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Poll

Phaseshifter(?) or Monstars!?

Merge bard/dancer, introduce new class? - 8 (88.9%)
Give more stuff to performers (and leftovers to monsters) - 1 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 19, 2011, 11:09:27 PM


Pages: 1 2 [3]
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 22, 2011, 04:54:03 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2011, 04:54:03 AM »
Meh. I suppose I forgotten that I was changing Mustadio and you weren't, so there's very little I could think of.

I'm not sure how I feel about Impact being 100%-hit, distance Silence, but with most everything else, we'll have to see I suppose.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [January 22, 2011, 07:20:01 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2011, 07:20:01 AM »
I've yet to overcome the graphical glitches that result in doing so.  The animation just looks horrible every time a re-classed weapon attacks.

Pretty sure you can fix it with Hex editing.  It's just knowing where to flip the bits.  Someone probably knows if you poke around, I remember Vampragonlord made a Broad Sword into a Gun or something ages ago.

Oh, indeed -_-.  Regarding specials, I can't very well dig into Orly's repertoire because there's nothing to dig into, Reis's breaths (well, two of them) are getting double-used with the dragon family, and Worker 8/Musty/Meliadoul are all gaining skill(s) because lawd they needed some.   So... it falls onto Dear Beo.   Rafafalak losing one or two each was a possibility, but as of now all needs are satisfied.

Reis has 3 skills that can be gorged into.  You may as well cut into the third Breath skill for something.  Worker 8 I'm surprised needed extra slots dedicated to him since if memory serves, he already starts with 5 of them dedicated to him being nothing but Dispose and 4 variations of the Attack command that deal backlash damage and a proc that can't actually proc.  I was more commenting on their general poor or redundant design than gorging into them at that point, though.  Even without gutting him, Beowulf could already easily stand to lose half his skillset anyway.  I'm not bashing for digging into him so much as I am the fact you basically removed his class when I can't see you having to go to that drastic leap for ability slots.

[Mage Stuff]

Granted, there's some redundancy among the generics (5 of them can revive.  Revive differently/uniquely, mind, but revive nonetheless).

I was here for that, remember?  I suggested the Summon thing myself if memory serves.  However, what I'm getting at is - does Wizard need all 16 of its skills to function in the way you envision it?  Does Summon need all 16 Summons to function at its full potential?  Does Oracle need all 12 of those Status Spells to still be a debuffing, pole swinging beast?  Does Time Mage need a whole bunch of status and percent spells that are all basically the same 3 skills + Meteor to work?  Does Priest need 4 different skills that just grant more HP, multiple reviving skills, etc. to work?  Does your Performer need all 16 Songs and Dances to work?  Does the Mediator need to know all those different ways of never shutting the fuck up?  Are all those skills that the Squires are toting around now really Fundaments? While you can't really make use of cutting these - does Lancer need 9000 skills that teach it how to Jump?  Does Ninja need to know how to Throw every single little thing?  Does Chemist need access to every single one of those Items?

I was all about huge skillsets in the past, but actually sitting and looking at them, unless it's Blue Mage*, any time I find myself with a set that has more than ~8 skills, I find something redundant or too grossly overlapping that can easily be cut to give something that needs help elsewhere a new skill.  Sometimes this results in the temporary (or permanent, depending on how the empty slots fall) removal of a class, other times it means the distribution of skills is a bit more even and both classes have better justifications for existing beyond "well, it was there before, so why not?"  This is why I'm pressing you so hard on this - does every skill in every set need to exist for that set to function, and can the AI properly use every skill in that set?  If you can't meet both criteria, cut the skill.  In your case, do the 0 CT Black and White Magics need to be their own skills, or can you sub them for the Tier 2 Spells to add greater differentiation within the same tier instead of just between tier A and tier B?  Does the Monk need Secret Fist?  Does the Oracle need Petrify?  Does the Time Mage need Don't Move when it can access fucking Stop just as easily?  Do all the skills that are left all fit the role you were going for with that class, or can a different class carry that skill better?  (Hello, Poison on the fucking Black Mage and not the Oracle!)  If you sit and think about this shit, even after all the differences you've already added, I bet you'll find plenty of skills that can be better applied elsewhere, or that can be better carried by a different class to improve focus.  That's really what I'm getting at - for all the space problems you've been having, have you really trimmed your belt to the point you've got nothing left to trim?
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 22, 2011, 09:22:38 PM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2011, 09:22:38 PM »
Quote
I can't see you having to go to that drastic leap for ability slots.

A new class (that you don't agree with existing) with 8ish ability slots and each monster family (16 of them) getting 6 total skills instead of the initially planned 4 or 5.

All the skills that are in place currently are in their best possible location.  Only disparity I'm seeing is removing either Don't Move or Stop from Time Mage and giving it to Berserker as a battle-cry type ability.  No, setting the instant and single target spells as XXX 2 will not work because going from "charged weak AoE" to "instant single target" to "charged strong AoE" doesn't flow.  I could do some inner-balancing like make the level 1s a even wider AoE, which works within the skillsets themselves, but jives even less in the bigger picture.  

No, the monk does not need secret fist and the oracle does not need Petrify, but it's more fitting on those skillsets and those classes than any other.  Similarly a wizard doesn't need all 3 different elemental schools.  As of right now no one needs anything (Beowulf by definition doesn't even need it, his only unique abilities were Chicken and Shock.  Chicken is nixed right off the bat, but I can bring back in Shock np), so unless enough stuff becomes free in order to be scrape together yet another general ability for each monster (robbing Peter...) everything is fine.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 09:24:27 PM by philsov »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 22, 2011, 11:53:28 PM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2011, 11:53:28 PM »
I may just be speaking for myself, but I'd personally rather Shock remain gone.

Pretty sure you can fix it with Hex editing.  It's just knowing where to flip the bits.  Someone probably knows if you poke around, I remember Vampragonlord made a Broad Sword into a Gun or something ages ago.

I'll have to keep that in mind.

Quote
I was all about huge skillsets in the past, but actually sitting and looking at them, unless it's Blue Mage*

Now now, you know better than to use an asterisk without saying what the asterisk is there for.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [January 23, 2011, 12:18:59 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 12:18:59 AM »
No, the monk does not need secret fist and the oracle does not need Petrify, but it's more fitting on those skillsets and those classes than any other.

They fit more on those skillsets than on any other - but do even those skillsets need those skills, or could they be removed for something more integral to a different set entirely.  Which was really more my point - when everything is in its 100% optimal position, do those abilities even need to exist for that class to function how you want it to?  The ones that don't are easy cuts and are the ones that should be going before anything else.  This really has nothing to do with the new class existing, just being sure that every single skill is both in its 100% best position and is can justifiably exist in that position.

The Damned, the asterisk was just going to say "Because Blue Mage uses no additional ability slots", I just kind of forgot about it after writing everything else.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 23, 2011, 12:29:56 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 12:29:56 AM »
Ah, I thought as much. Just wanted to confirm.

Anyway, I do rather agree with Raven about fat-trimming, even if I'm guilty of not doing it myself; actually, just this morning I was starting to look over all my classes again and I noticed that each class could stand to lose at least a couple of things (if not for "fat-trimming"), but I digress.

I agree that Oracle could gain Poison and that Monk could stand to lose Secret Fist, but I admittedly like Oracle and hate Monk, so.... On that same token, I don't actually think that Petrify needs to move, if only because the only class that could really make use of it would be maybe Time Mage; I just realized this morning how seemingly redundant it is to give it to Wizard.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 23, 2011, 01:40:29 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2011, 01:40:29 AM »
well... poison is lost to wizards and on archers anyways.  Wizards gained a Virus spell for having a token non-elemental somewhere in their book which does have a poison proc, but honestly poison is underused on a skillset that features other strong AoE (damage, debuffs, or otherwise).  Archery doesn't, and poison bomb really shines in its new home imo.

Also Damned I love the pun in your new avatar.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 01:40:56 AM by philsov »
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 23, 2011, 02:00:07 AM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2011, 02:00:07 AM »
Ah, right. I keep forgetting that. When you get the chance, perhaps you could list all the skills your classes in class thread? I'm not asking for formulas or anything. Just a list of names and maybe what the newer abilities intend to do a general sense.

Also Damned I love the pun in your new avatar.

Thanks. I figure I need a new avatar and I forgot I had so many saved. I don't even remember what I got this one from, but alphabetically it was one of the few ones that wasn't animated or an obnoxiously large size, so there she blows.

I'll probably leave it up for at least a few days.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [February 02, 2011, 10:31:51 PM]
Re: Leftover ability slots - new generic class or perk performers/monsters?
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2011, 10:31:51 PM »
wow, a link to the fft general hacking board.   Thanks  ;)

But, yeah.  Been lurking at that topic and am happy to see some conclusions to the deal.

I'll re-review the inventory list and see where this can be applied soonish.  I'd like to hammer out my current to-do list of making sure all the new stuff actually works as intended in-game.  Animation testing drains the everliving crap out of me.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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