Final Fantasy Hacktics

• Focus of the Patch •
The focus is going to be around five base classes that each tier off into a more offensive and defensive variant, and each class will wield a primary weapon and 2-3 secondary weapons, where the final skills of said class depend on the primary weapon. This patch will also be using the elements to construct a rock, paper, scissors mentality, using fire, lightning, ice, water, and earth. While Special Classes (such as Agrias and Ramza) will use the holy and dark elements.

• Monsters: Have more unique monsters and base them around elements as well. Things like Goblins being based in earth (cannot understand why they were ever weak to ice).
• Lower Numbers: This means lower stats, less Gil per battle, while items will be noticeably more expensive.
• No Chemist: Instead, use item innate all, but in turn make potions either weaker and/or more expensive.
• Squire is now Commoner!: Changing Squire to Commoner (Description: Where everyone starts and no one knows how to do anything. Should probably pick up a sword and choose another job for adventuring!).
• Limited / Replaced Special Characters: The removal of some or many of them ... maybe replace Cloud with another special appearance?
• More Weapon Selection: Eight weapons per job, giving you a total of anywhere from 24-32 weapons to choose from per class.
• Limited R/S/M: Limit how many there are. Like removing Move +3 and such.
• Zero charge spells: It'll have to be balanced in such a way that melee classes use more MP per ability to portray the fact that they're melee, but I think this'll be interesting.

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So each of the classes will be based on a specific element? Hmm. Neat idea.

I would definitely say remove the commoner though. Start with the 5 base classes unlocked and have players work from there.

Well, that's the thing ... I can't remove squire and if I make him one of the five base classes, then special characters like Agrias won't have access to one of the five. I've also been debating between making either two spin-off classes per base class or making two spin-off classes with one being male-only and the other being female-only. The first idea is probably better, but I'm unsure.

There's an easy way around this. Early in JotF we discussed how to make multiple base classes, and the easiest way to do it is to set one of them as a class and have all of the other base classes unlocked as well. Though I suppose specials nuke that class.

Yeah, making 5 base classes isn't a problem ... making five base classes that even specials can use is tricky - hence the commoner solution.

(Had meant to in here a while ago as well. Sorry about Shuushin again too.)

Yeah, going with a "Commoner" or "Freelancer" starting class is probably the best, even if it's going to be extremely weak starting out, just because of the way that Squire's position is hardwired to interact with non-generics' job slots.

Of course, in a bit of a Catch-22, what you want to do with Squire's position often depends on what classes you want to be immediately branching from it, so you should probably figure those out first.

Before I suggest anything, there are, like always, a bunch of things I feel I need to ask:


1. When it comes to weapon-focus, do you want there to be overlap allowed? I ask partly because there's currently space for 18 different weapon types, 19 if you count barefists, so you can already get rid of 3 types and still have enough separate for 15 classes besides Commoner. I also ask partly because you might want to branches only to focus on the weapon(s) of the original instead/as well.

2. Similarly, when it comes to element focus, do you want the elemental division to be hard and fast? Or just for that particular element to be what that particular line focuses on for the most part while allowing them some other elemental use or just non-elemental use? I ask because having focused on elements a lot for Embargo, it's easy to see that it's rather important for elemental diversity to be had, not just within classes, but the game in general, while at the same time not making everything so dependent on being elemental. Otherwise it's likely to lead to situations where (magickal) classes can only physically attack the enemy if that or, even worse, all sides end up stalemating because they can't get past absorptions.

3. What exactly do you mean by "unique" monsters?


There's pretty much it for now, I guess. I might have some ideas, but I'll need to think about it for awhile, especially since I've never played with D&D despite looking it up a bit.


P.S. Goblins were possibly made weak to ice because they're generally associated with fire in standard mythology IIRC. It could have been for some other reason though given, well, Japan's differences. It also doesn't really explain why so other many things were weak to Ice (or Fire) as much as I like the element (and feel it shouldn't necessarily be automatically folded into Water).

Right, the idea was to branch the five basic classes out from squire and then two from there, though I'm going to spend sometime writing it all out on paper regardless to see where I really want to go with all of this. ^^ As for the weapons ... I was thinking of some overlapping, though their would be a primary weapon for each class I think. As in, like each class gets 8 skills (just for example), and 3/8 of them require the primary weapon of the class, but the other three can be used as is.

As for the elements, I didn't plan on putting absorb on any classes, but halve [insert element] instead so nothing is entirely useless, but it'll follow a rock, paper, scissors pattern. Surprised I didn't put it. It'd probably go something like so; Water > Fire > Ice > Earth > Lighting > Water. I'm thinking of leaving wind out since I can't make sense of where it'd go anyways. Water puts out fire, fire melts ice, ice freezes earth, earth grounds lighting, and lighting shocks water.

Probably meaning a limited about of them, change names, stuff like that. It's not fully fleshed out yet. I need to make the classes first, but with limited feedback, it's always hard for me to just come up with something out of the blue. =P

5 Rock paper scissors means 2 resistances and 2 weakness (immunity to self elemental would make sense tough, tough not required)

How about this:
Earth Lightning  <-- Ice --> Water Fire

... I don't understand what you mean by two resistances and two weakness. It'd pan out like so;

• Water Class: Halve Fire, Weak Lightning
• Fire Class: Halve Ice, Weak Water
• Ice Class: Halve Earth, Weak Fire
• Earth Class: Halve Lightning, Weak Ice
• Lightning Class: Halve Water, Weak Earth

Arrange them in a star and pick a direction the arrow goes, often through each one.  Then go in a clockwise pattern to form a pentagon.  Depending on the location of each element, and where their arrows go, that's your corresponding resistance and weakness.  If you did it like what Desocupado suggests, that means the adjacent ones are either resisted or weakened, and vice versa for the ones on the opposite end.

Boiling it all down to a limited subset of Classes isn't necessarily a foreign trend for Tactics.  There were innumerable encounters with Knights and Archers taking up a large number of the fights.  Big, big emphasis.  Seeing but Five Classes wouldn't necessarily be new to players of the Vanilla editions.  Either way, I'm game.  It would make for a nice, simple game that would also allow for shorter scenarios and thus easier to create.  Good thinking.

Okay, I guess somebody should post some class ideas. I'll throw out some basic ones and hopefully people will suggest better alternatives.

Warrior - Wields a sword and focuses on the ice element. A melee unit with lots of HP, ideal for tanking. Abilities focus on slowing down enemy units or boosting self.

Samurai - Wields a katana and focuses on the fire element. A melee unit with lots of physical attack power. Abilities focus on negating/bypassing enemy defenses and inflicting heavy damage.

Thief - Wields a dagger and focuses on the wind element. A melee unit with lots of speed. Has a versatile move set that includes both offensive and supportive abilities, though not as good as any of the others.

Scholar - Wields a book and focuses on the lightning element. A ranged unit with lots of magical attack power. Abilities focus on damage and may include weak attack abilities of some other elements or status effects such as poison, instant death, stop or petrify.

Bard - Wields a harp and focuses on the water element. A ranged unit with lots of MP. Abilities focus on healing and buffing allies.

Alternatively, the warrior could become earth elemental, leaving room for the magician to be ice elemental and the thief to be lightning elemental.

Those class ideas help a lot, since I was at bit of a mental block on how to construct it all. I do want to clarify something though ... and I know this is in the original post; there are five base classes, but ten advanced classes as well - each base class having two classes you can branch off to. The basic classes are a great start though and give me some ideas. Thanks! =D I'll let you know what I come up with in reaction to those.

This:
Earth Lightning  <-- Ice --> Water Fire
• Water Class: Halve Fire and Earth / Weak: Lightning and Ice
• Fire Class: Halve Earth and Lightning / Weak: Water and Ice
and so on.. 
Like Rock Scissors Paper with more than 3 elements: (look at yellow and green - there are two wrong arrows connecting to red circle)
(http://www.futurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/RPS-Tourney_1.jpg)

Just one strength and weakness makes neutral damage too common.

Oh, duh, of course ... it'd halve itself too. xD Haha. Which color is supposed to be which element though? Though I like the two resistances better, myself ... means only 3/5 classes can do decent damage and 1/5 classes do maximum damage. Chances are, I'll design weapons like this too ... I was thinking that each class will have three options, two secondary weapons (which allows them to use 80% of their skillset) and a primary weapon (which allows them to use 100% of their skillset). The primary would match with their element, of course and the secondaries would be shared with the other two classes that are 'neutral' to that element.

Another option is: 1 vulnerability and two resistances (itself and the "prey" elemental)
• Water Class: Halve Fire Water / Weak: Ice
• Fire Class: Halve Earth and Fire / Weak: Water

Elemental wheel: Earth -> Lightning-> Ice-> Water-> Fire-> Earth

Using this system, a higher tier class could get a secondary elemental - adjacent to it in the elemental wheel for simplicity:
Water+Ice: Halves Ice Water Fire / Weak to Lightning / Neutral to Earth
Water+Fire: Halves Water Fire Earth / Weak to Ice / Neutral to Lightning

(purple to red and red to blue arrows are inverted in this image)

Quote from: Lydyn on July 08, 2012, 12:34:28 am
Those class ideas help a lot, since I was at bit of a mental block on how to construct it all. I do want to clarify something though ... and I know this is in the original post; there are five base classes, but ten advanced classes as well - each base class having two classes you can branch off to. The basic classes are a great start though and give me some ideas. Thanks! =D I'll let you know what I come up with in reaction to those.

I was aware of that, but my main goal was just to get the ball rolling. If you really want the other 10 classes, here are some off the top of my head. The warrior upgrades into a knight (knight sword, light) and gladiator (axe, dark). the Samurai upgrades into a warrior monk (pole, light) and ninja (ninjato, dark). The Thief upgrades into a ranger (bow, light) and assassin (crossbow, dark). The scholar upgrades into engineer (gun, light) and magus (rod, dark). The bard upgrades into a sage (staff, light) and enhanter (flail, dark).

See original post for the table concerning classes.

If you're having trouble determining the Power and Magic ratings and you're going to use Level-Ups to determine growth, why not use standardized stat growths across all the classes and then change the stat divisors of each Class?  If you've tried Tactics Plus, that's a good example of standardized stat growths at work.  The rankings would just ensure the divisors themselves are standardized as well.

And remember, different growths will encourage min-maxing strategies

You're talking about standar growths, but different multipliers? Yeah I was thinking the same thing... As for the PA & MA, I guess it depends on how long I want fights to be.

Okay, it doesn't look like anybody else is posting class ideas, so I guess I'll keep going and hope others start chiming in.

First of all, if the Bard is going to be wielding a flail, I would suggest changing the Bard into a Merchant and having a harp-wielding bard as one of its upgrades. The Merchant's support abilities could easily be flavored as homebrew potions rather than songs. Anyway, here are some more thought out class upgrades.

Knight - Wields knight swords or maybe spears. Adds some healing/support abilities to the Warrior's delaying abilities, probably including something like Ramza's wish. The Knight has less offensive power than the Warrior, but makes a much better support and tank. May have access to move-HP Up.

Gladiator - Wields axes. Abilities are largely focused on crippling or damaging enemies. May have equipment breaking skills. The Gladiator has greater offensive abilities than the Warrior, but not as much HP (though he still makes a reasonable tank.)

Monk - Wields poles. Not quite as strong offensively as the Samurai, but makes up for that by inflicting negative statuses. May have some self-targeting healing/support abilities as well.

Ninja - Wields ninja blades. Glass cannon units with high mobility and evasion, but very little HP. Abilities focus on inflicting damage along with status effects such as poison, death sentence, or instant death. May also have 'bomb' abilities do no damage but add status effects such as blind or poison to all units in an area around the user. May also be able to dispel positive buffs on enemy units.

Ranger - Wields bows. Trades much of the Thief's offensive capabilities for increased range and improved support. Rather than directly healing like other support units, the Ranger heals through use of statuses such as regen and reraise, though it will likely have a direct status recovery ability.

Assassin - Wields crossbows. Trades all of the Thief's support capabilities for pure offense. The Assassin isn't quite as effective as the Ninja when it comes to killing, but the Assassin makes up for that by being able to drop enemy units from a distance. Abilities focus either on damaging enemies, inflicting statuses, or helping the Assassin to escape danger.

Sage (light) - Wields staves and evolves from Scholar. The Sage is much more balanced than the Scholar, and adds some supportive abilities to its repertoire as well as some abilities that inflict damage of elements other than its base element. The downside is that Sage spells take much longer to charge than spells from the other classes.

Magus (dark) - Wields rods. The Magus has very powerful offensive spells and can inflict a decent assortment of negative statuses. The Magus also has spells that drain HP and possibly MP. On the downside, the Magus is incredibly frail, has low mobility, and its abilities are incredibly expensive and will require the Magus to spend a lot of time either draining MP or chugging ethers.

Bard/Enchanter (light) - Wields harps and evolves from Merchant/Bard. Aside from providing support for allies, the class is also good at inflicting status ailments such as charm, confuse and berserk on enemies.

Alchemist (dark) - Wields guns and evolves from Merchant/Bard. Aside from a few possible support abilities, the Alchemist largely focuses on either adding fixed damage (dark matter mixed with potions) or inflicting negative status effects such as petrify or zombie.

I'll keep those in mind, though I really liked your original ideas for advanced classes ... however, I saw the enchanter as more of the harp-wielder, but there wasn't any more weapons left over for the bard besides clothes - which really doesn't fit. That's why I decided to switch them around. Also, I wanted to try my hand at zero charge time spells. I think it'll be easy to balance with MP alone, especially since I plan on giving everyone item, but making them rather expensive. It'll be something I'll need to tweak in the end.

One last note, light & dark elements will be for special classes only, so advanced classes will simply have what their base classes have. In either case, here's some ideas for abilities (probably need more help here than anything);

Note: Abilities with the star [☆] require the classes primary weapon.

Warrior • Guard: Add protect to one ally, range: 2 • Standing Wall: Protect 100% on self • Quicksand: Add slow to one enemy, range: 2 • Gaia: Earth damage to one enemy, range: 2 • Gaia II [☆]: Earth damage to one enemy, range: 3 • Quake: Earth damage to surrounding enemies, range: 1 around self • Quake II [☆]: Earth damage to surrounding enemies, range: 1 around self, cancels shell & protect • Guardian's Stance [☆]: Add protect, shell, & regen to self

Samurai • Break Defense: Attempts to break enemy shield • Spin Flame: Fire damage to surrounding enemies, range: 1 around self • Fire Strike: Fire damage in straight line, range: 4 • Flame: Fire damage to one enemy, range: 2 • Flame II [☆]: Fire damage to one enemy, range: 3 • Inferno Strike: Fire damage in three directions, range: 1 • Inferno Strike II [☆]: Fire damage in three directions, range: 2 • Dragon's Spirit [☆]: Fire damage to surrounding enemies, range: 2 around self

Thief • Steal Helm: Steal's target weapon • Steal Shield: Steal's target armor • Steal Accessory: Steal's target accessory • Sprint: Haste on self • Thunder Strike [☆]: Jump on target, range: 5 • Bolt: Lightning damage to one enemy, range: 2 • Bolt II [☆]: Lightning damage to one enemy, range: 3 • Allure [☆]: Charm target enemy

Scholar • Meditate: Restore little MP to self • Frostbite: Adds poison to one enemy, range: 3 • Freeze: Adds Don't Move to one enemy, range: 2 • Ice: Ice damage to one enemy, range: 3 • Ice II [☆]: Ice damage to one enemy, range: 4 • Blizzard: Ice damage AOE, range: 2, area: 1 • Blizzard II [☆]: Ice damage AOE, range: 3, area: 1 • Frozen Crystals [☆]: Ice damage AOE, range: 3, area: 2

Bard • Healing Melody: Heals little HP to one ally, range: 3 • Purity Song: Cancels Poison, Slow, Stop, & Confusion on one ally, range: 2 • Lullaby: Add sleep to one enemy, range: 2 • Aqua: Water damage to one enemy, range: 2 • Aqua II [☆]: Water damage to one enemy, range: 3 • Aquaveil: Adds shell to one ally, range: 2 • Healing Melody II [☆]: Heals some HP to one ally, range: 3 • Inspire [☆]: Heals some HP, little MP to one ally, range: 4

(I haven't forgotten about what I said, thought it helped me be lazy that Quman kept suggesting things.)

Anyway, before I start suggesting anything, as always I have to ask a few more questions:


1. I'm guessing you're going to have Phoenix Down be part of that innate item use, correct? Given you currently have no class with revival, I figure it's safe to assume you're just going to let Items (and only Items?) take care of revival, correct?

2. For the sake of suggesting abilities, I assume that we should just assume that most, if not all, status effects are going to be the same, correct?

3. Similarly, when it comes to suggesting weapon focuses, I assume that we should assume you're more or less just going to use only the original weapon types from vanilla (even if not all of them), correct?


With that out of the way, let's see what you've decided on more succinctly; this because I'm totally the person to be talking about being succinct, so I suppose textually would be a better word given the visual nature of the (now) first post:

1. Warrior: Role: Defender, Element: Earth, Halve: Earth & Lightning, Weak: Ice, Weapon: Swords, Extraordinary HP, Below Average MP, Average Move, Excellent Jump, Average PA, Below Average MA, Very Poor Evade.

2. Samurai: Role: Attacker, Element: Fire, Halve: Fire & Ice, Weak: Water, Weapon: Katana, Average HP, Below Average MP, Average Move, Below Average Jump, Extraordinary PA, Average MA, Below Average Evade.

3. Thief: Role: Scout, Element: Lightning, Halve: Lightning & Water, Weak: Earth, Weapon: (Dual) Daggers, Below Average HP, Below Average MP, Excellent Move, Average Jump, Below Average PA, Below Average MA, Extraordinary Evade.

4. Scholar: Role: Mage, Element: Ice, Halve: Ice & Earth, Weak: Fire, Weapon: Books, Very Poor HP, Excellent MP, Average Move, Average Jump, Below Average PA, Extraordinary MA, Below Average Evade.

5. Bard: Role: Support, Element: Water, Halve: Water & Fire, Weak: Lightning, Weapon: ...Flails?, Very Poor HP, Extraordinary MP, Average Move, Average Jump, Very Poor PA, Excellent MA, Average Evade.


With that said (so that I don't have to keep referring back to the first page), I'll make my more definitive suggestions and comments first:

1. A Warrior's Potential: I actually rather like this skill set the most and have nothing to suggest for it. Well done.


2. A Samurai's Vigor: Unless there's some way to restrict its obvious abusive potential, please move Vigor back to one of Samurai's "successors" if you have to actually have it all; actually, even if there was a way, please move it back. I have a suggestion as for what to replace it with, but given it would involve use of the weapon and three of Samurai's abilities already use weapons...yeah. I'm not really sure what to "get rid of"/move back when it comes to those so restricted just yet anyway; Flame II is the most likely to stay, though.


3. A Thief's Thefts: Similarly, it seems especially glaring for one of the first classes to be able to deprive people of weapons in a patch that's restricting almost half of the abilities in skill sets to having said weapons. This even more true since Thief is the only one to be able to do so. If you really must let Steal Weapon live, then move it back please. Similarly, please move Steal Armor back to advanced classes, especially given how three of the five classes already have below average HP and given how difficult it should be to steal armor someone is actively wearing. (It should be [almost] impossible in the case of actual heavy armor, but let's ignore that here.) I would "prefer" if you gave Steal Weapon and Steal Armor to entirely separate jobs, actually.

As for their replacements, just give Thief Steal Shield and Steal Helm instead, moving Steal Accessory to the first ability on Thief's list.

Thief's other abilities are fine, though I would "prefer" if you named Dash to Sprint just so people aren't confused about it possibly being an attack due to Squire's old Dash. Not really necessary, though.


4. A Scholar's Interrupted Studies: When it comes to the two missing abilities, one of them would "obviously" be Shell-adding...if Scholar were supportive. Instead, let's give that to Bard. For now, let's give Scholar "Freeze", a magickal ability that attempts to add Immobilize/Don't Move to one enemy at range, say, 3, maybe 2.

Similarly, since Bard's Purify Song is already set to heal it, let's give Scholar a range 4 or even 5 Poison-adding called "Frostbite" that targets one enemy. There. Now Scholar has eight abilities.


5. A Bard's Missing Song: As said above, make Bard's missing ability into an ability called "Aquaveil" that adds Shell to one that should "probably" be range 4.

I'm tempted to "suggest" just giving Bard Instruments over Flails as their weapons, but I'm guessing you have your reasons there, so...


6. The Obvious Split: When it comes to advanced classes, given what you said above about them staying the same element, it seems "obvious" that there should be one advanced offensive class and one advanced defensive class. In the case of Fire, perhaps there shouldn't be one advanced "defensive" class so much as there should be advanced offensive close-range and long-range classes.


With all that said, I will now suggest classes, though they won't be as in-depth as Quman. Also, I'll be using spoilers here:




See? Despite my laziness, I've finally fulfilled a promise I made to you.

The world really must be ending some time this year.

Nice post.

1. I'm guessing you're going to have Phoenix Down be part of that innate item use, correct? Given you currently have no class with revival, I figure it's safe to assume you're just going to let Items (and only Items?) take care of revival, correct? Hadn't thought of that actually ... but it makes sense to have it items only, since everyone gets it.

2. For the sake of suggesting abilities, I assume that we should just assume that most, if not all, status effects are going to be the same, correct? Not sure what you mean, unless you're asking if I'm adding any new status effects? I wouldn't know how to, even if I wanted.

3. Similarly, when it comes to suggesting weapon focuses, I assume that we should assume you're more or less just going to use only the original weapon types from vanilla (even if not all of them), correct? I don't know how to add new weapon types, so I'm forced to use the original weapon types. I wasn't even aware you could change them.

Samurai's Vigor: Fair enough. I may just exclude it all together, but I don't know what to replace it with.

Thief's Thefts: That's fair. Thief is the only one who's going to be able to steal though.

Scholar & Bard: I like those ideas. I'm just trying to avoid too many status effects for base classes so I'm free to add them for advanced classes. As for the Bard instrument, were I to go with the original Enchanter idea, I didn't want Enchanters to use flails and I'm trying to avoid using clothes or bags, as I think neither of them are really anything close to being called weapons.

The advanced classes are pretty awesome, though I'm wanting to use Knight instead of Paladin, mainly because I plan on renaming Holy Knight to Paladin instead. As for weapon suggestions ... what I originally thought of was to use [Element]'s primary weapon and the two elements that aren't weak/strong vs. it as it's secondary weapons. For example, A Samurai would use Katanas as a primary and Swords & Daggers as secondaries. The advanced classes would have their own unique primary, but use the base classes weapon selection. For example, the Archer would use the Bow as the primary, but Katanas, Swords, & Daggers all as secondaries. As for the rest, I'll definitely consider it - still focusing on base classes right now though.

(Going to for a walk, but I can at least answer this. Then I'll be probably on/around the rest of the night.)

I see, with regards to Paladins and the secondary weapons. The secondary weapons would definitely help with regards to the Job & Secondary aspects without making it almost mandatory that everyone rely on Equip whatever.


I'll respond to everything else except Samurai in a list:

1. Cloths & Bags: I see. Understandable.


2. Changing Weapons: Yes, you can. You have to change the sprites and some of the properties, but I vaguely remember it being of only at most moderate difficult compared to stuff like ASM'ing or apparently even Event work.


3. Clarifying Statuses: Yes, I was basically asking if you were keeping all of the old statuses around, including stuff like Confusion and Blood Suck. I was also implicitly asking if you were potentially thinking of anything new, but you answered that at least.


4. Monopolizing Thievery: That seems a bit narrow, but I suppose that makes "sense" even if Thief is the base for two other classes. Regardless, I'm fine with Steal Weapon dying then. Does this mean you'll not have Weapon Break around either then?


As for Samurai, as I said, I had a suggestion above, but I wanted it to be tied to the Katana weapon given the power of it and Samurai already has three-weapon restricted abilities.

However, given my suggestion for Monk to potentially use Spears in addition to Poles, Dragon Spirit would fit better there IMO:




If you want to have only one class have Breaks since you want only one class to Steal or you aren't comfortable with the suggested Katana-only skill or both, then I can try to think of something else.

However, it's probably going to take another "week" (read: fortnight) to think of much else of use given that's all I have now for Crossed Swords and I have a bunch of other things to do during said week, including Embargo.

Good luck with this.

• I'm trying to keep focus to classes, so when you have a thief, I'm keeping focus on them stealing compared to other classes. I did not plan on having any break techniques either, but I like putting Shield Break in place of Vigor. I like that.

• As for changing weapons, unless there's a tutorial, I'll probably avoid this.

• I'm going to keep Dragon's Spirit with Samurai. The reason is, despite being advanced classes that come from a base class, they'll have their own feel. Monk is going to have more martial arts moves and may very well end up with a similar ability... but I'm still in the process of making the Warrior Sprite.

Preview for the Warrior

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/Lydyn_Whirlwind/Warrior4Preview.png)

Male warrior done! ... though the female warrior sprite is going to take much longer due to my general lack of spriting skills.

Preview for the Female Warrior

(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/Lydyn_Whirlwind/FWarrior3-1Preview.png)

Yay! Somebody else is making suggestions! Now to address some of the things you said.

The reason I picked names like Sage and Magus for generics is because those names are already used for generics in other games. The idea for the sage evolving from the Bard partially came from the way the Sage evolves from the goof-off in Dragon Warrior 3, though the Sage is treated as being fairly special in that game, as well as most final fantasy games it's been in (I'm playing through Final Fantasy III right now.) The Magus, on the other hand, is basically just an upgraded Black Mage in Final Fantasy, like how the Devout is an upgraded White Mage.

As for Samurai becoming Ninjas, I'm just using the term Samurai as a shorthand for Japanese-style swordsman. Our generic units aren't magically becoming nobility in order to become Samurai or Knights, they're just fighting in that style, and Samurai sounds a lot better than Footsoldier. If it's a problem, we could use the term 'Parivir' instead of Samurai. From what I've read, Parivir is Sanskrit for "Bodyguard," which seems like a really weird name for a Japanese-style class, but virtually nobody knows where the name came from, so most people who see the name will just think of the FFTA2 class that doesn't seem to be a full Samurai (it was called Yojimbo in Japanese.) I'd like to keep the Ninja in the fire elemental branch so it can make use of the Oil Bomb ability (there's easy ASM to fix Oil,) though it's not too important.

Now to post the ideas I've been holding onto.

  Thief:
Entrust: Range: 3. Add Quick.
I'd like the Thief to have at least one support ability. It might replace Allure, since I'd prefer to save the Charm status for an advanced class, but I won't fight too hard if you want to keep Charm on the Thief.

  Scholar:
Flurry: Range: 3; AoE: 2 (as in a plus shape.) Hits random panels in the area of effect 1-10 times for minor ice elemental damage.
Prism Shield: Adds reflect status to caster. (Could be fun in the hands of enemies since they're usually good at bouncing spells, though this may be a bit powerful for a starting class.)
I don't really like giving the Scholar access to immobilize since crowd control is the Warrior's specialty.

  Bard:
Heroic Ballad: Range: 3. Increase Brave by 10 (maybe less.)

I'm trying to stay away from both reflect and any brave-altering or even faith-altering abilities. Too few people really use reflect from my experience and the ability itself is fairly powerful for even for an advanced class as it'd rule out either 6/15 classes spells or 15/15 classes spells depending on whether you want physical class abilities to be reflected. Regardless, I think it's too easy to exploit, even if there's a spell to dispel it.

As for brave and faith, I already know the exploits of modifying both parts to make silly units that have 90+ brave and so forth, so I'm just removing that ability all together. Though both abilities were completely logical suggestions as both fit the class.

As for Flurry, why would someone use that ability when they can already use blizzard and it's a 100% hit (might make it evadable like the attack option though)? It's a nice idea, but it's a huge gamble that I don't imagine most people would take. That's why a lot of people (not everyone) seems to dislike Rafa and Malak. I think I'll go with the Immobilize on one enemy (at a lower rate than Warrior's slow) and change Bard's Purity change to get rid of Immobilize instead of Stop.

As for the ninja and thief, I think putting Ninja with lightning makes a lot more sense and hadn't thought of it until Damned said something - even in spite of the clashing professions (samurai turning into ninja). As for the thief abilities, he's more of a utility unit, but he has two attack spells and one support ability.

Those are just my thoughts.

Quote from: Lydyn on July 21, 2012, 12:39:17 pmAs for brave and faith, I already know the exploits of modifying both parts to make silly units that have 90+ brave and so forth, so I'm just removing that ability all together. Though both abilities were completely logical suggestions as both fit the class.

I was assuming that you would use the ASM to remove permanent brave/faith alteration so the +10 to brave would have no lasting effects after the battle. The ASM for that comes with FFTorgASM, so it's really not difficult to apply at all. It seems to be a standard hack that's applied to pretty much every mod I see, so it didn't occur to me that you wouldn't be using it.

Quote from: Lydyn on July 21, 2012, 12:39:17 pmAs for Flurry, why would someone use that ability when they can already use blizzard and it's a 100% hit (might make it evadable like the attack option though)? It's a nice idea, but it's a huge gamble that I don't imagine most people would take. That's why a lot of people (not everyone) seems to dislike Rafa and Malak.

Part of the reason Rafa and Malak were unpopular was because it was so likely for their abilities to have no effect at all, which would be partially solved by having Flurry hit up to 10 times. On average, Flurry would hit 5.5 times, with a decent chance of hitting the same target at least twice (damage was meant to be scaled so hitting twice with Flurry is much better than once with Blizzard.) I was looking for another way to do damage without straying too far into another class's specialty.

Quote from: Lydyn on July 21, 2012, 12:39:17 pmAs for the ninja and thief, I think putting Ninja with lightning makes a lot more sense and hadn't thought of it until Damned said something - even in spite of the clashing professions (samurai turning into ninja). As for the thief abilities, he's more of a utility unit, but he has two attack spells and one support ability.

Sigh... it still kind of saddens me that we couldn't just make wind resistant to lightning and weak against wind. Wind works so much better with the Thief classes (not to mention ice for the Warrior.) Anyway, if you're going to follow his suggestions, I suggest changing the name of the Samurai to Parivir and calling the Archer the Samurai. The name Archer doesn't sound very good for an advanced class.

Nah, I'd rather avoid in-battle altering as well. Though I'll probably be editing the starting units Brave/Faith. As for Flurry, it can have zero effect as well, going off once in a square that no one is in. =P

I avoided wind because there's less wind-looking abilities honestly, and that's all it comes down to. All it is is cosmetic changes anyways, so it doesn't matter if thief has lightning or earth - it'll still follow the rock, paper, scissors formula. As for the names ... I have to disagree here. No way is a class based around archery called a Samurai. Samurai used bows, sure, but more of their famous techniques and skills came from the katana and honorable one-on-one combat. Archer is a fine name for an advanced class ... but if you have any other suggestions (besides Samurai), please let me know. ^^

Cleaned up the first post a bit. Progress has been made as well! All main abilities for the base classes are done as well as limiting those abilities to both certain classes and weapons! Introduced the concept of elemental blocking abilities - meaning that you can't be a Samurai (fire) and use Bard (water) skills, since they collide against one another. Next task is dividing the reaction abilities among the classes. They are as follow;

Vigilance
Dragonheart
Regenerate
Critical: Recover HP / MP
Bonecrusher
Magick Counter (only element abilities, like Ice or Flame II)
Absorb MP
Gil Snapper
Counter
Cup of Life
Parry

I've made final decisions on class weapons for the base classes and reorganized the first post! Go check it out. =D Also, I'll work on putting together a list for R/S/M abilities.

I like your ideas, except for the Commoner. Freelancer or Onion Knight would be more befitting for this "neutral weak" class. The rest is pretty cool, somehow reminds me of the rock paper scissors system from Fire Emblem.

I could.. do that.. but the point of the class is to just have a filler. If I put either of those names, I'd feel obligated to give them skills or the ability to equip more than just clothes and a hat. I just plan on letting the Commoner do ... nothing but attack, equip Cotton Shirt, Leather Hat and that's it. Starting units won't even be in that job class - though recruits will.

Never played Fire Emblem... though I know what it is. Working on shields, armors, hats, clothes, and helmets right now. Almost done.

I feel I should point out that Magi is just the plural form of Magus. Calling someone a Rune Magi is like calling someone a Black Mages.

Anyway, I say stick to commoner. Freelancer wouldn't be too bad, but it still calls to mind heroes like Bartz and Luneth, but the commoner isn't supposed to be a hero. Onion Knight implies that the class is weak in the beginning but becomes more powerful with mastery, but the commoner is never intended to be useful.

Ah, good eye. I'll take the time to change that spelling error. As for the commoner - exactly my thoughts. I've also added shields, armors, accessories, and items.

Why not have the Commoner class be a weak class that uses neutral skills? I believe there's an ASM hack around here which prevents an ability from being listed as a Secondary so more powerful units couldn't take advantage of them. Allow them to equip all weapon types and why not call them Freelancers?

Allow their skillset to be filled with weak status buffs, 2/3 neutral magic, 2/3 neutral physical skills. Something like...


Defy Gravity - Self Float
Lunar Veil - Self Shell
Rushing Wind - Self Haste
Sun's Shield - Self Protect
Roped Weapon - Normal strike, unlimited vertical.
Tainted Point - Normal strike, 25% Berserk
Mini-Flare - 1 Target, 3 Range, Lvl 1.5 spell power.
Meteorite - 1 Target, 5 Range Lvl 1 spell power, 25% Confusion.

All in all I love this idea of everything being corresponded to elements.

And speaking of that, is Armor finalized? You have several shields which sound like they'd resist Earth, but none of the armors have anything special about them.

I don't want to use the class as anything, is mainly why ... it'd throw the entire set-up into chaos, especially with those suggested abilities, I'm sorry to say. If I made a Freelancer class with those abilities, it'd definitely be one of the better classes and without an element? Also, no class is being given the ability to equip all weapons. My question to you is, why are you focused on trying to salvage the class? There's already 15 classes to choose from.

As for the armors, they're as finalized as far as I know ... I can't think of anything else to do with them. I'm avoiding any +Speed, +PA, +MA, +Move, +Jump from any item as to keep the classes balanced and fit as they are now. Those shields don't block earth (there's nothing listed in special), they just have those names because only earth-element classes can use them (warrior and knight). If anyone has any ideas for the shields or armors, let me know ... but I'm also trying to limit initial: [status] and too many immunities.

I really like your Accessories, you seem to have the same design concepts as me in that nearly every advantage should have a disadvantage and you played that wonderfully. I guess I can see why you'd want Commoner to stay as such, alright then.

Yet how common of a status is "Stop" if it's less Rare now, then maybe getting rid of Protect/Shell for it may be worth it. That's the only Accessory I'm a little leery on.

Bracers of Timeflow? You get those in Chapter 2 ... and some of the advanced classes are likely to have access to a stop-adding ability. If anything, it works for enemies vs. Agrias' Heavenly Vortex. What I'll probably try and do is design at least one battle near the time you get those accessories that you would find it useful. I've yet to mess with the advanced classes though - probably Illusionist or Enchanter will be able to Stop.

I have a question....

Do you want ideas for Any class? Or Unique ones, because I have an idea it may sound stupid but I have one anyway...

Sure, go right ahead. ^^

How about Reaver: A unique mystical and dark element class that can use Spears, Ninja swords and I wanna say scythes. Their skill attributes involves Doom magic of all types, MP damaging,MP absorbing, HP Absorbing, Bravery and Faith lowering attacks. (They're more well-versed in dark magic than the dark knight.) I also thought that one of their stongest magical attacks should be a summon of some underworld creature that severely attacks every enemy except for the caster. (one of those leave everyone in crtical condition kind of attacks but it doesn't kill)

I'm not too hot on the name, but I thought Reaper or Necro-demon was kinda...., well it doesn't matter

Well, I don't have scythes and I've gotten rid of brave/faith altering all together as well. Otherwise it's an interesting idea, but we'll see. If it's anything, it'll be enemy-only.

I really like your idea of having elements play a more vital role in FFT! :mrgreen: ...I kind of had an idea for a class to supplement it, though I'm not sure it would work since your elements are hard-lined to jobs/weapons (plus I don't know if its even possible, hackingly speaking :?).  The idea I had I was calling "Soul-Shifting/Golemancy".  Basically all the elements could all act like statuses and there could be a class of mage who could change the element of units at will.

I think that this could be a cool way to make the game less static in terms of strengths and weaknesses.  For example, maybe the enemy is about to cast Infrit and smoke your guy BAM! your Golemancer shifts him to fire elementals and nullifies the attack.  Or if one of your mages are casting Infrit, your Golemancer could either change the mage to fire elemental to boost his attack or change the enemy to ice to weaken them to it.

I was thinking maybe it could work for your patch if the element "shifts" could stack on the weapon elements.  Maybe? Just a thought...

I like Deverca's idea about a unit that can change elemental weaknesses, however it would probably be much easier to make it a single ability on any x unit (like Black Mage) to have some kind of skill called Elemental Shift like in other FF's, to add a slight bit of randomness. Is this even possible though? Sounds like some serious ASM work to make a elemental weakness shifting ability.

Yeah, I looked at developing a move-set like 'golemancy' in the help section, but it looks like it sounds like it would be next to impossible to do in the way I was hoping.  I guess it would involve a ton of ASM hacking.

But there is another way you could go about it... though it wouldn't be as dynamic during the battles, you could have specialized mage classes, like fire mage, ice mage, lightning mage, etc... they would have innate strengths and weaknesses of that element and boosted MA (compared to normal black mages) at the price of your magic being limited to a single element.  I imagine this could be done just like other job/monster innates. 

Or if you didn't want to use up all those extra jobs, you could make 'fire elemental', 'ice elemental', etc support abilities in place of 'magic attack UP'.

Jon, so this 'shift' idea has been used before?  I haven't played a lot of the other Final Fantasy's, so its news to me.  I thought I made it up lol.

Its not been used too often, mainly for bosses and the like. In FF IX you can change an enemies weakness to a random one, and the same in FFTA. I like having weaknesses and resistances, especially if its a rock paper scissors system. A simple example (since I guess most of you played one at least) is Pokemon's system, especially early on. You get the choice of a fire elemental monster, water, and grass. If this could be incorporated somehow into FFT, it would make a pretty unique mod. For example, you could have weapons have x element but give the wielder x weakness and x resistance, so just like Pokemon or Fire Emblem in a sense, you could have Swords all be water elemental, weak to earth but resistant to fire. Spears could be earth, weak to fire, resistant to water, etc etc. Dunno if it'd work though since there are so many jobs and weapon differences, and I guess everyone would need forced Weapon and Magic Defense, otherwise the damages would soar way too high (or weaker weapons). I'll play around with this in Patcher and see...