Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: silentkaster on August 08, 2016, 03:57:10 pm

Title: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 08, 2016, 03:57:10 pm
I'm getting a sticky on this post.

If you have ideas and/or see areas where balance could be improved or altered in a positive way, feel free to post here. It would be better if you...

1. Say what the issue is
2. Explain the issue in as much detail as possible without overdoing it
3. Explain why it needs to be changed
4. Give possible solutions or changes that could help.

You don't have to format it, but just answer those four statements. Counterarguments can also be posted here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on August 08, 2016, 06:13:50 pm
Meteor Rod needs a buff
It's too weak.
It's can be weaker than comet and it's a proc.
MA*15-18 but not affected by MA Up like Murasame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 08, 2016, 06:36:19 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on August 08, 2016, 06:13:50 pm
Meteor Rod needs a buff
It's too weak.
It's can be weaker than comet and it's a proc.
MA*15-18 but not affected by MA Up like Murasame.


Simple Fix. Still affected by faith, can't be boosted. Max Damage from Wizard is probably 200 on a useable build. How can this be abused?? (Would like a answer.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 08, 2016, 08:28:23 pm
I would rather up the proc rate than change the skill itself. It wasn't OP in 1.39c when it was still bahamut (exact same power and boostability) and the proc chance was secretly 50% in the patcher, so I don't understand why we changed that in the first place.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 08, 2016, 08:48:37 pm
My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 08, 2016, 08:53:20 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 08, 2016, 08:48:37 pm
My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).


I'd be fine with that at a 20% proc
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 09, 2016, 04:25:28 am
Hooray.  My favourite thread is back.  Time to pollute the thread with another brain dump.

I had the opportunity to read through every change introduced in patch 1.40 while updating the team design tool.  Here I would like to comment on the changes I have questions about.  Bear in mind that I have not attended any Discord discussions, so the only information available to me is what is on this message board.

First, the needless and benign.

Renaming
  • Maintenance -> Stability
    of one's stance. It is difficult to steal the equipment of a wary traveler.

  • Oil -> Imperil
    after Final Fantasy XIII.

  • Crude Bow -> Dirty Bow
    If Oil gets renamed as above, then the reference to crude oil will be lost.

  • Bowgun -> Shield Crossbow
    Dark Souls II style.

  • Provoke Bow -> Bacchus Bow
    Personal preference. Rolls off the tongue.

  • Poison Bow -> Sapper Bow
    The name of Poison Bow belies its effect of adding MP Poison, which is turning out to be renamed Sap.

  • Stone Gun -> Fomalhaut
    Because petrify this gun does no more.

  • Bizen Boat -> Osafune
    This one always irked me.  Bizen Boat is a blind idiot translation of bizen osafune, the name of a town that fluorished as a major producer of katana in feudal Japan. Translating bizen osafune as Bizen Boat is akin to translating Los Alamos as Los Cottonwoods. Modern translations of Final Fantasy games, most notably Alexander O. Smith's translation of FFXII, scrapped Bizen Boat in favour of Osafune. I propose we do the same.

  • Ramia Harp -> Lamia Harp
    Because the transrator of vanirra FFT apparently did not know about Greek mythorogy.

  • Hyper Wrist -> Hyper Shoes
    This accessory resembles Sprint Shoes moreso than Power Wrist in function.



Next, a few eyebrows that were raised about equipment balancing.

Equipment
  • Dewdrop and Wyvern Shields
    Why do these two shields have 5% less total EV than their sister shields? Are we trying to penalise water and wind absorption teams?

  • Crystal Shield
    Drop the M-EV from 10% to 0%, and boost the P-EV from 15% to 20~25% to compensate.  This thing provides Reflect.  Spells that punch through Reflect ought to punish it, and units that use Crystal Shield to cover for high Faith ought to feel the burn following their first death.

  • Diamond and Platina Shield
    Swap their Dark/Holy absorption properties to make Demi absorption teams more viable.  (More on this under the Skills heading.)

  • N-Kai Armlet
    This accessory is still bad. Like Magic Ring, it provides two status immunities and absorption of one element, but unlike Magic Ring, it does not provide +1 MA.  Is it possible to give N-Kai armlet +20 HP or so?  This would also make Demi absorption teams more viable.  (Again, more on this under the Skills heading)

  • Chakra Band
    Does anyone use this thing anymore? The -1 SP seems like a complete buzzkill. I would prefer no SP penalty at the cost of even lower HP (if needs be).

  • Weapons that cast spells at low rates
    These include
    • Silver Bow (20% Cast: Holy)

    • Muramasa (20% Cast: Decapitate)

    • Meteor Rod (25% Cast: Meteor)

    • White Staff (20% Cast: Bizen Boat , ahem, Osafune)

    • Black Staff (20% Cast: Bio 3)

    • Windslash Bow (20% Cast: Hurricane)

    • Heavy Spear (20% Cast: Shellbust Stab)

    Each of these spells is powerful on its own; paired with the weapon damage, it might as well be 20~25% Add: Death. And just like the Death spell, its success rate is so unreliable that one eschews it in favour of more consistent damage.  To make these weapons more attractive, I recommend we increase the proc rates to around 33% and slash 1~3 points off the WP (or alternatively use a weaker form of the spell -- I am looking at you, Black Staff) to compensate.  This way, the damage will become more reliable, but will fall short of 1HKO territory.

  • Coral Sword
    Better than its 1.39 version, but still in want of more utility.  Make it a Zeus's Staff by also adding Strengthen: Water, and drop its WP by a point or so to keep its damage balanced.  This way, the blade can also be used to buff Suiton, Water Ball, and Quicksand.

  • Battle Rod
    This thing is better as a Staff.  Rods are available to only Squires, Wizards, Summoners, and Scholars. Of these classes, all but Wizards can also equip Staves. Meanwhile, at 4 Move, Priests have become the designated melee mage, but they cannot equip rods.  Altogether, by making this melee weapon a rod, we are catering to Wizards, a frail caster class that runs out of breath after merely three tiles of movement, in lieu of Priests, a (still pretty frail) caster class with legs that compare to the likes of Usain Bolt.

  • Equipment that adds MP Poison immunity
    or the lack thereof.  Only three items provide MP Poison immunity, and two of them (Rune Blade and Cross Helm) are not accessible to conventional casters. It would be nice for casters to have more options to protect themselves from the status effect that is designed to cripple them.  My suggestion is converting Rune Blade into a new, fourth bag:

    M Bag: 5 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: MP Regen, Immune: MP Poison

    As a bag, this new option is available to all walks of life. Meanwhile, Rune Blade can either bite the dust or be redesigned into something new (and preferably fresh, like Subway).

  • Masamune
    I want to give this thing +1 Range so I can feel like Sephiroth.




And now for some skills.

Skills
  • Demi 2
    1.40 stripped Demi 2 of its Dark property.  This is a nerf to an already mediocre skill. With its damage fixed to 50% of the target's max HP, Demi 2 is an expensive, slow, and inaccurate tier 1 Black Magic spell. Its unique, solitary strength is its ability to be used as a healing spell on teams with low MA, low M-EV, high HP, and Dark absorption (e.g. a team of Time Magic Paladins).  (Incidentally, this is also why I wish to have the Dark absorption swapped from Diamond Shield, which has high M-EV, to Platina Shield, which has low M-EV, and also give the Dark absorbing N-Kai Armlet an HP buff). However, by removing its Dark property, Demi 2 can no longer be self-absorbed, and consequently loses its utility.

  • Lay on Hands
    I am not sure why this skill follows an Unbrave formula, yet is on a melee class suited for high brave.

  • Heretic
    Move this to Ninjutsu.  Thieves cannot exploit the Innocent status effect like Ninja can.  Furthermore, they cannot use Heretic well, either.  The AI uses Heretic to mitigate damage while being targeted by spells. (A tried and true strategy for using Heretic is opening the battle with a map-wide Lore spell, then using Heretic afterward on the same turn).  Since Thieves have the highest base SP in the game, they typically move first, and so do not have the opportunity to react to such spells.

  • Death
    This spell does not suit wizards.  A wizard leverages its high base MA by dishing out hard-hitting AoE spells, not by making a Hail Mary with this wildly inaccurate spell.  Move Death to a class with lower base MA and fewer attack options, such as Oracle or Scholar.

  • Caution
    Move this reaction ability to a caster class than can equip shields, namely Time Mages (or Scholars if Scholars get access to Shields).  Summoners do not have the EV to take advantage of this ability. And while we're at it...

  • 1/3 of MP
    Move this support ability to Time Mages, too.  Summoners are MP fountains that cast Carbuncle whenever their MP runs dry.  Time Mages are no such fountains, and more importantly, their skill set is effective in the hands of low-MA, low-MP classes, unlike Summon Magic.  These low-MP classes can utilize Time Magic with 1/3 of MP like gangbusters.

  • Regenerator
    Move this from Time Mage to a class with a high HP pool.  Regenerator triggers on damage, and a Time Mage that takes damage is a dead Time Mage.  Paladin or Scholar would be a nice choice.

  • Balance
    As above. Time Mages do not have the HP pool to leverage Balance.  Scholar is the best choice here.




And finally, for those who have not yet fallen asleep, some musings on jobs.

Jobs
  • Priests, the "4 Move Mage"
    I am not yet convinced that priests are the appropriate choice for 4 Move. The priest is the pillar of the team.  You want to keep them at the back of the fight to heal and resurrect other units. However, with 4 Move the priest runs ahead at the start of the fight and sticks out its neck where no neck of a support class ought to be stuck. If the priest dies, then everyone dies. There is nothing wrong with a healing class that weathers the thick of battle (as Paladins and Crusaders of traditional RPGs do), but the priest of FFTA weathers a battle like my stomach weathers a Chipotle burrito.  Accordingly, I believe that 4 Move is better suited on a mage that has access to armor (i.e., Scholars), shields (i.e., Time Mages), or both (i.e., a redesigned Scholar).

  • Flail mages
    Following point #1, this underused class of weapons is better suited on a 4 Move, shield-toting, armor-clad scholar than a 4 Move priest, not only as a melee weapon, but also as a means of buffing Maelstrom, Shadow Shade, and Tornado.

  • Beefcake Monks
    Monks and their monstrous base 13 PA kill the balancing of PA-based skills.  Monks are taking other people's jobs like China.  If any other job has a PA-based skill, then Monks can use it best.   Several patches ago, this was obvious with Ninjutsu tons, and in 1.40, this is obvious with Jump.  It's time we drop Monks PA to around 11, put jobs back into the hands of their rightful owners, and make America great again.  To compensate, we can buff Punch Art (preferably by making their formula linear, like a subway).




Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 08, 2016, 08:48:37 pm
My idea was (and still is) to make Meteor deal a flat 200 damage (in anticipation of an eventual actual Meteor ability).


I like this.  It is thematically consistent with Comet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 10:49:42 am
Responses:

Lay on Hands:
I found it difficult to make an unfaith raise because I would have to copy the faith/innocent routines, which yake up a lot of space. Furthermore, I feel like that balances it because you either have a paladin focusing on offense, or one focusing on support.

Regenerator:
This reaction triggers on countergrasp, not damage. Steals and such will trigger it. But I think it could be moved to another class if time mage gets more stuff, because time mage is already seeming to be very good.

Proc Rates:
I agree here. These procs are too many, and don't make their respective weapons unique at all. Just another low proc rate weapon that has a chance to one shot. I mentioned what I thought about meteor rod already, and I kinda feel the same way about the others.

Also remember that we sometimes move things to other classes because they would be too good on that one class, aka to make them less easily accessible to a certain class. This is why we moved overwhelm to bard/dancer, because it was a bit too good as a grab and go for lancers. If we move something like 1/3 of mp to time mages, it might be a bit too much since they are already fast (11-12 SP without trying) and can cast haste/slow 2 at 1/3 the MP Cost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 09, 2016, 11:12:59 am
What if we give time mage short charge and summoners keep 1/3 of MP?

My reasoning is that firstly, it gives the TMs and summoners their respective support abilities and would even out the JP cost. Secondly these changes should extenuate their strengths as a class. Time Mages are fast and with the proper setup with short charge they become efficient disrupt/support units. Summoners have a high MP pool and with 1/3 of MP you can add on some high HP equips to make up for their low HP. And with move-mp up and/or MP Switch summoners are more viable as casters.

That's just me. Feel free to disagree if you want, it's only a thought I had since I read Gaignun's post
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
Responses to Gaignun:

Renaming section- I'm fine with 3-10. Only reason I wouldn't want to change 1-2 is because they do mainly what they did in Vanilla (Oil makes you weak to all elements instead of just fire, but the transition and the name makes it pretty easy to bridge the gap) and I think changing them might confuse newer players who have played through Vanilla. I'm more for not changing things where they don't need to be changed. While Bizen Boat and Ramia Harp are also from Vanilla, their purposes have changed so I'm okay with changing them since they do something much different than they did previously.

Equipment-
5. Chakra Band- Yes, it is still used actually. Eight speed monks are still viable and the only ones able to equip them are Monks and Mimes. I see this going on a more defensive Monk, like a dancer, or a more offensive Monk like a Grand Crosser with Equip X. Since Mimes can equip shields, it can also go on a Mime without too much penalty and it still provides plenty of Status Protection. It's still a good choice, but not the obvious choice like it was in 1.39.

6. Only thing that I can agree with you on is Muramasa being a one hit "death" and it's only equippable by a class that has 3 move and not much ability to improve upon said move. Black Staff's Bio 3 I've always thought was meh, but it can be attractive I guess, especially if it procs Undead. But other than that, these weapons serve purposes. For example, Silver Bow is probably one of the bows that a Samurai could arguably be better with than the Archer and requires 70/70 to be used potentially well. Meteor Rod encourages 2S mages which also might need to be 70/70 and having just one is not a 1HKO.

So...IDK. Increasing proc chances could be alright, but I'd like to see them in action a bit more as they are and see if people avoid or want to select them.

Skills-
4. Death- Would probably be okay with it being on Scholar, but not Oracle. I could see the new White Magic, Short Charge, Death Oracles running around and it makes me cringe.

8. Balance- Not a fan of it going to Scholar, and I don't mind it remaining where it is as Time Magic is a good place for it, especially with Crit Quick remaining as a reaction in Time Magic. However, would be okay with it going to Oracle or (dare I say it?) Lancer as an ability besides Jump. (I expect nobody agrees with me here, but let's face it, you can't argue that the "Jump" skillset is the least diversified of every skill set.)

Jobs-
1/2. What makes a Priest so attractive is the skillset, not the job itself. So if using a priest, I think that most people would be using it because they can get White Magic and decent MA. I don't mind them being four move, though I don't mind them being three move, either. However, I totally disagree on the Flails being transferred to Scholar (and while you didn't say that outright, you suggested it by using moves from their skillset). They can equip the Prismatic Rod and Poison Rod, both of which well outshine their respective flails and cover more ground. It's true that Priests don't get a lot of use out of them, but I guess it is there so that you can have a melee priest without having to buff PA too much. The four move at the moment complements this and I'm sure we'll see at least a couple people make priests like this.

3. Cannot agree here, either. Monks are great PA attackers but their equipment is limited. They can't equip a real weapon (bags which means if the AI derps and goes for a bag whack, and we've all seen it happen more than once, you might be losing a turn), they can't equip anything but bands and clothes (where real choices have to be made now) and because of these, it's a fine balance now making a monk. I would be more for lowering their base HP before touching their PA because while they are a good choice, and arguably the best choice, for many PA builds, they're simply not versatile enough to lower their PA in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 09, 2016, 12:48:35 pm
I'm fine with Meteor dealing 200 flat damage.  It's certainly much more interesting than simply being a Bahamut clone.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 09, 2016, 04:25:28 am
All the things


Heya, Gaignun, nice to see you posting again.  Here's my responses to what you brought-up:

- I like Maintenance becoming Stability.  Solid reasoning, and much more in-line with it now being a Movement skill.

- Not really feeling the Oil name change; but, then again, I haven't played FF13.  Oil is simple, easy to remember, and comes straight out of vanilla FFT.

- Shield Bow is fine to me.

- Sap Bow / Sapper Bow is fine to me.

- Fomalhaut is too fancy of a name for my tastes / in comparison to the rest of the FFT names.  If anything, I would be fine with "Handcannon".

- Osafune is a sexy name, and I like the reasoning you provided for the change.

- Lamia Harp certainly makes more sense, lol, and so does Hyper Shoes.  TBH, I chose Hyper Wrist because it's an existing FF accessory name, but you're right about Hyper Shoes making more sense.


- If anything, the Dewdrop Shield and Wyvern Shield having lower evades mean more synergy with their respective absorbs, but I would be fine if they gave the same amount of evades as the other absorb shields.

- I'm fine with the Crystal Shield change.

- I'm fine with swapping Diamond Shield's and Platina Shield's absorb types with one another.

- I feel that the N-Kai Armlet is fine because while it doesn't grant +1 MA, it grants Undead immunity, which is arguably more important to protect against than HP Poison.

- The Chakra Band is still used, yes, and 8 Speed isn't necessary a hinderance.  The -1 Speed is a more fair compromise than simply lowering its HP even further, something we went over while we were balancing the item.  Though, I would be fine with it only protecting against 4-5 statuses, and removing the -1 Speed penalty + receiving an HP upgrade.  Was never fond of it protecting against "all of the things".

- The AI does not recognize weapon procs, so if a weapon's WP is too low, the AI may not attack with it as often as you'd want them to.  Though, I do understand your reasoning.  I'm on the fence about this one.  Maybe the ones that have decent WP (Silver Bow, Windslash Bow, Heavy Spear, and White Staff) could go up to 25-33% and suffer -1 or -2 WP?

- I feel that the Muramasa is fine, since it can't benefit from Two Hands or shields, has 10 WP, and its proc chance is only 20%.  It's also exclusively used by a low-Move job, like silentkaster said.  It's simply a more balanced Battle Axe.

- I'm fine with your Coral Sword suggestion.

- I'm still fine with the Battle Rod.  Staff users have the Rainbow Staff.

- I like your M Bag suggestion.  As for Rune Blade, I wouldn't mind seeing it become a near-identical clone of the Platinum Sword, except granting MP Poison immunity and 15-20 W-Ev.

- Haha @ your Masamune suggestion.  While +1 range is interesting, I want for there to be a reason for samurai to still use Equip Polearm.


- Demi 2 is 1 AoE, and twice as expensive to cast + costs 100 more JP than Demi 1, all for the ability to deal 17% more HP damage.  Meh.  However, I see its non-elemental attribute as a buff rather than a nerf, since it means that there will be situations that people would actually use it over Demi 1 (such as against Dark absorb teams).  I'd be fine with having either its CT lowered to 2, or CT lowered to 3 and JP cost lowered to 200.

- If Lay on Hands didn't use UnBrave or simply used PA+X for its accuracy, it would definitely outshine Revive and Wish.  I feel that the skill is fine as it is, as it appeals to a larger pool of jobs.

- While I still feel that moving Heretic to Ninjutsu provides -ton users with too good of a synergy, I'm willing to try it out, provided that Heretic is nerfed in some way (increased CT/MP cost, etc).

- There's nowhere else to put Death: Yin Yang Magic received Douse, and improved versions of Life Drain, Spell Absorb, Blind Rage and Petrify; Lore already has a lot going for it, and doesn't need an instant-Dead spell to be added to its arsenal.  I'm fine with Black Magic having a few status effect skills because those and the nether magic gives some much-needed versatility to a very singular skillset.

- I'm okay with Balance being moved to another skillset, but I'm not so sure which.  I'm also okay with it staying where it is.

- As for the RSM swapping around: Read what DW said, if you haven't.


- WKW said earlier in Discord that we could simply transfer Move -1 to White Magic, since it doesn't see much use on Talk Skill.  I'm all for this.

- I was once fine with the idea of Monks dropping down to 12 PA, due to your previous post about them, but for reasons already mentioned by silentkaster, I'm fine with them remaining at 13 PA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 09, 2016, 02:10:21 pm
I want to point out that we only have 3 spots left for new weapons. So if we are adding M Bag, instead of adding M Bag and then giving Rune Blade another purpose, it is probably preferable to simply replace Rune Blade. That being said, I will respond to a few things

I will back up what Andrew said about the Fomalhaut. It's preferable to keep names simple for the Memory Card Generator and players alike.



Diamond/Platina Shield
By swapping "properties", are you referring to their evasion? It's probably slightly easier to adjust that than the absorb properties, as it doesn't involve taking away the shiny new palette that Platina Shield has.

N-Kai Armlet
+ HP is possible on an accessory, but not without using up unused body/head slots (which we have only 5 of left), or entering ALMA territory which is something we really want to avoid.

Chakra Band
This went back and forth when we discussed about it. This is the compromise we ended up with. I don't think lowering the HP even more is the way to go with this but if you can think of something else, feel free to share.


Demi 2
Demi 2 was 6 CT in 139c, yet the Master Guide claimed 4. That is actually why it was so bad, and we have fixed that now. I'd suggest to give it another try.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 10, 2016, 02:12:47 am
From now on I will attempt to do briefings of suggestions that happen within the FFT Arena Discord channel (https://discord.gg/0yVBfKgVSrUfnnYc), whether they are about an existing or new feature.

Here are today's notable suggestions:

- Crits or knockback removal
Knockbacks caused by crits are generally not desired, especially with 2 swords. The crits themselves may not be desired either, as they prevent spell procs (not status procs) from happening (but don't quote me on that; I've just never seen it happen).

- Combining Power and Mind Ruin into one Ruin that deplete both PA and MA by 1 point, and possibly moving the Ruin abilities to another skillset
It's difficult to make the Power/Mind Ruin work without heavy dedication (they suffer from the same problem as the old stat break dances did). Thieves have better ability options to choose from. It has been suggested to move the Ruins to the Squire or Ninja.

- Instead of replacing Rune Blade with "M Bag", P Bag would take Rune Blade's properties instead of its current Always: Regen and Immune: Poison. There has been no discussion about what will become of the Rune Blade after this.
No need for two Auto-Regen items, the Light Robe is enough. In addition, we have added 4 new items to protect against Poison in 140 (P Bag, Light Robe, 108 Gems, Vanish Mantle), plus one new ability to dispel it (Misogi). Not to mention Poison Bow and Bio being repurposed to inflict "MP Poison" instead.

- Monster idea: Red Chocobo to be the "Phoenix" of Arena, with Initial Reraise and a 2 AoE Revive ability (which would be auto target)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 10, 2016, 02:58:07 am
Hey Gaignun, hate to trouble you, but I believe a while back you posted a potential rework of Punch Art such that its damage wouldn't be quadratic -> Punch Art becomes more accessible to non-Monks. Do you happen to remember your proposal? Obviously, without Punch Art receiving some sort of buff, Monks won't be too happy about going below 12 base PA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on August 10, 2016, 12:06:54 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 10, 2016, 02:12:47 am
- Combining Power and Mind Ruin into one Ruin that deplete both PA and MA by 1 point, and possibly moving the Ruin abilities to another skillset
It's difficult to make the Power/Mind Ruin work without heavy dedication (they suffer from the same problem as the old stat break dances did). Thieves have better ability options to choose from. It has been suggested to move the Ruins to the Squire or Ninja.


This I could get behind. Moving it to squire would probably be better since ninja skillset should be all about dealing damage instead of breaking stats and I don't think it would fit there well. Speaking of dance, has anyone had any success with or even used Break Dance yet? On paper, it seems to be worse than Polka Polka/Disillusion.

Quote- Instead of replacing Rune Blade with "M Bag", P Bag would take Rune Blade's properties instead of its current Always: Regen and Immune: Poison. There has been no discussion about what will become of the Rune Blade after this.
No need for two Auto-Regen items, the Light Robe is enough. In addition, we have added 4 new items to protect against Poison in 140 (P Bag, Light Robe, 108 Gems, Vanish Mantle), plus one new ability to dispel it (Misogi). Not to mention Poison Bow and Bio being repurposed to inflict "MP Poison" instead.


Please. This needs to happen. I would love to see P Bag with Rune Blade's properties. Question though, so if Rune Blade is getting changed/shafted, what does Geomancer use now for elemental damage? C Bag/FS Bag?

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 10, 2016, 12:49:47 pm
To clear up confusion, I have just posted  the 140 changelog in the 1.4 thread since it was apparently nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 10, 2016, 01:11:12 pm
Quote from: Otabo on August 10, 2016, 12:06:54 pm
This I could get behind. Moving it to squire would probably be better since ninja skillset should be all about dealing damage instead of breaking stats and I don't think it would fit there well. Speaking of dance, has anyone had any success with or even used Break Dance yet? On paper, it seems to be worse than Polka Polka/Disillusion.

Please. This needs to happen. I would love to see P Bag with Rune Blade's properties. Question though, so if Rune Blade is getting changed/shafted, what does Geomancer use now for elemental damage? C Bag/FS Bag?


I'd rather see Rune Blade just return to how it was, if it can't be decided on what to do with it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on August 10, 2016, 01:27:31 pm
Quote from: Reks on August 10, 2016, 01:11:12 pm
I'd rather see Rune Blade just return to how it was, if it can't be decided on what to do with it.


I am kinda courious how Rune blade was before. I came here in 1.39 and so i personally feel i don't have much say in this thread
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on August 10, 2016, 01:37:28 pm
Rune Blade before was 10WP, 10% W-EV and +2 MA before I believe. Or something along those lines. I dunno why it was changed in the first place, but meh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on August 10, 2016, 01:38:30 pm
I could see it being built but it be very specialized.. i would not mind seeing runeblade back like that could be intereting to make a spellsword.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 02:30:09 pm
Thank you for the feedback, everybody.  I will try to provide a few responses.


Quote from: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 10:49:42 am
Lay on Hands:
I found it difficult to make an unfaith raise because I would have to copy the faith/innocent routines, which yake up a lot of space.


Is it possible to give Lay on Hands a Brave formula, like Punch Art?

Quote from: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 10:49:42 am
Regenerator:
This reaction triggers on countergrasp, not damage. Steals and such will trigger it. But I think it could be moved to another class if time mage gets more stuff, because time mage is already seeming to be very good.


Ah, so it triggers off of physical skills like Dragon Spirit.  Was this changed in 1.40?

In that case, Regenerator is best on a job with high HP and MP pools and access to shields.  Scholars have the HP and MP, but Time Mages have the shields.  If we ever make a tank mage that has all three, Regenerator would be a perfect reaction ability for it.

Quote from: dw6561 on August 09, 2016, 10:49:42 am
Also remember that we sometimes move things to other classes because they would be too good on that one class, aka to make them less easily accessible to a certain class. This is why we moved overwhelm to bard/dancer, because it was a bit too good as a grab and go for lancers. If we move something like 1/3 of mp to time mages, it might be a bit too much since they are already fast (11-12 SP without trying) and can cast haste/slow 2 at 1/3 the MP Cost.


That is fine by me.  With 1/3 of MP comes the huge opportunity cost of passing up on Short Charge and (Magic) Defense UP.  Accordingly, 1/3 of MP on Time Mages wouldn't be for Time Mages themselves.  It would be for supports who use Time Magic as a secondary, but don't have the MP to cast its skills consistently, like Thieves, Lancers, and Paladins.  Currently, these classes need to invest 250 JP to unlock Time Magic and an additional 250 JP to unlock 1/3 of MP on Summon Magic. That is very expensive for them.

The line of reasoning for separating a skill from its intended job on grounds of that skill being too good seems a little inharmonious to me.  If that is what we are after, then what is stopping us from giving Black Magic skills and/or Magic Attack UP to Thieves on the grounds that Wizards use those skills too well?


Quote from: Barren on August 09, 2016, 11:12:59 am
What if we give time mage short charge and summoners keep 1/3 of MP?

My reasoning is that firstly, it gives the TMs and summoners their respective support abilities and would even out the JP cost. Secondly these changes should extenuate their strengths as a class. Time Mages are fast and with the proper setup with short charge they become efficient disrupt/support units. Summoners have a high MP pool and with 1/3 of MP you can add on some high HP equips to make up for their low HP. And with move-mp up and/or MP Switch summoners are more viable as casters.

That's just me. Feel free to disagree if you want, it's only a thought I had since I read Gaignun's post


That is also an option.  Then, the question becomes whether we want Time Magic users or spellcasting MP Switch users to save 250 JP when equipping 1/3 of MP.


Quote from: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
6. Only thing that I can agree with you on is Muramasa being a one hit "death" and it's only equippable by a class that has 3 move and not much ability to improve upon said move. Black Staff's Bio 3 I've always thought was meh, but it can be attractive I guess, especially if it procs Undead. But other than that, these weapons serve purposes. For example, Silver Bow is probably one of the bows that a Samurai could arguably be better with than the Archer and requires 70/70 to be used potentially well. Meteor Rod encourages 2S mages which also might need to be 70/70 and having just one is not a 1HKO.

So...IDK. Increasing proc chances could be alright, but I'd like to see them in action a bit more as they are and see if people avoid or want to select them.


I admit I am a little hasty in saying that the listed weapons are 1HKO weapons.  However, my point was and still is that the weapons are bad on mathematical grounds.  Here are a few simple calculations to support my claim. The plain numbers are maximum damage values; the bold numbers are expectation values.

Black Staff: Br(8*MA) + Fa(11*MA) (20% Cast: Bio 3)
[Br(8)+Fa(11)]*MA (20% Add: Zombie)
[Br(8)+Fa(2.2)]*MA (4% Add: Zombie)

White Staff: Br(10*MA) + 7*MA (20% Cast: Bizen Boat)
[Br(10)+7]*MA
[Br(10)+1.4]*MA

Meteor Rod: Br(8*MA) + Fa(12*MA) (20% Cast: Meteor)
[Br(8)+Fa(12)]*MA
[Br(8)+Fa(2.4)]*MA

Read the numbers like this: The average WP for Black Staff is 10.2, and you need to invest in Brave to get 8 of that and Faith to get the other 2.2.

At 20% chance, the three weapons go super-Holy (i.e., >16*MA), but on average they are all weaker than Rainbow Staff (Br(12)*MA), and that's assuming the staff user has matching Brave and Fury. (e.g., a Rainbow Staff at 70 Brave must be compared to a White Staff at 70 Brave and 70 Faith.)

Now you'd be fair to ask how the above weapons compare at 40 Brave and 70 Faith.  This is the most disadvantageous comparison for Rainbow Staff. Let's plug the numbers right in. If we substitute 0.75 for Br and 1.05 for Fa, we get

Black Staff:
17.6*MA
8.3*MA

White Staff:
14.5*MA
8.9*MA

Meteor Rod:
18.6*MA
8.5*MA

Meanwhile, Rainbow staff is 9*MA.  Rainbow Staff still wins.  Of course, all values are equally bad.  At 9*MA, you might as well use a Paladin with a 17 WP Chaos Blade. That beast has 17.9*PA at 70 Brave, and a killer proc that works 100% of the time.

Thus, I conclude that the above weapons are weak on average, and only have the power to put the enemy under pressure when their spells are auto-cast.  They are Hail Mary weapons that let you down 80% of the time, like the Death spell.

Now let's look at the elemental rods. Those are good weapon if I do say so myself.

Fire Rod = Br(10*MA) + UnBr(7*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Fire)
[13.7 + Br(3)]*MA
[8.6 + Br(3)]*MA
Ice Rod = Br(9*MA) + UnBr(8*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Ice)
[14.8 + Br(1)]*MA
[9.0 + Br(1)]*MA
Thunder Rod = Br(8*MA) + UnBr(9*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Bolt)
[15.9 - Br(1)]*MA
[9.3 - Br(1)]*MA

The expectation values of the elemental rods are similar to the first three; neither comes close to rivaling Rainbow Staff; in that respect the elemental rods are equally lousy.  But, each of these rods hits nearly as hard as Holy when their spells auto-cast. In other words, these weapons let you down only 50% of the time.

(Incidentally, we have just proved here that, of the elemental rods, Fire Rod is the strongest and Thunder Rod is the weakest when both their spells autocast and on average, at any Brave.)

Quote from: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
4. Death- Would probably be okay with it being on Scholar, but not Oracle. I could see the new White Magic, Short Charge, Death Oracles running around and it makes me cringe.


I think that Death is too inaccurate to cringe over, but your point is fair.  Yin Yang Magic is already all over the meta, and if this change would make that worse, then let's give Death to a less popular job (that has reason to use it).

Quote from: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
8. Balance- Not a fan of it going to Scholar, and I don't mind it remaining where it is as Time Magic is a good place for it, especially with Crit Quick remaining as a reaction in Time Magic. However, would be okay with it going to Oracle or (dare I say it?) Lancer as an ability besides Jump. (I expect nobody agrees with me here, but let's face it, you can't argue that the "Jump" skillset is the least diversified of every skill set.)


Then we could swap Critical Quick with Distribute at the same time. Balance would also works on Lancer provided we overhaul its skill set.  The important thing is that Balance needs to be on a job with a high HP pool.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
Jobs-
1/2. What makes a Priest so attractive is the skillset, not the job itself. So if using a priest, I think that most people would be using it because they can get White Magic and decent MA. I don't mind them being four move, though I don't mind them being three move, either. However, I totally disagree on the Flails being transferred to Scholar (and while you didn't say that outright, you suggested it by using moves from their skillset). They can equip the Prismatic Rod and Poison Rod, both of which well outshine their respective flails and cover more ground. It's true that Priests don't get a lot of use out of them, but I guess it is there so that you can have a melee priest without having to buff PA too much. The four move at the moment complements this and I'm sure we'll see at least a couple people make priests like this.


Transferring Flails to Scholars on grounds that Scholars can use them better than Priests is precisely my point.  It is true that Prismatic Rod is better than the Flails, as well.  I'm just trying to find a good home for Flails.

As for Priests having 4 Move to use flails better, my argument that Priests shouldn't put themselves into the thick of battle (to use flails or otherwise) still stands.  Giving Priests +1 Move to use flails better is like giving Wizards +1 Move to use daggers better.  If somebody is intent on using flails for offense, they'll make a Ninja.  Ninja also have 4 Move and are equally squishy, but can equip twice as many flails at a time.  If we want single-handed flails to compete with Ninja, then I think we should provide a better incentive than giving the job extra MP to juggle physical offense with White Magic support.  I am not saying brandishing a flail while supporting with White Magic isn't impossible; rather, there must be a better way to go about this without jeapordising Priests' primary role.  Giving Priests Move -1 as suggested elsewhere is OK, even though it would kill the Movement slot options of support Priests.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 09, 2016, 11:32:15 am
3. Cannot agree here, either. Monks are great PA attackers but their equipment is limited. They can't equip a real weapon (bags which means if the AI derps and goes for a bag whack, and we've all seen it happen more than once, you might be losing a turn), they can't equip anything but bands and clothes (where real choices have to be made now) and because of these, it's a fine balance now making a monk. I would be more for lowering their base HP before touching their PA because while they are a good choice, and arguably the best choice, for many PA builds, they're simply not versatile enough to lower their PA in my opinion.


Honest, innocent question: What are 13 PA Monks without access to anything but Bags good for in the metagame?


Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 09, 2016, 02:10:21 pm
Diamond/Platina Shield
By swapping "properties", are you referring to their evasion? It's probably slightly easier to adjust that than the absorb properties, as it doesn't involve taking away the shiny new palette that Platina Shield has.


Yeah, swapping evasion would achieve the same thing.  I didn't realize Platina Shield has a new palette!

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 09, 2016, 02:10:21 pm
N-Kai Armlet
+ HP is possible on an accessory, but not without using up unused body/head slots (which we have only 5 of left), or entering ALMA territory which is something we really want to avoid.


Is it possible to recycle head slots, such as giving N-Kai Armlet Chakra Band's +35 HP?  Or would all of Chakra Band's status immunities come with it? I suppose this depends on what N-Kai Armlet points to in memory.


Quote from: CT5Holy on August 10, 2016, 02:58:07 am
Hey Gaignun, hate to trouble you, but I believe a while back you posted a potential rework of Punch Art such that its damage wouldn't be quadratic -> Punch Art becomes more accessible to non-Monks. Do you happen to remember your proposal? Obviously, without Punch Art receiving some sort of buff, Monks won't be too happy about going below 12 base PA.


Sure.  I still have the graphic on my computer. I will attach it to this post. Back when I first posted this graphic, I proposed to drop Monks' PA to 12.  This formula change keeps Punch Art damage consistent following this drop.


Finally, as for the most recent discord discussion,

Removing crits/knockback: Knockback is stupid fun, but I won't mind if it disappears.
Moving Ruin skills elsewhere: They certainly don't find much love on Thieves, but I think they are equally unattractive anywhere else.  We'll need to think carefully about this.
P Bag inheriting Rune Blade's properties: If we are reluctant to use further weapon slots, then sure.


Punch Art, Spin Fist
Current: (PA/2)*PA
Nonlinear: [(PA+2)/2]*PA
Linear: PA*10
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 10, 2016, 03:34:09 pm
My bad, regenerator really does trigger on HP Damage according to the wiki. I don't think anything was changed, so I was mistaken. Was probably thinking about Piety when Emmy pointed out to me I was wrong in my ASM thread. Sorry for the confusion lol.

Also, yeah we wouldn't go that far with the RSM relocation. It also has to be useful for the class we put it on as well as classes that will use the secondary. Maybe putting 1/3 of MP on time mage wouldn't be as bad as I thought, and I'm just overthinking things. But yeah, they are already a very solid class as is, and I would stray away from giving them too much stuff that would be useful for them. Shields + 9 SP are already a huge boon, and I can see the other caster classes being neglected (especially scholar, which we nerfed to the ground) due to this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 03:44:50 pm
Ah, gotcha.  So Piety has countergrasp, then?

By the way, there's a wiki?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 02:30:09 pm

I admit I am a little hasty in saying that the listed weapons are 1HKO weapons.  However, my point was and still is that the weapons are bad on mathematical grounds.  Here are a few simple calculations to support my claim. The plain numbers are maximum damage values; the bold numbers are expectation values.

Black Staff: Br(8*MA) + Fa(11*MA) (20% Cast: Bio 3)
[Br(8)+Fa(11)]*MA (20% Add: Zombie)
[Br(8)+Fa(2.2)]*MA (4% Add: Zombie)

White Staff: Br(10*MA) + 7*MA (20% Cast: Bizen Boat)
[Br(10)+7]*MA
[Br(10)+1.4]*MA

Meteor Rod: Br(8*MA) + Fa(12*MA) (20% Cast: Meteor)
[Br(8)+Fa(12)]*MA
[Br(8)+Fa(2.4)]*MA

Read the numbers like this: The average WP for Black Staff is 10.2, and you need to invest in Brave to get 8 of that and Faith to get the other 2.2.

At 20% chance, the three weapons go super-Holy (i.e., >16*MA), but on average they are all weaker than Rainbow Staff (Br(12)*MA), and that's assuming the staff user has matching Brave and Fury. (e.g., a Rainbow Staff at 70 Brave must be compared to a White Staff at 70 Brave and 70 Faith.)

Now you'd be fair to ask how the above weapons compare at 40 Brave and 70 Faith.  This is the most disadvantageous comparison for Rainbow Staff. Let's plug the numbers right in. If we substitute 0.75 for Br and 1.05 for Fa, we get

Black Staff:
17.6*MA
8.3*MA

White Staff:
14.5*MA
8.9*MA

Meteor Rod:
18.6*MA
8.5*MA

Meanwhile, Rainbow staff is 9*MA.  Rainbow Staff still wins.  Of course, all values are equally bad.  At 9*MA, you might as well use a Paladin with a 17 WP Chaos Blade. That beast has 17.9*PA at 70 Brave, and a killer proc that works 100% of the time.

Thus, I conclude that the above weapons are weak on average, and only have the power to put the enemy under pressure when their spells are auto-cast.  They are Hail Mary weapons that let you down 80% of the time, like the Death spell.

Now let's look at the elemental rods. Those are good weapon if I do say so myself.

Fire Rod = Br(10*MA) + UnBr(7*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Fire)
[13.7 + Br(3)]*MA
[8.6 + Br(3)]*MA
Ice Rod = Br(9*MA) + UnBr(8*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Ice)
[14.8 + Br(1)]*MA
[9.0 + Br(1)]*MA
Thunder Rod = Br(8*MA) + UnBr(9*MA) (50% Cast: Nether Bolt)
[15.9 - Br(1)]*MA
[9.3 - Br(1)]*MA

The expectation values of the elemental rods are similar to the first three; neither comes close to rivaling Rainbow Staff; in that respect the elemental rods are equally lousy.  But, each of these rods hits nearly as hard as Holy when their spells auto-cast. In other words, these weapons let you down only 50% of the time.

(Incidentally, we have just proved here that, of the elemental rods, Fire Rod is the strongest and Thunder Rod is the weakest when both their spells autocast and on average, at any Brave.)

I think that Death is too inaccurate to cringe over, but your point is fair.  Yin Yang Magic is already all over the meta, and if this change would make that worse, then let's give Death to a less popular job (that has reason to use it).

Then we could swap Critical Quick with Distribute at the same time. Balance would also works on Lancer provided we overhaul its skill set.  The important thing is that Balance needs to be on a job with a high HP pool.

Transferring Flails to Scholars on grounds that Scholars can use them better than Priests is precisely my point.  It is true that Prismatic Rod is better than the Flails, as well.  I'm just trying to find a good home for Flails.

As for Priests having 4 Move to use flails better, my argument that Priests shouldn't put themselves into the thick of battle (to use flails or otherwise) still stands.  Giving Priests +1 Move to use flails better is like giving Wizards +1 Move to use daggers better.  If somebody is intent on using flails for offense, they'll make a Ninja.  Ninja also have 4 Move and are equally squishy, but can equip twice as many flails at a time.  If we want single-handed flails to compete with Ninja, then I think we should provide a better incentive than giving the job extra MP to juggle physical offense with White Magic support.  I am not saying brandishing a flail while supporting with White Magic isn't impossible; rather, there must be a better way to go about this without jeapordising Priests' primary role.  Giving Priests Move -1 as suggested elsewhere is OK, even though it would kill the Movement slot options of support Priests.

Honest, innocent question: What are 13 PA Monks without access to anything but Bags good for in the metagame?


With the computer I'm on when I write from work, the formatting tools don't work so they all have to be typed manually and/or copy pasted so I'll just respond to your points on a numbered system.

1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered. To be honest, I'm not even convinced of that as I think the "proc" weapons are a bit of a gamble and I'm okay with that. The Rainbow Staff is more consistent, but may not have the potential to one shot whereas these weapons will not either most of the time but when you do get lucky, you get very lucky. A rainbow staff whack may never one shot someone whereas a Meteor Rod whack will usually not, but at least has the opportunity to do so. (Note that I'm not mentioning critical hits as I wrote the word "never" because both weapons would have equal ability to do so which should negate one weapon's advantage over the other in this, crit shot only, comparison.) Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.

2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.) I actually really like Lancer getting it (again, I think I'm in the minority) though, but still like Time Magic having it as well. I know they can't use it the best, but it also doesn't have to be a OHKO for it to be effective. A 200-300 HP hit is still pretty noticeable, and with their higher speed, they can still make decent use of it (as skills that hit one panel generally need higher speed to be more effective.) IDK, this just might be a point we have to disagree on but see what other people have to say.

3. Well, I don't think Scholars get any use out of them was my point...I'd put them on TM before Scholar (and to be clear I wouldn't put them on TM either and I'm not suggesting that) because the Scholar has two pieces of equipment (Rods) that they can equip which means they never have use for any of the flails. I understand your point with the priest, but not all people need to build a team like that. For example, a SCC team with all priests might make use of them, or someone who wants a Melee unit, but also needs to have Supportive type stuff. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but it's there. You might argue that Priests have the Rainbow staff which is arguably better, but that might require MA stacking and if they want to equip things like the Green Beret or speed to make the priest able to get in the action easier, then the flails gain a bit more action.

I'm not totally against them losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.

4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 10:46:53 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered.


And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.


I hope my calculations have helped out a bit.  As they are, the elemental rods are kind of like the sisters of guns/flails: the rods' damage is roughly independent of Brave, just as the guns/flails damage are independent of PA and MA.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.)


True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
I'm not totally against [Priests] losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.


How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

Quote from: silentkaster on August 10, 2016, 03:54:19 pm
4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.


I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

As for the comparison between ton Monks and ton Squires, I believe Monks' higher HP, MP, SP, and access to Punch Art are well worth the loss of EV. By the numbers,

Monk (13+5 PA, 108 Gems, Attack UP):
30 effective PA, 335 HP, 98 MP, 9 SP, 10 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Poison/Sap immunity
Squire (10+8 PA, Kaiser Plate, Attack UP)
30 effective PA, 315 HP, 62 MP, 8 SP, 35 P-EV, 15 M-EV

For the cost of 25 P-EV and 15 M-EV, Monks get

The +1 SP boost alone is worth the price.  Just look at Swift Plate: 20 fewer P-EV and M-EV than Escutcheon II for +1 SP.

Dropping Monks to 12 base PA would drop their effective PA from 30 to 28, adding an extra cost of 2 PA for the above benefits.

Cross Monks getting nerfed is certainly true, but it is a price I would be willing to pay in exchange for making PA-based skills (like the new Jump) viable on other jobs without having Monks break them.

Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 11, 2016, 06:05:16 am
Quote from: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 10:46:53 pmEdit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.


For damage purposes, Dancers are just as good now at Jumping with Overwhelm and a Ryotian Silk or a high WP Sword. They only jump slower, which can be covered. (granted, you gotta focus on Jumping with the Dancer, but most use them purely for their PA anyway.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 12, 2016, 12:56:24 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 10:46:53 pm
And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.


The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.

While I see Dancer can use the PS with 12 PA, the 11 (and even 10) MA classes that can use the Rainbow Staff have skills in their primary skillset that can take advantage of added MA and/or movement that might be stacked. The Dancer does not (with the barely notable exceptions of Witch Hunt and Wiznaibus which gets boosted very small amounts comparatively with each stacking number.)

I actually always had an issue with Platinum Sword as it was just a weapon that was kinda "there." I think it at least has a place now on certain units like a support Geomancer or Paladin, but it's still not spectacular in my eyes. (Note that above 10 PA, a 2H Platinum Sword will deal more damage than a 2H Lionheart which I guess is something.)

On a side note, Berserk damage cannot be added to the Platinum Sword unless the unit is Always: Berserk. Rainbow Staff could get stronger with Berserk applied to the fighter in a fight.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 10:46:53 pm

True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).


I would be okay with them swapping rods and flails. That's about it. Again, I'm definitely not okay with Priests giving Flails to Scholars (unless Scholars give up Rods) period. Scholars get nothing from this exchange and Priests just lose something. Even if it were another weapon that priests pick up from Scholars, it would be beneficial only to the Priest and not the Scholar if it's flails that are exchanged.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 10, 2016, 10:46:53 pm
I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

I disagree. These skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 13, 2016, 02:44:54 pm

Quote from: silentkaster on August 12, 2016, 12:56:24 pm
The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.


Well, it's certainly possible to get high damage with Rainbow Staff if you sacrifice your support skill slot.  That's not overpowered.  People trade the extra damage of Rainbow Staff for the use of other support skills, the range of a longbow, bonus PA/MA/SP, and reliable status procs all the time.  However, I don't foresee many people trading up the extra damage for... far less reliable damage.

Quote from: silentkaster on August 12, 2016, 12:56:24 pm
I disagree. These [Punch Art] skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.


Maybe it's because I've been away for awhile, but in my 5+ years of experience with FFTA I've never seen a successful team use the top four skills of Punch Art for primary offense on anything but a Monk or Dancer.  I would love to be shown it can be done.


Would somebody care to give an account for following changes in 1.40a?  These must have been debated on Discord, because they were not discussed anywhere on the forums as far as I can tell.

QuoteBASIC SKILL
- Yell: Lost MP Regen, 0 MP

YIN YANG MAGIC
- Blind --> "Douse": 4 range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+65)%, M-Ev, reflectable, Adds: Darkness and Oil, CF and CM, 150 JP
- Blind Rage: Gained Darkness, 4 CT, Hit_F(MA+55)%
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on August 13, 2016, 04:52:45 pm
I have a geo on one of my beta test teams that uses the top 4 punch art skills pretty effectively, I think paladin (little less power tanky version), lancers (speed and/or power) or thieves (due to speed) can use those monk skills pretty well too. Also the nice thing about spin fist now is that it's smart targeting so pair it with 1 or 2 mimes and some pa stackage (sing or basic skill)........

*squires too^
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 13, 2016, 06:04:33 pm
@Gaignun: I would favour the linear formula (PA*10) a lot more than what we have currently.  We should definitely make this a thing!  We came-up with the Yell, Blind, and Blind Rage changes during the Discord 1.40a suggestions discussion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2016, 05:47:48 pm
Linear Punch Art!  As linear as FFXIII.

Were any arguments made for the Yell, Douse, and Blind Rage changes?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 15, 2016, 07:26:13 pm
Yell lost MP Regen because the AI likes to spam yell until all 4 party members are hasted, which wastes a lot of turns. Having that be the ONLY direct way to add MP Regen sucks, so we moved it to regen instead. Fortuntately, the AI will now use Regen as a set up spell, so the change has an additional bonus too. Douse came to be because we wanted a skill that inflicts oil directly due to removing oil from Hawk's eye.

Blind rage was changed because Insult outclassed it, and also due to the punny "Blind" Rage  :P . However, I currently have a problem with this skill mainly because the AI can't cure berserk and darkness at the same time (except through Heal, which requires being adjacent). It's very potent, so the accuracy should probably either go down or the skill could return to the way it was before.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2016, 08:50:38 pm
Ah, so MP Regen trips the AI into becoming a Yell bot? What status effect did MP Regen replace, by the way?  Also, could Yell spam be avoided if we give Yell HP Regen, as originally intended?

I am glad to hear you share my thoughts on Blind Rage. Like Silence, Blind is one of those status effects that cripples an entire type of unit (i.e., melee units), lasts forever, and is impossible to cure efficiently, since the AI prioritizes almost everything over curing Blind, including attacking with those Blinded units.  Before, the only way to reliably apply Blind was with Kiyomori, which also adds Poison.  The AI cures Poison well, so both ailments were usually healed together.  Now, Oracles can apply Blind with both Douse and Blind Rage.  In the case of Blind Rage, the AI can heal Berserk and only Berserk with Echo Grass, but will leave Blind be.

In a word, I think Blind Rage is currently OP. In the upcoming tournament, all melee units who face Yin Yang magicians and do not have Blind protection are going to be in real trouble.

My proposal would be to remove Add: Blind from Blind Rage.  Having one skill on Yin Yang magic add Blind is enough.  I think Douse is a great skill; it takes over Hawk's Eye, and most importantly the AI actually uses it. It is fine if Blind Rage is outclassed by Insult on average; in exchange, Blind Rage is affected by the Faith buff (which is now much easier to apply), sister skill Paralyze outclasses Blackmail, etc.

Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 16, 2016, 03:28:44 am
Its not the MP Regen, it's the haste. Yell is just an inherently bugged skill, doomed to be spammed until everyone is hasted. Anything we do to the skill is going to make this worse.

MP Regen is the blank status, and MP Poison in dark/evil looking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on August 18, 2016, 04:36:15 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2016, 08:50:38 pm
Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?


I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 18, 2016, 06:23:01 pm
The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 19, 2016, 04:27:32 am
Quote from: Andrew on August 18, 2016, 04:36:15 pm
I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.


You're right, Andrew.  They were PEV-based in 1.39.  I think I reported it back then, too, then subsequently forgot about it.

Quote from: CT5Holy on August 18, 2016, 06:23:01 pm
The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/


Indeed  ):
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 23, 2016, 08:32:57 am
After some thought: Even with the buffs to Ultima, it still feels like we're trying to make it underwhelming given that it's on Squire. It's easy to make it overpowered, yeah, but the fact that it's still 5 CT and on a somewhat low MA job doesn't give it the opportunity to really shine.

So a few alternative ideas: Make it PA based instead, so that it'll be the only true spell to use PA (the tons don't quite count), or give it something similar to the formula that poles use. That is, Max MA/PA *? (probably still 9).

Can this be seen as OP? Well, you'd see a few people try units stacked for PA (assuming 18) with Short Charge... But at most you'd probably only see damage around what would be Chiri for units stacked with MA (and Magic Attack UP) and STILL with a CT delay at that, though the smart targeting and unevadable nature would place it's desirability about = to Chiri.

I know in the past that people didn't really wanna touch Basic Skill because it's supposed to be "basic", but in a patch meant for balanced PvP combat, that concept feels silly because you're intentionally keeping something underpowered :v
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 23, 2016, 02:32:24 pm
I would like for Ultima to become PA/MA based. The only PA based AoE we really have are cover fire and the two PA based draw outs, and I'd really like to see more. This would also help male squires out a bit seeing as how they have the same PA as a female squire has MA. We also don't have any skills like this currently and it would be pretty unique in that regard. I like the idea of basic skill being basic in that it can work with a wide variety of builds, and this change provides that kind of versatility.

If that's not ok with most people, I would also be ok with it becoming purely PA based. The advantage there is that formula is already coded and everything, so all we have to do is patcher up and go. It would be boosted by attack up in this case, so just be aware of that.

It's all about options, and I don't think either change would step on the toes of anything we have currently because it still has 5 CT and is relatively weak unless you stat stack.

Speaking of PA/MA based things, What does everyone think of making cure 4 PA/MA based? It would still be a faith based emergency heal, but would then work for PA based classes as well. White Magic Lancers/Monks/Archers come to mind. I don't think this would step on chakra because chakra is instant, AoE, and recovers MP which synergizes well with MP Switch. They are two different skills amd have different uses. Also you would have to equip white magic, so it wouldn't be good for all builds/teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 24, 2016, 01:17:46 am
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 24, 2016, 01:20:07 am
My input:

Ultima formula change
I think Ultima is fine right now, but among the proposed formula I prefer max(PA/MA)*9 with a Matk UP modifier over PA*9 with an Atk UP modifier.  Don't forget that Ultima pierces evasion.  If Ultima becomes modified by Attack UP, then monks would gain access to a 5 Range 1 AoE Repeating Fist skill while also remaining equally capable of using their native skills.


Cure 4 formula changing to max(PA,MA)*15
I am usually in favour of increased variety. It is for this very reason that I would like to raise a dissenting opinion.  This would indeed open up White Magic to PA jobs, but it would relegate Item to even a more niche role.  White Magic (and particularly Cure 4) has been getting buffed and buffed over the years, whereas Item has remained unchanged.

Hear me out. In their present forms, Cure 4 is a supercharged X-Potion, Raise is a supercharged Phoenix Down, and Esuna is an AoE form of Antidote, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, and Bandage rolled into one.  These three skills are all yours for the low cost of 500 JP.  As a bonus, by purchasing these skills, we will also give you, for a small extra fee, Regen to cover your MP maintenance needs and Wall to watch yo' head.

Meanwhile, for a higher price of 800 JP, you can choose Item and settle for inferior forms of Cure 4, Raise, and Esuna.  In addition, to mimic the cast range of White Magic you will need to surrender an additional 250 JP and your support skill slot for Throw Item unless you are a Chemist, and you will have no means of applying Regen, Refresh, Protect, and Shell.

Long story short, White Magic is already superior to Item as a support skill set.  Item is typically chosen over White Magic only for curing Berserk and Undead, healing with PA jobs, and supporting ultra-low BrFa teams.  Moving this healing role over to White Magic feels like stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.


Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 24, 2016, 02:58:10 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on August 24, 2016, 01:17:46 am
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.


My main point is that yeah, it's still underwhelming compared to other skills. The smart-targeting aspect improved it greatly, but there's still room for that last push to making it great - Right now it's still an undesirable choice.

Not so much being on Basic Skill that makes it underpowered, far from it. Rather, I'd like to see anyone able to pick up Basic Skill and being able to use it with a broader setup, which the Max of PA/MA would allow, and would let Ultima Blade become super good in the right hands.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 03, 2016, 12:14:48 pm
My input to the suggestion list uploaded by silentkaster on 1 September.  There are a ton of suggestions in this list, so I will break up my comments with spoiler tags.  Most comments of my own proposals are omitted.

2016.09.01 Suggestions


1. Remove C-Ev: We will need to think carefully about the ramifications of this, as all physical damage (weapons and skills) have been balanced with C-Ev in mind up until now.  The most apparent change to the meta is that all physical damage will become much more reliable. (E.g., Punch Art's Spin Fist will become at least as beastly as Chirijiraden.)  Attempting to compensate for this by boosting HP, etc. will have additional ramifications on job balancing etc.  In short, I believe this change can be done, but not frivolously.

I would also like to mention that this change will also reduce the randomized nature of matches.  Very few jobs have access to shields, so these jobs will need to equip a mantle or use Equip Shield to add P-Ev.  Assuming that the meta remains unchanged and few of these shieldless jobs do this, all physical attacks will hit these jobs with the reliability of guns.  This means we will no longer see those miraculous 5~10% dodges that allow an ailing team to overturn the state of battle.  If we're OK with this, then  go right ahead.

2. Dancer +1 PA: No opinion for now, but Lord knows this class needs something.

3. Classes lose access to innate, obsolete Movement skills: I agree.

4. Monks lose access to bags: Cautious agreement. Monks loss of access to the +2 PA bag should be done in tandem with Punch Art balancing.  I'd hate to nerf Monk's damage to oblivion.

5. Monks lose base HP: I think Monks' HP is fine where it is, personally.

6. Monks gain innate Martial Arts at the expense of losing base PA: I disagree. This would make balancing Punch Art across the jobs even more difficult.  The innate Martial Arts modifier can be multiplied by the Attack UP modifier to boost PA by a factor of 2. No other job can compete with that.

7. Swap Summoners' and Time Mage's base HP: I am OK with this.  I think shield-toting Time Mages are a little strong at the moment, after all.  (More on Time Mages at the end of this post.)



Basic Skill

  • Reduce Concentrate's JP: I think Concentrate is fine where it is.  This will change if we remove C-Ev.

  • Make Ultima max(PA,MA)*9: OK.

  • Cheer Up (0 AoE MP healing): Sure, if the ASM hack is not too much trouble.

  • Recover (self-targeting HP healing): Don't we already have Nurse for this?  Why not just move Nurse to Basic Skill?



Black Magic

  • Boost Dark Holy to MA*15 : I disagree. I think Dark Holy is already plenty strong for an Unbrave spell.

  • Poison gains Add Sap: Worth a shot I guess. (See my suggestions at the end of this post.)



Chivalry

  • Reduce Consecration JP cost to 200 and increase accuracy : I agree with both.

  • Increase accuracy of Lay on Hands by 5%: I am still in favour of making this UnFaith for optimum synergy with its host Paladin class, but this is compromise is easier to implement, I suppose.

  • Preservation: Sounds neat. I recommend a low JP cost, as a winning team never counts on staying dead.



Elemental

  • Move Move-HP UP to Mediator: I am OK with this

  • Geomastery: Cool idea, but geomancy is in need of a nerf.  To prepare for the introduction of this ability, I strongly recommend reducing geomancy damage across the board. (More on this at the end of this post.)



Item

  • Antidote cures Sap: I am OK with this, and also strongly in favour of this if Black Magic Poison adds Sap.

  • Chrono's Tear cures Slow: Also OK.  Can we also rename this item "Chronos Tear" while we're at it?  This ain't Chrono Trigger.

  • Echo Grass cures Charm, no longer cures Sap: OK

  • Ether and Hi-Ether cure +10 MP: Absolutely in favour.

  • Maiden's Kiss cures Petrify, no longer cures Sleep: Kinda ruins the Sleeping Beauty mythos of the name, but no particular objections here.

  • Smelling Salts: I doubt the AI will heal 90 HP and 20 MP with Smelling Salts when it can heal 130 HP with X-Potion and 80 MP with Hi-Ether.  Rather, this will be used to counter Mimic Daravon teams, where units who spend a turn applying Sleep will have their efforts, as well as 90 points of previously-applied damage, negated with Smelling Salts.

  • Phoenix Pinion: Nice idea for elevating Item as a support skill set. I suppose we can debate the exact healing amount later.

  • Volatile Flask: I am cautious about the utility of this skill.  The AI will use it as it uses Wall, but it will have only half the efficacy 66% of the time, and none of the efficacy 33% of the time (i.e. when Transparent is added).  Good idea, at least.  Perhaps we can expand on it.



Jump

  • Equip Polearm gives Cloth access: Sure.



Lore

  • Rework mapwide Lore into random-fire AoE: Excellent idea.  I had completely forgotten about this proposal of Dokurider's.  Is Dokurider able to help with this hack?



Ninjutsu

  • Misogi also removes Faith and Undead: Good idea about Faith.  Undead healing is also welcome, although if expanding Undead healing is what we're after, then it would be better to put Undead healing on a skill which can target other units. (See the end of this post.)

  • Shuriken changes: Among all suggestions, I am in favour of reverting Shuriken to its form in 1.39.

  • Adding Lightning elemental ton: Sure.



Punch Art

  • Linear Punch Art damage: To clarify, I originally suggested that only Spin Fist and Earth Slash have PA*10.  Repeating Fist and present-day Aurablast would have PA*12.  However, these multipliers will need to be adjusted in accordance with patch 1.41.  For example, if we remove C-Ev or leave Monk's base PA at 13, then we will need to drop these multipliers by one or two points.  I will renew this proposal once the final form of patch 1.41 starts to materialize.

  • Stigma Magic cures Berserk/Slow: If we add Berserk/Slow healing, then we ought to remove some other status healing to avoid turning Stigma Magic into a super Esuna. Petrify, Sleep, and/or Frog come to mind.



Snipe

  • Equip Ranged gives Harp access: I'm fine with this.  Pairs nicely with Equip Polearm giving Cloth access.

  • Hawk's Eye changes: No comments for now.

  • Monkey Grip: Cute idea, but I must reserve my judgment until I consider whether this skill would open up any potentially broken combinations or extinguish any currently viable combinations. (A 16 WP Gastrafitis with a shield triumphing over any other crossbow comes to mind.)



Steal

  • Ruins: I wonder if it is possible to change these to reducing a significant amount of PA, MA, and SP, but only temporarily as if they were status ailments.

  • Piracy: Nice idea for punishing speed freaks, although I'm not sure what the skill has to do with piracy.  Double damage to Hasted units seems a little extreme, however.  If there will be such a modifier, can we reduce it to 1.25~1.50?



Summon Magic
The proposals to Bahamut and Cyclops are OK with me.  Actually, I would like add my own summon magic proposals while we're at it.  Please see the end of this post.

  • Short Charge moving to Time Magic: I respect Barren's argument, but nevertheless I find Short Charge just as useful on Summoners, as Summons have some of the highest CTs in the game (6 CT Odin? Yikes!).  Ultimately, it's a tossup. However, I would rather have 1/3 of MP moved to Time Magick over Short Charge.  While Short Charge works on both Time Mages and Summoners, 1/3 of MP is unquestionably better for Time Magic users because they do not have Carbuncle.

  • Caution: It would be nice if this reaction ability could also subsume Awareness, as both reactions are a little lackluster on their own.

  • Increase Short Charge's JP to 500: I need to disagree here.  Both Short Charge and Magic Attack UP have a place.  Among the damage magic, Magic Attack UP is a huge opportunity cost for Short Charge.  Among the status magic, of course Short Charge is more useful. However, this doesn't mean Short Charge is superior to Magic Attack UP.  Rather, Short Charge and Magic Attack UP fulfill different roles. For example, Magic Attack UP beats Short Charge when using 0-CT magic such as Draw Out, Elemental, Counter Flood, Cure 1, and Dia.



Talk Skill

  • Drop Insult's JP cost to 200: Assuming we leave Blind Rage unchanged, this is justifiable.

  • Move Move-1 to Priests: OK

  • Increase Solution's JP cost to 200: OK.



Time Magic

  • Comet gains CM, CF flags: OK.

  • Demi 2 damage increases to 66%: Hesitantly optimistic.  This will turn Demi 2 into a ~200 damage AoE nuke with no MA-stacking required. Then again, it is less accurate than Black Magic and can never 1HKO.  Maybe this is OK?

  • Remove Float from the game: I'm scratching my head over this one.  Unless we're in need of memory space, Float is harmless on Time Magic. Float is nice; it lets me hard-counter Earth spam, gives me +1 Jump, and lets me glide over water.  I like Float. (I just like Move-MP UP better.) If we need to free up memory for new Movement skills, kill something like Fly instead.  Fly is a Teleport clone.

  • Remove Haste 2 and Slow 2: Noooo ;~; . I like these 2 AoE spells.  If you think the AI spams Haste 2 and Slow 2, wait until you see them spam Haste 1 and Slow 1.  With 1 AoE Haste/Slow, you often fail to target all relevant units in a single cast, so you waste the second turn casting the same spell again. Meanwhile, 1 AoE Slow is too terrible to be worth the turn that's spent casting it.  If you're going for a 1 AoE Slow, you might as well go for a 1 AoE Stop instead.  Why are these 2 AoE spells seen as so OP that we ought to remove them?

  • Sinkhole becomes unreflectable: OK.



White Magic

  • Nerf Cure 4: I say we reduce the multiplier or revert the CT to 3.

  • Esuna cures Berserk: I would not like Esuna to heal Berserk if Stigma Magic does as well.  One or the other, I say.

  • Esuna no longer heals Charm: Fine by me. White Magic could use some small nerfs.

  • Esuna cures Slow: We already have an AoE spell that cures Slow.  It's called Haste.

  • Nerf Holy to MA*15: Is the general consensus that Holy is still too powerful?  This spell has been getting nerfed and nerfed over the years.  I personally think Holy's position on White Magic is its biggest strength. Put it on something like Black Magic or Lore and we'll see it used much less.

  • Buff Protect and Shell: Insightful analysis by Andrew. It was originally suggested that Protect and Shell heal some HP while applying their respective buffs, but this proposal was lost in the transition to 1.40. (Actually, I am not sure how dirty a hack is required to pull this off.)  A much easier and straightforward solution would be to make Protect and Shell like Wall.  (I think I'd still use Wall over Protect and Shell, though. And that's a shame, because I love the cast animations of Protect 2 and Shell 2)

  • Raise 2 heals 99% to make Cursed Ring more viable: Even if we reduce healing from 100% to 99% undead's best safeguard from the Raise 2 nuke is, and will likely continue to be, MP Switch. At any rate, this is such a small nerf to Raise 2 that I cannot object.

  • Regen changes: This skill has finally become useable (and is, in my opinion, the single greatest change of 1.40), so I'd hate to see it nerfed. Nevertheless, in the interest of weakening White Magic, I recommend moving Regen to Lore.  (See the end of this post for a detailed argument.)



Yin Yang Magic

  • Blind Rage loses 10% accuracy: I respect Andrew's suggestion, but slashing Blind Rage's accuracy by 10% would likely consign it to oblivion. This is especially true if we also make Stigma Magic and/or Esuna cure Berserk, and also spread around Berserk immunity on caster equipment.




Interesting ideas on the whole.  My initial impressions:

  • Aquatic (M), +2 Move in water:Limited usefulness.  Not many maps have water.

  • Back attack (M), +25% physical damage from behind: No opinion at the moment.

  • Coated Weapon (S), Add Poison/Sap if target is in Critical after a (weapon?) attack: Sounds kind of weak.  Rather than play with poison, I'd equip Attack UP and kill the target outright.

  • Mirror force (R), Add Reflect when taking HP damage: A hard counter to Black Magic and Yin Yang Magic users without Dispel Magic .  Are we OK with this?

  • Elementalist (M), Reduce elemental damage by 12%: Sounds like a support ability to me.  I bet you can make some super tanky units with Elementalist and Magic Defend UP/Unyielding.

  • Null: Reflect (M), support magic pierces reflect: Great idea for incorporating Reflect Ring on magic-based teams.  My favourite RSM suggestion.

  • Requiem (R), inflict Bln/DM/Slw/Stp on attacker: Sounds sinister.  Not yet sure whether this is OP.

  • Shed (M), remove one status ailment after moving: This is definitely OP.  Unless you are getting hit by Kagesougi, you will likely be inflicted with at most one ailment per turn, so limiting the healed ailments to one per turn largely irrelevant. Why bother with Poison/Sap/Blind/DA/Berserk/Slow/Frog/Faith/Innocent protection when this skill will automatically remove them after moving? Oracles and Mediators will dump turns into casting status magic over and over on these units, while these units will charge right ahead and punch them in the face on every turn the status magic misses.

  • Vengeance (R), remove all buffs from the attacker when targeted by status magic: Cautiously optimistic about this one.




  • Increase Black Staff's proc rate to 33%: Welcome change.  We can reduce its WP as well if needs be.

  • Bow Gun, 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 33% Cast: Death: At first I thought it was 33% Add: Dead and got excited, but then saw that I misread the spell "Death" and felt sad.  This Bow Gun is pretty bad. Throwing Knife, another ranged accessory, outright kills its targets at 33% (although with a two-turn delay) and gives +15% W-EV and +1 Move as a bonus. 

  • Chaos Blade removes Refresh: Good idea.

  • Ethereal Spear inflicts Sap: OK.

  • Reduce Gambler's Axe's proc rate or WP: Is this axe OP?  I do not have enough experience with this axe to comment.

  • Gastrafitis becomes 12 WP, +2 PA, and one-handed: Nice idea. It's present form really doesn't fit with the other bows.

  • Healing Gun gains 2 range: How amusing.  I was about to suggest the very same thing!

  • Ice Brand and Thunder Blade gain +1 MA: OK. I don't think these swords are admired for their procs, anyway.

  • Masamune 15 WP, +1 SP, 2 Range, Immune Slow, Forced 2H: So, basically a superior form of the current Masamune. The current Masamune has -1 SP, but gives back this SP through Always Haste.  In addition, it turns the next point of added SP into +2 SP.  For example, a Samurai with Masamune and Genji Helm has 10 SP. With this new version, the Samurai will also have 10 SP. However, the important difference is that with this new version the samurai can be hasted to achieve 12 SP. If we recognize and are OK with this, then I have no objections.

  • Meteor Rod procs 200 damage comet: I'm OK with this for now.  Meteor Rod is certainly in need of a buff!

  • Night Killer, 33% Add Blind & Poison: Certainly better than its current form.  I still think this weapon is weak, however.

  • Platinum Sword, Immune: Slow: Welcome change.  Will help teams cope with Slow 2. (Fingers crossed that we do not kill Slow 2.)

  • Spellgun nerfs: I am personally in favour of dropping their WP by 1 or dropping their range by 1~2, but not both.

  • Dwarven Fan, 33% Cast Quake: Could be good on Scholars!

  • El Bow, Two-Swordable Crossbow: Fun idea for extending the range of melee weapons.  However, I believe the only class that has access to both Crossbows and melee weapons is Squire.  Still fine by me.




  • Swift Plate changes: My favourite suggestion is that the shield keeps +1 SP, but gains Haste immunity.  This will curb its use on Time Mages.  Also, I would suggest we also give the shield Slow immunity since Haste will not be able to remove this ailment.

  • Chivalry shields: Wouldn't it be easier to simply put the new skills on Chivalry and let these skills be used in spite of the shield?





  • Armor adding MP: Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer clothes and robes to be solely responsible for adding MP. Paladin, Lancers, and Samurai have access to robes for providing MP. As an alternative, there is 1/3 of MP.

  • Chakra Band losing -1 SP: Although I was initially hesitant, I do not mind -1 SP on Chakra Band after seeing teams still using it in the present tournament.  If we remove -1 SP anyway, perhaps reducing its HP to 10~20 would be an appropriate trade.

  • Golden Hairpin halves Holy & Dark: I am OK with this provided we add Holy & Dark strengthening to a robe as Andrew suggests.

  • Light Robe now adds Don't Act immunity instead of Always Regen: By removing Always Regen we are forsaking Paladins.  Light Robe has always been a Paladin robe since Paladins (1) have high HP pools to leverage Regen and (2) need an MP pool to use Chivalry skills.  Light Robe in its current form will be more relevant than ever if P Bag is changed to add Always Refresh and only Always Refresh (like Rune Blade).

  • Mythril Helmet provides +1 Move: Glad someone addressed my biggest concern with armored job: Their terrible Move stat.  I am completely in favour of turning this helmet into a Green Beret for armored jobs. 

  • Robe of Lords gains Sap immunity: Welcome suggestion.

  • Bronze Armor, Init: Innocent: OK.





  • Cursed Ring provides 100% revival: Disagree with this proposal.  We had Cursed Ring like this before, and it was as OP as hell.

  • Reflect Ring turns into a PA-based ring: Don't agree with the provided arguments. Reflect Ring is right at home on casters to cover high Faith, and this strategy is punished by Summon Magic.  The inability to cast support magic on units with Reflect Ring will be deftly solved if we implement DW's proposed Null: Reflect movement ability.




  • Killing Float: I personally like Float as an additional means of nullifying Earth damage.  In exchange, we make (or at least try to make) Earth magic more powerful than average.  This adds a bit of diversity between the elements. E.g.

    • Fire is wide AoE, but weak

    • Ice is average in power and affordable

    • Lightning is powerful, but expensive

    • Wind is fast but weak

    • Water is average in power, debuffs, and pierces reflect

    • Earth is average in speed, but hits like a truck


    Owing to the potency of 1HKO strategies, players have additional options for countering Earth damage.  I suppose this is really a matter of personal opinion.

  • Merge Poison and Sap: Not necessary in my opinion.  We need some easy ailments to apply, and Poison is one of them.  Merging Poison with Sap would make the ailment more powerful than it needs to be.




And finally, the most dreaded content of all


  • Undead healing: This ailment is powerful owing to the dearth of ways to heal it.  (Currently, only Holy Water cures Undead). In the interest of turning Undead into a more manageable ailment, and also making Squires and their skill set more viable, I propose we buff Heal:

    Heal: 2 Range, 0 AoE, Cancel: Berserk, Charm, Darkness, Poison, Oil, Stop, Undead


  • Scholars, Poison, and Regen: Persisting in my pursuit of the tank mage, I propose we give Scholars access to helmets as well as armor (and optionally also Shields at the expense of 1 or so base MA; Time Mages can lose shields while receiving something else, like +1 SP).  Hat access would be removed in exchange.  Next, we move Regen and Poison to Lore. The higher HP pool provided by full armor allows Scholars to leverage Regen.  Poison tags along as the antithesis of Regen, and viola: Scholars become the masters of HoT DoTs.


  • Geomancy: I feel that Geomancy is too strong at present.  Let's list its strengths:

    • 5 range

    • 0 CT

    • 1 AoE

    • Inflicts status ailments

    • Ignores evasion

    • Ignores Brave and Faith

    • Works with Counter Flood (This last one is a big strength)


    In patch 1.40, on top of all of the above, we gave Geomancers +1 PA and MA and also boosted the constant of non-elemental geomancy by 2.  Now we have Carve Models doing over 150 evasion-piercing, non-elemental damage on and between turns.  At the very least, I suggest we drop non-elemental geomancy to pre-1.40 levels.




In the words of James Brown, "Good God!" This was a long post.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 03, 2016, 07:07:22 pm
Why we will never give another Mage a Shield.

So long as Aegis Shield exists, you can not give another Mage Aegis shield. TM are only MA 9. On any Damaging Build they automatically go to 10 MA, get 30% M-Ev and 5% P-Ev.

This is fine on Time Mage, it puts them in line with White Mages and gives them a Evasion Edge. Other Mages innately start with a Better MA, more weapons and a more supportive or Damaging skillset. The Time Mage on the other hand, is a fifty/fifty skillset on support and disruption. They are not in and other themselves game winners, beyond Haste/Slow/Stop, which other skillsets do well and only Archers do it with Shields.

IF another mages gains shields they gain a free point of MA and a Free 30% M-Ev. I don't want Wizards getting any more power, and they are the least likely to get shields. However, a White Mage and Oracle now equals a Summoner and Summoner and Scholar equal a Black Mage with a free 30% M-Ev. If you nerf their MA, everyone who wants a damage mage will now have to Auto Equip Aegis Shield and you must commit to killing them with Physical Evasion, or Unevadeables. You can't punish people who don't want to build a Evasive, Magic User, by reducing their damage dealing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 03, 2016, 08:51:27 pm

We all know I'm a geomancer nut but I don't see how geomancy needs a nerf. I think it's in the perfect spot right now. The real problem is counter flood which is basically free damage when hit with almost anything (the flags in patcher apparently don't affect the actual trigger). Counter Flood is particularly strong right now due to the damage bug that makes a charged skill or reaction (anything that happens in between turns) depend on fury. I have had 176 damage Elementals due to this bug. Without this bug (which I've fixed, btw- patch might come out soon) we'll have to see if counter flood damage is still a problem.

If we really need to nerf it that badly, Gatebuster proposed lowering elemental's range to 3 or 4. I'm ok with this as that allows mimes to be used effectively with these skills (the current range is too much for the mime to position themselves with a lot of skills).

There's not really much else we can DO to it to be honest. This is why I've been advocating changes to elemental, because something just doesn't sit right with me on how it works in a tournament patch setting. Geomancy is in a sort of unstable equilibrium right now, and the fact that there aren't that many ways to adjust Geomancy makes it very hard to balance (similar to magic guns). This is why I've been seeming like a crazy person and babbling about changing geomancy somewhat radically from its percieved "anti-sandbag" function.


Most of us are on board with this because it's a more elegant, smoother, well thought out way to make it work. Right now we have several problems with the new statuses, including the AI not curing Sap correctly and not being able to give these statuses a CT. These statuses have almost no AI coding either. Right now, Sap feels like a chunky add-on (ESPECIALLY Sap) that was introduced just to counter Refresh and never actually incorporated into the game. Like that one thing that's just there and not really utilized.

If we were to merge the statuses though, The AI cures poison well and uses it to midcharge casters often. They would use Poison and Regen's CT, so we no longer have to deal with them not lasting on death. We know that the AI does stuff with the blank status if we put it on regen, so we can still use it as a dummy status on that skill. This solves all of those problems and we don't need any new ASMs. It's much easier on me too since I don't have to try and replace the CT of other statuses just to make this idea work.


Quote
Remove Haste 2 and Slow 2: Noooo ;~; . I like these 2 AoE spells.  If you think the AI spams Haste 2 and Slow 2, wait until you see them spam Haste 1 and Slow 1.  With 1 AoE Haste/Slow, you often fail to target all relevant units in a single cast, so you waste the second turn casting the same spell again. Meanwhile, 1 AoE Slow is too terrible to be worth the turn that's spent casting it.  If you're going for a 1 AoE Slow, you might as well go for a 1 AoE Stop instead.  Why are these 2 AoE spells seen as so OP that we ought to remove them?

Haste 2 and Slow 2 are OP because they are smart targeting and 2 AoE, meaning you can spam them to your liking without the consequence of accidentally hitting a teammate with slow or hasting an enemy. It's a HUGE advantage for fast teams. I don't know if you saw that one match where my 8 SP team with no slow protection was completely rendered useless by these 2 skills because they couldn't do anything (enemy team was too fast with 10 SP + haste). If we try to reduce their accuracy, the skill becomes spammed just as much as yell. If we try to increase their JP cost, they become nigh unusable on most support builds. MP cost doesn't matter. Making them no longer smart target might be a bad idea because then they will backfire counter-productively. So...what else CAN we do to them?

Every team packs haste due to the lack of slow removal or protection we have in the game, as I guess these statuses were balanced with the aspect that they cancel each other in mind. We wanted to transition into a meta where haste isn't necessary on every single team in the world, hence why we are advocating more slow removal and reducing sources of haste.


I like float too! I'm not sure why Andrew was all gung-ho about removing float and every source of float from human access. The null-earth aspect is also its most useful aspect, and if we take that away then there's not really any reason to use it. Also monsters NEED the float/fly movement skills or else they will look incredibly awkward when treading through water. We can't just give every monster innate walk on water because A) that wastes an RSM slot and B) that gives those monsters an unfair advantage. I like float the way it is and don't want to see it changed.

But I'll still whip up a remove null: earth hack regardless.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 03, 2016, 09:31:25 pm
On Float... If Float blocked Earth skills but not Earth Weapons I am ok with it. Earth skills roughly number 5. (Kiku, Quake, Earth Slash, Titan, Geomancies.) (I may have missed one.) Blocking all of those and then blocking all Earth-modified Weapons Skill including Grand and Southern Cross... That sucks. But then you take away the Giant Axe's ability to hit you. You remove Kiku, you remove any future earth weapon from the Equation... That sucks... In my opinion, leaving Float, and allowing to block Earth Skills should come at a cost. Weakness to (Wind or Lightning weapons and abilities.) or Earth Weapons... This would mean that when your floating your protected from Earth Dragon, Earth Slash, ect... But you do have a trade off. However small.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 01:30:25 pm
Why don't we change Float so that it nulls Dark and Holy instead of Earth?  They're hard to counter due to the lack of half: X for them, easy to strengthen due to Golden Hairpin, and are often desirable to pair with one another (Bizen Boat/Kotetsu; Holy and Dark Holy).  So, wouldn't this change be the most appropriate?  People would be running Float much more often!  In case you weren't aware, I'm definitely kidding about this, since it would be *much* more feasible to simply change Golden Hairpin's strengthen Dark+Holy to half: Dark+Holy (and then introduce a new robe that grants Dark+Holy strengthening) than to do something like that.

Pre-140, I understood why Float nulled Earth, and it was mostly due to how OP Quake was at the time.  So, since Quake was already nerfed appropriately... why does Float still null Earth?  I think that the answer is Diamond Armlet & Earth Clothes.  Diamond Armlet provides some very handy status immunities (Oil+Slow), +1 PA, +1 MA, *and* absorbs Earth.  Earth Clothes absorbs *and* strengthens Earth, something that is only seen elsewhere on the Mace of Zeus, and for Lightning instead.  Why is Mace of Zeus rarely used despite doing this?  Because it's a weapon with low WP, and is limited to jobs that can equip staves, while Earth Clothes is body armour that can be worn by most jobs.  So, it's plain to see that these two pieces of equipment make Earth absorb team building a breeze.

If Float were to lose its null: Earth property, then Diamond Armlet & Earth Clothes could safely be nerfed with no consequences balance-wise.  Diamond Armlet could simply lose its +1 MA, which would promote Diamond Armlet to a physically-inclined accessory, and would mirror Magic Ring nicely.  Earth Clothes could go 100 HP/10 MP, lose its Earth strengthening, and gain Fire absorb; Black Costume could lose its Fire absorb and gain Water absorb; Rubber Costume could lose its Water absorb and gain Holy absorb.  There, all of the clothes would provide absorb options for all elements, and were swapped around to avoid OP absorb stacking for certain skillsets.

So, if the above changes were to happen, what benefits would Float provide still?  It would increase the affected's height by 1 and allow them traverse over water unimpeded.  That's nice and all, but hardly relevant due to the lack of maps with large bodies of water.  Float (movement) would be a disappointing waste of space, and Float (status) could simply be stripped from Diamond Helmet and it would still be a great choice, since people used the Crystal Helmet pre-140 and all it did was provide Don't Act immunity.

While we were developing 140, there were hypothetical suggestions for providing Float with alternate boons if its null Earth property was removed: WKW suggested that it could gain +1 Move and +1 Jump, but this would make the Float Movement skill incredibly desirable over Move +1 or Jump +1.  If there were others, I don't remember them, because they were (probably) not good enough *to* remember.  I still feel that simply removing Float's null Earth property, making the above changes to Diamond Armlet/Earth Clothes, and limiting its access to Bombs and Ghosts (two monster families that need always Float in order to not look glitchy) would be the most appropriate change we could make.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 04, 2016, 01:51:35 pm
@Float.

With Andrew's idea of reworking Elemental clothes, I'd be ok with float being Removed altogether as a human option and only being something monsters can use in the future. Removing a point of MA off Diamond Armlet and reworking the clothes set to be more comprehensive on elemental absorb is a nice start. The proposed rework to Golden Hairpin, means that monk will lose elemental strengthening outside of 108 gems. I am completely ok with this, as Monks still have Chakra band.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 04, 2016, 02:23:41 pm
Merging Poison/Regen: Roger. I did not realise we would merge Regen and Refresh as well.  I have one concern: Hawk Eye and Scorpion Tail do big damage while incidentally applying Poison at a high rate.  If Poison turns into a mage killer, then something about these things might be in need of an adjustment.

Concerning Scorpion Tail, if this weapon remains unchanged, can we remove Flail access from Ninja?. When patch 1.40 reverted Scorpion Tail to 12 WP, Scorpion Tail's damage was boosted by 25% on Ninja with Attack Up.  These Ninja are hitting 40 Br units for over 300 damage without stacking a single point of PA.  Keep an eye on True Light's Ninja in the present tournament to see what I mean.

Since the Refresh flag has turned out to be an excellent method for coaxing the AI to use spells proactively, why not add it to Protect and Shell?  That way the AI will open battles with these spells as they ought to.  Wall can remain as a reactionary spell for the sake of variation.

Haste/Slow 2: Why not remove smart targeting and let the spells ocassionally backfire?  To use Slow 2, one's frontline units will require Slow immunity to avoid friendly fire.

Mages and shields: To clarify, I am suggesting we give Scholars shields in place of Time Mages.  Time Mages would receive 10 SP and become the Thieves of the magic world. Scholars would lose base MA so that they do not become Wizards with free EV.

Aegis Shield is a problem of its own.  It has been the most powerful all-purpose shield for mages ever since Venetian Shield became Swift Plate years ago.  I actually wanted to propose changes to Aegis Shield as well as Genji Shield in my previous post, but ran out of energy before writing them down.  Here they are:

Aegis Shield: 0 PEv, 25 MEv, +1 MA, Innocent immunity (partially subsumes Secular Shield)
Genji Shield: 25 PEv, 0 MEv, +1 PA, Darkness immunity

The Genji Shield change incidentally opens up the accessory slot for light armoured Grand Cross users (i.e. Squire and Geomancer).

Float: I cannot say anything at the moment about killing Float and shuffling around elemental absorptions because I am struggling to comprehend the arguments.  However, I can say that Earth elemental weapons do indeed ignore Float.  I recall seeing Earth elemental Grand Crosses hitting floating Time Mages while preparing for the present tournament.

Geomancy: Non-elemental Geomancy still pushes 150 according to its formula.  That's comparable to Draw Out.  It is mainly this non-elemental damage that I am concerned about, as there is no way to protect oneself from it other than with Shell.  Would it be agreeable if we gave all non-elemental geomancy an element and dropped their formula constants to 2?  That way geomancy fans can still deal high damage, while victims can protect themselves better with clothes, the above-proposed Elementalist movement ability, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 02:56:23 pm
I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 04, 2016, 03:39:26 pm
I'm hoping for changes 2 or 3 for the shuriken formula (based off the suggestions Andrew sent me) because it does need a damage buff.

If we have to revert it back to 1.39, my only condition is that it doesn't phase through walls. Because if you were to hire a assassin let's say to come to someone's house and kill them, would they try to throw a shuriken throw a brick wall and hope it hits the target? Just think about how stupid the assassin would be for trying.

Anyhow, shuriken should still feel like it's a fresh addition to 1.4 and different from 1.39. That's all I hope for in the end.

I would still keep float too. People just haven't found reason to use it. But people also forget that since it's immune to earth, not even Oil can override it
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 04, 2016, 03:51:00 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 02:56:23 pm
I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.


I couldn't have worded it any better. With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140, but since we've never seen the null: earth on float be a problem before, I don't see a justification for removing it. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 04:35:10 pm
I give up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Quote from: dw6561 on September 04, 2016, 03:51:00 pm
With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140...


Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 04, 2016, 07:02:50 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.


I'm going to put a well thought out argument for Robes, Clothes and Hats to have some changes. Mostly it will be Elemental Interactions that I am looking at but won't touch the Stat-giving items. (They're in a nice place.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 05, 2016, 07:10:27 am
I'm looking forward to it, gatebuster.

Quote from: Barren on September 04, 2016, 03:39:26 pmBut people also forget that since [Float is] immune to earth, not even Oil can override it


That is a good point.

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.


I agree.  In fact, I was a bit surprised to see MA*8 in the new formula for Bizen Boat.

For the sake of argument, is anyone comfortable with the idea of turning 1/3 of MP into Three Stars, a support ability (named after its appearance in Final Fantasies VI and X) which reduces the MP cost of all spells to 1?  Even with 1/3 of MP, units with low MP pools (e.g., Archer, Paladin, Thief) still expend their entire base MP bar after three or four casts of reasonably expensive magic (e.g., Raise 2, Demi 2, Paralyze).  Consequently, these classes must nevertheless equip at least one piece of MP equipment, usually Golden Hairpin or a robe, for sustained spellcasting.  How much better would this support ability be if its application allows one to eschew MP equipment entirely?

Perhaps a little. Think of it like this: Attack UP usually boosts PA by 3~4.  This allows players to equip their units with armor other than Twist Headband and Power Sleeve while maintaining the same effective PA.  By the same token, Three Stars will allow players to equip their low-MP units with armor other than Golden Hairpin/robes.  Thus, Three Stars and Attack UP become more comparable in potency at the design stage.

Nevertheless, Three Stars has its downside in battle, and thus is yet less potent than Attack UP.  By eschewing MP equipment with Three Stars, one becomes extremely vulnerable to MP damage; for example, a single tap of a Mage Masher by a feeble Wizard will nearly burn the entire MP bar of a 19 MP Thief.  And since Three Stars does not completely remove MP cost, such MP damage can still disrupt spell casting.  This downside also applies to those scheming to pair MP Switch and Three Stars together: Block a big hit with MP Switch and you'll still lose a turn recovering lost MP, Three Stars be damned.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 05, 2016, 09:20:19 am
When I said that I didn't mean that golden hairpin changed, I was referring to the suggestion for it to half holy/dark. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 05, 2016, 06:10:28 pm
Okay, here are my thoughts on some stuff that I see proposed. I've only commented on stuff I'm not mostly indifferent on, or that I don't agree with. I kinda went in order of Gaignun's post as the document I had was at work. To be clear, if I haven't commented, it means I'm neutral or in agreement with the change (or my level of agreement/disagreement isn't too significant at the present moment.)


Totally against this. This adds an element of randomness to the game and there are so many ways around C-EV that we often don't even see it come into play at all during a match. I understand this was proposed for consistency and for elemental absorb teams so that attacks don't miss on team mates, but we balanced this last patch with elemental absorb teams taking a lot of fore-front and while I'm okay with that, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have to account for their own weakness or randomness.  Evasion is already unreliable as it is since there is no guarantee you'll even block the smallest of percentages, and there are plenty of ways around it. Therefore, I'm not interested in seeing this element of randomness go away.


I had previously suggested that Bards/Dancers just be made into one job and become Performer, and still behind this. I was told at the time that there would be some issues with the Bags/Harps, since all of a sudden they could equip each other's weapons (the male and female) but if they keep the same stats, that doesn't matter much. At least the logistics, anyway. If this for some reason can't be done, then Dancers gaining one PA (hell, even two) would be okay with me.


The reason this was suggested is because this is a skill that keeps the AI in the game. I've heard a lot of talk that people are saying "We don't need two items that give Regen in the game" but I have to disagree, and I'd argue that if changing P Bag, we need the Regen to move to an accessory. The thing about Regen is that it keeps the AI in the game. As players, we don't pay attention to this much but the reason that people are so Move-HP UP and Regen happy is because without it, the AI will go in critical and run. If they have no way to heal themselves, they'll stay in the corner while the enemy team picks them apart. It's not always easy to get Auto Regen or a healing ability on each unit, so my thought here was to add Recover to Basic Skill where the AI can only use it in critical. If this is the case, then the AI will at least be able to come back into the fight even if they waste one turn. Unlike Nurse where the AI will spam it and use it all the time, this only gives them HP when in critical and doesn't give Defending or Regen. Still, if Light Robe or P Bag needs to lose Regen, then we need to introduce something to make up for it. We do have additional Clothing spots and it can be added to an accessory as well if Light Robe or P Bag loses it.


I think it should be 15 MA and Holy should mirror. I didn't even realize this change (Dark Holy being nerfed) was passed for 1.4a and was annoyed that it had, but it's an unbrave nuke. It's on Black Magic, which is the only skillset that uses UnBrave calculation, it's slow to cast, and it is evadable to boot. I think the numbers of how many people used it in the tournament kinda justifies its need to be at least 15 MA. Black Magic, unlike Item (which we'll get to shortly) or Masamune, isn't a skillset you can just slap on any character you want. You still need to build for it.


I'm gonna but this all together and here we go.

Many people are coming up with a lot of reasons that White Magic should be nerfed. While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, I'm getting the notion that "White Magic is unequivocally better than Item." This is simply not true. Here's why:

Item Benefits:
1. Does not require Faith or Brave on either unit to work.
2. Use up to 99 times of each item.
3. All abilities are instant.
4. Can currently cure all status ailments except Charm, Death Sentence, Faith, Innocent and Slow.
5. Does not require MP to work.
6. Items (with very rare exceptions that have weird height issues like Golgorand or Inside Windmill shed) never miss.

Item Drawbacks:
1. Can only heal or effect one unit at a time.
2. Can only use right next to you or on yourself unless you have Throw Item or are a Chemist.
3. Revival option is with minimal HP and Healing Options are for set amounts.
4. Can only, at the most, cure two status ailments at once.
5. Does not have any offensive moves in the skillset.
6. Must purchase each item individually with JP.

White Magic benefits:
1. Has access to two very powerful revival abilities that no other skillset can compare to in this department.
2. Has access to Dia and Holy, two offensive skills.
3. Has access to several Cure spells for different levels, one of which is instant.
4. Has access to several other support abilities which can buff allies.
5. Status Curing is AOE.
6. Healing is AOE.
7. Can be built so healing amounts are very strong.
8. JP can be conserved by buying certain abilities.

White Magic drawbacks:
1. Requires high faith in order to use to maximum effectiveness.
2. Even with high faith, requires compat stacking and/or increasing other teammates' faith, and still may not hit target.
3. Requires charge time for every ability except Wall and Cure.
4. Cannot cure Stop, Undead, Death Sentence, Slow, Innocent, Faith, Oil or Berserk.
5. Requires MP for every ability and, in most match ups, MP Restoration.
6. Some spells cannot be used to good effectiveness on low MA units.
7. Most abilities are reflectable and offensive abilities are also evadable.
8. Most "useful" reactions, supports and movements are on other skillsets.

There may be more, to each skillset that you can think of, but these are what have been mostly mentioned.

Now, how can you say that one skillset is superior to the other? One is constant and can be given to pretty much any unit. The other must be built for to a degree, but can lead to higher payoffs and rewards. If we look at this tournament, White Magic is number one for most popular skillset, where Item is number two. So clearly, people see the value in both.

So to balance Item, even though I'm not entirely convinced that it needs any of this, I've seen a few proposals. Here are mine.

1. Give item a damaging ability instead of a "random buff" type of item. I think the AI would be pretty dumb with that, whereas it would be consistent about using, "Pain Pills" giving random damage to the enemy or something (perhaps anywhere from 10-50% of target's HP or so to keep it so that stats aren't needed), and "Slow Potion" where it inflicts "Slow" or "Stop" on any unit that's hasted. (This would encourage teams to not auto use Haste as a side note.)

2. When adding Charm to an item, remove it from Esuna. It makes sense for Monks to have it with Stigma Magic to instantly cure themselves, but a White Magic user must actually charge up and do it, which makes less sense since they're proactively acting on the fact that they're charmed.

3. Lower the JP costs of some/all items making them easier to get.

Still, I can agree with Holy moving to Black Magic. It's a nuke spell and makes really strong support units. So I'm okay with it moving to Black Magic.

However, I'm not okay with Raise 2 receiving such a small nerf. Most people look at this and say, "It's 1%. That's no big deal." However, three reasons I have against this are:

1. When turning to a 99% raise, units will look at themselves as injured. Therefore, "reacting" to the injury could happen. For example, units with Nurse or Iron Will will now possibly use these abilities instead of going on the offensive. This gives less predictability when making teams and while that can be looked at as good, I'm not convinced because those who buy Raise 2 are doing so with the express purpose of restoring a unit to full. Also, as a side note, it is possible that on low HP units, that "1%" could be the difference between a spell gun (or something) one shotting them and not one shotting them. Rare, but can happen.

2. Raise 2 is fairly inaccurate. Many people go with Raise 1 simply due to the fact that they can run a 40 faith unit and not worry about Raise 1 missing, or have much better odds at the very least.

3. Cursed Ring units now have a much bigger reaction known as HP Restore to rely upon.

Because of these three reasons, I have 10 suggestions that I would rather see happen than Raise 2 lose 1% because of a singular accessory.

1. Make Raise 2 evadable (wouldn't matter for dead units presumably since they shouldn't be able to evade.) Then, give Cursed Ring a small amount of M-Ev.
2. Add Initial: Reflect to Cursed Ring (Fire weakness and it simply being initially reflectable instead of "always" reflect would still make Consecration and Seal Evil worth carrying, while giving Reflect Ring its purpose still.)
3. Cursed Ring has received two debuffs since 1.38 where it ran rampant. So simply give Cursed Ring its 100% revival back, or increase it at least to 75%.
4. With Speed Stacking presumably getting nerfed, give Cursed Ring +2 Speed and turn Sprint Shoes into something else. (Now you have Hyper Wrist where you're always poisoned or Cursed Ring where you're always Undead.)
5. Take away Cursed Ring's "Always: Undead" and instead, simply make it Immune: Crystal. Now the ally won't be undead, but he won't come back to life until revived by an ally. (Note that by making it Immune: Crystal, the unit would just stay dead until revived. I proposed a similar accessory before and I was told it was unbalanced to Arena. I'm still unsure why since if the unit just stays dead, it doesn't matter if he/she never crystallizes.)
6. Take away Cursed Ring's Fire weakness.
7. Give Cursed Ring Initial: Innocent.
8. Give Cursed Ring Always: Regen (This relates to what I said earlier with nixing Light Robe or P-Bag.
9. Increase the JP/MP cost of Raise, Raise 2 and Esuna (I know that I'm making arguments for Cursed Ring, but I'm going to explain this later in the post.)
10. I think we can tie Reactions to an item, right? Give it a reaction where when the ability Raise 2 misses, it then targets that unit with Heretic.

Now, the reason I had talked about increasing the JP/MP cost of all three of these abilities is that because when I look at LOH, it uses a similar formula to Raise, but costs a whopping 250 JP but has the same result. I admit I missed comparing these two, so I think Raise should at least be raised to 200, and I wouldn't mind seeing Esuna become 250 or 300 where Raise 2 becomes 400. These abilities are easy to grab. The infamous Move-MP, Short Charge, Raise 2/Esuna combo is already limiting for most jobs, so it would just limit the other abilities or reactions these jobs could carry even more. This in turn would buff Cursed Ring on that part alone.

Consecration can certainly gain accuracy and a JP cost reduction. I don't like 100%, but wouldn't mind some proposals of increasing it.

Finally, Cure 4 just seems a little too strong to me. It's a very short heal, unreflectable and pretty potent. I'm not as adamant about that as I am about other things, but would like to see it change a bit.

There's probably more, but I'm gonna leave it at that for now.


Again, I'd rather see a weapon, accessory, or something that simply grants Immune: Crystal than this. It doesn't need to grant Reraise, but simply make it so that either Stars appear above the dead unit's head (like in Vanilla) or when the countdown hits zero, it simply skips that unit's turn and resets the counter. This is a neat idea but with so many other Support abilities, I just feel an equippable item would be better.


Barren, I'm aware that you don't like the idea of this passing through walls, but it sounds like you're mostly opposed to it because of the logistics of the idea and not the ability itself. If that is right, can we compromise? Could we have it go back to the way it was, but simply name it something else like "Telekinesis" or "PsyBlade" or something? This way, it can perhaps use a different animation or something, but the ability would be reverted and I think it would make most parties happy. Please let me know if that suggestion would suit you.


Berserk? Sure. Slow? No. Haste can cure Slow and I'm even reluctant about an item being able to do that (but more okay with it than Stigma Magic). However, since Stigma Magic technically lose Silence and they obviously can't cure Berserk on themselves, I'm okay with Stigma Magic picking it up.


Agreed with Gaignun, here. I think that this is useful and not easily grabbed for most skillsets that need or want it. Therefore, I think it should remain at 400 JP.


I don't think it should change either. It's one of those options that is there for specific builds.


I suggested removing Haste 2/Slow 2 initially simply because lots of people had issues with it and just having them Haste/Slow with combined properties. However, why don't we just reverse the accuracies? Make the Haste2/Slow 2 cover more ground but less accurate and Haste/Slow cover less ground with slightly more accuracy, but be reflectable and evadable (obviously Haste wouldn't be evadable, but still reflectable.)


I'd want to know if the AI would "know" that they could do this. Attacking from the back is already more solid due to evasion being less effective in the back so just a bit curious about this.


Gaignun, would you rather this be Add: Dead perhaps at a 20% proc?


My vote is to reduce proc rate. Never noticed it was 100% until it was pointed out to me. (And that's my bad.)


I had, and still hold to, my proposals of three flat damage spells. I had said Balance, Life Drain and Demi initially, but was convinced to go with Ultima (since the Ultima Power cannot be boosted with moves like Pilgrimage and is non elemental) in place of Life Drain. These are not OP at all and I could even see them being reverted back to one handed. The weapon I have the most grudge with is Stone Gun and it's because I still find it pretty weak.


Still gotta say no, not in favor of this. I think one of the drawbacks of having 2S is to be forced to get close to your enemy and while I understand its WP is extremely weak, this would be used just for utility purposes which in my opinion, still makes it kinda meh.


I'm still in support of this. It could be similar to how it is applied in JOT5 or Chakra where it's 1/8 and then half of that for MP. This makes it so that it still kinda interferes with a Move-MP UP unit (if they're casting each turn, even Move-MP up won't be enough to combat the slow degeneration of Poison) while not providing quite enough to sustain MP without some other method. This is where it should be in my opinion...as a nuisance/light benefit but not the complete answer.


While I don't mind Scholars picking up Helmets and losing Hats (or even keeping hats as an option, doesn't bother me either way), I don't like Time Mages losing shields, especially since I like the swap Time Mage/Summoner HP. Having a ten speed, yet most frail unit in Arena doesn't sit right with me, and many of their innate abilities, particularly Haste and Sinkhole, tend to work best when moving last. Even nine speed can sometimes be a hindrance, though not nearly as often. I don't think a Scholar needs a Shield, especially if picking up Regen/Poison. I'd be more in favor of a further HP buff, perhaps moving up to where Thieves are, and picking up the choice of Helmets or Hats.


Edit: I had written "20" instead of "10" by mistake above.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 06, 2016, 11:36:42 am
Quote from: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 04:35:10 pm
I give up.

Still requesting an accurate team building spreadsheet without netherseer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 am
Glad to hear your input, silentkaster.

Merging Dancerbards: I don't mind merging the two jobs, nor allowing them to equip each other's weapons.  However, unless the algorithm which determines the stats of each sex has been unraveled, I don't believe we will be able to maintain 12 PA on female dancerbards, 8 PA on male dancerbards, etc.

Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?

Shuriken: If it isn't any trouble, why don't we have the skill throw a series of 4 shurikens?  This way we keep the damage of 1.39 Shuriken, but prevent targeting through walls.

Haste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.

Bow Gun: Yeah, 20% Add: Dead is fine.  25% Add: Dead is even better.

10 SP Time Mages: 10 SP allows a Time Mage to cast 2 CT spells before 8 SP units get their first turn.  This is great for applying Haste before the 8 SP units disperse from their starting positions.  As for Sinkhole, it isn't much better on 9 SP Time Mages either.  Sinkhole works truly best on 8 SP units against other 8 SP units.

Scholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.

Item and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.

New skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.

Cursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 07, 2016, 06:46:19 am
If the shuriken skill won't phase through walls but will be renaming it with a plural I am fine with.

If it has to phase through walls then a name change would be necessary. Again I know I am adamant about shuriken but my point still stands.

Yes I understand that not everyone likes the current shuriken change because the damage is too low, but I think either giving it speed * 10, removing MP cost, or if it really has to go back to multi hit then it has to be renamed something else
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 09:12:19 am
Could we change the formula from SP*X to something else, like (X*SP+Y) or (X*PA+Y)?  This is a cool formula because the Y is not reduced by Defense UP nor Protect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 07, 2016, 12:08:20 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 09:12:19 am
Could we change the formula from SP*X to something else, like (X*SP+Y) or (X*PA+Y)?  This is a cool formula because the Y is not reduced by Defense UP nor Protect.


I suppose if it can work i'm cool with that too
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
Thanks Gaignun for responding. I only have responses on a few things.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 am

Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?


Since this does nothing except regain HP for a critical unit, it is a combination of a handicapped version of HP Restore and Nurse, but both working in tandem make a viable ability. One of the disadvantages of Nurse is that the AI will use it even on minor injuries (even when Move-HP up or existing Regen will put them back to full in some cases) or as set up even when more prioritized actions could be done. With HP Restore, the unit regains all its HP, but it doesn't trigger every time a unit goes into critical so it is a bit of a gamble. (Because of this, a minor point of mine is to reduce HP Restore's JP cost in the next major release but it's a very minor point so will only mention it briefly here for now.) This skill gives the AI an option where if in critical, it can restore its own HP some, but it must waste a turn in order to do so, (unlike HP Restore) and it won't be spammed.

I figured Basic Skill since Basic Skill has the most "basic" abilities and this ability could be, but may not be, useful depending on RSM, if you have Regen already, etc.

I would argue against putting it on other skillsets because most skillsets either have a better or different way of healing, or are very offensive. With Basic Skill's "mixed" nature, skillsets like Snipe or Black Magic aren't great for this skill.

Finally, I don't think the slippery slope context applies here. We don't need a self healing ability on every skillset simply because more offensive skillsets (which are those without such supports) will need to be gambled with or take a JP hit in order to be viable and consistent. Part of building your team if you want it to be successful is predicting the AI. And this ability being on Basic Skill doesn't give much extra offense power to Squires or Basic Skill users in general.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 amHaste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.


I'd rather be consistent here, especially if closing the gap on JP.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 amScholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.


Again, not a fan of Scholars picking up shields taking them away from TM especially if TM becomes very frail. With the recent HP buff, this is why I think hats could go here instead of shields. If they pick up Regen and Poison, I vote that Mad Science moves elsewhere as well.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 amItem and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.


They really don't. Cure on a Priest's base MA only restores, even with a faith boost, 77 HP. Yes, it's AOE but 77 HP is often counter productive and requires two turns on the AI's part if they live that long. X-Potion is instant but not AOE and requires no faith or stacking. PD is instant and 100% (the only revival ability of its kind in the entire game) but revives with potentially the lowest HP. Raise 2 will miss a significant portion of the time and requires 5 CT which many units can intercept (and the AI puts a high priority on mid-charging that spell in most cases.) However, the potential reward is obviously much greater than PD.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 amNew skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.


If we buff PD, I think we definitely need to merge poison and sap. One of PD's weaknesses is the poison problem. The damage skills are there to be unevadable, single target damaging/debuffing abilities. They have more effective ways depending on equipment and secondaries, and I'm not necessarily totally for putting abilities like this in the game, but it's worth a look if people are truly believing Item needs an offensive ability.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 amCursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.


The thing about Raise 2 is that "dead" status shouldn't be able to evade. This is the only use for Raise 2 outside of a killing undead tool.

Cursed Ring has become a topic of debate in that it is now "too" nerfed. We don't see it much anymore and it is hard to make a mage unit with them because high faith means you're more susceptible to Raise 2. I argued that this was just a fact of Raise 2 and a side effect of using one of the most unique items in the game, but this is the only reason (at least to my understanding) that 99% was suggested for Raise 2 (for undead units.) I argued why this would affect the ability itself in my previous post. Since it doubles as powerful Revival and an undead killing tool, this made it "too" good in some peoples' eyes and was overshadowing other undead tools as well as "double dipping."

That is why I made so many other suggestions.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 07, 2016, 02:10:38 pm
Just a quick interjection at Phoenix Down... Can we code it to remove both dead and poison?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 03:55:45 pm
Quote from: gatebuster202 on September 07, 2016, 02:10:38 pm
Just a quick interjection at Phoenix Down... Can we code it to remove both dead and poison?


Not sure, but I'd rather it not do that (unless we make Poison/Sap the same status in which case I'm still reluctant, but more tolerable of the idea.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 07, 2016, 04:18:09 pm
In all honesty I really don't think that it Should remove poison. As that removes the danger of Poison. Poison is good for stripping health. But it's better at holding down units as they are revived by PD an Wish. See Round 1 Elmdore. His team finagled the comeback by holding down the time Mage on map 2. And they did it with poison. Otherwise the tm was a threat, but never recovered due to the inability to cast.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 07, 2016, 09:28:24 pm
Magic Ring, 108 Gems, Light Robe, P Bag, and an instant cast Regen on white magic, these are all the answers a time/white mage has against poison. You played 139 gatebuster so you should've been aware of how powerful poison was against units that couldn't heal themselves instantly. I didn't see your team or match, but if you did actually make a time mage that didn't have one of the aforementioned solutions to poison and only have phoenix down be your only other form of revival then that's just a match up issue with your team and unit, not a balance issue.

Phoenix down is fine just reviving I would like it be buffed to at most 10% healing though. It wouldn't counter poison, but at least you'd survive wiznibus.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 08, 2016, 11:20:07 am
Some brief responses.

Quote from: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
Since [Recover] does nothing except regain HP for a critical unit, it is a combination of a handicapped version of HP Restore and Nurse, but both working in tandem make a viable ability. One of the disadvantages of Nurse is that the AI will use it even on minor injuries (even when Move-HP up or existing Regen will put them back to full in some cases) or as set up even when more prioritized actions could be done.  This skill gives the AI an option where if in critical, it can restore its own HP some, but it must waste a turn in order to do so, (unlike HP Restore) and it won't be spammed.


I acknowledge the point against Nurse.

Could we at least combine this skill with Yell?  This would feel satisfactory in two ways: (1) It repurposes Yell, which is currently a turn sink. (Yell spends 100 CT to provide a single (sub 12 SP) unit with 96 CT over the following 48 clock ticks. This yields no net positive benefit unless it incidentally cures Slow.) (2) It helps differentiate the skill from Nurse.

Next, regarding Haste/Slow 2...

Quote from: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
I'd rather be consistent here, especially if closing the gap on JP.


I would hate to nerf Haste 2 out of the meta purely because it and Slow 2 have similar names.  I think we have achieved a nice balance of the relative costs and benefits of Haste and Haste 2.  The even distribution of Haste and Haste 2 in the present tournament (8 units know Haste, 10 units know Haste 2) is evidence of this.

Finally...

Quote from: silentkaster on September 07, 2016, 12:42:29 pm
[White Magic spells] really don't [beat items hands down]. Cure on a Priest's base MA only restores, even with a faith boost, 77 HP. Yes, it's AOE but 77 HP is often counter productive and requires two turns on the AI's part if they live that long.


We need to consider optimized cases.  My 21 MA Bard in Season 5 heals himself for over 160 HP with Cure 1.  If Cure 1 heals for 77 HP, I wouldn't have bothered learning it.  This optimization comes at a cost.  In the case of my Bard, this cost was high Faith and an accessory slot to cover this high Faith.  Of course, it would have been cheaper to drop my Bard to 40 Faith and use X-Potion instead.  I decided that the cost of a more potent Cure was nevertheless worth it. 

It's like Chirijiraden: It hits for only 90 damage at 10 MA, but it would be foolish to balance it on the supposition that it is equal in strength to Cover Fire because you'll never see anyone with less than 15 MA using Chirijiraden.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 08, 2016, 01:06:48 pm
As for your point about Haste, I'm fine with that. You made a good argument. I'm not a fan of Yell, either so I would be fine with it being combined somehow, though I'm honestly not sure how to do that as I'm not that smart :P

Quote from: Gaignun on September 08, 2016, 11:20:07 am

We need to consider optimized cases.  My 21 MA Bard in Season 5 heals himself for over 160 HP with Cure 1.  If Cure 1 heals for 77 HP, I wouldn't have bothered learning it.  This optimization comes at a cost.  In the case of my Bard, this cost was high Faith and an accessory slot to cover this high Faith.  Of course, it would have been cheaper to drop my Bard to 40 Faith and use X-Potion instead.  I decided that the cost of a more potent Cure was nevertheless worth it. 

It's like Chirijiraden: It hits for only 90 damage at 10 MA, but it would be foolish to balance it on the supposition that it is equal in strength to Cover Fire because you'll never see anyone with less than 15 MA using Chirijiraden.


Can you expand on this? I might be missing what you're trying to say. Of course you wouldn't have bothered learning that with lowish MA but because you wanted that unit to be stronger, you went with that. But how does this argument propose that the cost of running a high faith team is less than the benefit provided by Cure and Raise 2?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 11, 2016, 02:27:22 am
It's pretty tough for me to make definitive statements about that cost/benefit analysis, but I can scrap together a few statements about how much more potent I think White Magic is.

(1) Raise 2 is the most potent way of recovering from a defensive position.  You spend one turn reviving a fallen unit.  If your opponent then spends more than one turn knocking out that revived unit, you run a turn surplus which can be put toward offense or further defense. 

Phoenix Down cannot do this.  Not only will the revived unit require a second turn to be healed, but this unit will be killed in one hit before being healed, and possibly even after if your opponent has heavy hitters. At best you trade a turn with your opponent.  At worst the revived unit gets healed and still dies, dies in an AoE attack which incidentally harms/knocks out other teammates, or dies on its own turn to Poison.  In all cases you run turn-deficits.

Of course the unique downside of Raise 2 is its long CT.

(2) A Cure spell can heal multiple targets.  Heal two targets with a 130 HP Cure and you already run a one-turn surplus over X-Potion.  In addition, Cure, unlike X-Potion, can be used to manage AoE damage.

So, to summarize, optimized White Magic provides:

For the cost of:


I suppose the only way to prove if the benefits outweigh the costs is by running a big analysis on Item and White Magic teams to see which team wins more on average.  Luckily, we are blessed with selfless hosts and many teams with a good mix of Item and White Magic this season.  How about we observe how these teams do?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 11, 2016, 10:42:53 am
IN the spirit of investigation @Both Silentkaster and Gaignun, I'd like to do a detailed breakdown of Item vs White Magic. If you both provide a pair of teams or even three teams, that focus on different aspects of WM, Item or Both, I will stream each of your teams (All Six) against the Top 8 teams from Season 5, using Season 5 Maps.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 18, 2016, 11:42:41 pm
So, I offer, my take on what Arena Shields, Headgear and Armor can be. I did not touch Headbands.

Hats         
Black Hood           110   30   None
Flash Hat           70   40   Half: Earth, Wind, Water
Golden Hairpin   70   40   Half: Dark, Holy
Green Beret           85   20   Move +1, Jump +1
Holy Miter           75   0   MA +2
Twist Headband   75   0   PA +2
Thief Hat           65   0   Speed +1
Triangle Hat           75   10   Boost: Earth, Wind, Water

So the Hats changed a bit. A slight change on HP or we now Halve a new set of elements. This will be expanded upon with Robes, but because all mages have access to both, Hats and Robes they are set up to complement each other. Triangle Hat benefits both mages and ninja's, giving two of their tons a opportunity to receive a boost. Golden Hairpin has changed due to the much heavier prevalence of Holy and Dark in abilities and weapons. This doesn't mean we see Strengthening Dark and Holy go, but instead we redirect it to a Robe.

Clothes         
Brigandine           130   10   None
Black Costume   90   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest           90   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit           90   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           90   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Power Sleeve   85   0   PA +2
Wizard Outfit   85   0   MA +2
Secret Clothes   70   0   Speed +1

Absorb Gear. That's the change. The robes have lost all their absorb properties, and we have rerouted the clothing. Strengthening earth is gone, and everything absorbs as a pair. No pair will nullify two tons. Ice, Lightning, Fire, Holy are all separated. Only thing left is Dark and Fire being potent together. Absorb gear took a small HP drop, but the MA/PA Stat gear compensated up a extra 5 Hp for the 5 they lost on the Hats.
         
Robes         
Silk Robe           90   50   None
Robe of Lords   70   120   None
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe           65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe           65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark
Wizard Robe   60   40   MA +2
Priest Cassock   80   40   MA+1, PA +1
Light Robe           75   50   Always: Regen Immune: Poison

Robes. Scrapped Chameleon Robe. Exchanged the Cultist Robe. Linen Robe became the Priest Cassock. Silk Robe and Robe of Lords have a been statistically balanced to Clothes. White Robe is slightly stronger HP/MP wise then they Half Hats. Boosting Robes stand to balance with Hats. You can not Boost everything without a Weapon or 108 Gems. You can't Half everything with these options either. What you can do is both Boost and Half Holy and Dark. Making the elements formidable, but at the cost of low HP, Moderate MP and little elemental and Status Coverage.

Helmets         
Grand Helmet   160   0   None
Cross Helmet   120   50   Immune: Sap
Barbuta           115   15   PA+1
Circlet           115   15   MA+1
Mythril Helmet   110   15   Move +1, Jump +1
Genji Helmet   100   0   Immune: Slow, Innocent
Crystal Helmet   110   0   Boost: Holy, Earth, Fire
Diamond Helmet   110   0   Immune: DA, Initial Reraise
Platina Helmet   110   0   Immune: Poison, Oil, Stop
Gold Helmet           110   0   Immune: Darkness, Frog, Sleep
         
Armor         
Maximillian           160   0   None
Genji Armor           85   0   Speed +1
Carabini Mail   120   10   PA +1
Platina Armor   120   10   MA +1
Reflect Mail           150   0   Initial: Reflect Immune:Faith
Diamond Armor   110   0   Immune: Dead, DS, Petrify, Slow
Gold Armor           110   0   Immune: Berserk, Don't Move, Oil
Crystal Armor   110   0   Immune: Charm, Slow, Undead
         
Shields   P-Ev   M-Ev   Attibutes
Escutcheon II   25   25   None
Aegis Shield           5   25   Immune: Innocent MA+1
Genji Shield           25   5   Immune: Darkness PA +1
Swift Plate           5   5   Speed +1 Immune; Haste, Slow, Stop
Flame Shield   15   10   Absorb: Fire
Gold Shield           15   10   Absorb: Lightning
Ice Shield           10   15   Absorb: Ice
Dewdrop Shield   10   15   Absorb: Water
Diamond Shield   20   5   Absorb: Dark
Platina Shield   20   5   Absorb: Holy
Round Shield   5   20   Absorb: Earth
Wyvern Shield   5   20   Absorb: Wind
Crystal Shield   25   0   Initial: Reflect
Kaiser Plate           15   15   Strengthen: Ice, Dark, Wind
Gaian Shield   10   10   Immune: Oil, MA/PA +1
Severed Head   10   10   Always: Berserk, Initial: Haste
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2016, 08:59:08 am
In general I am in favour with shuffling around the elemental properties.  I can take or leave MP bonuses on armor.  (In my opinion, low mana pools ought to be a weakness among heavy armor classes; that's why they have robes.) However, I am noticing a trend among the HP and MP changes.  Let me elaborate:

Among the +XA gear:

Among absorption/strengthening gear:

So, in summary, elemental gear gets nerfed and +XA gear gets buffed?  Are elemental teams currently too strong in the meta?

I am not sure how I feel about the removal of Earth Clothes and Chameleon Robe.  Removing Chameleon Robe will effectively remove Excalibur Grand Cross Paladins from the meta and leave Excalibur stranded.  Removing Earth Clothes will definitely reduce the prevalence of Earth absorb teams.  I never saw a problem with either :/

Next, concerning robes, I notice that a higher premium is being placed on the MP bonuses.

+2 MA gear (Wizard Outfit and Wizard Robe)
1.40: +40 MP costs 15 HP
Proposal: +40 MP costs 25 HP

+1 XA gear (Heavy armor and Priest Cassock)
Proposal: +30 MP costs 40 HP  (The addition of 1 PA/MA is largely inconsequential to all but Geomancy)

+1 MA robes (Linen Robe changing to Priest Cassock)
Proposal: -15 HP (Straight nerf to all but Geomancy)

+0 XA gear (Brigandine and Silk Robe)
1.40: +30 MP costs 15 HP
Proposal: +40 MP costs 40 HP

MP is one of those stats you don't care how much you have as long as you have enough.  On the other hand, HP is a stat that can never be high enough.  Consequently, HP is more valuable than MP.

There was a time several years ago when we thought otherwise, and most robes had far less HP.  Robes back then sucked.  Only recently (patch 1.37? 1.38?) did we give these robes more HP and bring them out of obscurity.   By slashing robes' HP and leaving the likes of Brigandine and Black Hood unchanged, I fear we'll slip back into those dark days.

Last, I like the shield changes, but I wonder if giving Swift Plate both Slow and Stop resistance is a bit overkill.  I personally am fine with just Slow resistance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 20, 2016, 12:02:44 pm
At Gaignun, Lets start with the easy one, Swift Plate. It gained an Inability to be hasted in exchange it can't be stopped. It still provides speed.

MP does matter how much you have now, more then the last few patches due to a Balanced version of MP switch. Some People can and will use that excess MP as a second MP Pool, two new weapons hit the MP Pool exclusively. (Mage Masher with Holy Element and Ethereal Spear.)

Elemental Gear saw a slight reduction in HP to compensate for the Offensive Nature of AoE Healing from casters. Admittedly, this would be better if the "Basic Summons" no longer smart targeted. (Shiva, Ramuh, Ifrit.) To allow better synergy. But I am not suggesting that as it isn't thought through.

Stat Boosting Armor sees a bit of a MP boost. This is to allow a few more casting options. You can squeeze two more LoH out of a Paladin or more -tons... It opens up builds. without handing them a second health pool or forcing them to use the MP dedicated Helmet.

Flash Hat and GH Now provide = Amounts of MP Current Flash Hat is 80/20, and New Flash Hat is 70/40. IF you don't want to Halve incoming Dark/Holy but need the MP, grab the Flash Hat. Halving Gear is used for a Defensive Purpose, so you take a small hit to your mostly Offensive Resource. (And they improve your Defense so if someone uses it as a Second HP Pool, they get less milage from both the "extra health" and the extra elemental protection.

I think I covered everything
The only problem we might see is Aqua Suit and Black Costume... Those four elements show up on Wizard's skillset, and would be hard to plan around a team using two of each. (You would still have Bolts.) Otherwise, it should be difficult for a unit to completely nullify every elemental or reduce their elemental damage a significant amount from any class. (And they most certainly won't be doing it with much or any status protection.) (This paragraph can be ignored or omitted, it's strictly musing)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 22, 2016, 06:28:09 pm
I noticed I failed to talk about chameleon robes and earth clothes. I will correct that here.

Chameleon robe does not "have" to go. However it would use up a spare slot of equipment. What it offered, Dead/DS protection and Holy absorption was geared to Armored users and looks like clothes. (It's the one element clothes didn't absorb.) Earth clothes lost strengthening and I shuffled the elemental absorbs so as to not create a simple way to block -tons. (Every other elemental skill set has easy access to other elements or skillsets that synergize with their first skill set.) So holy absorption went, with all the others to clothes. Did this end GC Paladins? Not nessecarily. It does mean that another holy absorb option must be considered. Or Null:Holy at least. Neither Item is super attractive to a paladin, currently. (Talk of adding MonkeyGrip would allow Platina Shield with Excaliber.)

Earth Clothes lose Strengthen, but Triangle hat now strengthens water, wind and earth. This opens a earth strengthen back up to scholar.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 22, 2016, 07:38:15 pm
You had asked for my thoughts and here they are.

Quote from: gatebuster202 on September 18, 2016, 11:42:41 pm
So, I offer, my take on what Arena Shields, Headgear and Armor can be. I did not touch Headbands.

Hats         
Black Hood           110   30   None
Flash Hat           70   40   Half: Earth, Wind, Water
Golden Hairpin   70   40   Half: Dark, Holy
Green Beret           85   20   Move +1, Jump +1
Holy Miter           75   0   MA +2
Twist Headband   75   0   PA +2
Thief Hat           65   0   Speed +1
Triangle Hat           75   10   Boost: Earth, Wind, Water

So the Hats changed a bit. A slight change on HP or we now Halve a new set of elements. This will be expanded upon with Robes, but because all mages have access to both, Hats and Robes they are set up to complement each other. Triangle Hat benefits both mages and ninja's, giving two of their tons a opportunity to receive a boost. Golden Hairpin has changed due to the much heavier prevalence of Holy and Dark in abilities and weapons. This doesn't mean we see Strengthening Dark and Holy go, but instead we redirect it to a Robe.


I'd rather leave Golden Hairpin as is and if we feel we need a Half: Dark and Half: Holy item, then add something like the Feather Cap or Leather Hat and have one of those items do that. I like the Triangle Hat as is now, so don't see a need for changing that. Again, if we need a piece of clothing needs to boost these elements, a new item can be introduced. No comment on HP/MP changes.

Quote from: gatebuster202 on September 18, 2016, 11:42:41 pm
Clothes         
Brigandine           130   10   None
Black Costume   90   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest           90   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit           90   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           90   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Power Sleeve   85   0   PA +2
Wizard Outfit   85   0   MA +2
Secret Clothes   70   0   Speed +1

Absorb Gear. That's the change. The robes have lost all their absorb properties, and we have rerouted the clothing. Strengthening earth is gone, and everything absorbs as a pair. No pair will nullify two tons. Ice, Lightning, Fire, Holy are all separated. Only thing left is Dark and Fire being potent together. Absorb gear took a small HP drop, but the MA/PA Stat gear compensated up a extra 5 Hp for the 5 they lost on the Hats.
         
Robes         
Silk Robe           90   50   None
Robe of Lords   70   120   None
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe           65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe           65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark
Wizard Robe   60   40   MA +2
Priest Cassock   80   40   MA+1, PA +1
Light Robe           75   50   Always: Regen Immune: Poison

Robes. Scrapped Chameleon Robe. Exchanged the Cultist Robe. Linen Robe became the Priest Cassock. Silk Robe and Robe of Lords have a been statistically balanced to Clothes. White Robe is slightly stronger HP/MP wise then they Half Hats. Boosting Robes stand to balance with Hats. You can not Boost everything without a Weapon or 108 Gems. You can't Half everything with these options either. What you can do is both Boost and Half Holy and Dark. Making the elements formidable, but at the cost of low HP, Moderate MP and little elemental and Status Coverage.


I'm not a fan of Silk Robe as proposed. It's not a piece of equipment we see too often, but it does get some use sometimes, particularly from tanky magic users or Paladins. I believe Robe of Lords should get Sap or Berserk protection, (Berserk definitely if Defense Ring gets changed). For the same reason Gaignun mentioned, I don't believe Chameleon Robe should change. Excalibur is a niche weapon that can only be used naturally by Paladins and without a Robe to absorb, that limits it even further. Unless we'd plan on making Excalibur one handed (which is unlikely) then that weapon would become pretty obsolete (and it's not too popular even now.) The Priest Cassock idea sounds more like a Clothing item to me anyway, and there are clothing slots available (Clothes, Leather Vest, Mythril Vest, Adaman Vest, etc.)

Quote from: gatebuster202 on September 18, 2016, 11:42:41 pm

Helmets         
Grand Helmet   160   0   None
Cross Helmet   120   50   Immune: Sap
Barbuta           115   15   PA+1
Circlet           115   15   MA+1
Mythril Helmet   110   15   Move +1, Jump +1
Genji Helmet   100   0   Immune: Slow, Innocent
Crystal Helmet   110   0   Boost: Holy, Earth, Fire
Diamond Helmet   110   0   Immune: DA, Initial Reraise
Platina Helmet   110   0   Immune: Poison, Oil, Stop
Gold Helmet           110   0   Immune: Darkness, Frog, Sleep
         
Armor         
Maximillian           160   0   None
Genji Armor           85   0   Speed +1
Carabini Mail   120   10   PA +1
Platina Armor   120   10   MA +1
Reflect Mail           150   0   Initial: Reflect Immune:Faith
Diamond Armor   110   0   Immune: Dead, DS, Petrify, Slow
Gold Armor           110   0   Immune: Berserk, Don't Move, Oil
Crystal Armor   110   0   Immune: Charm, Slow, Undead
         
Shields   P-Ev   M-Ev   Attibutes
Escutcheon II   25   25   None
Aegis Shield           5   25   Immune: Innocent MA+1
Genji Shield           25   5   Immune: Darkness PA +1
Swift Plate           5   5   Speed +1 Immune; Haste, Slow, Stop
Flame Shield   15   10   Absorb: Fire
Gold Shield           15   10   Absorb: Lightning
Ice Shield           10   15   Absorb: Ice
Dewdrop Shield   10   15   Absorb: Water
Diamond Shield   20   5   Absorb: Dark
Platina Shield   20   5   Absorb: Holy
Round Shield   5   20   Absorb: Earth
Wyvern Shield   5   20   Absorb: Wind
Crystal Shield   25   0   Initial: Reflect
Kaiser Plate           15   15   Strengthen: Ice, Dark, Wind
Gaian Shield   10   10   Immune: Oil, MA/PA +1
Severed Head   10   10   Always: Berserk, Initial: Haste


Why so many items that remove slow? There would be a shield, two pieces of body armor and a helmet that negate slow. Not to mention accessories and the fact that I believe there is an idea for Platinum Sword to cancel Slow. If anything, I'd probably be interested in seeing current Genji Armor and Reflect Mail combine. A low HP Armor that grants Initial: Reflect and +1 speed. Genji Shield looks like it would be wayyyy strengthened and not sure I like that. Also, don't mind new shield ideas but would rather keep names that were in Vanilla if possible. Just something that gives familiarity to new players even if the properties changed. Also, not a fan of Gaian shield. I think Immunity to Oil is enough. (I could see possibly raising its evade or giving it something like Null: X but not PA and MA + 1)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 05:31:48 am
@ gatebuster

Swift Plate
I was under the impression that Swift Plate is gaining Immune: Haste to penalize SP stacking, and Immune: Slow so that Slow is not incurable.

Robes & MP Switch
What about the robe wearers who don't use MP Switch?   I don't believe that MP Switch is so potent that we need to weaken an entire class of armor to accommodate it. The cost of using MP Switch is the opportunity cost of all other reaction abilities, as well as the real probability of losing turns restoring lost MP, which is far less efficient than restoring lost HP.

Elemental gear & self-absorption
I am of the opinion that element-themed teams trade offensive healing for (1) restricted equipment options, (2) inaccessibility of evasion gear (e.g., you can't absorb friendly Kotetsu well if your M-Ev is through the roof), and (3) vulnerability to elemental defense (e.g., White Robe, clothes, hats, and accessories).

There was a time when Brigandine's HP was only around 10 higher than the absorption clothes. At that time, many players chose the absorption clothes over Brigandine even if they didn't run self-absorption strategies because the security against possible enemy elemental damage was worth the cost of 10 HP. (E.g., In season 2 circa Summer 2013, 37 units equipped one of the 100 HP absorption clothes; meanwhile, only 8 equipped Brigandine).

To make Brigandine more attractive, it received a 20 HP buff.  This buff had the intended effect: In season 5, only 18 units equip one of the 100 HP absorption clothes, whereas 12 equip Brigandine.  The ratio of absorption clothes to Brigandine has swung from 4.6:1 in season 2 to 1.5:1 in season 5.  I would say that this is a nice balance.

Excalibur Grand Cross & Monkey Grip
Monkey Grip carries the opportunity cost of losing Attack UP. In this case, Excalibur can no longer compete with Phoenix Blade or Ice Brand paired with Attack UP.  A Holy absorption accessory would be viable were Holy absorption not on Magic Ring, which is a lackluster choice for PA-based units.

@ silentkaster

You're right about Slow immunity.  I didn't notice that Genji Helm and Diamond Armor gained Slow immunity!

Concerning Genji Shield, the buff is to put it on par with a weakened form of Aegis Shield. I think these two shields could lose even more PEv/MEv, though (e.g., down to 20/0 and 0/20 or somewhere in between).

Ditto on Gaian Shield looking a little strong.  Unless we are ready to welcome 170 damage Carve Models, I suggest we reconsider its PA/MA +1.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 23, 2016, 10:44:48 am
Quote from: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 05:31:48 am

@ silentkaster

Concerning Genji Shield, the buff is to put it on par with a weakened form of Aegis Shield. I think these two shields could lose even more PEv/MEv, though (e.g., down to 20/0 and 0/20 or somewhere in between).


Not so much the evasion percentage, as much as the blind protection. With this, you'll easily get to 15 PA Grand Crosses (20 with Attack Up) and in the case of, say, Phoenix Blade, 16 PA Grand Crosses with Immunity to Don't Act, Don't Move and Initial Reraise! Sure, we could change a bunch of weapons to make this less palpable, but I just feel Null: Blind could be left as Null: Dead or simply add Null: Petrify or something. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 11:41:26 am
That's a good point.  I wanted Blind immuniy on a shield so Geomancers and Squires can use GC without depending on Blind immunity from an accessory, but it's true that many GC builds will get a +1 PA buff and some among them will reach 15 PA.  Would the shield be better if it (1) didn't have +1 PA, or (2) didn't have Blind immunity?

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 23, 2016, 11:53:34 am
Well, with the proposed change of Immune: Innocent going to Aegis Shield, I wouldn't mind the current Secular Shield becoming an Immune: Blind shield so that you now have the choice. It gives players a lot of choices. Do they want to absorb the element, add PA, Strengthen the element or get Blind Immunity with their shield slot? It could just be renamed the Bronze Shield if needing a name.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 23, 2016, 03:51:04 pm
I can get behind that.  Something like

Bronze Shield: 15 PEv, 15 MEv, Immune: Blind

PEv is boosted by 5 to put the shield on par with the other options.  We can discuss the exact Ev values later.  Apart from Grand Cross, the shield can also be used to counter Blind Rage, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 01, 2016, 12:58:51 am
Apologies for the double post.

How might we obtain consensus on changes for the next patch?  There are currently a ton of suggestions in the suggestions list as of 25 September. Many of these suggestions are incompatible.  (Shuriken alone has four separate suggestions.) Still many more are contingent on the implementation of others.  It would be infeasible to vote on each and every suggestion.

Might I suggest we isolate the skills, equipment, and jobs in most dire need of change and focus on only those in the next patch?  Smaller matters, as well as matters that might require extensive work (e.g., creating new active and RSM skills), could be relegated to a future patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 01, 2016, 11:39:42 pm
I agree. We are really just suggesting things like crazy because we get inspiration and ideas, but we need to weed out the actual important stuff from the creative "this would be cool" ideas. I don't think the suggestions list is really getting us anywhere anymore, it's kinda just there. I keep saying that we need to establish a priority cue, but it's difficult when we keep suggesting things and don't do anything with them.

Here's a list of what I, personally, feel we need to take a look at for the next patch. I had a rant typed up about how we need a new system but I don't want to be too strict...

My list is in this format:

Jobs: If a job needs something about it changed, like equipment/stats/etc, put it here
Skill Sets: If a skill set has skills that need to be looked at, list them and those skills here
Weapons: Put any weapons that need changes here
Shields: Put any shields that need changes here
Armor: Put any armor that needs changes here
Accessories: Put any accessories that need changes here
Statuses: Put statuses that need their protection/infliction/attributes/etc re-evaluated here


Jobs: Paladin, Summoner, Dancer

Skill Sets:
Basic Skill - Concentrate, Luck Up
White Magic - Raise 2, Piety
Chivalry - Lay on Hands
Punch Art - All damaging punch arts, Chakra, Martial Arts
Time Magic - Slow 2
Elemental - All non-elemental geomancies, Counter Flood
Ninjitsu - Shuriken
Steal - Roulette
Dance - Everything

Weapons:
All Spell Guns
Holy Lance
Javelin
Any crossbow besides Atma Bow or Gastrafitis
Staves other than healing/wizard
Meteor Rod

Shields:
Aegis Shield

Armor:
Triangle Hat
Golden Hairpin
Mythril Helmet

Accessories:
Cursed Ring

Statuses: Berserk, Undead, Slow, Sap
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 02, 2016, 02:34:24 am
The suggestion list is pretty flawed since it leads to bias and lead to unnecessary arguing. 140 worked because it was a community effort. There's no need for leaders or any hierarchy.


Jobs:
Mime - More HP
Monk - Balanced PA, 12(M), 10(F)
Samurai - 4 Move
Summoner - 10-15 C-EV

Skill Sets - Archer, Dancer,
Archer - Hawk's Eye
Bard - Nameless Song
Chemist - Phoenix Pinion, Phoenix Down(still vanilla)
Dancer - Everything
Mediator - Warn, add Wall(Reflect too low prioity and situational to be AI friendly)
Monk - All Physical Arts and Chakra. Martial Arts only works when Unarmed.
Ninja - Shuriken Give it an improved Gil Toss formula with 25% add poison. Still costs MP
Priest - Cure 1-4, Raise 2, Holy
Samurai - Bizen Boat
Scholar - Lore, Mad Science, Melt
Summoner - Bahamut, Zodiac, Cyclops
Thief - Roulette
Time Mage - Haste 2, Slow 2
Wizard - Dark Holy, Poison

Weapons
Cloths - All due to Dancer being balanced
Crossbows - All but Gastrophetes and Night Killer (Gastrophetes needs a name update)
Guns - Elemental Guns, Healing Gun
Katana - Chirijiraden, Muramasa
Knives - Toy Knife
Longbows - Long Bow, Poison Bow,
Ninja Swords - Hidden Knife, Iga and Koga Knife, Spell Edge
Rods - Remove joke weapons
staves - Gold Staff (12 WP), Rainbow Staff (10 WP), Wizard Staff (8 WP)
Swords - Remove Rune Blade, Change to Bag, Ultima Weapon +1 MA and PA

Shields
Crystal Shield - Always Reflect
Genji Shield - 30, 5, 1 PA, no special

Hats
Triangle Hat - Immune Faith, Innocent
Golden Hairpin

Headbands
Focus Band - POison and Sap Immunity

Helmets
Mythril Helmet - +1 Jump and Move, Immune Faith and Innocent

Clothes
Earth Clothes

Robes
Chameleon Robe

Accessories - Change all items that were balanced with weapon absorb synergy in mind. (Whale Whisker + Chantage, Air Knife + Sandstorm, etc)
Sandstorm Treks
Jade Armlet
Hyper Wrist,
Cursed Ring - Increase revival to 66%
Defense Ring
Chantage

Status Effects
Float -  Could be removed or changed into a buff that affects all elements. Maybe Half all elements?
Transparent - prevents performing?
Slow - 33%
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 02, 2016, 01:03:18 pm
Might as well post what I believe are priorities as well.  I'll intentionally keep this short:



  • Ninja lose flails OR Scorpion Tail reverts to 11 WP

  • Swap Time Mage and Summoner base HP





  • Give one skill Remove: Undead.  (Among the existing skills, Heal and Misogi are the best candidates.)

  • Buff Shuriken

  • Make offensive Punch Art formula linear to avoid runaway damage on Punch Art users that accumulate PA

  • Nerf Spin Fist slightly (e.g., remove smart targeting or reduce Vert to 0.)

  • Move Heretic to Ninjutsu

  • Fix Roulette somehow

  • Merge Caution and Awareness reaction abilities

  • Move Balance to Lore

  • Move Holy to Black Magic.  Move one or more Black status magic to another job if skill space is needed.

  • Remove Add: Regen from Masamune ONLY IF Regen and Refresh are merged.  In this event, change targeting from linear to AoE to compensate

  • Turn Lore into random fire AoE (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=10016.0)

  • Dance: Fix it! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Isjgc0oX0s)





  • Revert Scorpion Tail WP to 11 OR Ninja lose flail access

  • Nerf spell guns slightly (e.g., reduce WP or turn spell guns into books)

  • Redesign cloths to fulfill some unique role

  • Remove Hidden Knife from the game if it causes magic to pierce MEv

  • Make Rune Blade a bag OR remove Rune Blade from the game if Regen and Refresh are merged





  • Slightly nerf Aegis Shield

  • Slightly buff Genji Shield





  • Change Golden Hairpin from Strengthen: Holy, Dark to Halve: Holy, Dark.  Move Strengthen: Holy, Dark to a new or redesigned robe





  • Change Slow to -33% SP. Increase its CT if necessary.

  • Merge Regen and Refresh, as well as Poison and Sap




Other changes people think are essential are fine, too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 12:14:06 pm
I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit   100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 03, 2016, 03:32:08 pm
For a patch between major releases (unless we're jumping right into the next full version, which I don't think we are) I think we can be pretty concise. Having taken a look at the tournament and even what many melee teams are doing, I've tried to narrow it down to about ten changes for what I think should be in. I'm not saying that many of the other ideas aren't interesting, should or should not be implemented or whatnot, but I think we should be pretty limited as to what we introduce to the next patch. A reminder that 1.4a didn't get many changes from 1.4.


1. I think something needs to be done about the spell guns. They're pretty darn strong, unevadable, and are one shotting all over the place. My idea was to revamp them as totally different guns with more constant spells like Ultima, Balance, etc. but I think making them like a book weapon as Gaignun suggested is a pretty good idea too. That way, they're evadable, shorter range, etc.

2. Dark Holy/Holy should mirror each other and perhaps be at 15 MA each. Holy can go to Black Magic as well.

3. Swift Plate can be Immune: Haste, Immune: Slow with +1 Speed. I also think its evasion can be slightly buffed (perhaps to 10/10).

4. Heal should gain Remove: Undead and Misogi should gain Remove: Innocent.

5. Spin Fist should have its vertical removed.

6. Muramasa and Heavy Lance should change properties. (Since the design of a Samurai has very few defensive properties, I believe that the Spear could gain the 20% Decap Proc since it's more likely that a Defensive Lancer will be used. It still makes the Decap Proc exclusive to one class, while giving the Samurai the chance to Break Armor, which could actually be useful when using Elemental Draw Outs.)

7. Time Mages and Summoners swap base HP values.

8. Blind Rage loses some accuracy OR Battle Rod and Platinum Rod Switch properties. (Since it is more likely you'll be using the Platinum Sword in conjunction with a Melee unit, where you'll use a Rod with a mage type unit, it's probably more beneficial if Blind Rage stays the same to be immune to Berserk for the Mage unit. However, if we do this, I'd say rename it "Wizard Rod" so that way its name is consistent with what it means.)

9. If changing Golden Hairpin to Half: Dark, Holy, then add Clothing that strengthens it, not a robe. One of the reasons it's being discussed is that it provides a lot of MP on top of strengthening.

10. Add a point, or perhaps 2, of PA to Dancers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 05:02:28 pm
Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 04, 2016, 02:22:43 am
Quote from: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 05:02:28 pm
Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP


I would rather see weapons with fewer selections gain an extra option or two over seeing more spellguns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 04, 2016, 05:58:32 am
@ gatebuster:

I like those clothes suggestions.

@ silentkaster:

I like your suggestions, too.  I would like to make two comments:

Holy/Dark Holy damage: Would it not be more consistent to make Dark Holy one point weaker than Holy?  Dark Holy is Nether Holy in all but name, and all Nether spells on Black Magic are one point weaker than their variants.  This is done to balance the safety of low brave with the risks of high faith.

Holy/Dark strengthening robe: I don't find the MP boost of a Holy/Dark strengthening robe a problem, given that we've had Black Robe for ages without any trouble. Nevertheless, making it clothes is OK with me, too.  No strong opinions here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 04, 2016, 01:07:21 pm
Dark Holy being as strong as Holy makes just as much sense as Holy on black magic.😂👌
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on October 04, 2016, 09:09:45 pm
Reks, WKW and I were discussing Spellbooks casting the respective Ice/Fire/Lightning spell, leaving gun with just four options. The "books" being sourced from slots previously believed unusable. This would leave us with three new slots in general or three new guns. Ranged weapons in general don't have as much love as Melee options. I haven't composed my non-elemental gun thoughts, but when I do I will let this page know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 10, 2016, 10:14:36 am
Aight, so I've given it a lot of thought, and

Well, I really don't have much of an opinion on many of the proposed changes. I DO agree where things -need- a change (Dancer), but for the most part I can't come up with a cohesive list of my own prioritized change offerings.

HOWEVER

I do have opinions towards - surprise surprise - Squires.

So, without further ado, a few things that came to mind during the dull period at work. (which is, in hindsight, pretty much all of it)

And do be aware that, yes, I am biased towards Squires a bit, so take what I say with a slight grain of salt (and not the whole damn shaker.)
Trying to be funny here, sorry if I sound a bit aggressive.



I don't like that someone (can't remember who) said that the skills in Basic Skill should be

Well

Basic, just BECAUSE they're a part of the skillset. This is a balance patch for PvP. It is extremely important that the skills here have SOMETHING desirable going for them, otherwise we're just suppressing a few skills that could be refurbished into something viable.

Stats!

Squires are pretty solid, statwise and equipment wise. I can't see any real reason to change anything, but... I do feel that Female's PA/MA is a bit out of balance, at least compared to the Male's and their Geomancer cousins. And they don't really benefit from having 8/8, as most female Squires are casters. So maybe a tiny adjustment to... I'unno, 7/9? 6/10 feels like it'd be copying Geo too much, though it'd put Males and females into perfect balance there. I mean, there are a lot of jobs for Male that share the 10 PA mark, or come extremely close to doing so, and I can see that having a very versatile job with the same MA as other jobs might give them less priority?

I dunno, they just feel unbalanced to me... Despite that they're in perfect balance at 8/8.

Skills!

Accumulate and Acla- no, calling it Focus: These two are pretty much the same skill, and nothing to really change. They're balanced, if a bit quirky with the AI's usage, and make for an okay option to grab when you wanna add a few more points of power.

Bullrush: I can't be nice here. This skill... Well, it sucks. There is literally 0 reason for anyone to grab it, or Counter Tackle, for that matter. And guess what? Tsumazuku now does the exact same thing and, while it has a tiny MP cost, it doesn't hurt you. So my suggestion is this - as Tsuma is now the (unused) answer to Masamune, make Bullrush the counter to Chivalry's Iron Will and Nurse, by forcefully removing Protect/Shell/Defending, and for that matter, remove it's P-EV penalty. The self-damage already makes it undesirable as it is, and despite that it's a free skill, the fact that it can miss just makes me overlook it every single time. This, at the very least, shouldn't make that much more desirable, but would guarantee it sees SOME use, especially since Chivalry is very popular now.

Throw Stone: Awesome as it is, nothing to say here.

Heal: Ahh, Heal. I have nothing to recommend for this except maybe adding Death Sentence or Undead removal to it. Undead is more preferred.

Yell: Well, we all know the AI loves to spam this because Haste, Haste, Haste! I really don't know what to suggest for this, as both Quickening and Mune do it's job better. Hell, Haste and Haste 2 do the job better. So if it'd be changed, rather than axed, it should add buffs that make sense.

Few of which do, so I support the newer Critical-heal skill in favor. (though that'd be used over AccumuFocus, since the AI weirdly uses those when they go into Critical.)

Wish: Oh, how I Wish you were better, but that'd probably just miss it's target. Seriously, I KNOW that Wish is supposed to be a poor man's Phoenix Down, but given the current meta of antisandbag (Via Geo, usually), it hurts any unit to carry this. The same can be said of Revive, and Fairy, but at least they're on more meta skillsets. I purposefully never touch Wish and actually recommend people AWAY from it because it runs the huge risk of getting you stuck in a easy sandbag loop. What's worse? It misses. A lot. I'm sorry, but when Raise 2's accuracy is on-par with you, AND that's almost always influenced by faith to be even higher...

Look, everything does it's job, but better, and keeping it as it is for the sake of "having the option of revival on a simple skillset" does not sell it. Phoenix Down doesn't miss. Revive heals for more. Fairy is multi-targeting.

If it CAN be done, and if nobody wants to risk making it's accuracy higher it in fear it'd make Item a less used skillset, have it work on fallen Undead units. That'd give it MASSIVE use and potential, especially if Heal gains the capability to remove Undead as well. Just

SOMETHING better than what it is currently. Please.

Ultima!: Well, my old suggestion of max(PA, MA)*9 still stands, because my latest team's demise has proven that it still is, in every way, inferior to Chiri.

Yeah, I know I've made a tangent about this before, but it's not because I think it's weak. Contrary wise, it hits as HARD as Chiri, and that's fantastic... Except that in order to do so, you have to sacrifice casting speed.

Yeah, a lot of units carry M-EV and Aegis Shields and it makes Ultima on par in the on-paper effectiveness, but when it comes down to it, Chiri being instant and easier to boost just makes Ultima go back to it's old, unused corner.

So what do I suggest, aside from the new above formula? Nothing, really. That small change will take it from it's current MA reliant state and let PA focused units use it, where it'd still largely be balanced because it has such a long casting time and would require sacrificing power at the cost of casting faster, which normally is useless on a PA Powerhouse.

[joke]Or make it's AoE 2 instead.[/joke]


Changes required in lieu of abovementioned suggestions:

Well, only one currently.

Ultima Weapon: if Ultima gains that new formula, it will need it's 2H capacity dropped, otherwise it'll become an effective 20 WP monster with an unevadable proc that hits for close to 200 each pop. And even so, it just steps on Shieldrender's toes even if it loses it's 2Hands.

I'd rather not see it lose both 2H and go back to being a 33% proc, but if that's what people require for a boost to Ultima, I suppose I can be happy with that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 12, 2016, 05:40:03 am
I am fully in agreement with elevating Basic Skill to the level of... every other skill set.

Adjusting female Squires' PA and MA: If we change the female Squire's PA/MA to 7/9, then I believe we would incidentally change the male Squire's PA/MA to 9/7.  This co-dependence is why we currently have so many (generally) useless jobs in Arena (e.g., male wizard, female monk).

Bullrush: Oddly enough, I myself have considered making Bullrush unevadable.  Both this and making it cancel Protect and Shell are good ideas to me.  If Protect and Shell inherit the Refresh status as a priority flag (so that the AI uses Protect and Shell at the start of battle as they ought to), then Bullrush will have a solid role in the metagame.

Heal: In addition to adding Cancel: Undead, I would also love to see this skill receive +1 Range to put it on par with Wish.

Yell: Absolutely in favour of a redesign.  Silentkaster's critical-only heal skill is a nice idea.

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 03, 2016, 06:13:21 pm
I was thinking about shuriken today and even though I think speed is its original formula for damage, if it needs a buff then why not do speed * 10 (or give it 0 MP cost so that way you can stack speed).

If it has to revert to its PA formula again, at least keep it single hit and doesn't phase through walls
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 21, 2016, 02:25:06 pm
Here is something that has been kicking around the back of my mind for awhile.

RSM system redesign
How would people feel about replacing the RSM system with a "RSXM" system? The "X" in this new system stands for "Equip X."

Currently, we have seven "Equip X" abilities.  In spite of this, only 20 units used an Equip X ability during Season 5, and over half of those (11) was Equip Shield.  I believe the reason why Equip X is hardly used is because its opportunity cost almost never outweighs its benefits.  When you use Equip X, you receive a very slight and/or team-specific bonus.  Meanwhile, you pass up on much better support abilities such as (Magic) Attack/Defense UP.

In this new system, we would group all Equip X skills into a single, new ability class.  Other underwhelming abilities (such as Maintenance) can also be thrown into this new class.  Reaction, support, and movement ability classes would remain unchanged.  Then, units can equip up to three abilities as before, but only one ability from each of the (now) four classes.  In other words, players can choose to sacrifice not only their support slot, but also their reaction or movement slots to accommodate an Equip X ability.

Implementing this new system should be possible without any ASM tinkering.  Right now, RSM abilities seem to be able to be scrambled and still work as intended.  So, the game should be able to handle a unit with, say, Attack UP in the R slot, Move +1 in the S slot, and Equip Heavy Blade in the M slot without any hiccups.  All that is required is the consensus of the community.

This redesign ought to open up plenty of new, unconventional designs.  Attack UP, Excalibur Grand Cross Monk? No problem!  Short Charge, Equip Armor tank mage? You got it!  Of course, these unconventional designs will come at the cost of the R or M slot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 22, 2016, 02:35:04 am
RSXM System counter argument matches (and further reinforcement that spell guns need to be changed :P):

https://www.twitch.tv/dw6561/v/102629903

Team used:

Player: 0 dw6561
Team: Weird Supports
Palettes: Black/White
Last Revision: 2016-11-21

================================

Insane Jump
Male
Virgo
70
50
Monk
Jump
Brave Up
Overwhelm
Equip Polearm
Dragon Whisker

Focus Band
Power Sleeve
Feather Boots

Stigma Magic
Jump Range 6, Vertical Ignore

================================

Pseudo Scholar
Female
Pisces
40
70
Time Mage
White Magic
Piety
Short Charge
Equip Armor
Healing Staff
Flame Shield
Diamond Helm
Diamond Armor
Dracula Mantle

Slow, Sinkhole
Cure 3, Raise 2, Regen, Esuna

================================

Kinda Regular
Male
Virgo
40
50
Mediator
Draw Out
Abandon
Equip Shield
Move-1
Main Gauche
Aegis Shield
Flash Hat
Black Costume
Dracula Mantle

Blackmail, Preach, Solution, Insult, Mimic Daravon
Masamune

================================

Luck Guard
Female
Cancer
40
70
Wizard
Summon Magic
Projectile Guard
Short Charge
Equip Light Gear
Hidden Knife

Holy Miter
Wizard Outfit
Defense Armlet

Nether Fire
Moogle, Fairy, Carbunkle, Odin, Zodiac

================================


Teams fought:
Gaignun's season 5 team
Silentkaster's 100% accuracy
Dokurider's Oregon Trails
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 22, 2016, 02:47:15 am
Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

Nobody uses Equip Light Gear for the clothes+weapons combos, as they may as well just use a ninja for this purpose (honestly, it's pretty much Equip Ninja minus Two Swords, lol.)  If I see Equip Light Gear in action, it's usually for the Hidden Knife on mages.

Equip Magegear is rarely used; and, if it *is* used, it's for the weapons it has to offer.

Mind you, if we did this, we would have to adjust what jobs have which RSMs, but I don't think it would be all that troublesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 22, 2016, 03:41:04 pm
Thanks for the concept matches, dw.  You raise some good points!  An RSXM system would be hugely beneficial for units like monster truck monks with pointed sticks and mages with Hidden Knife.  As you kindly demonstrated, the current jobs and equipment aren't balanced to accommodate such a system.

Now that I think about it, opening up combos like Equip Spellgun/Magic Attack UP/Pilgrimage to every unit in the game would suck.  I hope spellguns get changed regardless, though.

Quote from: Andrew on November 22, 2016, 02:47:15 am
Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.


I am personally fine with this. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 24, 2016, 11:27:27 pm
Cool.  I'm glad that you like it, Gaignun.


I know that I'm a little late to the party, but here's my favourites from the suggestion list (and thread):
ESSENTIAL (would make all of the difference, and would like to see these implemented ASAP):
- Dancer gains +1 PA and access to another weapon type (Maybe katana?  Ideally, DW's reworking as well, once she fleshes it out more!)
- Male monks go down to 12 base PA  OR  lose access to bags
- Samurai gain +1 Move, +10% C-Ev, but lose 20 base HP (Go-go melee samurai!)
- Summoner and Time Mage swap base HP values

- Lay on Hands: Becomes Hit_PA+70% (It would actually be usable by units of low Brave OR high Brave!)
- Elemental skillset: Non-elemental skills go back to PA+2 bonus (My mistake... sorry, guys and gals.  :P)
- Item skillset: Various items switching what statuses they cure; new items.  (I would at least like to see Antidote/Ether/Hi-Ether changed, and for Phoenix Pinion to make it into the game.  Or, if people don't want another resurrection skill on Item, perhaps we could simply buff Phoenix Down with values similar to Pinion?)
- PRISM TRIBUTE (Weapon elemental, map-radius Lore skills.  Enough said.  Two thumbs and two big toes way up.)
- Punch Art skillset: Linear formula introduced (PA*X), remove Martial Arts, and lower Punch Art JP costs (All of this would make Punch Art a lot easier to balance, and a lot more fair for users with lower PA values!  Removing Martial Arts would also terminate its unintended interactions with certain skills, like Gil Toss.)
- Spin Fist: Goes to 0 vertical
- Roulette: Loses Frog, gains Death Sentence and HP Poison (We could always put Frog on something else, be it a skill or weapon.)
- Comet: Gains CM and CF
- Haste 2/Slow 2: Lose smart-targeting (Mostly for Slow 2; would see less spam, especially in smaller maps.)
- Esuna/Raise/Raise 2: More JP (I want White Magic users to struggle with JP, since the skillset is so damn good.)
- Holy: Moves to Black Magic (Death moves somewhere else?), MAx15
- Piety: Trigger becomes Critical-only (I designed this one to originally fill a defensive role, believe it or not!  If it's not possible to change its trigger, then change the status it gives to something else, or remove it.)
- Blind Rage: Loses Darkness (Better than my idea.)

- Scorpion Tail: 11 WP (I'd still be scared of 12 WP even if we removed the HP Poison proc.)
- Hidden Knife: Remove from the game (Unevadable magic... enough said.)
- Holy Lance: Gains 1 Move, loses 1 Speed
- Javelin: Gains 1 Speed (I feel that adjusting Holy Lance and Javelin would "complete" spears, and thus Lancer as a whole.  Spears define Lancer, making it unique amongst the rest of the jobs.  This would be the icing on the cake.)
- Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)

- Golden Hairpin: Halves Dark/Holy, new robe made for strengthening

- Cursed Ring: Loses Fire weakness

- Critical hits no longer knock-back (Two reasons: Unfair for units with Two Swords, since if they crit with their first attack and knock-back occurs, the second attack will not land.  Also, the crit knock-back has a strange interaction with weapon skills, as it can cause the affected to go out-of-bounds; that is, push them out of the map, and thus bugging the match up.)


NON-ESSENTIAL (would be nice to have, but can wait for a later patch):
- Heal: 2 range and gains Undead removal
- Luck UP: 60% bonus
- Poison: Gains MP Poison, 12 MP cost
- Consecration: Speed+90% accuracy
- Misogi: Gains Faith removal
- Raiton (NEW): Same as the other -tons, but Lightning elemental.  Who likes the idea of blasting things with electricity?  This guy right here.
- Shuriken: Reverts to pre-140 version
- Hawk's Eye: 0 MP
- Heretic: Move to Ninjutsu, 2 CT, 0 MP
- Mind Ruin/Power Ruin: Combine, move to another skillset, possible name change
- Bahamut: MAx13
- Caution: Combine with Awareness
- Cyclops: JP reduction
- Titan: 4 CT, MAx8, 100% cancel Charging/Performing
- Protect/Shell: 100% hit

- Unarmed: PAx10 (Plays well with linear Punch Art.  May not be necessary, but "10" seems to be the magic number in Arena.)
- Bags: Become WPxWP
- Crossbows: I like increasing the status crossbows' proc chances.  One-handed Gastrafitis would be nice, as well.
- Healing Gun: 6 range
- Black Staff: 33% proc chance
- Platinum Sword: Gains Slow, loses Berserk
- Rune Blade --> M Bag (Everybody should be allowed in on the MP regeneration love.)

- Aegis/Crystal/Genji reworkings (Aegis is too good, while Crystal and Genji are definitely lackluster.)
- Swift Plate: Gaining Slow, Stop, and Haste immunity, but losing its Speed
- Severed Head (NEW): 10% P/M-Ev, always Berserk and initial Haste (Would allow for evasive Berserkers.  The lack of Two Hands/Two Swords would be noticable, but since Berserkers can evade now, it could have some fun uses!  I feel that the initial Haste isn't necessary, though.)

- Accessories: Various attribute switching (Not happy with how accessories are currently.  Certain ones, like Defense Ring, still need to be toned-down and I think simply swapping status immunity attributes around should balance this problem out just fine.)


Also, here's some other new ideas that myself and others have come-up with in the Discord channel recently:
- Bullrush: Loses recoil and Haste removal, PAx10, 100% knock-back, 100 JP (Something that myself, DW, and CT5 created earlier today.  Intentional knock-back that can actually benefit its user and their team.  Knocking the enemy into a charging spell's AoE, or off of a cliff for some hefty damage... the possibilities are endless!  Muhahahaha!)
- Counter Tackle: 100 JP (If Bullrush changes.  Could become a nice defensive tool for squishies.)
- Yell: Affects user, as well (Would use one of Dokurider's newest ASMs.)
- Muramasa: Becomes PA*8 (Maintains its Death Sentence proc.  Would make the skillset more appealing to use by male samurai/other physicals.)
- Murasame: Heal_([MA+PA/2]x13) (Would make Draw Out more friendly for physical/hybrid builds, in addition to the Muramasa suggestion above.)
- Counter Flood --> "Counter Comet": 70 damage, 200 JP, goes to Time Magic (DW's idea.  So solid.  No more fury bug, either!  Would function like Comet in that it would be ranged, unmitigable, and unavoidable.)
- Tsumazuku: 0 MP, gains MP Regen removal (CT5's idea, with input from myself and DW.  The AI would actually bother to use it more due to it costing 0 MP, and would be an effective anti-Regen and anti-Masamune!  I think that this alone would justify it staying at 200 JP.)
- Stop: +1 CT or -accuracy (Slower means more opportunities for redirection!  Screeeew this skill.)

- Poison Bow: Becomes a crossbow again and gains the ability to inflict HP Poison, as well (DW's idea.  Dual Poison funsies!  Would be very annoying to deal with.)
- Masamune: Gains Stop immunity, +1 PA, and +1 MA, but loses its other properties (Something Alfa and I came-up with together.  Who wouldn't want more Stop protection?  Also would pair up nicely with Geomancy and/or the Muramasa and Murasame skill ideas of mine.)

- Chantage: Loses absorb Water, but gains initial Protect and Shell (Something DW and I came-up with a few days back.  Would make Chantage similar to the other perfumes again.  While Undead immunity, initial Reraise, initial Protect and initial Shell may sound like much, it also wouldn't take much to dispel these statuses, leaving the user with a measly single status immunity for the rest of the fight.  Could be good for units that need to get into the fray quickly with as little as possible stopping them.)
- Elf Mantle --> "Aqua Glove": Absorb Water; Don't Move, MP Poison and Petrify immunity (DW and I feel that the Chantage's Water absorb could go to a new accessory that gives enough status immunity diversity to fill in the gaps for many types of units who are building for status protection.  The Elf Mantle is the perfect accessory to replace; I honestly don't remember the last time I've seen this one in action, as people are much more inclined to use the Leather Mantle or even the Feather Mantle.)

- MP Poison: Becomes 1/4th (DW, myself, and others were talking about this one.  MP Poison in its current state sucks, even if it were to be combined with HP Poison... not that I fancy that idea one bit.  At least with it becoming 1/4th, the affected's team would have to spend more turns restoring MP, actually giving something back to the team that afflicted it in the first place.)



Quote from: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 12:14:06 pm
I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit           100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.


I'm definitely cool with this.


Quote from: Gaignun on October 12, 2016, 05:40:03 am
<snip>

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.


I'm definitely in favour of buffing Wish and even Revive.  Maybe Wish could go to 25%, and Revive to 33%?  If need be, they could have their JP costs increased, but I don't feel that would be necessary.  Chirijiraden could definitely go down to MAx8 and 300 JP.


EDIT 1: Removed my Bronze Armor idea, as CT5 convinced me that it wouldn't be a good idea.

EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, Chirijiraden can go to MAx8 and stay at 400 JP, as it'd still be worth the price.  Also, Phoenix Blade should go down to 13 WP: initial Reraise is powerful in its own right, so it should be brought down to the power of the other elemental swords, at the very least.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 25, 2016, 02:10:29 pm
Quote from: Andrew on November 24, 2016, 11:27:27 pm
- Spell Guns: WP reduction or turn into books (Magical books that shoot... magic.  It makes sense!)


I'm glad you like the book idea!  We can do Harry Potter cosplay together.

My comments on the new ideas as a Discord outsider:


  • Bullrush & Counter Tackle causing 100% knockback: Sounds fun.

  • Yell casting Haste on user & target: Not in favour.  The AI will still eat up turns applying Haste to its team members one at a time.  Admittedly, Masamune suffers from the same issue, but at least Masamune has the strict range and height restrictions to keep the AI from going nuts.  I am still partial to silentkaster's idea (i.e., Heal (+ Buffs?), Critical only).

  • Muramasa becomes PA*8: I am afraid this will not produce its intended effect.  If a PA-stacked samurai comes within 1 range of its target, it will probably smack the target with its weapon rather than use Muramasa, seeing that its WP > 8 in most cases.

  • Murasame becomes (MA+PA/2)*13: I like the idea, but the formula sounds incredibly strong.  We'll need to discuss a balanced formula.

  • Counter Comet: 70 damage feels like a poor man's Damage Split to me.  Is somewhere between 70 and 100 damage too high?

  • MP Poison: Weren't we going to merge both types of poison into a single one?  MP damage could stay at 1/8 max MP if the poisons are merged.


The other items are OK to me.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
LOL, sounds like a fun time for next Halloween.  :P

Yell: I honestly don't know what else to do to it without it becoming a clone of the other Haste skills.  Somebody mentioned in Discord that it could use Dokurider's new "cone AoE" ASM hack.  (A similar suggestion was made for Aurablast and the physical Draw Outs, as well.)
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?
Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?
MP Poison: 1/4th would allow for it to keep-up with how fast-paced Arena can be, and put pressure on mages.  I feel that merging it with HP Poison wouldn't solve its potency problem at all, as most MP builds would easily shrug off its damage (unless it went to 1/4th as well as merged, but I think that'd be a little too much).  I guess it would persist upon death, though, so it would still be an improvement.

I'm glad that you like the other suggestions.

EDIT: To clarify, the cone AoE would look like this: (Gatebuster202 said that we could perhaps use it for Muramasa, as well)
ooPoo
ooxoo
oxxxo
xxxxx
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Muramasa: What if it was PAx9 and had more vertical going for it, since Attack's vertical is only 2?


I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Murasame: I hope that (MA+PA/2)*X is at least a step in the right direction.  Originally, it was *12, not *13.


Let's see.  Currently Murasame is MA*10 and cannot be boosted with MAtk UP (i.e., its output value is immutable).  Turning it into (MA+PA/2)*10 would add a flat 5*PA.  Going from there to (MA+PA/2)*12 would be equivalent to first buffing the current Murasame to MA*12, then adding a flat 6*PA on top of that.  I'm sure you can see by now how strong of a buff that is.

How about we start with XA = (MA+PA)/2 as a guide? Most classes have somewhere around 7 XA. The top scorers are the Dancerbard (10) and Monk, Geomancer, Samurai, and Scholar (9). To uphold the healing "floor" (e.g., 110 healing by an 11 MA female samurai (famurai?)) the formula XA*(11~12) would be appropriate.  To uphold the healing "ceiling" (e.g., 180 healing by a MA-stacked Geomancer), the formula XA*14 would be appropriate.  Upholding the floor knocks down the ceiling, and upholding the ceiling lifts up the floor.

Next, let's consider XA = (MA+PA/2) as originally suggested. Now the average XA is around 12~13, and the top scorers are the Bard (16), female Samurai and Scholar (14.5), and Dancer (14).  The appropriate formula is then around XA*8 (floor and ceiling).


Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Counter Comet: I originally thought 75 would be okay.  How about 80?


80 is better than 70!

Quote from: Andrew on November 25, 2016, 02:49:07 pm
Cone AoE stuff


The cone AoE feels like something I would see in Disgaea.  I am eager to listen to the possibilities this AoE hack would bring.  It feels a little thematically inconsistent on Draw Out, but definitely neat on Punch Art.

Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 28, 2016, 02:47:13 pm
I like the spell book ideas. That looks like it's cool.

And also, I know it will sound a bit too nit picky but for a class called scholar it cant wield books? Are they illiterate?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 28, 2016, 03:07:02 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
I don't think even 9*PA would make much difference seeing how most two-handed weapons have at least 16 effective WP.  Extra vertical would be nice, but then the skill would be very situational.

Yeah, you're right.  I had an idea about turning it into a physical version of Chirijiraden, but that would definitely overshadow Spin Fist, a skill that definitely needs a nerf as it is.  I'm a little sad right now, TBH.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
<Murasame stuff>

Makes sense.  I'd be fine with *8 or *9.  Please, join us on Discord!  (Seriously)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 28, 2016, 01:14:53 pm
Spellbooks
Finally, let me close with a few formal spellbook suggestions.  As a common theme, every book is imbued with an element.

Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*13)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*14)]
Necronomicon: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

The book colors are coordinated with the spell elements (i.e., Omnilex is red, Heptameron is blue, Picatrix is yellow, and Necronomicon is an ominous green).  These books would replace the current ones.

I hate spellguns so much that I, in the end, wouldn't mind having these replacing the current books.  However, any weapon can have its type turned into another, so we can simply just turn the spellguns into spellbooks, and leave the current books alone (or, if need be, we can buff them in a less extreme way).  Also, there's already the Black Staff for Bio 3, which I'm hoping will have its proc chance buffed in the future.  Despite my gripes, I like what you've come-up with here.

Thanks for the feedback, Gaignun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 28, 2016, 05:02:01 pm
I had (PA+MA)/2*Y in mind all along when I mentioned it on Discord. That might have just been an order of operations miscommunication on my part.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 28, 2016, 05:14:35 pm
My bad, DW.  :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark

The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:

With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.

Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 30, 2016, 10:23:00 am
Your insight is appreciated, Gaignun.  Thanks, and GL with your exam!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 30, 2016, 11:50:06 am
Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
I'm looking for ways to avoid preparing for an exam, so here's a survey of the proposed elemental armor along with my predictions on the metagame.

Shirts
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest      100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit      100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit        100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water

Robes
White Robe    80   50   Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Black Robe     65   40   Boost: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Cultist Robe    65   40   Boost: Holy, Dark



Minor point, but could we keep Rubber Costume as the name and perhaps use Adaman Vest or Mythril Vest for the Holy/Wind absorb if this gets implemented? I just like to keep it consistent in areas we can with Vanilla. I understand Aqua Suit as that would entirely cover all H20 based offense so it sounds good.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
The elemental meta is flattened
Until recently, each element had its own niche:
  • Fire, Ice, and Lightning are easily defended against thanks to White Robe and elemental clothing. (Two of the most common elemental defenses in S5 were Fire and Lightning.) They are also easily boosted thanks to Black Robe, rods, and Mace of Zeus.



At the moment, I think that these are necessary unfortunately with spell guns. Even in 1.38d when Spell Guns ran rampant, they still often took two hits to take down mages that weren't ridiculously low in HP even at maximum capacity. This is no longer the case. Also, Defense Ring and Defense Armlet probably accounted for much of the elemental defenses since these accessories are so strong (particularly since most were anticipating people to run teams with Don't Act and Berserk.) I think if Spell Guns get addressed, this may be different.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Water suffers from a lack of solid weapons and skills, so it is probably the least threatening element of the bunch. Teams that defend against water usually do so incidentally (e.g., they use Flash hat to protect themselves from Earth, or Wizard Mantle to protect themselves from Don't Act.)


Agreed, though Water does have the unique ability to not be hampered by Reflect Ring/Reflect status.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Earth, in contrast, has some great weapons and skills in its repertoire (e.g. Kikuichimonji, Quake, and Earth is Slash). Furthermore, it is the easiest element to simultaneously boost and absorb thanks to Earth Clothes.  Together with Black Clothes, Earth Clothes is the only armor to boost elements, but unlike Black Robe, you got absorption as a two-for-one deal.  Furthermore, Earth Clothes granted a whopping +25 HP over Black Robe. Altogether, Earth-absorption teams are the easiest to design. For that reason, earth protection is important in the metagame.


Earth has always been an exceptionally strong element. I always overlooked it a bit since Float can negate much of the Earth Element, but it's easier to make many types of teams which also happen to absorb Earth (as opposed to having the drawbacks many other elemental absorb teams have where abilities and equipment may have to be sacrificed to absorb particular elements.) I think Earth Clothes getting a swap is a good thing. However, then I would advocate for Monks keeping bags.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Wind is earth's retarded cousin: It is represented with a similar set of skills and is countered by the same equipment (Flash Hat), but is harder to boost. Wind-themed teams have been taking a backseat ever since their only self-absorbable AoE spell (Tornado) was nerfed to be weaker than Black Magic's Fire spell and Wave Fist became Holy elemental. (Seriously, only 3% of units used Wind offense in S5 -- by far the lowest of all elements.)


Agreed fully on this.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Holy is currently the offensive superstar: Easily boosted thanks to Golden Hairpin and easily accessible and destructive due to the presence of its eponymous skill on White Magic.  Meanwhile, Holy absorption gear is hard to utilize (i.e., the only Holy-absorbing armor is on a robe, and Magic Ring is underwhelming compared to superior accessories like Diamond Armlet.) Consequently, Holy-absorption teams are uncommon. (Holy was the most effective offensive element in S5: 20% of units used it, but only 11% blocked it.) With White Magic Holy users abound, you can count on equipment like Dracula Mantle and Chameleon robe to save your bacon.


This last patch, Holy saw a huge increase because of the lack of Holy element, at least AOE wise. With the new Heaven's Cloud, it's a huge boost since most teams did not want to count on "Holy spamming" theirselves in order to heal. Though it still doesn't have AOE like other elements, it's a much more viable option now. I would also argue that most teams having Reflect probably had Holy and Dark Holy in mind when thinking of using it (I'm aware some teams may have been thinking of Yin Yang Magic or Black Magic spells instead, but I'd be more inclined to believe Holy and Dark Holy were at the top of the list.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
  • Dark is Holy's dark twin (heh), as it is boostable by the same means (Golden Hairpin). However, Dark is more easily absorbed due to Black Costume, so more teams shy away from Dark-themed offense on average.  Dark was by far the most absorbed element back when Golden Hairpin gave +1 MA and you were stupid to not run a Draw Out Kotetsu unit.


Again, pretty agreed. This was also partially due to Cursed Ring being stronger than its current form.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
With the introduction of the new clothes, the absorption of every element becomes equally accessible.  So, instead on banking on Holy and Earth, you might as well just pick your favourite color.

Earth teams take a hit
The loss of Earth Clothes means that Earth is now no easier to use than any other element.  Earth strengthening is now only practical with Crystal Helmet and Prismatic Rod.  Furthermore, a second piece of equipment is needed to absorb Earth.  Crystal Helmet wearers have access to only Diamond Armlet, which severely restricts design freedom.  Also, users without helmet or rod access can no longer strengthen Earth natively.  The biggest losers that comes to mind due to this are Monks.

Holy and Dark teams take a hit
Shifting holy/dark strengthening from Golden Hairpin to a new piece of armor means that units without access to shields can no longer boost and absorb Holy and Dark without using their accessory slot.  And the accessories that absorb Holy (Magic Ring) and Dark (N-Kai Armlet) are lousy in my opinion.  Furthermore, the Holy/Dark boosting robe has very low HP.  Flimsy armor + no accessory freedom means Holy/Dark teams will be pretty fragile.  Furthermore, the loss of Chameleon Robe means that Grand Cross Excalibur Paladins go extinct.


Yup. That's why I'd advocate for Monks to still equip bags. I think they're going to see more nerfs which I'm not sure how I feel about, so if Earth Clothes get nixed, then I think bags are fair. Yeah, and if that's the case, Excalibur basically goes extinct along with it. If this happens, perhaps exchanging Excalibur's properties with one of the Fire/Lightning/Ice swords would work? (So that Paladins could equip shields and absorb Holy that way with the Holy crossing sword. Either that, or making Excalibur the sole Knight Sword that isn't forced 2H.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 03:33:28 am
Lightning is the new Earth
With Earth Clothes gone, Mace of Zeus becomes the only piece of equipment that both boosts and absorbs.  Slap that on a mage, pick and mix your armor and accessories, and have some fun.


Yup, and with Spell Guns, I think it'd be really over the top. So not sure I'd want Lightning to be the new Go-To at the moment.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 09:32:35 pm
Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 01, 2016, 03:21:21 am
Quote from: Gaignun on November 30, 2016, 09:32:35 pm
Thank you for your comments, silentkaster.  I think you're right to worry about Monks losing bags if Earth-strengthening clothes disappear.

I need to correct my spellbook proposal.  I got confused over the Master's guide.  Spellguns have tier 3 animations, right?  Yet they are written as casting tier 2 spells.  Anyway!

Spellbooks revision
Omnilex: 14 WP, 3 Range, Cast Fire 2 [Dmg_F(WP*10)]
Heptameron: 13 WP, 3 Range, Cast Ice 2 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]
Picatrix: 12 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bolt 2 [Dmg_F(WP*12)]
Necronomicon: 11 WP, 3 Range, Cast Bio 3 [Dmg_F(WP*11)]

Damage with MAtk UP and (without→with) elemental strengthening .
Faith is not factored in.

Omnilex: 180→220
Heptameron: 187→231
Picatrix: 192→240
Necronomicon: 154→187, 20% add Undead

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.


If you recall, originally all four levels of each spell existed. At one point, the original tier for 2 became the nether spells  and the 4th level spells were axed to provide room for Water. The spell guns were then set to cast only the strongest spell instead of being random, which was the old 3 (now called Fire 2, ect), and that's why the animations don't technically line up in order.

I would much rather see the level 4 animations over the 3 ones because they have more visual oomph, but that's me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on December 01, 2016, 11:44:05 am
Quote

Elemental strengthening costs up to 65 max HP (i.e., Brigandine→elemental robe) or the accessory slot (i.e., anything→108 Gems). The damage is roughly the same as current spellguns, but the books have shorter range, can miss, and can be equipped by only slow, squishy Priests and Summoners.  All in all, spellbooks should be much less potent than spellguns.


For the record, I would have to code the spell guns to miss. The magic gun formula doesn't account for evasion. My understanding of it is that it would be just like a 3 range spell gun that doesn't have to worry about projectile guard.I still like this though because of the shorter range and like you said, summoners and priests. Though also I'm a little nervous about the extra high-faith synergy this could resukt with on priests 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on December 17, 2016, 12:35:00 pm
I haven't replied in a while but the elemental clothing was sorta, my baby, on discord anyway.

Now that I've seen the conversation I throw in some thoughts.

1 Hairpin Change. It wasn't mentioned but Hairpin getting the Half Elemental means that Faith teams don't have to rely on two slots to provide Holy/Dark Holy protection. This hurts the Dark/Holy meta that has exploded with Bizen Boat and the hybrid classes. (Geo/Sam) and their access to easy holy boosting.

2 Earth Clothes losing strength earth. This hurts monks. It was geared towards reducing monks a bit in the EASE of synergizing with other units. If we gave one additional headband to the monk that say, boosted Wind and Earth and then returned Aura blast to wind an made it cone AOE. Monks have two elemental AOE options that punish teams that clump up, and are then forced to choose offense or defense with their headbands. That also only boosts one -Ton and doesn't make monks any scarier at anything else while allowing them to best utilize punch art.

3 Dark/Holy/Excaliber- Excaliber should be one handed and not able to be two handed. If it is the Arthurian blade of legend it is perfectly balanced and fast as lightning.

Dark and Holy teams with out access to Shield and Robes an Helmets can't easily boost it... Who does this impact that would use it? Does it make Geomancers squishy? Yes. Does it make samurai squishy to boost dark? Yes. Does this ruin a few builds... I didn't see any with a quick glance. It limited design in some areas, but the proliferation of Hybrid builds have overshadowed the base MA/PA classes this patch. Bard excluded.

I currently am suffering the "head cold from hell." But if you have other points or counter arguments I will get back to you ASAP. :)

Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 29, 2017, 12:30:39 pm
I have had some time to play around with 1.41. I like many of the changes. However, there are a few things that are nagging me:

Cheer Up
I think that this skill could use an AoE buff (like Yell) to make it more useful.

Refute
Was the accuracy of this skill always (MA+55)%?

Battle Orders & Pathos Speech
Currently underwhelming in comparison to their Sing predecessors for several reasons:

I never felt that the Sing skills were particularly powerful to begin with, so these changes are particularly discouraging for me.

Excalibur
What happened to this weapon? It took a big WP nerf, and now it is only worth using in combination with the Two Hand support ability. The Grand Cross Excalibur build is no more.

+1 Move on Samurai
I understand that the +1 Move tremendously helps the male melee Samurai out, but it helps the female Draw Out samurai just as much.  Before we had to settle for Draw Out Geomancers if we wanted 4 base Move. Now we can stick with Samurai and use their secondary skill slot for whatever we please.  Female Samurai have become much more effective as a result (and they were already pretty effective to begin with).  This is just something to keep an eye on.

And speaking of Draw Out...

Nerf Bizen Boat
MA*8, element-boostable, BrFa-piercing damage is too high.  The synergy of Bizen Boat and Crystal Helm on the now fleet-footed Samurai is incredible.
Chirijiraden took a damage hit from MA*9 to MA*8. Bizen Boat should take a hit, too, if only to keep Draw Out internally balanced.


Peacemaker
I am puzzled over why Stone Gun got its one-handed property back. Stone Gun was made Force-2H because it eclipsed crossbows. The new Peacemaker with Attack UP beats Gastrafitis with Concentrate hands down: Peacemaker delivers similar damage, but requires none of the PA stacking that Gastrafitis does. If Peacemaker remained Forced-2H, at least you'd have to give up your shield for this extra equipment freedom.

Spellguns
I am sure I will take heat for this, but I miss the fire, ice, and lightning spell guns. These three guns served a unique role: Healing high-faith friendly targets with high M-EV.  As a bonus, these guns could trigger Counter Magic, so with the right equipment the spellgunner could also heal herself in the process. On the flipside, White Robes were effective at defending against these spellguns. Flare Gun feels a little lackluster in comparison: It cannot be used for friendly healing, and it cannot be mitigated by White Robe. Perhaps Flare Gun is a slightly more consistent offensive weapon, but it is not nearly as versatile as its predecessors.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on March 29, 2017, 01:44:15 pm
Heya, Gaignun, it's been a while!  Thanks for taking the time to update your team-building tool.


CHEER UP
I would be okay with it gaining some form of AoE.  2 range three-directions?  Should it affect the user, as well?

REFUTE
Its accuracy has been MA+55 since 1.39c, at the very least.  While it isn't exactly reliable, it *does* dispel everything!  Despite this, I'd be fine with a small accuracy increase, like +5.

BATTLE ORDERS AND PATHOS SPEECH
We just talked about it in Discord.  What would you think of MA+45% accuracy and 6 CT?  Unlike the old songs/dances, Short Charge can reduce the CT of these two skills; so, with these adjustments, you could have a 3 CT and 70%~ accuracy Battle Orders/Pathos Speech kicking around for your team, putting them on par with (or even better than) the old songs.  Mind you, the AI's low priority for using these skills hampers their usefulness on smaller maps.

EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.

+1 MOVE ON SAMURAI / NERF BIZEN BOAT
For a short period during 141 development, Samurai were at 8/10 MA due to receiving buffs in other areas.  However, some players disagreed with the MA nerf, and after some lengthy debating, their MA was brought back up.  Would you be fine with Bizen Boat if Samurai had their MA brought back down to 8/10 MA again, or do you feel like Bizen Boat itself would need to be nerfed instead/as well?

PEACEMAKER
I full-heartedly agree with you on this one.  I feel like both it *and* the Flare Gun don't need shield access.  They gained shield access because players wanted for shield access to be consistent for guns, but there wasn't much of an argument made for this change.  I would be fine with both of these weapons going back to being forced two-hands.

SPELLGUNS
Ultimately, we decided that it was their elemental property that made them so deadly, due to elemental strengthening being an extra multiplier that pushed their damage over the top.  Yes, you could've went White Robe to mitigate their damage, but the units that didn't suffered big time.  The Flare Gun is our compromise for keeping this kind of weapon in the game.  It's still capable of dealing great damage (especially when combined with MAU/Faith), and is a great choice for taking out the legion of low-Brave mages wandering about.


- Andrew
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on March 29, 2017, 01:55:28 pm
Quote from: Andrew on March 29, 2017, 01:44:15 pm
EXCALIBUR
The Genji Shield's +1 PA and Darkness immunity offsets the WP decrease, which still makes it great for Grand Cross funsies.  Yeah, you have more P-Ev because of the shield, but most Grand Cross units don't always need healing, and again, Darkness immunity FTW.  In essence, it's now the knight sword, holy-elemental version of the Giant Axe.


I'd like to clarify that Grand Cross will disregard your own S-EV unless you have Awareness. In other words, an attack on yourself will default to a back attack. So only 25% of the unit's C-EV plus the A-EV will count.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 30, 2017, 11:12:08 am
Thank you for the quick response as always, Andrew!

CHEER UP
A 3 direction AoE would be awesome, even if its JP cost must go up by ~50 to compensate.

REFUTE
Its accuracy dropped awhile ago, huh? +5% accuracy would be lovely if only to keep up the pace of matches. (Watching a Mediator spend 2~3 turns trying to remove a status ailment on a friendly unit is a little wearing.)

BATTLE SPEECH
MA+45% accuracy sounds OK with me. If it comes to pass that this accuracy boost enables extreme XA stacking strategies, we could even keep its accuracy low at MA+35%, but remove its CT.

EXCALIBUR
I see. Though it might no longer be the best GC weapon, I suppose it's not so bad, as you said.

SAMURAI BOAT
It depends on what we want, I suppose. Dropping Bizen Boat's multiplier nerfs Bizen Boat. Dropping Samurai's MA nerfs Samurai, but keeps Bizen Boat as the go-to powerhouse skill.  Seeing that Samurai took an HP hit this patch, I'm leaning toward the former option.

SPELLGUNS
You're certainly not wrong about the elemental strengthening. I just never felt that they were terribly powerful in their last form before being removed in spite of that (4 Range and lower raw damage than Stone Gun - before Pilgrimage kicks in, anyway). Oh well.  There is always Healing Gun.  (Even a hypothetical Demi or Demi 2 gun would be nice. This gun would have the ability to heal, deal damage, and be Counter Magicked as before, but wouldn't have the same runaway damage problem.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on April 06, 2017, 10:41:11 am
You were definitely onto something about Excalibur.  RavenOfRazgriz recently checked Arena out, and he gave us shit about this weapon, lol :P.  He suggested for it to go back to being 14 WP and forced two-hands, but have elemental strengthening be replaced by +1 Speed to make it easier for paladins and male mystic knights to get to the higher Speed levels, while still dealing okay damage.  Since Swift Plate now blocks Haste, this could be an interesting and effective way to buff Excalibur.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on April 06, 2017, 03:18:28 pm
I agree, +1 SP would make Excalibur a great weapon to use. It doesn't need the elemental strengthen, especially if grand cross gets the boot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CupOfOrangeJuice on July 03, 2017, 11:08:19 pm
Hey this might be a typo. But under "hawks eye" in the master guide it doesn't apply poison anymore and doesn't seem to do anything more than a standard attack that costs MP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 03, 2017, 11:22:45 pm
yeah there have been some adjustments. Hawks'eye in it's current state is unavoidable (sans projectile guard) two swordable, no ct, and can be boosted via elemental stuff. The (weapon attack) means you can pretty much use whatever weapon you want for it as will go by that weapon's formula and is not effected via brave status.

Poison is also more potent in it's current state as it also depletes both HP & MP and is no longer over written by regen. Your units have to actually cure it or be immune to poison. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 04, 2017, 12:40:09 am
How does that even work, by the way?

Do units affected by both Poison and Regen lose and recover the same amount of HP and MP at the end of their turn? In that event, do they lose or recover the HP and MP first?

Similarly, since Haste now no longer overwrites Slow, can units be affected by both Haste and Slow at the same time, and in that event do the effects of Haste and Slow combine to leave the affected unit's SP at its base value?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 04, 2017, 02:49:11 am
Quote from: Gaignun on July 04, 2017, 12:40:09 am
How does that even work, by the way?

Do units affected by both Poison and Regen lose and recover the same amount of HP and MP at the end of their turn? In that event, do they lose or recover the HP and MP first?

Similarly, since Haste now no longer overwrites Slow, can units be affected by both Haste and Slow at the same time, and in that event do the effects of Haste and Slow combine to leave the affected unit's SP at its base value?


I don't know the exact coding intricacies DW, Doku, or someone similar would have the better details.

But from my understanding is that they're not active at the same time. If a units has regen/haste & gets hit with poison/slow their status gets overwritten to become poison/slow & no longer regen/haste.  While Regen/Haste can no longer overwrite poison/slow for the reverse.

For example if a units gets hit with poison and then uses "nurse" that unit will only get the healing/defending part of nurse while regen doesn't activate.  Poison/Slow will overwrite Regen/Haste but not vice versa. 

I think it was partly done to avoid endless loops with units trading those abilities back&forth.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 04, 2017, 03:56:22 am
Thank you for the prompt response, Heroebal.

If that is the case, then Poison/Slow effectively disables Regen/Haste.  That's pretty powerful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on July 04, 2017, 04:28:23 pm
We did that because there wasn't proper counterplay involved. It was quite frankly getting annoying to be FORCED to use a team with either haste or slow or else you're screwed for example. I was getting tired of the haste/slow wars and poison literally only being useful as a turn-waster. Also, regen has been proven to be used extremely well on teams with high HP totals, or just in general because it's basically a free move-HP Up that doesn't require movement.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 05, 2017, 02:13:57 am
What counterplay are we expecting? For example, the AI will still spam Slow, and teams will still spend a turn healing it. However, those teams with haste will now spend two: One to heal slow, and another to reapply haste.  When faced against slow, the recommended counterstrategies now seem to become either running slow immunity as before, or dropping all haste spells to prevent yourself from running turn deficits.  The most substantive change to the metagame is therefore a buff to slow and a nerf to haste.  (I'm not complaining; I'm just curious about this patch.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 18, 2017, 07:10:34 pm
Here are the planned changes for 142.

• Absorb has been removed from weapons and clothes (except for Chameleon Robe, now known as Reaper's Robe). All absorb accessories (except for Cursed Ring) have a small evasion bonus.
• Elemental Strengthening has been redistributed on different robes, and elemental halving has been moved to clothing.
• Status immunities have also been redistributed due to the absorb changes heavily affecting accessories.
• Rods have been merged into staves. Some rods have been removed during the process.
• Attack UP/Magic Attack UP bonus has been lowered to 25%.
• Two Swords has a 15% damage penalty.
• All of the abilities that work with Two Swords will also work with Two Hands.
• Most Ninjatos and flails have gained Two Hands access.
• Talk Skill can be countered with Counter Magic. Finger Guard has been removed. Talk Skill accuracy is now based on Speed, with higher speed lowering the accuracy.
• Ninjutsu's -tons are now different from each other.
• Chrono Trigger and Regenerator can now dispel Slow and Poison, respectively.
• All abilities are now in multiples of 6, to calculate 1/3 of MP more easily.
ARCHER
• N/A

CHEMIST
• N/A

GEOMANCER
• N/A

LANCER
• N/A

MEDIATOR
• Gained sword access.

MIME
• N/A

MONK
• N/A

MYSTIC KNIGHT
• Gained ninja sword access.

NINJA
• Male: 24 --> 43 MP.
• Female: 25 --> 46 MP.

ORACLE
• Lost rod access.

PALADIN
• N/A

PRIEST
• N/A

SAMURAI
• N/A

SCHOLAR
• Lost rod access.

SQUIRE
• Lost rod access.
• Male: 10 --> 9 PA, and 6 --> 7 MA.
• Female: 8 --> 7 PA, and 8 --> 9 MA.

SUMMONER
• Lost rod access.

THIEF
• N/A

TIME MAGE
• N/A

WIZARD
• Gained staff access, but lost rod access.
ARCHER (SNIPE)
• Hawk's Eye: 15 --> 12 MP.
• Seal Evil: Hit_(Sp+60)% --> Hit_(Sp+45)% accuracy.
• Shield Break: Hit_([PA+WP]+55)% --> Hit_([PA+WP]+60)%, and 250 --> 200 JP.
• NEW --> (Movement) "Range +1": Increases the range of skills by 1.  Does not affect Attack, Item, Jump, 0-1/weapon range, or 3-direction skills.  300 JP.

CHEMIST (ITEM)
• X-Potion: 200 --> 150 JP.
• Ether: 40 --> 80 MP, 100 --> 150 JP.  Replaces Hi-Ether in function.
• Hi-Ether --> "Strength Tonic": Add Berserk+Haste+Regen, self+allies-only, 150 JP.
• Antidote: 100 --> 150 JP, but Dark+Poison removal --> Dark+Petrify+Poison removal.
• Soft --> "Light Curtain": Add Protect, 100 JP.
• Turtle Shell: Random-add Protect+Shell --> add Shell.

GEOMANCER (GEOMANCY)
• Attack UP: 33% --> 25% boosting.

LANCER (JUMP)
• Jump Range 5: 350 --> 300 JP.
• Jump Range 6: 500 --> 400 JP.
• Vertical Ignore: 350 --> 300 JP.

MEDIATOR (TALK SKILL)
  Received Counter Magic from Black Magic.
• Finger Guard: Removed from the game.
• Blackmail: Hit_(MA+45)% --> Hit_(60-Speed)% accuracy.
• Stall: Hit_(MA+45)% --> Hit_(55-Speed)% accuracy.
• Preach: Hit_(MA+75)% --> Hit_(85-Speed)% accuracy.
• Solution/Refute: Hit_(MA+60)% --> Hit_(70-Speed)% accuracy.
• Death Sentence: Hit_(MA+45)% --> Hit_(55-Speed)% accuracy.
• Insult/Mimic Daravon: Hit_(MA+50)% --> Hit_(60-Speed)% accuracy.
• Battle Orders/Pathos Speech: 7 --> 6 CT, and 15 --> 12 MP.

MONK (PUNCH ART)
• Chakra: 200 --> 250 JP.
• Chi Blast: 250 --> 300 JP.
• Secret Fist: Hit_(MA+65)% --> Hit_(MA+60)% accuracy, and 200 --> 150 JP.
• Spin Fist: 1 --> 0 Vertical, Dmg_(PAx9) --> Dmg_(PAx8), and 250 --> 300 JP.
• Stigma Magic: 150 --> 200 JP.
• Wave Fist: Became reflectable.

MYSTIC KNIGHT (SPELLBLADE)
• Overwhelm: 400 --> 300 JP.
• Amplified Raise: 24 --> 18 MP, and Heal(1)% --> Heal(21)%.
• Amplified Cure: 1 --> 2 Vertical, 3 --> 2 CT, 16 --> 12 MP, Heal_(PA*6) HealMP_(PA*6)/2) --> Heal_(PA*8) HealMP_((PA*8)/2), and no longer affects enemy targets.
• Amplified Dispel: 16 --> 12 MP, and Hit(PA+70)% --> Hit(PA+75)%.
• Shock: 4 --> 5 range, and 12 --> 18 MP.
• Spellbreaker: 1 --> 0 CT.
• Amplified Bio: 20 --> 12 MP, and DmgBrave_(PA*7) --> DmgBrave_(PA*8).
• Amplified Bolt: 8 --> 6 MP, and DmgBrave_(PA*7) --> DmgBrave_(PA*8).
• Amplified Ice: 20 --> 18 MP, and DmgBrave_(PA*9) --> DmgBrave_(PA*10).
• Amplified Ultima: 24 --> 18 MP, and DmgBrave_(PA*8) --> DmgBrave_(PA*9).
• Amplified Water: 12 --> 6 MP, and DmgBrave_(PA*7) --> DmgBrave_(PA*8).
• Miasma: 1 --> 2 Vertical, and Hit_(PA+60)% --> Hit_(PA+70)%.

NINJA (NINJUTSU)
• Two Swords: 500 --> 400 JP, and each attack now deals 15% less damage.  This does not count procs (such as Ultima Weapon's Amplified Ultima), just the attacks themselves.
• Kagesougi: 10 --> 12 MP.
• Houkouton: 15 --> 18 MP.
• Tsumazuku: Became weapon range, gained Two Swords access, and had its animation changed to work with Two Swords.
• Shuriken: Lost its Poison proc.
• Fuuton: 5 --> 2 range, 0 --> 1 AoE, 255 --> 3 Vertical, 12 --> 18 MP, and Dmg_UnFaith(PA*9) --> Dmg_UnFaith(PA*8).
• Suiton: 5 --> 3 range, and gained a 25% chance to proc Charm+Haste.
• Raiton: 5 --> 0 range, 0 --> 2 AoE, 0 --> 1 Vertical, 12 --> 18 MP, Dmg_UnFaith(PA*9) --> Dmg_UnFaith(PA*7), affects user, no Reflect, and 150 --> 200 JP.

ORACLE (YIN YANG MAGIC)
• Defense UP: 400 --> 300 JP.
• Spell Absorb: 2 --> 0 MP.
• Life Drain: 8 --> 6 MP.
• Pray Faith: 16 --> 12 MP.
• Doubt Faith: 5 --> 6 range, and 16 --> 6 MP.
• Zombie: 20 --> 18 MP.
• Blind Rage: 16 --> 12 MP.
• Beguile: 5 --> 4 Range, 5 --> 4 CT, and 20 --> 18 MP.
• Dispel Magic: 5 --> 3 Range, 0 --> 2 Vertical, 20 --> 12 MP, and 200 --> 150 JP.
• Paralyze: 5 --> 4 Range, and 20 --> 24 MP.
• Sleep: 5 --> 4 Range, and 24 --> 30 MP.
• Petrify: 5 --> 4 Range, 5 --> 4 CT, and 16 --> 18 MP.

PALADIN (CHIVALRY)
• Equip Armor: Now allows the usage of headbands.
• Consecration: Removed from the game.
Nurse: 12 --> 6 MP, but lost Defending.
• Reraise: 255 --> 3 Vertical, and 1 --> 4 CT.
• Divine Strike: 18 --> 12 MP.
• Hallowed Strike: 18 --> 6 MP.

PRIEST (WHITE MAGIC)
• Magic Defense UP: 400 --> 300 JP.
• Cure/Cure 2: 10 --> 12 MP.
• Cure 3: 16 --> 24 MP.
• Cure 4: 16 --> 18 MP.
• Raise: 15 --> 24 MP.
• Raise 2: 25 --> 36 MP.
• Protect/Shell: 20 --> 18 MP.
• Wall: 25 --> 24 MP.

SAMURAI (DRAW OUT)
• Kikuichimonji: 16 --> 18 MP.
• Kiyomori: 8 --> 12 MP.
• Masamune: 8 --> 6 MP.
• Two Hands: 400 --> 300 JP, and all of the skills that are Two Swords-able are now also Two Hands-able.  Thanks, Pride!

SCHOLAR (LORE)
Received Holy from Black Magic.
• Regenerator: If the user is poisoned, then it will dispel Poison instead of doing nothing.  When the user does not have Poison, then it will apply Regen, per the usual.  It will not do both in the same turn.
• Prism Tribute: 20 --> 18 MP.
• Death: Moved to Black Magic.
• Tornado: 25 --> 24 MP.
• Quake: 25 --> 24 MP.
• Flare: 40 --> 36 MP.

SQUIRE (GUTS)
• Counter Tackle: 100 --> 50 JP.
• Defend: It's now a Movement skill, rather than a Support skill.
• Equip Weapon: 300 --> 250 JP.
• Bullrush: Gained a 100% chance to dispel Regen.
• Throw Stone: 255 --> 4 Vertical.
• Cheer Up: 1 --> 0 Vertical, and 6 --> 12 MP.
• Ultima: Dmg_(MA*9) --> Dmg_(MA*10).
• NEW --> "Throw Grime": 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vertical, Hit_(PA+50)%, adds Oil, C+CC, 150 JP.
• NEW --> "Throw Sand": 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vertical, Hit_(PA+60)%, adds Darkness+Slow, C+CC, 100 JP.

SUMMONER (SUMMON MAGIC)
• 1/3 of MP: 200 --> 100 JP.
• Moogle: 20 --> 24 MP.
• Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit: 2 --> 1 Vertical, 4 --> 2 CT, 28 --> 24 MP, but become evadable.
• Leviathan: 28 --> 24 MP.
• Titan: 32 --> 30 MP.
• Fairy: 32 --> 30 MP.
• Silf: 2 --> 1 Vertical, 4 --> 2 CT, 32 --> 30 MP, but become evadable.
• Bahamut: 32 --> 36 MP.
• Odin: 28 --> 24 MP.
• Cyclops: 28 --> 24 MP.
• Zodiac: 40 --> 36 MP, and F_(MAx8) --> F_(MAx9) HP damage.

THIEF (STEAL)
• Roulette: 3 --> 255 Vertical, and 12 --> 0 MP.
• Gil Toss: 3 --> 4 Range, and 200 --> 100 JP.
• Quickening: 10 --> 12 MP.
• Steal Weapon: Hit_(Sp+40)% --> Hit_(Sp+50)%.
• Speed Ruin: Hit_(PA+100)% --> Hit_(PA+70)% accuracy.
• Magic Ruin: 200 --> 100 JP.
• Power Ruin: 3 --> 4 Range, 18 --> 0 MP, 200 --> 150 JP, and damage amounts will now correctly display.
• NEW --> "Sucker Punch": 1 range, 0 AoE, 2 vertical, 0 CT, 0 MP, non-elemental, avoidable, Dmg_Brave(Sp*12), C+CC, 150 JP.

TIME MAGE (TIME MAGIC)
• Chrono Trigger: If the user is slow, then it will dispel Slow instead of doing nothing.  When the user does not have Slow, then it will apply Haste, per the usual.  It will not do both in the same turn.
• Counter Comet: 80 --> 100 HP damage.  Now matches Comet!  :O
• Haste 2: 22 --> 18 MP.
• Slow 2: 22 --> 18 MP.
• Stop: 20 --> 24 MP.
• Don't Move: 10 --> 12 MP.
• Comet: 10 --> 18 MP.
• Balance: 15 --> 12 MP.
• Demi 2: Hit_Faith(MA+75%) --> Hit_Faith(MA+80)% accuracy.
• NEW --> "Meteorain": 3 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vertical, 6 CT, 24 MP, 100 static damage, unavoidable, yes Reflect, CC+CM, 200 JP.

WIZARD (BLACK MAGIC)
Received Death from Lore.
• Counter Magic: Now affects all talk skills (except for Battle Orders and Pathos Speech), and moved to Talk Skill.
• Magic Attack UP: 33% --> 25% boosting.
• Nether Fire: 22 --> 18 MP, and 100 --> 150 JP.
• Fire 2: 5 --> 4 CT, 26 --> 24 MP, and 150 --> 200 JP.
• Bolt: 14 --> 12 MP.
• Nether Bolt: 18 --> 12 MP, and 100 --> 150 JP.
• Bolt 2: 4 --> 3 CT, 22 --> 18 MP, and 150 --> 200 JP.
• Nether Ice: 22 --> 18 MP, and 100 --> 150 JP.
• Ice 2: 5 --> 4 CT, 26 --> 24 MP, and 150 --> 200 JP.
• Water: 22 --> 18 MP.
• Nether Water: 3 --> 7 Vertical, 22 --> 12 MP, and 100 --> 150 JP.
• Water 2: 4 --> 5 Vertical, 5 --> 4 CT, 26 --> 18 MP, and 150 --> 200 JP.
• Poison: 2 --> 1 AoE.
• Holy: 400 --> 300 JP, and moved to Lore.
• Death: 24 --> 30 MP.
AXES
• Axecalipur: 10% --> 0% W-Ev, but 25% --> 33% proc chance.
• Gambler's Axe: 10 --> 9 WP.
• Tomahawk: 9 --> 10 WP.
• NEW --> "Hydraxe": 12 WP, 30% W-Ev, 1 range, Ice-elemental, yes Two Hands, no Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Light Axe": 9 WP, 20% W-Ev, 1 range, Holy-elemental, 50% cast "Dia" upon striking, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Slasher": 12 WP, 20% W-Ev, 1 range, 1 PA, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.

BAGS
• N/A

BOOKS
• Monster Dict: 15% --> 20% W-Ev, and its proc now uses Power Ruin's animation.  Also, it will properly display the PA/MA damage.
• Necronomicon: 15% --> 20% W-Ev.
• Papyrus Plate: 15% --> 25% W-Ev.
• Vampire Diary: 15% --> 20% W-Ev.
• NEW --> "Battle Dict": 12 WP, 30% W-Ev, 3 range, 3 PA, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.

CROSSBOWS
• Atheist Bow: 10 --> 11 WP.
• Bow Gun: 0% --> 20% W-Ev.
• Crude Bow: 9 --> 10 WP.
• El Bow --> "Hunting Bow": 10 WP, 10% W-Ev, 4 range, 33% cast: Dmg_(WeaponAttack), no Two Hands, no Two Swords.
• Provoke Bow: 0% --> 10% W-Ev.

FISTS
• N/A

FLAILS
  All flails gained Two Hands access.
• Scorpion Tail: 25% --> 33% proc chance.
• Mage Crusher: 67% --> 50% proc chance.
• Vesper: 9 --> 10 WP.

GUNS
• Flare Gun: 4 --> 5 range.
• Romanda Gun: 8 --> 7 range.
• NEW --> "Quicksilver": 11 WP, 0% W-Ev, 5 range, Lightning-elemental, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Valiant": 8 WP, 0% W-Ev, 5 range, damages MP instead of HP, unavoidable, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.

KATANA
• Asura: 15% --> 5% W-Ev, and absorb Fire --> initial Reraise.
• Bizen Boat: 10 --> 8 WP, and 2 PA --> 50% cast: Dmg_(CasMaxHP-CasCurHP), Hit_(100%).  Basically, new Moonlight.
• Chirijiraden: 15% --> 5% W-Ev.
• Heaven's Cloud: 10 --> 9 WP, but 50% --> 67% proc chance.
• Kikuichimonji: 17 --> 15 WP, and 15% --> 25% W-Ev.
• Kotetsu: 9 --> 12 WP, but lost its Dark strengthening.
• Muramasa: 10 --> 12 WP.

KNIGHT SWORDS
• Excalibur: 20% --> 0% W-Ev.
• NEW --> "Enhancer": 13 WP, 20% W-Ev, 1 range, 3 MA, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.

KNIVES
• Air Knife: 15% --> 10% W-Ev and gained Two Hands access.
• Dual Cutters: Gained Two Hands access.
• Katar: Removed from the game.
• Orichalcum: 15% --> 0% W-Ev, but gained 1 PA.  Became Super Katar, basically.
• Platina Dagger: 15% --> 10% W-Ev.
• Repel Knife: 15% --> 0% W-Ev.
• Toy Knife: 20% --> 30% W-Ev, became evadable, and became non-elemental.  This is due to a technical error that may get fixed in the future.
• Zorlin Shape: 10% --> 15% W-Ev, and strengthen Dark+Fire --> strengthen Fire+Water.

LONGBOWS
• Ice Bow: 12 --> 13 WP.
• Windslash Bow: 10 --> 15% W-Ev, and 20 --> 25% proc chance.

NINJA SWORDS
• Hidden Knife: Removed from the game, due to Mystic Knights gaining ninja sword access.  Its effect was added to a new spear, "Kain's Lance", which is an improved version of it, designed mostly for mages to benefit from.
• Iga Knife: Gained Two Hands access.
• Koga Knife: Gained Two Hands access.
• Ninja Edge: Gained Two Hands access.
• Ninja Knife: 5% --> 10% W-Ev, gained Two Hands access, and name changed to "Orochi" to prevent confusion between it and Ninja Edge.
• Sasuke Knife: 13 --> 15 WP, and became forced two-hands.
• Short Edge: Gained Two Hands access.
• Spell Edge: Gained Two Hands access.

POLES
• Gokuu Rod: 12 --> 10 WP, but gained Two Hands access.
• Null Pointer: Gained Two Hands access.

RODS
• Faith Rod: Converted to a staff.
• Flame Rod: Converted to a staff.
• Ice Rod: Converted to a staff.
• Meteor Rod: Converted to a staff.
• Poison Rod: Removed from the game.
• Prismatic Rod: Removed from the game.
• Thunder Rod: Converted to a staff.

SPEARS
• Demon Spear: Gained 1 Move.
• Heavy Spear: 15% --> 10% W-Ev, 25% --> 33% proc chance, and gained Two Hands access.
• Holy Lance: Removed from the game.
• Javelin: 10 --> 15% W-Ev.
• Vaulting Lance: 9 --> 10 WP.
• NEW --> "Kain's Lance": 8 WP, 0% W-Ev, 2 range, +2 MA, always Transparent, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.

STAVES
• Battle Staff: Gained Critical immunity.
• Black Staff: 8 --> 9 WP, and 10% --> 15% W-Ev.
• Mace of Zeus: Removed from the game.
• Rune Staff: 50% --> 67% proc chance.
• Slumber Staff: 50% --> 67% proc chance.
• White Staff: 10 --> 9 WP, 20% --> 25% proc chance, and now procs Holy instead of Bizen Boat.
• NEW --> "Nirvana": 8 WP, 10% W-Ev, 1 range, initial Faith, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Flame Staff: 10 WP, 10% W-Ev, 1 range, Fire-elemental, 50% cast "Nether Fire" upon striking, Fire-strengthening, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Ice Staff": 8 WP, 10% W-Ev, 1 range, Ice-elemental, 50% cast "Nether Ice" upon striking, Ice-strengthening, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Meteor Staff": 8 WP, 0% W-Ev, 1 range, 33% cast "Meteor" (150 unmitigatable, unavoidable damage), yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.
• NEW --> "Thunder Staff": 9 WP, 10% W-Ev, 1 range, Lightning-elemental, 67% cast "Nether Bolt" upon striking, Lightning-strengthening, yes Two Hands, yes Two Swords.

SWORDS
• Coral Sword: 10 --> 15% W-Ev, and gained Two Hands access, but lost its Water absorb.
• Diamond Sword: 12 --> 13 WP, and 50% --> 67% proc chance.
• Ice Brand: 12 --> 13 WP.
• Lionheart: 10% --> 0% W-Ev.
• Moonlight: Removed from the game, due to its effect replacing Bizen Boat's 2 PA.
• Phoenix Blade --> "Flame Sabre": 11 WP, 10% W-Ev, 1 range, Fire-elemental, 1 PA, 1 MA, 33% chance to proc "Fire" (Black Magic) upon striking, no Two Hands, no Two Swords.
• Platinum Sword: 10% --> 20% W-Ev.
• Thunder Blade: 13 --> 14 WP.
SHIELDS
• Diamond Shield: 25% --> 15% P-Ev, and 5% --> 15% M-Ev.
• Gory Plate: 10% --> 15% P-Ev, and 10% --> 15% M-Ev.
• Kaiser Plate: 15% P-Ev --> 5% P-Ev, 15% M-Ev --> 10% M-Ev, but Earth+Ice+Wind strengthening --> Dark+Earth+Ice+Wind strengthening.
• Platina Shield: 5% --> 15% P-Ev, and 25% --> 15% M-Ev.
• Round Shield: 20% --> 15% P-Ev, and 10% --> 15% M-Ev.
• Secular Shield: Critical+Faith immunity --> Critical+Dead+Death Sentence+Faith immunity.
• Swift Plate: Gained Stop immunity.

ARMOR
• Carabini Mail/Platina Armor: 120 --> 125 HP.
• Crystal Armor: 120 --> 105 HP, and Charm+Slow+Undead --> Berserk+Charm+Undead immunity.
• Diamond Armor: 125 --> 115 HP, and Berserk+Don't Move --> Don't Act+Don't Move immunity.
• Gold Armor: 115 --> 125 HP, and Dead+Death Sentence+Oil+Petrify --> Oil+Petrify+Sleep immunity.
• Reflect Mail: 150 --> 155 HP, and gained Critical immunity.
• NEW --> "Mythril Armor": 145 HP, and 20 MP.

CLOTHES
• Black Costume: 100 --> 90 HP, and absorb Dark+Fire --> half Dark+Water and null Lightning.
• Mirage Vest: 20 --> 10 MP, and absorb Earth+Holy--> half Earth+Fire and null Water.
• Rubber Costume: 100 --> 80 HP, 10 --> 20 MP, and absorb Lightning+Water --> half Lightning+Holy and null Wind.
• Santa Outfit: 90 --> 80 HP, and absorb Ice+Wind --> half Ice+Wind and null Dark.
• NEW --> "Judo Outfit": 60 HP, 15 MP, and grants initial Innocent.
• NEW --> "Leather Vest": 95 HP, 15 MP, 1 PA, and 1 MA.

HATS
• Flash Hat: Half Earth+Water+Wind --> half Fire+Wind and null Ice.
• Golden Hairpin: 70 --> 60 HP, 35 -- > 30 MP, and half Dark+Holy --> half Earth+Holy and null Fire.
• Triangle Hat: 80 --> 70 HP, 10 --> 20 MP, lost 1 MA, and Innocent immunity --> half Dark+Lightning and null Earth.
• NEW --> "Ritual Hat": 80 HP, 25 MP, 1 PA, and 1 MA.
• NEW --> "Red Hood": 80 HP, 10 MP, half Ice+Water, and null Holy.

HEADBANDS
• N/A

HELMETS
• Barbuta/Circlet: 115 --> 120 HP.
• Crystal Helmet: 110 --> 100 HP.
• Diamond Helmet: Lost its initial Reraise, but gained Sleep immunity.
• Gold Helmet: 110 --> 105 HP, and Darkness+Frog+Sleep --> Berserk+Darkness+Frog+Petrify immunity.
• Grand Helmet: 150 --> 160 HP, but lost initial Float.
• Platina Helmet: 115 --> 95 HP, but gained Slow immunity.

ROBES
• Angel Robe --> "Gaia Robe": 70 HP, 40 MP, and strengthen Earth+Ice.
• Black Robe: 70 --> 60 HP, 30 --> 50 MP, and strengthen Fire+Ice+Lightning --> strengthen Fire+Lightning.
• Chameleon Robe: Name changed to "Reaper's Robe" due to popular demand.
• Cultist Robe: Strengthen Dark+Holy --> strengthen Holy+Water.
• White Robe: 45 --> 60 MP, and half Fire+Ice+Lightning --> initial Reraise.
• NEW --> "Knight Robe": 35 HP, 55 MP, and 2 PA.
• NEW --> "Magus Robe": 80 HP, 30 MP, and strengthen Dark+Wind.
• NEW --> "Red Robe": 25 HP, 30 MP, and 3 MA.

ACCESSORIES
• Dracula Mantle: 15% --> 20% P-Ev, 10% --> 15% M-Ev, and Oil+Poison immunity --> Poison+Slow immunity.
• Elven Mantle: Don't Move+Undead --> Darkness+Don't Move immunity.
• Small Mantle: 10% --> 15% P-Ev, 15% --> 20% M-Ev, and Frog+Slow immunity --> Frog+Sleep immunity.
• Vanish Mantle: 15% --> 10% P-Ev, 15% --> 10% M-Ev, and Darkness --> Berserk immunity.
• Wizard Mantle: 15% --> 10% P-Ev, 15% --> 10% M-Ev, and Don't Act immunity --> Don't Act+Oil immunity.
• Aqua Treks: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, and 0% --> 15% M-Ev, and lost its Don't Move+Petrify immunities, but gained Charm immunity.
• Sandstorm Treks: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, and 0% --> 15% M-Ev, but lost its Sleep immunity.
• Hyper Wrist: Gained Innocent immunity.
• Defense Ring --> "Tough Ring": 10% P-Ev, 15% M-Ev, 1 PA, 1 MA, and absorb Lightning.
• Magic Ring: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, and 0% --> 15% M-Ev, but Charm+Sleep immunity --> Undead immunity.
• Reflect Ring: Gained 1 PA, but lost its Berserk immunity.
• Defense Armlet: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, 0% --> 15% M-Ev, and Don't Act+Don't Move --> Petrify immunity.
• Diamond Armlet: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, and 0% --> 15% M-Ev, but lost its 1 PA+MA bonuses.
• Jade Armlet: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, 0% --> 15% M-Ev, and lost its Petrify+Stop immunities, but gained 1 MA.
• N-Kai Armlet: 0% --> 10% P-Ev, 0% --> 15% M-Ev, and lost its Charm+Undead immunities, but gained Don't Move immunity.
• Darkness: Its AI priority has been changed from -39.06% to -50%.  AKA, the AI will use it slightly more often than before, but still only against units with P-Ev skills (so, pretty much every unit unless they have Concentrate/always Transparent).
• Defending: Its AI priority has been changed from 0% to 39.06%.  AKA, the AI will actually use it (Defend, the Movement skill), and very often.
• Oil: Its AI priority has been changed from -5.47% to -39.06%.  AKA, they will use Oil much more often than before.
• 011 (S) Igros Castle, Office: Repositioned the units so they're farther apart, and the patio now features a double door archway with each door being two-panels wide.
• 025 (S) Yardow Fort City: The wooden tower in the north-eastern corner of the map has been replaced with flat terrain.
• 035 (M) Zaland Fort City: Removed the wall that restricted access to the city, and obstructed the player's line-of-sight.  The gate top and one of the rooftops are now easier to access.  The teams now start in opposite corners.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on February 14, 2018, 04:20:51 am
As you may know by now, we have been discussing mostly over Discord about balance. I wanted to (re)ignite some discussion here as well, because I realize instant messaging is not something everyone prefers to and because of this, the forums shouldn't be left out of it like they have been for the past year or so. I feel that the input here is just as valuable as Discord's.

Now, where to start... I think I will just go with what's coming in mind for now. Will do a more organized post later because there's so much info scattered in the chat, I'm not searching for this right now.

The latest talk we've had is to just do away with Mimes completely.

There seems to be agreement about this so far. Being something recent, it's not concrete and still up for discussion. Here are the arguments I can think of in favor of their removal. Let me know if I missed anything.


- Mimes make everything that's unbalanced even more unbalanced. Slight unbalance is only a minor problem. To some, it's even part of the fun to dig for these minor imbalances and take a slight advantage over the competition, and there's nothing wrong with that. But where it gets wrong is when a Mime can just be inserted and amplify these imbalances, resulting in a large increase in wins.

- They are buggy. These bugs are due to the changes they received in 139c, an attempt to give them some variety, and not just a cheap way to insert a party member. Though it does make the player have to put more effort into creating a Mime, it's really not that much more effort. They are ultimately the same, but even stronger than before, but more importantly, they may not behave as expected due to these bugs. When you have to think of how to set them up to get around bugs (that we don't know how to fix by the way, otherwise I wouldn't be mentioning it), something's not right...

- They bypass the ability/weapon limit rule. It's something more obvious, but also important and I don't know why we consider it tolerable. An ability that should only be used 2 times can be used up to 6 times! That's just wrong, no matter how you look at it. Weapon mimicry can be just as bad if set up properly.


Female Mystic Knight gets replaced with Assassin.

To anyone familiar with the Mystic Knight class, it's known that female Mystic Knights aren't exactly good at using their own skillset due to it being based on PA. Better just use a male to churn out big damage with the elemental attacks. As for the rest of the skillset, even if it was based on MA or something else, it would hardly matter. While this could be remedied by, for example, basing the power of Spellblade on both PA and MA, we think it's better to just turn them into something different. This hasn't been talked about in a while, but here is a picture that summarizes everything. Credit to A.J. (Simmon) for the idea, and many others for helping balancing it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/267448630716137485/375356226634252294/Assassin.png

(Getting sleepy, took longer than I thought to type up the Mime arguments. Will add more tomorrow if I have time.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Zotis on July 04, 2018, 12:55:42 am
I'd rather keep Mimes and just nerf them if they're too OP.  Maybe go back to reducing their equipment options like they used to be.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 31, 2018, 02:26:15 pm
For those who haven't been keeping up, be sure to check out the changelogs. Mimes are still around and are most likely here to stay. At least, a lot more than what my previous post was indicating.

Speaking of which, there's a good probability of a tournament coming soon that will revolve around Mimes. In anticipation of this, a minor update will come to adjust Mimes a bit.

- No more shields, but C-EV raised back to 30. This reverts changes all the way back to version 139.
- Base MP is almost doubled, because they now consume MP and desperately need more.
- Base PA and MA multipliers increased to 140, which is 11 for male and female, respectively.
- Also, Raiton will no longer hit the caster. This fixes the part where you are forced to absorb it to use it effectively, which makes no sense, especially for the Ninja class.