it.

For the Fury/Faith reaction rate, how about [(Fury+Faith+30)/2]. This puts 70/40 and 40/70 units with a 70% reaction rate, and if you're making yourself vulnerable with 70/70, you get an 85% reaction rate. Again, just a thought.

I disagree, Pierce.  The rate of reactions does not need to be higher in Arena because reactions essentially are free turns that perform a limited action.  If this limited action is something the unit should be doing anyways, a 70% reaction rate is fairly powerful.  A unit like that deserves a high drawback.  (Fury + Faith) / 2 serves that purpose adequately.

Alright, exams done. If there is anything people agree/disagree or something extra they want, now is the last chance to put it in 134.

I don't mind Pierce's idea.  It's situationally free turns, but it encourages otherwise "bad" setups with a proportional reward and promotes mages actually having a Reaction skill, whether it's MP Restore or something else.  Right now, there's not much reason to have anything much other than MP Restore or nothing on them unless you're lucky enough to be able to afford something like Auto Potion, in which point what the fuck kind of spell-based mage are YOU running to have that much JP left?  Then again, I'm also in favor of more customization and more risk/reward options, which a more liberal Reaction rate allows. 

Not to say (Fury+Faith)/2 is bad, it's still a HUGE improvement.  Hell, I suggested it.  I just also favor more liberal setups where possible.

Also realizing with the Faith Constant, my Magic Gun WPs might be too high, so make sure you compute that damage.  13/14/15 on Bolt/Ice/Fire might be better initially because of how their floor damage has been buffed.

Current list of shit to do: Items
Classes
Abilities from Summoner and down
Implement ASM hacks

Changelog

MECHANICS

Faith Constant
Added new Proc hack(untested)

CLASSES

- Chemist loses 1 MA

ABILITIES
- Any ability with Faith has had their X/Y changed. Too many to list.

Basic Skill
- Accumulate now 0 CT
- Throw Stone now PA*3 Damage, 100% Cancel: Performing
- Heal now Cancels: Charm, loses Cancel: Berserk
- Ultima JP reduced to 350, Range increased to 5, CT decreased to 5, MP decreased to 30

Item
- X Potion JP reduced to 150

Chivalry
- All Chivalry abilities MP reduced by 4
- Transfusion JP reduced to 200
- Iron Will JP reduced to 100
- Magicward JP reduced to 100
- Counter JP reduced to 250
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 450
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 300

Snipe
- Greased Bolt now PA*5 Damage, 100% Add: Poison, Oil

Punch Art
- Chakra range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1
- Stigma Magic range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1, loses Cancel: Berserk

White Magic
- Cure 2/3/4 JP reduced to 100/150/200 respectively
- Raise 1/2 JP reduced to 100/200 respectively
- Reraise JP reduced to 100
- Regen JP reduced to 70
- Protect 2/Shell 2/Wall JP reduced to 200
- Holy JP reduced to 400

Black Magic
- Fire and Bolt 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 50/100/150/200 respectively
- Ice 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 60/120/180/240 respectively
- Poison JP reduced to 50
- Frog JP reduced to 150
- Death JP reduced to 200
- Teleport JP reduced to 300

Time Magic
- Short Charge JP reduced to 400
- Float(movement) JP reduced to 200

Summon Magic
- All summons get a flat 10 MP decrease except for Moogle, which gets a 3 MP decrease
- Moogle JP reduced to 50
- Shiva/Ifrit/Ramuh JP reduced to 100
- Titan/Leviathan/Salamaner JP reduced to 150
- Carbunkle remade to heal MA*6 MP, 5 MP cost
- Silf now deals F(MA*8) Wind damage, 20% Add: Don't Move or Don't Act
- Cyclops now Holy element
- MP Restore JP reduced to 450
- Half of MP JP reduced to 200

Steal
- Quickening now 0 CT
- Equip Light Blade JP cost decreased to 150

Geomancy
- Geomancy X increased by 1

Draw Out
- Kotetsu loses Add: Darkness

Ninjitsu
- Kagesougi now now 100% Add: Blind

Quote from: FFMaster on November 08, 2011, 03:27:33 amCLASSES

- Chemist loses 1 MA
- Mediator loses 2 MA, gains Robes

You missed probably the most important thing of this whole update.

Your attitude on iRC made me think you think we're fucking around and just want Mediators with Robes but their 12 MA is actually a problem because they're essentially the best at fucking EVERYTHING... and you go and reduce Chemist MA instead when their MA isn't even the problem.  >.>

If you read the whole post, you would have noticed that I'm going through it all, starting with abilities. Your very first post told to reduce Chemist MA by 1, so please go back through and refresh your memory. I am going through your post one change at a time. I don't care how important update X is to Y, doing it in order helps when I have to update every damn spreadsheet on my end, update Patcher for Faith system and Proc system and balance at the same time.

Oh.

I don't even remember writing that in my post, honestly.  I think it was just a random bit to appease the small crowd that goes "Chemists are better than Mediators!" even though Mediators are better than Chemists at doing everything besides using Item...

Though it's still probably a good idea.

Here is a list of all changes so far. I may complete the patch tomorrow if I feel up to it.

Changelog

MECHANICS

- Haste becomes 48 CT
- Reflect(status) CT now 0 (lasts until dispelled or death)
- Faith Constant added (all spells that originally used Faith now uses (CasF+35)*(TarF+35)/100000

CLASSES
- Chemist loses 1 MA
- Mediator loses 2 MA, gains Robes
- Geomancer move increased to 4
- Lancer loses 1 speed

ABILITIES
- Any ability with Faith has had their X/Y changed. Too many to list.

Basic Skill
- Accumulate now 0 CT
- Throw Stone now PA*3 Damage, 100% Cancel: Performing
- Heal now Cancels: Charm, loses Cancel: Berserk
- Ultima JP reduced to 350, Range increased to 5, CT decreased to 5, MP decreased to 30

Item
- X Potion JP reduced to 150

Chivalry
- All Chivalry abilities MP reduced by 4
- Transfusion JP reduced to 200
- Iron Will JP reduced to 100
- Magicward JP reduced to 100
- Counter JP reduced to 250
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 450
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 300

Snipe
- Greased Bolt now PA*5 Damage, 100% Add: Poison, Oil

Punch Art
- Chakra range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1
- Stigma Magic range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1, loses Cancel: Berserk

White Magic
- Cure 2/3/4 JP reduced to 100/150/200 respectively
- Raise 1/2 JP reduced to 100/200 respectively
- Reraise JP reduced to 100
- Regen JP reduced to 70
- Protect 2/Shell 2/Wall JP reduced to 200
- Holy JP reduced to 400

Black Magic
- Fire and Bolt 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 50/100/150/200 respectively
- Ice 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 60/120/180/240 respectively
- Poison JP reduced to 50
- Frog JP reduced to 150
- Death JP reduced to 200
- Teleport JP reduced to 300

Time Magic
- Short Charge JP reduced to 400
- Float(movement) JP reduced to 200

Summon Magic
- All summons get a flat 10 MP decrease except for Moogle, which gets a 3 MP decrease
- Moogle JP reduced to 50
- Shiva/Ifrit/Ramuh JP reduced to 100
- Titan/Leviathan/Salamaner JP reduced to 150
- Carbunkle remade to heal MA*6 MP, 5 MP cost
- Silf now deals F(MA*8) Wind damage, 20% Add: Don't Move or Don't Act
- Cyclops now Holy element
- MP Restore JP reduced to 450
- Half of MP JP reduced to 200

Steal
- Quickening now 0 CT
- Steal Accessory JP reduced to 150
- Equip Light Blade JP cost decreased to 150

Talk Skill
- Persuade X increased to 35

Geomancy
- Geomancy X increased to 2

Jump
- Jump JP costs redone across the board. Added Level Jump 6.

Draw Out
- Kotetsu loses Add: Darkness

Ninjitsu
- Tsumazuku now Dmg_(Weapon), 100% Cancel: Haste
- Kagesougi now now 100% Add: Blind

Sing/Dance
- All Songs/Dances JP increased to 200
- Cheer Song X increased to 33
- Battle Song X increased to 66
- Magic Song X increased to 66
- Polka Polka X decreased to 40
- Disillusion X decreased to 40
- PA/MA Save JP decreased to 400
- Brave/Faith UP JP decreased to 200

ITEMS

Weapons
- Chaos Blade gains 20 W-EV, gains Cancel: Reraise
- Battle Axe WP increased to 10
- Giant Axe WP increased to 11
- Slasher WP increased to 13
- Bizen Boat WP decreased to 9
- Murasame WP increased to 11
- Fire/Ice/Thunder Rods proc down to 50%
- Poison Rod WP increased to 10
- Scorpion Tail WP down to 11
- Range of magic guns increased to 6
- Blaze Gun WP up to 17
- Glacier Gun WP up to 15
- Blast Gun WP up to 14
- Battle Dict WP increased to 13
- Monster DIct WP increased to 15, 25% Cast: Reflect
- Papyrus Plate WP decreased to 9
- Madlemgen changed to 25% Add: Stop
- All spears except Obelisk and Dragon Whisker gain 1 speed
- H Bag loses Initial: Slow
- Ryozan Silk becomes Initial: Reflect

Armor
- Flash Hat changed: 90 HP, Initial: Innocent
- Reflect Mail becomes Initial: Reflect
- Cachusha changed to HP: 80, MP: 80

Accessories
- Rubber Shoes loses Cancel: Don't Move, gains Cancel: Don't Act
- Feather Boots gains Cancel: Don't Move
- Heretic's Ring remade to Reflect Ring - 1 MA, Initial: Reflect, Cancel: Silence
- Cherche now Always: Protect
- Setiemson now Always: Shell

TODO
- Not sure about Germinas Boots. giving an item 2 Jump is woohoo? to me, it's a waste of an item attribute.
- On the fence about Sprint Shoes. From what I've seen, it's a great item and still used.
- Flash Hat most likely too high in HP.
- Thinking of adding Cancel Reflect to Chaos Blade.
- Ninja Element Skills... maybe.
- Summons/Lore still need to be worked on. I've left these to the end on purpose.

Stuff we discussed on IRC/otherwise that I see missing from this list:

Reflect (spell) gaining Cancel: Performing (and goddamnit give it a new name)

White Staff's proc going down to 50%.
Rainbow Staff becoming 10 WP, Halve/Weak All Elements.
Wizard Staff becoming 8 WP.
Healing Staff becoming 12 WP.
Mace of Zeus becoming 6 WP.

Stuff I feel needs doing:

Persuade gaining 1 Area of Effect.  It's basically Stop-lite, the Area of Effect won't break it, it'll just make it vaguely usable.

Re: Germinas Boots - I'm pretty sure they don't actually serve a purpose without being 1 Move 2 Jump, because Feather Boots give 1 Move, Soft-1 Jump, anti-Earth, and now anti-Don't Move all in one package.  If they don't gain at least 1 Jump, they should probably be remade into something else, because there's no reason to ever use Germinas Boots over Feather Boots outside of obscure niche situations that I can think of.

Re: Flash Hat - It should probably be 80 HP, similar to Green Beret, unless you intend to buff the HP of all the other Hats as well.  (The average of non-Green Beret, non-Black Hood Hat HP is currently 50.)  Honestly, that may not be a bad idea to give the non-Green Beret, non-Black Hood Hats a flat 10 HP buff or so, then add this new Flash Hat in at 80 HP and Initial: Innocent to contrast Green Beret as a higher-HP Hat.

Re: Cancel Reflect on Chaos Blade - Sure.

Re: Lore - Not sure much needs to be changed.  The area-hit skills see use in a good number of strategies.  They're all niche, but it's not a terrible showing.  It's mostly the Bios and Tornado/Quake that need any reworking, and in Bio's case its just losing Dark Element on Bio 1 and Bio 2.

Lore does not need natural selection because everyone uses elemental lore as a means to heal their squad + damage the enemy.  Bio 1/2 don't need to be dark elemental, and tornado and quake need better effects because they're effectively summons that are outclassed by titan and now, silf.

Didn't we decide to replace Float (the ability) with Comet (Fixed 80 damage)?

Flash Hat adding 90 HP?  I'd rather it add 70 HP and 35 MP since it's meant to be the ninjitsu spammer's hat.

The pole nerfs also aren't on here, though it probably would be more interesting if we did
10 WP (Whale Whisker, 2H)
11 WP (Octagon Rod, no 2H)
12 WP (Gokuu Rod, no 2H)
14 WP (Iron Fan, no 2H)

If you insist on nerfing Lancer SPD, can we also add +1 SPD to the obelisk as well?  I'd rather see only +1 PA on that spear, but there's no reason insist on making martial arts lancers slower since they aren't even the best at damage (that's your 2H lancer [which now has 9 SPD]), healing (that's your item bot Javelin lancer [10 SPD]), or range (that's your dragon whisker knight who uses jump), all for the sake of jump (which is mostly redundant for an earth slash lancer).
I personally still see no reason to lower it.  It's just the vagary of someone who wants to use JUMP more, and the way JUMP is currently structured gives no good choice.  I'd rather see lancer have only one move called JUMP at 4-6 Range / 8 Height Tolerance (with the ability to add jump status to self while charging, if we can't code that yet, then it should be instant with HP recoil) on top of a real skillset, like every other class we've fixed.

As for these moves, I suggest:
Lancet (1 Range v1; hack Night Sword so HP restored is only 1/3 of your DMG)
Ice Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 8, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Fire Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 8, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Lightning Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 8, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Holy Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 8, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Jump (6 Range v8, Fixed 6 CTR, standard JUMP damage [formula 64], no evade, +Jump status to self while Jumping)
OR
Jump [v2] (4 Range v8, standard JUMP damage [formula 64], no evade, hack Formula 64 so the Y value is recoil %; Y = 25)

This way, Lancer becomes the counterpart to ninja in terms of elements used (if you make ninja dark/earth/wind on their ninjitsu attacks).

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on November 08, 2011, 11:20:25 amIf you insist on nerfing Lancer SPD, can we also add +1 SPD to the obelisk as well?  I'd rather see only +1 PA on that spear, but there's no reason insist on making martial arts lancers slower since they aren't even the best at damage (that's your 2H lancer [which now has 9 SPD]), healing (that's your item bot Javelin lancer [10 SPD]), or range (that's your dragon whisker knight who uses jump), all for the sake of jump (which is mostly redundant for an earth slash lancer).
I personally still see no reason to lower it.  It's just the vagary of someone who wants to use JUMP more, and the way JUMP is currently structured gives no good choice.  I'd rather see lancer have only one move called JUMP at 4-6 Range / 8 Height Tolerance (with the ability to add jump status to self while charging, if we can't code that yet, then it should be instant with HP recoil) on top of a real skillset, like every other class we've fixed.

As for these moves, I suggest:
Lancet (1 Range v1; hack Night Sword so HP restored is only 1/3 of your DMG)
Ice Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 6, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Fire Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 6, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Lightning Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 6, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Holy Breath (2 Range v4 linear, PA * 6, boosted by MATKUP, blocked by M-EV/Shell/MADEF)
Jump (6 Range v8, Fixed 6 CTR, standard JUMP damage [formula 64], no evade, +Jump status to self while Jumping)
OR
Jump [v2] (4 Range v8, standard JUMP damage [formula 64], no evade, hack Formula 64 so the Y value is recoil %; Y = 25)

This way, Lancer becomes the counterpart to ninja in terms of elements used (if you make ninja dark/earth/wind on their ninjitsu attacks).

Please dear god no.  Why do you hate Jump so goddamn much?  Why aren't you begging for Geomancy to be changed too if you hate linear skillsets so much?  It doesn't need to be "fixed" considering Jump is a counterpart to Geomancy, the base class just wasn't geared for it and it was overpriced to hell.  It's essentially the same in role - except Jump is physical, single target, and more damage compared to Geomancy which is magical, multi-target, and lower damage in roll. 

Jump is actually really strong, which should be obvious when you consider I can get a solid win rate with a bunch of shitty and mediocrely-optimized Jumping Paladins.

/sigh.

Even your suggested set, its the same skill repeated 4 times, weakerish Jump, and random Lancet tossed in.  Not exactly a high-end improvement.

What's the problem... you can run four Jumpers?  You can run four Geomancy units if you want to and spread your Geomancy out properly, it's just not advantageous to do so. 

Except it IS advantageous to have 4 jumpers.

Let's assume you run 4 units with Jump.  If they're all in range, they're all going to be guaranteed to deal jumps as long as you CT synchronized them correctly.  Note that most maps do not incur any problems (since most of them have units within 5-8 Vertical height of each other), and this does not depend on the enemy's setup.

You can't run 4 Geomancers with full skillsets.  If you used 4 ELEMENTAL users with partial skillsets, on half of all maps, half of your squad will be useless because one terrain tile type predominates.

You may argue ninjitsu may do that if you did lightning/fire on two units and water on the other two.  This is certainly possible, but you need a devoted setup just to get this off the ground.
1) Ninjitsu needs MP and PA.  Ninja isn't particularly good at either.  So for the sake of argument, assume you run monk and geomancer.
2) You can't have 4x PA gear.  This means you'd probably run EQ Clothes monks with 20 PA and MATKUP geomancers with heretic's ring.
4) Heretic's ring is a very risky combination if you don't absorb/null all the ninjitsu elements.  That can only be done on geomancer, using white robe AND whatever shield nulls water.
5) Notice that the 2 geomancers still have no good means of restoring MP.  They probably would need MP Restore.
6) As devoted as this setup is, if someone does happen to null water, half your units are still stuck doing nothing.  Similarly, if they have reflect, you're stuck looking stupid.

The only thing that vaguely approaches this level is 4x Draw Out.  One could feasibly split between Koutetsu and Kiku on two units (108 Gems + Overwhelm) and Chiri (MATKUP) on the other two, but that still limits the range on two of the units.  Not to mention, this skillset still needs resurrection abilities.  Given the low base HP on most mages, there's also no way to run this and have above 300 HP without seriously cutting damage.

Thus, buying 4 of JUMP (varying between Level Jump 4/5 or 5/6) is actually (nearly) equivalent of buying 4 FULL geomancy skillsets (which we banned).  This is why I ask to make JUMP one move and not 8 distinct ones.  If this cannot be done, then my suggestion to obelisk would suffice as well.  With it, because of +SPD on every lance except dragon whisker, no one can have more than 2 efficient jumpers.
Speaking of this, we need a rule change that makes innates count towards your overall limits.  Having 4x 2H is probably not fair either.

As for why I proposed an alternate skillset?  Right now, if you don't have the JP and low SPD, JUMP is a wasted skillset and even after spending a good amount of JP on it, it still lacks flexibility.

Changelog

MECHANICS

- Haste becomes 48 CT
- Reflect(status) CT now 0 (lasts until dispelled or death)
- Faith Constant added (all spells that originally used Faith now uses (CasF+35)*(TarF+35)/100000

CLASSES
- Squire loses 1 Move, gains Shields
- Chemist loses 1 MA
- Mediator loses 2 MA, gains Robes
- Geomancer move increased to 4
- Lancer loses 1 speed

ABILITIES
- Any ability with Faith has had their X/Y changed. Too many to list.

Basic Skill
- Accumulate now 0 CT
- Dash becomes Bullrush: Deals PA*12 damage, PA*3 damage recoil, 100% Cancel: Protect
- Throw Stone now PA*3 Damage, 100% Cancel: Performing
- Heal now Cancels: Charm, loses Cancel: Berserk
- Ultima JP reduced to 350, Range increased to 5, CT decreased to 5, MP decreased to 30

Item
- X Potion JP reduced to 150

Chivalry
- All Chivalry abilities MP reduced by 4
- Transfusion JP reduced to 200
- Iron Will JP reduced to 100
- Magicward JP reduced to 100
- Counter JP reduced to 250
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 450
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 300

Snipe
- Greased Bolt now PA*5 Damage, 100% Add: Poison, Oil

Punch Art
- Chakra range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1
- Stigma Magic range reduced to 1, AoE increased to 1, loses Cancel: Berserk

White Magic
- Cure 2/3/4 JP reduced to 100/150/200 respectively
- Raise 1/2 JP reduced to 100/200 respectively
- Reraise JP reduced to 100
- Regen JP reduced to 70
- Protect 2/Shell 2/Wall JP reduced to 200
- Holy JP reduced to 400

Black Magic
- Fire and Bolt 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 50/100/150/200 respectively
- Ice 1/2/3/4 JP reduced to 60/120/180/240 respectively
- Poison JP reduced to 50
- Frog JP reduced to 150
- Death JP reduced to 200
- Teleport JP reduced to 300

Time Magic
- Float remade to Comet: Deals 100 damage, AoE decreased to 0, Vert decreased to 0
- Reflect renamed to Sinkhole
- Short Charge JP reduced to 400
- Float(movement) JP reduced to 200

Summon Magic
- All summons get a flat 10 MP decrease except for Moogle, which gets a 3 MP decrease
- Moogle JP reduced to 50
- Shiva/Ifrit/Ramuh JP reduced to 100
- Titan/Leviathan/Salamaner JP reduced to 150
- Carbunkle remade to heal MA*6 MP, 5 MP cost
- Silf now deals F(MA*8) Wind damage, 20% Add: Don't Move or Don't Act
- Cyclops now Holy element
- MP Restore JP reduced to 450
- Half of MP JP reduced to 200

Steal
- Quickening now 0 CT
- Steal Accessory JP reduced to 150
- Equip Light Blade JP cost decreased to 150

Talk Skill
- Persuade X increased to 35, AoE increased to 1

Geomancy
- Geomancy X increased to 2

Jump
- Jump JP costs redone across the board. Added Level Jump 6.

Draw Out
- Kotetsu loses Add: Darkness

Ninjitsu
- Tsumazuku now Dmg_(Weapon), 100% Cancel: Haste
- Kagesougi now now 100% Add: Blind

Lore
- Bio and Bio 2 no longer Dark Elemental
- Tornado/Quake CT decreased to 2, MP decreased to 25

Sing/Dance
- All Songs/Dances JP increased to 200
- Cheer Song X increased to 33
- Battle Song X increased to 66
- Magic Song X increased to 66
- Polka Polka X decreased to 40
- Disillusion X decreased to 40
- PA/MA Save JP decreased to 400
- Brave/Faith UP JP decreased to 200

ITEMS

Weapons
- Chaos Blade gains 20 W-EV, gains Cancel: Reraise, Reflect
- Battle Axe WP increased to 10
- Giant Axe WP increased to 11
- Slasher WP increased to 13
- Bizen Boat WP decreased to 9
- Murasame WP increased to 11
- Fire/Ice/Thunder Rods proc down to 50%
- Poison Rod WP increased to 10
- White Staff proc chance decreased to 50%
- Rainbow Staff becomes Neutral: All Elements
- Wizard Staff WP increased to 8
- Healing Staff WP increased to 12
- Mace of Zeus WP increased to 6
- Scorpion Tail WP down to 11
- Range of magic guns increased to 6
- Blaze Gun WP up to 17
- Glacier Gun WP up to 15
- Blast Gun WP up to 14
- Battle Dict WP increased to 13
- Monster DIct WP increased to 15, 25% Cast: Sinkhole
- Papyrus Plate WP decreased to 9
- Madlemgen changed to 25% Add: Stop
- All spears except Obelisk and Dragon Whisker gain 1 speed
- H Bag loses Initial: Slow
- Ryozan Silk becomes Initial: Reflect

Armor
- All hats except Black Hood gain 10 HP
- Flash Hat changed: 80 HP, 20 MP, Initial: Innocent
- Reflect Mail becomes Initial: Reflect
- Cachusha changed to HP: 80, MP: 80

Accessories
- Rubber Shoes loses Cancel: Don't Move, gains Cancel: Don't Act
- Feather Boots gains Cancel: Don't Move
- Heretic's Ring remade to Reflect Ring - 1 MA, Initial: Reflect, Cancel: Silence
- Cherche now Always: Protect
- Setiemson now Always: Shell

Brainstorming (loose ends)

Thief
Bad Luck should be (SP + 55)%, P-EV, +Stop

Ninja
-ton should have Y multiplied by *.45 and the formula be (145 - Tar. Faith) * (145 - Cas. Faith)%
Doku no Kyoukai should be Weapon Attack, +100% Silence

Samurai
Kiyomori should be 100% +Poison AND Blind at radius 1
Masamune should be 100% +Haste AND Regen at radius 1

Oracle
Lose Pray/Doubt Faith

Mediator
Gain Pray Faith as no MP spell, formula 2A, (MA * 2 + 45)%, +Faith
Gain Doubt Faith as no MP spell, formula 2A, (MA * 2 + 45)%, +Innocent
Scrap Threaten/Praise/Preach/Solution
Change Solution as formula 2A, (MA * 2 + 45)%, Cancel: All statii that 1.3 Solution did

Germinas Boots
+2 Move (nothing else)

Green Beret
80 HP, 20 MP, +1 Move/Jump (not 90)

You missed Spellbreaker - Gain Cancel: Reflect, Float.

Arena is almost ready to be released. A few more tests and it should be good. I've left Thief skills the same to see how it goes, and left Doku no Kyoukai change out on purpose. Pray Faith/Doubt Faith are impossible right now with the current restrictions, so I've left them on Oracle.

A couple of issues with your latest version

Quote
Talk Skill
- Death Sentence JP reduced to 200

This makes no sense if secret fist (a less accurate, evadable, 1 Range attack) still exists at 300 JP.

Quote
Pray Faith/Doubt Faith are impossible right now with the current restrictions

That's actually not the case.  Simply apply the "no talk skill hard-coding" ASM I made for my EGCC patch and it'll work.  It doesn't use freespace either.