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Arena Monster Concepts

Started by Eternal248, May 18, 2012, 09:50:35 am

Barren

I think that the Regen effect should hurt an undead. And poison should heal an undead. makes sense when you think about it
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

The Damned

(Ugh. Still didn't get around to doing that other post yet.)

Admittedly, I just kinda skipped to the initial point in that video that Dynablade pointed out last night. Looking it from the beginning up until about 13 minutes in, that's literally the first time I've seen an Undead unit with Reraise get up. Ever.

As Xifanie said, it could just be hiding the counter, but something seems...screwy with that, especially since the player didn't know how or why his Ninja had permanent Reraise in the first place; then again, that player didn't seem to know nearly as much as they thought they did.... As such, it's entirely possible that whoever did that patch accidentally changed the interaction of those two statuses; also possible that I and others were just really unlucky and that Reraise merely lowers the Undead chance of getting back up, but doesn't lower it to 0%.

Regardless, my point is still valid in that Reraise does nothing to help the Undead.

Quote from: Eternal248 on May 19, 2012, 09:28:49 am
@Damned: In regards to the monsters with Move on Lava, it's mostly a small detail so they don't get screwed should they ever battle at Bervenia. As for the BMG, I haven't read it in ages. :P

[Insert Monster Stuff here.]


I'm aware that you were doing it for Volcano's sake. I was just saying that a) it seems weird and b) you shouldn't be worrying about that map, especially when you're still giving out Cannot Enter Water, since the point of that map is to screw people over.

1. Chocobos: Makes sense. Just difficult to tell considering nothing has an MP cost yet. Related to that, I don't think anyone would be adverse to you just giving them innate Move-MP Up instead, especially since no other monster has it.


2. Goblins: Yes, I figured as much. I was just saying that realizing that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable with what I was (attempting) to "address". Thanks for the clarification though.


3. Bombs: Thanks for the Spark clarification.


4. Panthers: Ah, is that specifically why? Are we aware which monsters do not have water-moving sprites?


5. Mindflayers: Auto-Potion on something not immune to Undead seems a bit troublesome, though not nearly as much as Counter Magic would be, so I suppose it's better. I share a similarly ambivalent sentiment with regards to Wither affecting Speed, but I suppose that's better than both -MA and -PA, especially if you mean it would cause Slow rather than -Sp.


6. Skeletons: Sure, sounds like a plan I suppose. Still doesn't answer my question about Kill (or Wake the Dead), but I was expecting you to answer everything at once to be honest.


7. Ghosts: Yeah, Undead teams currently being crap (due to Raise 2 and not being able to dodge that or Items) was why I asked about the Map-wide effect. Also, while I am generally pleased with your choice in status immunities, it only just now occurred to me that Ghosts (or Skeletons) should perhaps be immune to Petrify lest they both become Seal Evil fodder. It would make more sense for Ghost given the dubious nature of Silence with regards to monsters (which you still haven't explained) and given their ethereal nature. This even though they're also already immune to Consecration due to their immunity to Death as well.


8. Cockatrices: Pretty sure that Float hasn't been weak to Wind in a while. If it still is, then it really needs to pointed out in the Master Guide. That said, Gale still "makes sense" with it.


9. Treants: Okay, I see.


10. Minotaurs: Counter would be less obnoxious than Hamedo, even if Chocobos already have it. However, if you're so adamant about monsters not sharing Reactions, then just give Minoataurs Projectile Guard or even (nerfed) Blade Grasp. Both are a lot less irksome than Hamedo and are yet still worthy of tanks.

As for Enmity, I see. That's...interesting. Not entirely sure the AI will use it if only targets the enemy, though.


11. Malboros: I am aware of that. I merely meant that the mere potential for AoE 2 Sleep is something to wary of, which is why I still so stupid for my initial plans for Mesmerizing Lights. Please don't fall into that same trap.


12. Dragons: Sure, why not. I've yet to see a 100% Knockback attack work as it should, though.


Quote from: Barren on May 19, 2012, 10:52:04 am
I think that the Regen effect should hurt an undead. And poison should heal an undead. makes sense when you think about it


Rather arguable about how much "sense" it makes, even though it would be consistent with Undead taking damage from healing otherwise, which is why I'm guessing you're suggesting it.

However, from both "flavor" standpoint and a mechanic one that change is kinda dubious. Flavor-wise, it could be argued that Poison should rightly further the decay that Undead obviously represents and that Regen should heal them because it still keeps them together and lets them keep getting back up. Mechanically, it becomes uncertain whether the AI would Poison itself when Undead solely to heal itself considering that Poison would otherwise be a negative status. It similarly might still Regen itself.

If you (or someone else) could prove that the mechanic aspect won't be an issue, then perhaps it would be worth doing. Of course, given that would necessitate coding that to be possible in the first place....

Either way, I'm pretty neutral on the issue.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

iamBQB

With the return of Monsters, will the squire ability Monster Skill see a return? Or is it just not workable even if you modify it? Seems like this skill would have a lot of potential depending on how easy it is to mess with it.

Quick question about bombs, will they have absorb fire?

There seems to be a desire to make use out of Undead units and to build some synergy from them here, if that's the case I'd suggest having an undead monster capable of buffing the undead. The Ghost is already partially filling this role, so I'd say commit to it fully and ditch the add undead skills or add them to another monster. I notice Ghouls aren't on your list. Instead give the ghost a Dark AoE for healing and perhaps something that can raise PA/MA only for zombies and something to add haste/something else beneficial. While it may make sense thematically for the undead to inflict undead on their enemies, any team built with an undead focus will not be the best equipped to kill undead. It will create a situation where teams will have to include units with Raise 2 and Cure's to do damage which really shouldn't be the way an undead team fights. If there is a way to include charm with zombie it might work out smoother, though may make the move a tad overpowered.

One last little comment about undead units that doesn't really belong in this thread, but sort of goes with what I'm saying above. I feel as though a 100% chance of rising again from death when the timer hits 0 is a worthy trade off for not being able to raise your units in any other way. As long as units don't rez with full health it shouldn't be exploitable, as they'd still resurrect far less often than a team with a simple Phoenix down, and be easily brought down by the enemy team if it holds an advantage. It just seems to me that as it is now, even with an attempt to make undead units more attractive of an option, that harsh death issue is going to keep them underused.

The Damned

(Okay, so now that I've mostly gotten over feeling like a complete idiot about that obvious solution to Cursed Ring.)

First and foremost, let me just admit that I'm not entirely certain how I feel about allowing Undead monsters in general, especially since we could substitute them "easily"--ignoring the debate over what to substitute in for them--non-undead monsters. Still, them becoming immune to Crystal & Treasure and Eternal apparently eschewing any and all elemental relations does make me feel quite "better" about them; "ironically", without the Crystal & Treasure immunity, I felt they would be too much of a burden to end up seeing use if they weren't hideously overpowered and now with it I think they might have it "easier" than other monsters, Raise 2 and Seal Evil aside.

That said, what I'm actually posting in here about is something I've been thinking about ever since I responded to Raven's post about monsters being linear about a day or so ago. While I do believe everything I replied to him about with regards to that, including using it as a "testing ground" and wanting to see Blue Mage potentially pop up in ARENA once all the base jobs are "done" with, I couldn't help but think of perhaps combining things.

As such, I came up with the following idea that, while I don't "prefer" it over monsters, I'm at least somewhat humoring:


Using pokeytax's RAD 3, would it perhaps be better to have monsters represented by humans--hereafter referred to as "Mascot" ala the Final Fantasy X-2 dressphere rather than Blue Mage--with monstrous abilities rather than actual monsters with those same abilities?


It both at once gets over the problem of linearity that Raven speaks of and puts forth a valid use to all that job space on the job wheel; now that I think about it, though, I'm not even sure if ARENA is "bond" to the job wheel, which might make needing to use RAD 3 a moot point.

Still, it's not like it's all sunshine and roses. Given my fondness of lists, I'll just list the pros and cons that I'm currently thinking of:


Pros:
+ Gets over Raven's valid claim of monsters being linear to point of possible being a problem by allowing the "Hume" "monster", the "Mascot", to use human Secondaries from the baseline 19 (since Mime has none) jobs without causing any weird, potentially game-crashing glitches or animations.

+ Similarly allows "monsters" a hell of a lot more flexibility as Mascots can interact with status and elements a lot more interchangeably since they could now equip at least some equipment rather none at all.

+ Similarly allows "monsters" unprecedented RSM-flexibility since, like human Skill Sets and equipment, Mascots would also be able to equip Reactions, Supports and Movements.

+ No need for Monster Talk since Mascots are human, so people using Talk Skill as their secondary without Monster Talk as their (very limited) Support don't end up getting randomly screwed over.

+ Mascots are able to take gender/sex still, which means that Steal Heart doesn't get an arguably unneeded boost by suddenly being able to universally affect 16 new units.

+ Mascots' humanity means its theoretically easier to try to determine their stat growth versus other humans.

+ Mascots don't have to be semi-arbitrarily bound by Can't Enter Water for graphical reasons.

+ Makes/keeps monsters elementally neutral, which is what Eternal was apparently aiming for. (Or, at least, he hasn't mentioned anything about wanting the monsters he drafted up to Absorb or be Weak to anything.)


Cons:
- The first one that pops into mind is that, if RAD 3 is indeed needed, then that still leaves one monster out since there's "only" 35 spaces in it. That means one monster ends up getting cut entirely; at this point you could probably just combine Ghost and Skeleton though, partly because of innate MP Switch needing to die if monsters become "human".

- Speaking of those two classes, though, another disadvantage of Mascot is that monsters won't generally be allowed their diverse innates that they "need" to help them better stand out (and be less inferior to humans' free-flowing diversity). Similarly, the RSM aspect becomes a bit hazy with that many jobs. Do Mascots get what were their proposed innates as RSMs even if they're (invariably) repeats? Do some Mascots get innates, such as the Skeleton/Ghost/Undead Mascot (Always: Undead), the Bomb Mascot (Always: Float) and the Ahriman & Juravis Mascot (Fly), while the others don't?

- Graphically, Mascots have the problem of either needing 15-30 new-ish human sprites or looking all the same when there isn't even a Blue Mage sprite still since human sprites and monster sprites are so very different (as Kagebunji has informed me). So even if classes are properly named, things stand the chance to become very visually confusing if there are quite a few Mascots on the field and they all the same sprite (or few sprites, let's say 3). This when things can already become quite confusing at times with the sex-different, sprite-different human classes.

- No need for Monster Talk means that it needs to finally die, though whether that's "bad" is quite arguable. It's under Con for now simply because it means that the Monster Talk that has been lingering there for more than a year just ended up becoming ultimately worthless.

- It will be rather difficult to determine what equipment each monster Mascot should get since giving them access to everything would likely be bad. Some things are "obvious", like allowing them all Accessories, but beyond that, things get...hazy. Bull Demon Mascots obviously gets Axes, but should Bomb Mascosts get Ninja Blades? Do Chocobo Mascots get to wear Armor? Why or why not?

- Finally, generating stats for them might ultimately be more difficult given not only the innate and equipment issues, but also the fact you suddenly have to become aware of how human Secondaries and RSMs interact with monster abilities. This awareness would be focused on the interaction of human abilities with monster ones coming from the same unit. Obviously a Bomb Mascot with Dragon Spirit & Self-Destruct, even without Equip Armor & Move-HP Up, is probably egregiously abusive. However, does an Ahriman Mascot become overpowered if it takes advantage of Muramasa, Counter and Despair?


Just food for thought, especially since this is rather off the top of my head. I'm personally fine with all three current possible outcomes with regards to monsters: regular monsters or "Mascots" or no monsters at all.

@TL;DR: Monsters as human "Mascots" as a potential alternative, using pokeytax's RAD 3 if need be. Pros are mainly flexibility; cons are mainly the struggle to find that flexibility and how it isn't going to be an "easy" fix, instead possibly being a more complex alternative than just allowing normal monsters.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

I'm more worried about how buggy it is, which is why I haven't bothered with ALMA yet.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

RavenOfRazgriz

Don't do anything that requires ALMA or RAD, personally. Pointless risk of hella bugs for features that will be a nightmare to try and roll back.  Fuck no, sorry.

Will comment on monster shit later.  Re: Undead, see my post in the HUMAN discussion.  Make Cursed Ring, Skeleton, and Ghoul THEMSELVES Immune: Crystal and Treasure, leave Undead status alone.  kthxbye.

dacheat

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why we need monsters. What roles will they be filling that can't already be filled by humans? Are they going to have much higher base stats than humans? Most of the monsters seem gimmicky to me. They would be effective against the right team, but a human in their place could do most of what they do with more versatility.

Why not just add another human class or two if y'all feel like you need to fill in gaps.

Eternal

Because people have wanted monsters for ages now, they were useable in previous AI tourneys, and it adds a bit of diversity instead of seeing the same humans all the time.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Timbo

What about putting Shock onto one of the bombs. It seems like a cool catch 22 combination. If the AI ignores the bomb, it blows up in their face and kills everybody. However, if bomb blows up after getting knocked around a little bit it fizzles. Having Vengeance would give it a nasty-ass alternative to mediocre damage.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Gaignun

I'm with dacheat and Raven on this one.  Old-fashioned monsters need to be made stupid powerful in order to make up for their lack of versatility.  The only monster I truly felt threatened by in the past was that red Cockatrice, and that was only because it had AI-breaking Hamedo as a reaction ability.

I'm not entirely opposed to their idea, however.  Until we (and by "we" I mean whoever's able to edit FFT's code) can work out solutions for customising monsters, we just need to create scenarios for using them, like by forcing every entrant of a tournament to use one monster in his/her team.