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Monsters  (Read 11898 times)
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 15, 2011, 08:21:27 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2011, 08:21:27 PM »
OK, did some testing with monsters and humanoid skillsets:

- They do auto-learn everything in the skillset (even non-custom skillsets, like generic Summon Magic), regardless of if "learn on JP" is flagged or unflagged -- which is great for blue mage functionality and general utility
- They do use MP, which is possibly a good thing
- They gain default job functions -- the ability to change classes, equip items, set secondary/R/S/M.  
     + If they change classes, their sprite glitches out, and they cannot change back to a monster.  However, they still cannot gain JP and are stuck with default job level 0, so so long as all other starter jobs require level 1 squire instead of level 0, they cannot change jobs or gain access to other jobs for a secondary skillset
     + equipping items does nothing.  Enabling them to equip armor doesn't even budge their health pool, and in-battle they have no equipment.  But it's back to equipped post battle
     + They auto-equip their (primary) reaction when the battle starts, and if you remove it in the ability menu it thankfully comes right back
- They cannot breed.  

In short, lose the ability to breed, and in exchange they gain the ability to have up to 16-ability skillsets and no need for the monster skill ability.  Coupled with the ARH, which thankfully has 48 spare slots (I'm only using 6 or 7 atm), each monster will have a unique ability and then several family skills.  However, because their "monster skills" are really no longer thus, many of these abilities will be seeing nerfs to keep them in line as baseline abilities.  All in all, a welcome change to monsters but it undoes a small portion of what's been done thus far.  

(The generic skillset fix isn't even needed) XD
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 08:22:22 PM by philsov »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 15, 2011, 10:02:07 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2011, 10:02:07 PM »
Hunh. Weird. Well I suppose it's good thing since I was considering doing that as well (if I end up having room, that is).

Actually, the only thing that's really given me pause about doing this (for all monsters; I was going to do it for Squidlarkin and maybe Boco regardless) is being unsure how it affects things like Poaching and Train and Dragoner skills (for the few monsters) those work on. (I couldn't really care less about Monster Skill, even if it means losing yet another RSM.)

Out of curiosity, what slots would you being using?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 15, 2011, 11:07:22 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2011, 11:07:22 PM »
Hm.

Poach still works
Monster Talk is still necessary
Dragon Stuff works fine
Train works fine

Full speed forward, then.

I'm planning on using blank slots in that glut between Holy Magic and Fear, but seriously anything works.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 12:09:51 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2011, 12:09:51 AM »
That's good to know.

So...I just realized, I guess this means that you'll be using those spare ability slots you had on monsters then?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 01:59:04 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2011, 01:59:04 AM »
Quote
I guess this means that you'll be using those spare ability slots you had on monsters then?

As I'm at a loss for the new class and I haven't heard anything good from the peanut gallery, yes. 

Hell, I might be able to squeeze everything in together... throw a few more human abilities into the monster mix and there should be enough for all monsters to have attack + 3 family abilities + 1 unique ability and an 8-10 ability class if I'm doing the math right.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 02:20:00 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2011, 02:20:00 AM »
Well, I did have some ideas with regards to that, but I didn't want to double post and you didn't respond, so....

Other than that, I suppose I support this. I'll have to see what you come up with, though.

What are you going to do encourage females to use PA classes and males to use MA classes, though? Nothing? It's not a huge deal, but it's still something that happens.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 02:25:22 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2011, 02:25:22 AM »
The Damned - the easiest solution is to use ARH to give every class a unique skill that's locked by gender, but that leads to the people who have star-over-class-OCD being forced to buy a useless skill to get it.

That, or just balance your classes so that females in a physical class with magic secondaries or the inverse are at least acceptably worthwhile.  Otherwise it's an arbitrary "do things backwards to get a class then never do it again" thing which doesn't really have enough of a reason to exist to care.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 02:53:17 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2011, 02:53:17 AM »
Quote
Well, I did have some ideas with regards to that

O.o.  Go for it dude.

Quote
What are you going to do encourage females to use PA classes and males to use MA classes, though? Nothing? It's not a huge deal, but it's still something that happens.

Nothing.

I lack the ability space (and imagination, in some cases) to introduce a gender-specific ability to all non-hybrid classes and presenting the choice of "optimal stats with incomplete skillset" or "suboptimal stats but look what I can dooooo". Besides, under the current job scheme in order to unlock Dancer (e.g.), one needs levels as a Knight, Archer, Wizard, Geomancer, and Lancer -- there's no need to traverse the 7 different physical jobs like in Vanilla, but instead 4 of them (3.5 depending on how you count geomancer and the new elemental)

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 16, 2011, 03:14:31 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2011, 03:14:31 AM »
Give me a couple of hours. I'm in the middle of watching something as well as trying to think of a couple other things creatively, so....

The Damned - the easiest solution is to use ARH to give every class a unique skill that's locked by gender, but that leads to the people who have star-over-class-OCD being forced to buy a useless skill to get it.

Ah, I wasn't aware of the ARH being used for gender (which doesn't really make sense in most cases anyway). What's "star-over-class" OCD? You mean people who want to master everything I'm guessing.

Quote
That, or just balance your classes so that females in a physical class with magic secondaries or the inverse are at least acceptably worthwhile.  Otherwise it's an arbitrary "do things backwards to get a class then never do it again" thing which doesn't really have enough of a reason to exist to care.

Fair enough.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 03:03:28 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2011, 03:03:28 AM »
OP updated with the major facelift to monsters thanks to being granted expanded skillsets.  One will notice many human abilities scattered about to save room, while many of the "monster skills" reduced in power/effectiveness/something as a result of being a baseline ability.  For example Chocos now have Choco Protect and Choco Shell, instead of the Choco Guard ability which did both of these simultaneously.  

My chief concern is that one species isn't completely worthless relative to the other two, or that one species is so damned awesome that who in their right mind would ever choose to use a variant!?!  There is some light redundancy (Aqua Soul is Aero is Eruption with slightly different damage output and element) but all in all I think the spread is pretty good, though I'm biased.  Perhaps one of the general abilities can be a species-specific and vice versa if that would fix a family or two?  

Offhand I know Bombs could use some work (their species-specific abilities aren't too different, its all fire in different fashions)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:05:22 AM by philsov »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 08:44:47 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2011, 08:44:47 AM »
Offhand I know Bombs could use some work (their species-specific abilities aren't too different, its all fire in different fashions)


Bombs are Bombs, their only real purposes in life are to burn down luscious rain forests and explode everywhere.

I'll look over those sets again when it's not 5am and my Internet is cooperating more.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 02:33:13 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2011, 02:33:13 PM »
Hurray for insomnia, right?

Counter List:

The changes in this remind me that I've yet to comment in that other thread. I suppose I should do that.

Chocobo: speedy and mobile, but with low HP and minor evade.  Notably have choco meteor as their primary attack function -- it's weaker than other iterations but it gives them a bit of defense by proxy.  Primary support units, with almost all their moves being Self + 1 AoE in nature.


I personally think that Choco Haste should be on all Chocobos and that Choco Esuna should go be the third differing skill. Otherwise it just seems like everyone's going to use the Red Chocobo because we all know how overpowering Haste is.

Also, I can't really say that I like that Chocobo's get Auto Protect now. It seems really...odd, especially not all of them even have Choco Protect.

Goblin - Grunts of the monster world, specializing in melee range attacks. 


I like the idea of Sleeper Hold. Too bad we can't make it only activate from behind or something. Outside of that, as always I'm iffy about Goblin Punch, but eh, at least it's close-range only unlike 1.3. Looks like you just went with Mutilate, which I guess is fair enough. Not much else to say, especially since in this case I feel the counters are appropriate.

Bomb - Your fiery friend and mine, these lovable little scamps specialize in fire damage. 


Bombs seem completely fine. That they're all Fire-based abilities is pretty inevitable, even if it makes them rather easy to block. You'll just have to make sure they're always grouped with things that can get around Fire-resistance and/or absorptions, though that's obvious.

I suppose you could somewhat remedy that inability to do non-Fire-based damage by giving them Counter instead of MA Save, but I don't think that's really worth it.

Panthers - Status-heavy kitties. 


I still don't get why they have Speed Save and I still don't understand the point of Execute. However, given how distracted I've been all morning/night--finally got around to seeing Moon by chance--and such, I haven't exactly thought of replacement Archer skills just yet.

Anyway, besides those things, Panthers look fine I suppose, though Screech might actually end up being a bit overboard between its damage, canceling Charging and their (potential) speed.

At present, Panthers actually don't inflict all that much status as you seem like you want them to do.

Squids - Intelligent and misunderstood creatures of the deep. 


Still trying to get used to the effect-shuffling with the old names here, even though they still work.

I lol'd at you working in Rub, even though I tend not to like "this may just kill you" techniques. (Fucking Crush Punch.) Not really much to say besides that.

Oh, wait. Now that I think about it, given it's description, does Aqua Breath automatically target the self like Spark? Or are you just noting that two Squidlarkin or whatever can heal each other with it? It seems like the former, but it's not entirely cleatr.

Skeletons - Undead and loving it.


Auto-Shell seems kind of off, but otherwise I like Skeletons at present outside of Death. As long as they can't spam it, perhaps it's not so bad. However, as I just said, I don't really like "hey, I can immediately kill you (maybe)" abilities.

Ghouls - Tormented souls, and misery loves company. 


Similarly, Ghouls seem fine, though it will be difficult to tell how much better Possess might be than the other two techniques.

Flotiball - MA-heavy foes with a perchance for status infliction.


Not really sure I like Death Sentence and Confusion on the same monster, if only because the AI is still rather stupid with regards to those techniques. Similarly, I still don't Light Whisper hitting randomly. Otherwise, these seem fine.

Juravis - Mobile and speedy, with a nice mix of status, self-buffs, and ranged AoE. 


Again, somewhat weirded out by Auto Protect on this particular monster, but that might just because I'm not use to Auto Protect. (That wouldn't entirely be the reason I find it odd, though, regardless.)

Is Hurricane no longer Wind? Because that seems slightly important one way the other. Beyond that, 60% HP seems like a lot, especially for something with an AoE of 2. I never did like Hurricane as a percentage thing, but the original only took a third unless you were weak to Wind, so even then it didn't seem as suspect as this.

Beyond that, it seems fine.

Uribo - Lovable little scamps, boasting mostly defensive abilities. 


...I'm trying to decide whether or not I want to find some way to e-punch you for "Oinkment"; I'm surprised "Exalt" didn't end up as "Exsalt" or something.

Getting past that, I can't say that I like that Uribo lack any attacking abilities whatsoever even if they are obnoxious little support bastards that seem like they never die. It seems like they should get something one over Warn, which just feels a little weak (even if it's nice to see that it got buffed), especially since Uribos will never get the chance to equip Monster Talk if they don't already have it. (Or can monsters already affect other monsters with Talk Skill? I forget.)

Besides that, I'm not sure what that I like Exalt or HP Restore, but otherwise it's fine, I guess. I mean...they're Uribos. I couldn't care much less.

Woodmen: Specializing in self-AoE effects.  Very defensive-oriented skillset. 


As said before, I really like Woodfolk now.

Bull Demon - Damage-heavy foes, with a good spread of melee, AoE, and status. 


Not much to say here outside of wondering if Bull Demons got enough MP to cast Holy or, rather, when they get enough MP to cast Holy.

Morbols - Quite the hybrid nowadays. 


Both PA-Save and MA-Save? Seems a bit much, but it's not like it's broken or anything.

I don't have any suggestions for Lick, sorry.

Behemoths - Damage-heavy monsters. 


Ugh, I hate seeing that Lifebreak is still around, especially since it's meager range is kind of obviated by Blue Mages getting Goblin Punch (and presumably having had it for a while).

Speaking of Blue Magic, Roar seems rather weak for a Blue Magic spell, especially for one that you presumably get rather late in the game. (Roughly by what chapter do you intend on having Behemoths show up?)

Besides that, not much to say.

[
Dragon - More diversified than your normal monster family.  Only PA component is their normal attack (which still hurts);


You realize that with the current changes, Dragon's currently don't have a regular PA-based attack, right? It seems like that might need to be addressed. Otherwise, I suppose it's fine for still having two human attacks and only differing Breath attacks.

Hydras: 3 heads = triple the fun.


Does Dark Whisper still proc Sleep (or Dead)? Otherwise, I'm not sure how I feel about it as a Blue Magic spell, but not for the same reasons as Roar (read: thinking that it's weak).

I'm not sure I like Mega-Breath being tri-elemental, even if it fits.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 03:52:10 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2011, 03:52:10 PM »
thanks for the feedback.  Quick note, Speed Save is being ASM-hacked (thanks to Pokeytax) of simply granting 20 CT on trigger, so there's no massive cyclic effect anymore.  Similarly auto-protect replaces caution and auto-shell replaces sunken state.  The ones with caution just got converted, thought the auto-shell on skeletons was more inserted because I think some monster family deserves it, and it seemed to work on them.  *shrug*

True, auto-protect does seem out of place on chocos.  Making Haste familywide is a good thought, but I think one monster family needs to have an esuna-like ability as a baseline.  Choco cure is too much of a staple, and this leaves... choco meteor as something for the Red?  Doesn't exactly fit the scheme but it might work better overall.

With bombs they all still have the "attack" command, which will work well enough for fire-friendly foes.  I don't think Counter would supplement that much.

Panthers and 51% damage screech is a concern.  Perhaps wrangling it down to 33% or 25%?  Regarding execute, it's an ideal 100% kill shot on an opponent with low health.  With global class evade and innate weapon guard, unless a unit is rocking concentrate physical attacks can always miss.  And while execute is faith-based and marred by compat, it should, more often than not, provide a certain edge to things.

Squids and aqua breath isn't auto-AoE.  So it's akin to being on the outside of a + sign.  It slightly resembles a breath attack from FFTA.  It can be targeted on self (for now), but it's basically the same thing as Lurid Wave for ghosts, only water instead of Dark.

Skeletons and Death... perhaps Demi or Lich instead?  Auto-shell does seem off, I admit.

Flotiballs and Death Sentence/Confusion -- the AI actually quite intelligent, really.  There's no point in acting on a unit that will be dying shortly or will be doing random actions.  The current death sentence stupidity comes from (previous) items that block dead but do not block death sentence.  This is fixed in this patch.  For confusion... there isn't much I can do with it atm since it's still coded last indefinitely, so the "Loss strat" is possible but unlikely.  For light whisper... perhaps just plum Light Pillar?  Single strike on a single panel?

Birds and Hurricane -- yes its still wind elemental, but being weak to X element when the attack is % based will only increase the odds of it working, not its direct output.  60% is strong, I admit.  But I think it needs a large AoE - so its either weak but likely damage or strong but may not work damage.  Hm.

Uribos and lacking Monster Talk is something I had neglected to think about.  Nose breath should suffice for offensive moves imo, though perhaps they can gain an oracle-like ability instead of Warn?  Exsalt is awesome, though perhaps I should make it ally-only.  Vivify will certainly have an MP cost and/or charge time, btw.

Bull Demons and Holy... they should have enough MP to rock Holy in chapter 2ish.  Not that it'll do phenomenal damage, but it's still a long-range unevadable spell.  So it's really more of a half-reference -- if I wanted them to truly have crap for species ability I'd leave it blank and then where's the fun in that? :p

With behemoths and roar, it's the same formula as wave fist (and gets boosted by martial arts, for what its worth).  Or, more aptly, it does normal attack damage if the behemoth had 50 Brave.  It seems a bit weak for blue magic but I wanted to include another PA-based ability into the mix and there aren't a lot of good options out for such things.  Life Break is quite nasty on behemoths specifically because of their health pool, but we'll see how it plays out.  I'm pretty sure then enter the game in chapter 3.

Dragons... I'm aware that their only PA-based function is the "attack" command, but perhaps the Disrupt ability can shift into something hefty?  Maybe a PA-based knockbacker?

Hydras -- dark whisper has no status attached to it.  It's just straight MA damage with the same formula as MA-based elemental.  Hm... I may just make it an AoE effect instead of a multi-hit one?

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Skip Sandwich [Posts: 994]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 06:54:16 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2011, 06:54:16 PM »
regarding hurricane, i'm pretty damn certain that elemental weakness falls into the second category of damage modifiers, in that it, like weather effects, boost or reduce the final damage calculation, and not the effective XA of the caster (like X Attack UP/DOWN and Protect/Shell do). This would seem to be confirmed by units in Arena that are weak against dark taking 100% HP damage from Demi 2 and Lich

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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 07:08:39 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2011, 07:08:39 PM »
aaah, yes, you're right.

Cancel/weak/half will affect the damage output
Str:ele will only affect the success rate.

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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [January 20, 2011, 10:46:05 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2011, 10:46:05 PM »
*hypnosis
Lucifer_zero [Posts: 76]
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  • [January 21, 2011, 12:31:34 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2011, 12:31:34 AM »
Don´t know if will be of some help, but i want to give opinions too


Chocobo
Why not leave for all Choco Meteor, Choco Haste, Choco Esuna, and make the 4th cure HP but each have a different effect, if it´s possible to have, like Yellow cure most than others ( or cure HP + little MP ), Black cure + Shell and Red cure + Protect ?


Goblin
Mutilate is 75% MaxHP or CurHP ? For the name, it could be a skill that when hit dnever kills, but leave the target at critical.


Bomb
If Weak + Absorb stacks, Bomb Family could have Weak + Absorb Fire ( I think that would make they a little more useful.


Panther
I agree with The Dammed that for now, Panthers aren´t like you wanted, instead of making Screech more weak, why don´t leave it as a 4th skill ? Could make a skill that inflict silence 100% ( or  mid - high chance ) [ Cat got your tongue? ] Silence is one status that monsters don´t inflict yet ( except by Great Morbol´s Bio3 )


Squids
Nice, not much to say for now, but as creatures from deep they could have Half-Ice


Skeletons
All having the same elemental Soul seen kinda odd, and Ice is more undeadish than water, i know that if they lose element this will be like Ghoul´s throw spirit, but still... what about being non elemental brave dependent ( if possible )

About Death, Skels are more Warrior than mages... a close range drain like skill seen more they ( something like Blood Sword, same name as the sword, except it´s a close skill ). But, i liked Demi, but only if is 0 AOE.  For react, with fury implemetent, what about Brave Up ? That way the more they are hit, the more they hit back ! ( and with Soul being brave dependent... more damage )


Ghouls
Irreverence seen kinda odd, cuz it looks more like a punishment for someone who don´t belive in god..., instead, could it not heal non undead ? ( yeah... undead healling non undead is odd to... )


Flotiball
Being a heavy-MA monster, they should have at least one skill MA based damage  ( even throught their skills are MA based % ), and, like The Dammed, i don´t think that Light Whisper is good with random hitting.


Juravis
Instead of Auto protect, maybe Critical quick ? And Hurricane could be like i´ve said on Mutilate, take CurHP instead of MaxHP.


Uribo
Need something better than Warn, maybe a skill that replanish MP of one target ? If the intend is to make they being more alive, put Dragon Spirit + HP Restore ( sound strange... i know... )


Woodmen
Regeneration and Prune affects only Allies or self too ? Barrier and Rebirth will be 100% ?


Bull Demon
For me sound odd Holy not with Sacred.


Morbols
No one would like to hav a Morbol lick... so Lick should be negative, like give one of these Stop / Don´t Act / dont Move, with 100% at close range ( morbols hav Mov 2... they don go close so easily ), or, as they hav a bad breath, they tongue is venous and it still scary a giant morbol lickin you, so u become paralyzed with fear... so... Poison + Don´t Act 100% close range ( i´ve also thinked about Poison + dont Act + Haste... but then people would put status defense gear to hav a morbol Hasting every time )


Behemot
I love Behemot, but on FFT i think they are kinda weak, will they have innates ?

Boost as 15 is good, with 20 this would make to easy having 100 brave, as it would be necessary you use the Brave down skill 2 times to counter one boost.


Dragon
Instead of Disrupt, why don bring back Tail Swing, but range 2... and the knockback ( but no random damage )


Hydra
How is the difference on Vert Tol of Triple Thunder and Dark Whisper ? Triple Flame could be non-elemental, that way each tier would have only one elemental.




For now it´s only this... i think... i´m kinda sleepy rigth now, don´t know if my opinio will help... but at least i´m trying.

My english sucks... and i know this.

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [January 21, 2011, 04:05:02 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2011, 04:05:02 AM »
*smacks face while trying to think up good Archery skills*

thanks for the feedback.  Quick note, Speed Save is being ASM-hacked (thanks to Pokeytax) of simply granting 20 CT on trigger, so there's no massive cyclic effect anymore.

I was already aware of that, which is why I didn't say anything about Panthers having Speed Save. (Although, admittedly, I believe mine have regular Speed Save at present, so there's that as well.

True, auto-protect does seem out of place on chocos.  Making Haste familywide is a good thought, but I think one monster family needs to have an esuna-like ability as a baseline.  Choco cure is too much of a staple, and this leaves... choco meteor as something for the Red?  Doesn't exactly fit the scheme but it might work better overall.

I was going to say this is fine, but I actually think that Lucifer_zero is onto something.

As for what to potentially Auto-Protect with, perhaps Regenerator? They pretty much act like Priests anyway and it wouldn't be as potentially obnoxious as giving them Critical Quick or Dragon Spirit. Also, only one other monster family of yours, the Hydra, has it.

It's not like Auto-Protect is huge deal anyway, especially if you're giving Knights Auto-Protect.

With bombs they all still have the "attack" command, which will work well enough for fire-friendly foes.  I don't think Counter would supplement that much.

Wait, I'm confused.

I thought normal attacks counted as the attack command?

...Oh wait. Since you're giving them non-monster skillsets (technically), they can attack normally, can't they?

Panthers and 51% damage screech is a concern.  Perhaps wrangling it down to 33% or 25%?

33% seems like it would be more fair. Maybe even 40~% if you do what Lucifer_zero suggested.

Regarding execute, it's an ideal 100% kill shot on an opponent with low health.  With global class evade and innate weapon guard, unless a unit is rocking concentrate physical attacks can always miss.  And while execute is faith-based and marred by compat, it should, more often than not, provide a certain edge to things.

I guess Execute is fair enough then. I still just really find it odd that Archers have it or that it's a distant attack, rather.

When I think medieval executions, I think of axes and maybe swords beheading people. Not arrows "pew pew" shooting them in the head. (Not that this isn't effective at killing someone. It's not that's not exactly what you think of when you think of a firing squad.)

Squids and aqua breath isn't auto-AoE.  So it's akin to being on the outside of a + sign.  It slightly resembles a breath attack from FFTA.  It can be targeted on self (for now), but it's basically the same thing as Lurid Wave for ghosts, only water instead of Dark.

By being "outside", I'm assuming you mean "stand in the center of and not get hit if you don't want to".

Otherwise, I think I pretty much get what you're saying.

Skeletons and Death... perhaps Demi or Lich instead?  Auto-shell does seem off, I admit.

Not really sure. I've come to hate Lich as of late and Demi is rather...unwhelming still I'm guessing. I guess Demi's fine as long as it's quick enough since it gives them a way to heal themselves (?) as while still attacking. Do they even really need a "Darkness-based percentage" attack though?

Anyway, as said earlier, the Auto-Shell thing isn't a huge deal. It just seems a bit weird. Perhaps consider Auto-Protect? Then again, Auto-Shell would maybe protect them from Raise (2) shenanigans, so...?

Flotiballs and Death Sentence/Confusion -- the AI actually quite intelligent, really.  There's no point in acting on a unit that will be dying shortly or will be doing random actions.  The current death sentence stupidity comes from (previous) items that block dead but do not block death sentence.  This is fixed in this patch.

While that is the major problem with Death Sentence and the AI, there's also the problem that they will pretty always straight out ignore the Death Sentence'd unit even if it's still a (major) threat. If they at least attempted to status the unit or something, then I'd be less weary of it.

Last I worked on my patch, I had to take the precaution of always pairing up Death Sentence with another status (usually Poison) to get around this, even after implementing the "Ignore Block: Dead" stuff.

For confusion... there isn't much I can do with it atm since it's still coded last indefinitely, so the "Loss strat" is possible but unlikely.

Yeah, Confusion is...an annoying problem. [/understatement]

For light whisper... perhaps just plum Light Pillar?  Single strike on a single panel?

Single strike on a single panel sounds good. Maybe even a (weaker) linear Light/Holy attack.

I wouldn't name it Light Pillar, though. Given that you're referencing past FFs, you probably don't want to use the same name as something that was, IIRC, at least a couple of Omega Weapons' instant kill Gravity attack.

Birds and Hurricane -- yes its still wind elemental, but being weak to X element when the attack is % based will only increase the odds of it working, not its direct output.  60% is strong, I admit.  But I think it needs a large AoE - so its either weak but likely damage or strong but may not work damage.  Hm.

What Skip Sandwich pointed out. I honestly have no idea why it works like that.

Uribos and lacking Monster Talk is something I had neglected to think about.  Nose breath should suffice for offensive moves imo, though perhaps they can gain an oracle-like ability instead of Warn?

"Oracle-like" as in...?

Exsalt is awesome, though perhaps I should make it ally-only.

I have only myself to blame.

Vivify will certainly have an MP cost and/or charge time, btw.

Okay, good.

Bull Demons and Holy... they should have enough MP to rock Holy in chapter 2ish.  Not that it'll do phenomenal damage, but it's still a long-range unevadable spell.  So it's really more of a half-reference -- if I wanted them to truly have crap for species ability I'd leave it blank and then where's the fun in that? :p

Oh, I'm fine with Bull Demons having Holy now. I was just asking because I'm not sure how much it costs to cast Holy in your patch and I'm not nearly good enough to work out stat growth or anything like that in my head at present.

With behemoths and roar, it's the same formula as wave fist (and gets boosted by martial arts, for what its worth).  Or, more aptly, it does normal attack damage if the behemoth had 50 Brave.  It seems a bit weak for blue magic but I wanted to include another PA-based ability into the mix and there aren't a lot of good options out for such things. Life Break is quite nasty on behemoths specifically because of their health pool, but we'll see how it plays out.  I'm pretty sure then enter the game in chapter 3.

Okay, fair enough. I keep forgetting you're keeping Martial Arts available to the generics/player.

Dragons... I'm aware that their only PA-based function is the "attack" command, but perhaps the Disrupt ability can shift into something hefty?  Maybe a PA-based knockbacker?

You mean like bringing back Tail Swing or Dash or something? Hey, if it isn't broken....

Hydras -- dark whisper has no status attached to it.  It's just straight MA damage with the same formula as MA-based elemental.  Hm... I may just make it an AoE effect instead of a multi-hit one?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, in that case, AoE seems like it might be better, but then again, Blue Mage would be a bit more versatile with a multi-hitting attacking over yet another AoE one. So it's your call really. (Although that's kind of pointless to say since all of it is your call.)

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [January 22, 2011, 02:22:13 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2011, 02:22:13 AM »
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Don´t know if will be of some help, but i want to give opinions too

That's exactly why this topic is here.  Well, moreso for the 2nd part.  But still!

(Note: merging responses to both you and Damned into a single semi-wall (block?) of text)

Chocobo - sadly there isn't a formula that heals and reliably adds status.  So Red as the "offensive" variant is sounding better and better in my mind.  Regenerator would make a good 2nd reaction, and it's neither obnoxious nor common. 

Goblin - Mutilate is Max HP.  All the formulae that involve Current HP can't hold an element so I'm not using them since they'd be horribly OP on bosses.  The MaxHP's can be flagged as Dark, and thus boss immune, which is why I can rock 75% HP in the first place.

Bombs - Already weak+absorb Fire for maximum absorb funsies.  And, yes, all monsters have the generic "attack" command by default, good ol' missionary PA * PA*Br/100. 

Panthers - A silencer would be a pretty cool move, and something welcome for the monsters.  However I find having both that and screech on the same unit rather redundant.  Perhaps I can keep the Screech skill around as a free-agent for other 4th skillers with other monsters.

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Not arrows "pew pew" shooting them in the head.

They're critical and frantical sprinting away from you.  You can try to chase them down and hack them up, or regally stand where you are, get them in your sights, lead them ever so slightly, release the bow string, and THWACK.  THUMP.  A twitch, perhaps, and then nothing.

>_>

Squids: I hadn't thought to include half:elements for most of the schemes.  Currently most monsters are weak to one, absorb one, and cancel one.  Hm.  As for the plus thing, you're still IN the plus, just not in the center.  It's 1 range with 1 AoE.  If you use the ability directly in front of you, you'll get hit by your own blast, then 3 squares, then 1.  The squids hitting themselves with it is half the point because it's spark-like in nature with them healing themselves while damaging the bad people.

Skeletons: retain Aqua Soul because of the blue mage scheme more than anything else.  Ice Soul would be redundant with Ice Breath, and so it just came down to Lit Soul versus Aqua Soul, and Aqua Soul seemed to fit skeles as a whole more.  It's just... really cold water?  Regarding the formula, it is possible.  There is a [PA * Br/100] * MA formula (flagged no element) that I have yet to employ, but perhaps it'd be better to give that one to Ghosts as a replacement for Throw Spirit -- and then make Throw Spirit blue mage available?  I want to keep XXX Soul and Throw Spirit different, and the elemental attribute atm is a nice striking difference (and currently one is MA while the other is PA based). 

Atm Fury is one hack that's not making its way into the patch, because there are several scenarios where I want the enemies to have 100% Br for reaction funsies, and I don't want to cause these guys to deal/receive massive damage as a result of it. 

Close-range drain is an idea, but Morlboros currently have that and I want to avoid repeats of that nature when possible.  I'd prefer to stick to the Dark motiff, and Demi is a good candidate (Demi2 is becoming single target but hits for greater than 50% HP) with its AoE.  Regarding reaction... I doubt auto-shell would do much versus Raise2 and Cure ignores shell.  Heh.

Ghosts - Punishing the nonbelievers in pure spite and hatred is the entire point of it, and its more effective the more cynical the ghost is! 

Flotiballs - Confusion + poison seems like a fun little combo.  So far only the plague is lacking in a pure MA-based ability with the other two having species-specific MA-based damagers, but for what its worth the success rate of circle (and all their statii, really) is MA-based.  As for a linear Light attack... so far we've got Immolate on the Bombs and various breaths from bull/dragon/hydra.  Sure, another would be fine, probably to the tune of 5 range (something like Holy Explosion, only not, you know, overpowered).

Juravis - I'm using MaxHP for reasons above, but Crit Quick (which is also rare monster-wise) secondary would be pretty cool, if rarely used (as in, speed save would have to fail and the bird would need to be critical.).  That window might be too tight and I want them with Speed Save primary so idk.

Uribo - Dragon Spirit + HP Restore on a single unit is just flat out broken.  MP Restoration is a possibility (and monsters are lacking one such move atm).  Hm.  Angel Song should work?  Despite the obvious piggy-squeal jokes that can be made?  The animation is a bit off but it's not glitchy.  btw their normal attack command is soooo cute. 

Trees - Prune is certainly ally-only, but I don't think Regenerator will be.  Barrier spirit is 100% and Rebirth will probably be 100% as well (I hate sub 100% revivals...)

Bulls - Eh, Sacred is just a funny name anyways.  Regarding MP... it's all a relative thing, really.  The only numbers I'm concerned about are the ones dealing with blue magic and monsters that gain human abilities which have an MP cost. I can juggle around those np.

Behemoth - not planning on innates, really.  Possibly innate short/non charge but past that giving them stuff like attack up or magic attack up is pointless when I can just as easily boost their MA or PA multipliers.

Dragons - Knockback formula IS random tragically and imo scales for crap.  But the ability to knockback will be worth the reduced damage later on.

Hydras - The currently difference in vert tol is 2 between thunder and dark whisper... the latter of which will probably remain multi-hit because it increases the functionality of the blue mage (who has plenty of AoE effects).  If I make triple flame plum triple breath, I don't think it'd tip too many scales either way.  Hydras would be elemental-less (minus mega breath), mind, but making it fire element or no elemental is minor, and now that you mention it I'm pretty sure non-ele would probably be better.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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