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Monsters  (Read 11923 times)
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 21, 2010, 05:22:31 PM]
Monsters
« on: December 21, 2010, 05:22:31 PM »
*equips flame-suit*

Monsters are normalized in ASM'd -- they lose their tiered system and more just variants -- stats are equal so that a Yellow Choco is the same as a Black one, e.g.  The only difference is their unique ability.  Biggest change ASM'd does is give monsters a unique skillsets which removes the need for monster skill but more importantly expands their abilities.  They will all have the attack command by default and then feature 3 family abilities coupled with a species-specific ability.  To this end, the "monster skills" are now just normally powered skills.  Monsters are still specialized but powerful units.  In addition to this all monsters gain secondary reaction abilities which is just another lovely thing to be triggered.  

On top of this, the inclusion of human-like skillsets (not that JP is involved or anything) means that a) breeding is not possible and b) monsters can be limited by MP since if MP is set it will be reduced.  Thus, some of the better monster abilities will be gaining an MP cost to prevent mega spammage, but I'm still working out which ones and how much and all that jazz.

So... please review these as desired:

- anything warrant a rename?  Kinda suck in the naming department
- Do the counters work?  Could use improvement?  etc
- Do the abilities/monster skills work?  Improvement, etc

How multiple reactions work:  If they share the same trigger (counter and hamedo, e.g.) they stack multiplicatively -- on a monster with 70 Br they have a 70% chance to do their first reaction and then if that doesn't go off they have a second 70% chance (21% net - 30% chance remaining times 70%) for a total chance of 91% to somehow react to the attack.  On seperate triggers (counter and counter magic, e.g.) it's 70% on both fronts.  

Counter List:

Regarding stats -- all growth is set to 5 HP / 25 PA / 25 MA / 170 Sp.  This is more advanced than humans (7/40/40/190, at max) but then again monsters don't have gear to equip or supports to swap.  The only difference rests in their multipliers, which range from 100 to 180 depending on the stat and the monster.  

Abilities marked with an asterisk (*) are the ones learnable by the Blue Mage.  

Chocobo: speedy and mobile, but with low HP and minor evade.  Notably have choco meteor as their primary attack function -- it's weaker than other iterations but it gives them a bit of defense by proxy.  Primary support units, with almost all their moves being Self + 1 AoE in nature.


Goblin - Grunts of the monster world, specializing in melee range attacks.  


Bomb - Your fiery friend and mine, these lovable little scamps specialize in fire damage.  


Panthers - Status-heavy kitties.  


Squids - Intelligent and misunderstood creatures of the deep.  


Skeletons - Undead and loving it.


Ghouls - Tormented souls, and misery loves company.  


Flotiball - MA-heavy foes with a perchance for status infliction.


Juravis - Mobile and speedy, with a nice mix of status, self-buffs, and ranged AoE.  


Uribo - Lovable little scamps, boasting mostly defensive abilities.  


Woodmen: Specializing in self-AoE effects.  Very defensive-oriented skillset.  


Bull Demon - Damage-heavy foes, with a good spread of melee, AoE, and status.  


Morbols - Quite the hybrid nowadays.  


Behemoths - Damage-heavy monsters.  


Dragon - More diversified than your normal monster family.  Only PA component is their normal attack (which still hurts);


Hydras: 3 heads = triple the fun.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:10:02 AM by philsov »
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [December 22, 2010, 05:30:27 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 05:30:27 AM »
Do they still have elemental weaknesses? Perhaps it would be a good idea to include monster status immunities as well. It would help formulating attacks by basing them around their weaknesses. I like what you did with the tiers. I like it WAY more than 1.3's that's for sure.

Chocobos: Love it

Goblins: I'm guessing Magic Hammer is there to try to stop Wizards from Ice Bombing them? Although if it was, it would have to be ranged. I'm not really sure what Goblins are supposed to do with Zap though. Seems a little out of their element, being magical and lightning elemental and all. Anti-Squid duty? Do they even have any MA to run it off of? Perhaps Goblins could benefit from having a Self Protect/Regen Spell? As for a Monster Skill, how about their old Goblin Punch from 1.3?

Bombs: Like it

Panthers: Poison Nail = Hardcore. As for a MS, how about a plain old ranged attack called Pounce? Or Self Float? Or maybe an attack that can only effect Poisoned units?

Squids: Love the MS

Skeletons: Love it, but I'd need some convincing to like Beckon, though. Maybe high% Undead Sleep instead?

Ghosts: I kinda liked Blade Grasp as a reaction, but maybe it's for the best. Do they still teleport?

Flotiballs: Like it

Juravis: Like it

Uribos: Would having their MS be some form of MBarrier be too much?

Woodmen: Does prune require actually having Protect/Shell/Regen on to work, or does it work irregardless?

Minotaurs: Love it

Morbols: Love it

Behemoths: Does Blaze hurt allies as well? Because if not, that would suck for the MSer

Dragons: Love it

Hydras: Awareness = Nice Touch. D-Barrier? I think you meant D-Whisper. Otherwise, I love it.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 23, 2010, 06:59:22 AM]
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 23, 2010, 11:37:27 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 11:37:27 AM »
Only going to comment on movesets because "tX" is too vague in most cases to really say much on.

Chocobo: speedy and mobile, but with low HP and minor evade.  Notably have choco meteor as their primary attack function -- it's weaker than other iterations but it gives them very little reason to be in the thick of things.  Primary support units, with almost all their moves being Self + 1 AoE in nature.

Reaction 1: Counter
Reaction 2: Caution

Tier 1: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Esuna / Kweh?!?
Tier 2: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Guard / Kweh?!
Tier 3: Choco Meteor / Choco Esuna / Choco Guard / Kweh?!?

Choco Meteor - 3 range MA*Y damage, unevadeable.
Choco Esuna - Self + AoE status cleansing, doing a majority of nasty status
Choco Cure - Self + AoE HP curing
Choco Guard - Self + AoE Protect or Shell effect
Kweh?!? - Self + AoE Haste effect

Only 3 range on Choco Meteor really still does leave them "in the thick of things."

I dislike Choco Guard on principle that you need to toss a coin and hope you get the damage reducer you want, adding a luck element to tactics involving a Chocobo support unit that honestly doesn't feel necessary.

Their monster skill is... Haste?  That's seriously it?  :/  Some of the Monster Skills in 1.3 were seriously ridiculous until they got redone (and now I don't know how balanced or imbalanced they are because I'm not touching 1.3 again until 1.3035 comes out and I can test drive all my new toys at once) but that's not even worth it if it's Self+1, even if it's 100% rate.

Goblin - Grunts of the monster world, specializing in melee range attacks.  

Reaction 1: Meatbone Slash
Reaction 2: Counter

Tier 1: Attack / Magic Hammer / Goblin Punch* / ???
Tier 2: Attack / Zap / Magic Hammer / ???
Teir 3: Attack / Zap / Goblin Punch* / ???

Magic Hammer - 1 range attack, deals 50% MP damage.  80+% chance to work, P.Ev-able
Goblin Punch - 1 range attack, dealing damage in the difference in their HP.  50%+ success rate.
Zap - 3 range 1 AoE attack dealing MA*Y lightning damage, with a possible Stop proc
???? - ????

Meatbone Slash... I guess it's React: Goblin Punch.

Magic Hammer needs more range to be useful personally, since once the Goblin's at range-1 you want them attacking or using Goblin Punch, not trying to Magic Hammer a mage that's already dropped shit on their heads.

Zap makes me think you've been in my notes.

Bomb - Your fiery friend and mine, these lovable little scamps specialize in fire damage.

Reaction 1: Crit Quick
Reaction 2: Caution

Tier 1: Attack / Spark / Eruption* / Drench
Tier 2: Attack / Spark / Self Destruct / Drench
Tier 3: Attack / Eruption* / Self Destruct / Drench

Spark - Self AoE 2 fire damage, healing self and hurting everything around it
Eruption - 3 range single target fire attack, dealing MA*Y damage
Self Destruct - deals HP difference in self AoE 2, inflicting oil in the process
Drench - 3 range 2 AoE with smart targetting - inflicts Oil and/or Slow (seperate) at about 75% success rate each

It's all basic, so I can't say much.

Drench - huge area, but also seems hugely unreliable unless its unevadable.  Better than the Chocobo's Monster Skill by far but at the end of the day it's still Faithless Slow 2 that sometimes tosses Oil on for funsies.

Don't put Spark and Self Destruct on the same set unless you make Bombs weak to Fire so the healing is large enough to matter.

Panthers - Status-heavy kitties.

Reaction 1: Counter
Reaction 2: Awareness

Tier 1: Attack /Poison Nail / Screech / ???
Tier 2: Attack / Poison Nail / Blaster* / ???
Tier 3: Attack / Screech / Blaster* / ???

Attack - Normal attack
Screech - 2 range single target -- cancels Charging on a unit, dealing 33% HP damage to it in the process.  Max success rate (faith based)
Poison Nail - 4 range single target - inflicts poison at 100%.  Unevadeable
Blaster - 3 range single target - Randomly inflicts Stop, Petrify, or Don't Move onto the target.  ~60%+ success rate

Why are you using Death over 2D for Screech exactly?

Everything else is again standardish.

Squids - Intelligent and misunderstood creatures of the deep.  

Reaction 1: Counter Magic
Reaction 2: Counter Flood

Tier 1: Attack / Negation / Odd Soundwave / Transference
Tier 2: Attack / Negation  / Mind Blast / Transference
Tier 3: Attack / Odd Soundwave / Mind Blast / Transference

Attack - Yeah
Negation - 3 range 1 AoE ability that dispels beneficial effects from enemies
Mind Blast - 3 range single target dealing MA*Y non-elemental damage with a Don't Act proc
Odd Soundwave - 3 range single target Faith-based ability that inflicts either confusion or berserk
Transference - Squid manipulates time to cause their ally to immediately take another turn.  ~100% Quick effect

So Dispel, standard MA damage with lucky proc, Status skill that seems to needlessly require Faith.  Mmk.

Transference, why the fuck is that a Monster Skill?  Can it hit anything on the map or have a solid range combined with an Effect Area?

Skeletons - Undead and loving it.

Reaction 1: Condemn
Reaction 2: Caution

Tier 1: Necrotic Touch / Aqua Soul* / Horrify / Beckon
Tier 2: Necrotic Touch / Aqua Soul* / Ice Soul / Beckon
Tier 3: Necrotic Touch / Horrify / Ice Soul / Beckon

Necrotic Touch - Attack with a chance to inflict Undead
Aqua Soul - 3 range single target dealing MA*Y damage; water ele
Horrify - 2 range 1 AoE 0 vert tol - Slows targets with high success rate
Ice Soul - 3 range single target dealing MA*Y damage; ice ele
Beckon - Persuades fellow undead to join the cause.  Undead-only Invite skill with 30%+ success rate

Why the fuck does one of the Skeletons have two -Soul moves?  Tier 1 and Tier 3 are carbon copies with a slightly different Element.

Horrify - so it's Slow without the Faith factor and I think poorer range?  :/

Beckon - So, I need a guy with Monster Skill, land a lucky proc or sport an Oracle, get a worthwhile Enemy under Undead status, get him, the Monster Skiller, and the Skeleton all close together with the Monster Skiller and Skeleton being both adjacent and on roughly the same height... for a 30-35%ish chance to land my skill?  I know it's Invite and all and I'll admit it's a cool idea with a ton of flavor, but it is ridiculously impractical and something I would honestly never use unless I was using Monster Skill for something else and had this situation occur by accident.

Ghouls - Tormented souls, and misery loves company.  

Reaction 1: Damage Split
Reaction 2: MA-Save

Tier 1: Throw Spirit / Drain Touch* / Irreverence  / Dark Wave
Tier 2: Throw Spirit / Drain Touch* / Possess / Dark Wave
Tier 3: Throw Spirit / Irreverence / Possess / Dark Wave

Throw Spirit - 3 range attack
Drain Touch* - 1 range ability which drains 33% of the targets Max MP
Irreverence - 3 range single target damage; Dark elemental which deals more damage the more faithless the target is
Possess - 4 range ability which attempts to Charm an enemy.  Persevering.
Dark Wave - 1 Range 1 AoE dealing MA*X damage (also drastically healing the ghost in the process)

Ghosts are actually pretty cool.  Irreverence and Possess are rather unique and useful.  

Dark Wave, however... even if that's smart targeted, that's all the hell of making a Monster Skill setup work to hit what's usually only going to be one enemy, if that, and heal self.  Definitely doesn't seem worth it at all.  EDIT: I misread it slightly, it can extend for up to two panel range, but it would have to be smart targeted and pretty great at damage considering I have to give up my Support on a human unit and place two units in close range of the enemy.

Flotiball - MA-heavy foes with a perchance for status infliction.   Rough foil to Ghost

Reaction 1: Condemn
Reaction 2: Counter Magic

Flotiball: Attack / Hypnosis /Doom* / Light Whisper
Ahriman: Attack /Hypnosis / Gaze / Light Whisper
Plague: Attack / Doom* / Gaze / Light Whisper

Hyponsis - 2 range ability, MA+X chance to inflict either confusion or charm
Doom - 2 range ability, MA+X chance to inflict Death Sentence
Gaze - 5 range single target ability dealing non-elemental damage.  Charge time + faith based
Light Whisper - 4 range + 1 AoE ability randomly dealing Holy and MA-based damage to the area

Hypnosis should inflict Sleep over Confusion.

Doom is meh unless Death Sentence expires more quickly and the hit rate is solid. Otherwise the Ahriman just walked in range to get itself killed while giving plenty of time to allow the player to move the inflicted unit somewhere they can easily damage control things.

Why the hell is Gaze Faith based?  

Light Whisper... there's nothing wrong with it and it looks like the first Monster Skill I'd actually use out of these, but where the hell did the inspiration come from?  Looks entirely out of left field.

Juravis - Mobile and speedy, with a nice mix of status, self-buffs, and ranged AoE.

Reaction 1: Speed Save
Reaction 2: Projectile Guard

Juravis: Attack / Beak / Shine Lover / Feather Bomb
Steel Hawk: Attack / Beak / Tornado / Feather Bomb
Cockatoris: Attack / Shine Lover / Tornado / Feather Bomb

Beak: 1 range MA+X chance to petrify targets
Shine Lover: self-only haste+regen
Tornado: 3 range + 1 AoE wind damage
Feather Bomb: 6 range MA*Y

Speed Save?  Really?

I love how they get Shine Lover but Chocobos need Monster Skill to just get Haste.

Otherwise fine, though with Tornado you've again stolen your way slightly into my notes...

Uribo - Lovable little scamps, boasting mostly defensive abilities.  

Reaction 1: HP Restore
Reaction 2: Counter

Uribo: Attack / Terrific / Radiant / ???
Porky: Attack / Terrific / Humble / ???
Wildbow: Attack / Radiant / Humble / ???

Terrific: 1 range MA+X charm
Radiant: 2 range ability that cleanses the target of status ailments, healing them for 33% of their health in the process
Humble: 1 range ability that revives fallen allies at 70% HP
??? - Hell if I know what the real ability will be but it'll be called Some Pig.

Just us the original names for Terrific / Humble. :/

Radiant seems okay I suppose.

Woodmen: Specializing in self-AoE effects.  Very defensive-oriented.  

Reaction 1: Counter Flood
Reaction 2: Caution

Woodman: Leaf Dance* / Regeneration / Barrier Spirit / ?Pruning?
Treant: Leaf Dance* / Regeneration / Mending Spirit / ?Pruning?
Taiju: Leaf Dance* / Regeneration / Rebirth / ?Pruning?

Leaf Dance - Self AoE 2 dealing earth-elemental damage to all enemies within range
Regeneration - Self AoE 2 granting the Regen status to all allies within range
Barrier Spirit - Self AoE 2 granting either Protect or Shell to all allies within range
Mending Spirit - Self AoE 2 healing both the body and mind of all allies within range
Rebirth - Self AoE 2 reviving all allies within range at very low health
Pruning - Map-wide effect that removes Protect, Shell, and/or Regen from allies but heals them for 100% HP

"Very defensive-oriented" - What the fuck are they doing with Counter Flood then?

Otherwise its fine I guess, but they've basically got Choco Guard 2.0 going on right down to the random element.

Bull Demon - Damage-heavy foes, with a good spread of melee, AoE, and status.  

Reaction 1: PA Save
Reaction 2: Counter

Bull Demon: Attack / Holy / Wave Around* / Tremble
Minotaur: Attack / Wave Around* / Berserk / Tremble
Sacred: Attack / Berserk / Mimic Titan / Tremble

Holy - Priest version, faith/MA based damage
Wave Around - PA-based self AoE 1 damage
Berserk - 3 range single target MA+X chance to inflict Berserk on either itself or target
Mimic Titan - MA-based self AoE 2, dealing Earth damage
Tremble - MA-based attack dealing damage through 5 total range (earth slashish)

Berserk - "on either itself or target"?  How did you rig this up?

Rest is yeah.

Morbols - Quite the hybrid nowadays.  

Reaction 1: Counter
Reaction 2: Awareness

Morbol: Attack / Drain Tentacle / Goo / Bio
Ochu: Attack / Drain Tentacle / Bad Breath / Bio
Great Morbol:  Attack / Goo / Bad Breath / Bio

Drain Tentacle: Weapon strike with HP absorb effect
Goo: 4 range single target MA-based damage with a poison proc
Bad Breath: Self-AoE of 2 dealing an array of status effects

Attack and Drain Tentacle on the same set is redunant and you know it.  You may as well give them all Drain Tentacle / Goo / Bad Breath / Bio if this is your plan, they'd be better off.  There's no reason to use the tier 1 Morbol, and while Drain Tentacle and Bad Breath together seems alluring, it basically means you only have two skills so the Great Morbol will almost always be the best of the bunch to use in terms of skills because it has range, melee, and Bad Breath all in one set.

It would've been cool for you to define exactly what "Bio" refers to. I know you consolidated all the Bio spells into about 3 Spells total, but it kinda sucks to have to go look that up especially since that still doesn't tell what the range and area are, meaning I can't evaluate whether Monster Skilling with Morbols is worth it.

Behemoths - Damage-heavy monsters.  

Reaction 1: Critical Quick
Reaction 2: Caution

Behemoth: Attack / Roar* / Gigaflare / Blaze
King Behemoth: Attack / Roar* / Lifebreak / Blaze
Dark Behemoth: Attack / Gigaflare / Lifebreak / Blaze

Roar - Unevadable melee attack - slightly weaker than standard attack
Gigaflare - 3 range 2 AoE MA-based damage
Life Break - 2 range single target dealing damage in HP difference
Blaze - 4 range 3 AoE dealing MA-based damage to everything in the area

My only issue with this is that Blaze can very easily nail the Monster Skiller.  It's another usable Monster Skill at last regardless though, even if it seems a bit redundant as its Gigaflare 2.0.

Dragon - gain some Fa-based human spells.  Only PA component is their normal attack (which still hurts);

Reaction 1: Dragon Spirit
Reaction 2: Caution

Dragon: Attack / Lit Breath / Shatter / Mega Breath
Blue Dragon: Attack / Ice Breath* / Wall / Mega Breath
Red Dragon: Attack / Flame Breath / Reraise / Mega Breath

Lit/Ice/Flame Breath - 2 range MA-based elemental damage
Shatter - Knight; cancels a units defending/protect/shell and harms them for 33% HP damage
Wall - Priest; provides protect and shell to a target
Reraise - Priest; provides Reraise to a target
Mega Breath - 3 range MA-based tri-elemental damage

Did you just run out of ideas giving them Shatter/Wall/Reraise?  Or is it a skill slot thing?  Regardless, toss Reraise for something else, they have fucking Dragon Spirit innate and Red Dragons aren't exactly Supporting units.

Hydras: 3 heads = triple the fun.

Reaction 1: Dragon Spirit
Reaction 2: Awareness

Hyudra: Triple Attack / Triple Flame / Triple Thunder / D-Barrier
Hydra: Triple Attack / Triple Flame / Dark Whisper / D-Barrier
Tiamat: Triple Attack / Triple Thunder / Dark Whisper / D-Barrier

Triple Attack - 3-way 1-panel PA-based attack
Triple Flame - 3-way 2-panel MA-based attack
Triple Thunder - 3-range AoE 1 MA-based attack. randomly hits 3 times
Dark Whisper - 3-range AoE 1 MA-based attack, randomly hits 3 times.  Hits harder than triple thunder but has higher vert tol

Nifty edit to Triple Flame, but it seems a tiny bit undermined because Triple Thunder and Dark Whisper are still counterparts.  Dragon Barrier yeah, it's not something I'd go out of my way to equip Monster Skill for most likely, but if I'm running something like a Behemoth that has a huge and worthwhile Monster Skill, I'd be inclined to use a Hydra class even if I wouldn't normally if only for the extra synergy and the fact a Hydra class with all those buffs is tearing a hole in something, so it passes well enough.



Not a bad start, mostly Monster Skills need work and the Morbols got kinda flopped.  Your Reactions also didn't seem to be spread out all that much, there was a lot of redundancy going on.  Lots of Caution and Awareness, which I guess work as default "secondary" Reactions... but there's also a lot of Counter, 2-3 instances of Critical Quick, etc.  Both Dragon families also just have Dragon Spirit and an incredibly common secondary Reaction... eh.  Also, animals have no God, remember?

Maybe I'm being an overly critical dick but I have high standards.  :p
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Eternal [Posts: 3016]
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  • [December 23, 2010, 01:51:27 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 01:51:27 PM »
I'm loving some of these monster skills, particularly the Ghosts'. Mind if I use some of these for Parted Ways? I'm at a loss for monster skills.

"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 23, 2010, 02:50:06 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 02:50:06 PM »
Quote
Maybe I'm being an overly critical dick but I have high standards.  :p

Oh, indeed.  I was looking forward to your post :)  I'm going out of town today and I'll be back in a few days, so I'll give the wall of text reply then.

@Eternal - go for it dude

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 27, 2010, 01:33:44 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 01:33:44 AM »
Aaaand, back.  On a sidenote forgive the X's all over the place -- balancing monster and human MA relative to HP scaling is a bitch with the blue mage in play.  Fuckin BM's.

Quote
Do they still have elemental weaknesses? Perhaps it would be a good idea to include monster status immunities as well.

Yes, the weaknesses are still around.  Most of the monsters that are weak to something also have an absorb, and many of the absorbers are doubly weak for healing funsies.  I'll update the OP with changes from this post and ele and immunities stuff shortly.

Quote
Only 3 range on Choco Meteor really still does leave them "in the thick of things."

I dislike Choco Guard on principle that you need to toss a coin and hope you get the damage reducer you want, adding a luck element to tactics involving a Chocobo support unit that honestly doesn't feel necessary.

Their monster skill is... Haste?  That's seriously it?  :/  Some of the Monster Skills in 1.3 were seriously ridiculous until they got redone (and now I don't know how balanced or imbalanced they are because I'm not touching 1.3 again until 1.3035 comes out and I can test drive all my new toys at once) but that's not even worth it if it's Self+1, even if it's 100% rate.

3 range is the standard range for "range" -- it keeps them out of melee so they're less likely to be swarmed.  They have rather absurd move so I'm leery to give them 4.  Understood on the guard/haste then... may as well go two birds one stone?  Hee... birds.

Tier 1: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Esuna / Choco Guard
Tier 2: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Haste / Choco Guard
Tier 3: Choco Meteor / Choco Esuna / Choco Haste / Choco Guard

Choco haste - self AoE 1 with 1 or 0 vert tol at ~85% or 100% success rate
Choco Guard - self AoE 1 with 2 vert tol - Protect and Shell to self+allies

Works better, maybe?

Quote
Magic Hammer needs more range to be useful personally, since once the Goblin's at range-1 you want them attacking or using Goblin Punch, not trying to Magic Hammer a mage that's already dropped shit on their heads.

Zap makes me think you've been in my notes.

I'm guessing Magic Hammer is there to try to stop Wizards from Ice Bombing them? Although if it was, it would have to be ranged. I'm not really sure what Goblins are supposed to do with Zap though. Seems a little out of their element, being magical and lightning elemental and all. Anti-Squid duty? Do they even have any MA to run it off of? Perhaps Goblins could benefit from having a Self Protect/Regen Spell? As for a Monster Skill, how about their old Goblin Punch from 1.3?

Meh, being a melee specialist is overrated.  Magic Hammer can gain some range to see use np.  

Zap is more a throwback from FF4's Trickster than anything else, but also gave them a ranged+AoE option -- it's some nice peppering before entering melee.  They've got moderate MA -- its nothing special.  Think of it as like... Elemental.

Quote
Bombs all basic, so I can't say much.

Drench - huge area, but also seems hugely unreliable unless its unevadable.  Better than the Chocobo's Monster Skill by far but at the end of the day it's still Faithless Slow 2 that sometimes tosses Oil on for funsies.

Don't put Spark and Self Destruct on the same set unless you make Bombs weak to Fire so the healing is large enough to matter.

Bombs are certainly weak+absorb to fire.  Their MS can get a success rate boost, I suppose.  

Quote
Why are you using Death over 2D for Screech exactly?

Everything else is again standardish.

Damage output, mostly -- though 33% does seem low in retrospect.  66%?  

Quote
So Dispel, standard MA damage with lucky proc, Status skill that seems to needlessly require Faith.  Mmk.

Transference, why the fuck is that a Monster Skill?  Can it hit anything on the map or have a solid range combined with an Effect Area?

Odd soundwave is faith-based because transference is too.  Even at max success rate if the caster has 40 faith or bad compat so I figure a bit of reinforcement on the the faith front would be a good thing.  As for transference itself, it isn't AoE (multi-target quicking pairs = game broken) nor map-wide but it does have 6 range.  It's a monster skill because Quick is awesome and reliable Quick even moreso.

Quote
Why the fuck does one of the Skeletons have two -Soul moves?  Tier 1 and Tier 3 are carbon copies with a slightly different Element.

Horrify - so it's Slow without the Faith factor and I think poorer range?  :/

Beckon - So, I need a guy with Monster Skill, land a lucky proc or sport an Oracle, get a worthwhile Enemy under Undead status, get him, the Monster Skiller, and the Skeleton all close together with the Monster Skiller and Skeleton being both adjacent and on roughly the same height... for a 30-35%ish chance to land my skill?  I know it's Invite and all and I'll admit it's a cool idea with a ton of flavor, but it is ridiculously impractical and something I would honestly never use unless I was using Monster Skill for something else and had this situation occur by accident.

Natch.  

So...
- replace one of the souls with a PA-based ability?  PA*WP with a 100% chance to blind?
- up horrify to 100% with M.Ev
- do... something to Beckon.  I know I want to keep it as an undead-only move, and preferably offensive.  Invite is very rare and powerful, and the fact that this needs either a 1-2 setup from oracle or sheer luck means it can't be used as a ninja-like opener (which is what caused the great Invite nerf of 1.3).  100% Undead-only (AoE) sleep is an option, I suppose.  

Quote
Ghosts are actually pretty cool.  Irreverence and Possess are rather unique and useful.  

Dark Wave, however... even if that's smart targeted, that's all the hell of making a Monster Skill setup work to hit what's usually only going to be one enemy, if that, and heal self.  Definitely doesn't seem worth it at all.  EDIT: I misread it slightly, it can extend for up to two panel range, but it would have to be smart targeted and pretty great at damage considering I have to give up my Support on a human unit and place two units in close range of the enemy.

Yes, ghosts still have teleport.

Bingo on the dark wave.  Half of the skill is that it heals the caster ghost to max, but some smart-targetting getting thrown into the mix seems like a good thing for monster skill.  

Quote
Hypnosis should inflict Sleep over Confusion.

Doom is meh unless Death Sentence expires more quickly and the hit rate is solid. Otherwise the Ahriman just walked in range to get itself killed while giving plenty of time to allow the player to move the inflicted unit somewhere they can easily damage control things.

Why the hell is Gaze Faith based?  

Light Whisper... there's nothing wrong with it and it looks like the first Monster Skill I'd actually use out of these, but where the hell did the inspiration come from?  Looks entirely out of left field.

Good call on the hypnosis, I'll change that.
Death Sentence... expires on a units AT O.o.  Hit rate is certainly solid
Gaze... I dunno.  Back to MA-based, one less random thing to mess with.
Light Whisper -- pretty much left field.  Dark Whisper looked lonely and these seemed like good candidates.

Quote
Speed Save?  Really?

I love how they get Shine Lover but Chocobos need Monster Skill to just get Haste.

Otherwise fine, though with Tornado you've again stolen your way slightly into my notes...

Speed Save is awesome!  Though I suppose their secondary can be beefier to make up for lack of upfront dealings.  Maybe hamedo?  Choco's got their haste fixed hopefully and past that "good enough" works for me for now.

Quote
Just us the original names for Terrific / Humble. :/
Uribos: Would having their MS be some form of MBarrier be too much?

You are no fun  :(

Regarding MBarrier for MS -- too good imo.  Maybe just 100% pure reraise?  Might be game breaking but we'll see once its in play.

Quote
"Very defensive-oriented" - What the fuck are they doing with Counter Flood then?

Otherwise its fine I guess, but they've basically got Choco Guard 2.0 going on right down to the random element.

Does prune require actually having Protect/Shell/Regen on to work, or does it work irregardless?

Well, their skillset is defensive-oriented :p.  They're trees and naturey and no other monster has counter flood.  Barrier spirit is basically Kiyomori reborn, if nothing else, which is fine given the AoE.  2 AoE protect and shell in a single application is too strong, so eh.

Prune requires regen/protect/shell to work sadly.  Like beckoning it requires some setup, but at least here the effect is mapwide.  In fact if Barrier Spirit gets changed it'll just be Regen, which I'm tempted to do anyways because losing Protect and Shell can suck.  

Quote
Berserk - "on either itself or target"?  How did you rig this up?

Rest is yeah.

There's no rigging -- the AI still views berserk as a negative status.  It's just that when the player has control of a bull demon it can berserk itself.  

Quote
Attack and Drain Tentacle on the same set is redunant and you know it.  You may as well give them all Drain Tentacle / Goo / Bad Breath / Bio if this is your plan, they'd be better off.  There's no reason to use the tier 1 Morbol, and while Drain Tentacle and Bad Breath together seems alluring, it basically means you only have two skills so the Great Morbol will almost always be the best of the bunch to use in terms of skills because it has range, melee, and Bad Breath all in one set.

It would've been cool for you to define exactly what "Bio" refers to. I know you consolidated all the Bio spells into about 3 Spells total, but it kinda sucks to have to go look that up especially since that still doesn't tell what the range and area are, meaning I can't evaluate whether Monster Skilling with Morbols is worth it.

I... actually didn't think about that but thanks for assuming I'm more thoughtful than I actually am.  Drain tentacle as the standard attack does seem like a good twist, and as of right now there are ability slots, so may as well.     This of course prompts that morbols need another skill now, which makes me a sad panda.  I don't like having all 3 monster ranks with the same skillset because then all morbols would be identical.  Perhaps a melee-range ability with the work formula?  The backlash damage is negated by the drain attack.

As for Bio, apologies for not listing the ability description -- it's a 4 range 2 AoE ability with smart targetting featuring seperate blind, silence, and oil procs.  

Quote
My only issue with this is that Blaze can very easily nail the Monster Skiller.  It's another usable Monster Skill at last regardless though, even if it seems a bit redundant as its Gigaflare 2.0.

True on the redundancy bit.  Its too big of an AoE to be smart targetting, but being fire-elemental is does allow for some ally absorb funsies.

Quote
Did you just run out of ideas giving them Shatter/Wall/Reraise?  Or is it a skill slot thing?  Regardless, toss Reraise for something else, they have fucking Dragon Spirit innate and Red Dragons aren't exactly Supporting units.

It's more that I stole some stuff from FFTA.  There's still some skillslots left.  Reraise seemed superior to a gather power or dragon-power ability, but considering there's two sources already from generics I suppose it's a touch generic.  Maybe oil breath?  

Quote
Nifty edit to Triple Flame, but it seems a tiny bit undermined because Triple Thunder and Dark Whisper are still counterparts.  Dragon Barrier yeah, it's not something I'd go out of my way to equip Monster Skill for most likely, but if I'm running something like a Behemoth that has a huge and worthwhile Monster Skill, I'd be inclined to use a Hydra class even if I wouldn't normally if only for the extra synergy and the fact a Hydra class with all those buffs is tearing a hole in something, so it passes well enough.

D-Barrier? I think you meant D-Whisper. Otherwise, I love it.

I couldn't think about how to separate triple flame, triple thunder, and dark whisper without running into redundancy somewhere without messing them up in the process.  mmm... I'll think on it some more.

Augh, another MS I left off the list.  DBarrier is a dragon-only M-Barrier.

Quote
Not a bad start, mostly Monster Skills need work and the Morbols got kinda flopped.  Your Reactions also didn't seem to be spread out all that much, there was a lot of redundancy going on.  Lots of Caution and Awareness, which I guess work as default "secondary" Reactions... but there's also a lot of Counter, 2-3 instances of Critical Quick, etc.  Both Dragon families also just have Dragon Spirit and an incredibly common secondary Reaction... eh.  Also, animals have no God, remember?

True... needs a little more work all around, but you helped out some so thanks!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 01:37:23 AM by philsov »
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 27, 2010, 02:38:32 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2010, 02:38:32 AM »
Aaaand, back.  On a sidenote forgive the X's all over the place -- balancing monster and human MA relative to HP scaling is a bitch with the blue mage in play.  Fuckin BM's.

Your max human MA is too high. :D

Yes, the weaknesses are still around.  Most of the monsters that are weak to something also have an absorb, and many of the absorbers are doubly weak for healing funsies.  I'll update the OP with changes from this post and ele and immunities stuff shortly.

I don't feel the elemental weaknesses, but the latter is another thing right out of my book. >.>

3 range is the standard range for "range" -- it keeps them out of melee so they're less likely to be swarmed.  They have rather absurd move so I'm leery to give them 4.  Understood on the guard/haste then... may as well go two birds one stone?  Hee... birds.

Tier 1: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Esuna / Choco Guard
Tier 2: Choco Meteor / Choco Cure* / Choco Haste / Choco Guard
Tier 3: Choco Meteor / Choco Esuna / Choco Haste / Choco Guard

Choco haste - self AoE 1 with 1 or 0 vert tol at ~85% or 100% success rate
Choco Guard - self AoE 1 with 2 vert tol - Protect and Shell to self+allies

3 Range, the opponent can usually saunter down and bop you in the head.  Unless "out of melee range" = "not triggering counter and dodging 2 base units."

Chocobos look better though, but I'd give Choco Guard the 2 Effect Area since it actually has a vaguely hard trigger to meet compared to Kiyomori and co.

Damage output, mostly -- though 33% does seem low in retrospect.  66%?

The output itself is fine because it disrupts skills at a range, I was more commenting on the odd formula choice.

As for transference itself, it isn't AoE (multi-target quicking pairs = game broken) nor map-wide but it does have 6 range.

6 Range justifies Monster Skill I suppose.

Natch. 

- replace one of the souls with a PA-based ability?  PA*WP with a 100% chance to blind?
- up horrify to 100% with M.Ev
- do... something to Beckon.  I know I want to keep it as an undead-only move, and preferably offensive.  Invite is very rare and powerful, and the fact that this needs either a 1-2 setup from oracle or sheer luck means it can't be used as a ninja-like opener (which is what caused the great Invite nerf of 1.3).  100% Undead-only (AoE) sleep is an option, I suppose.

Necrotic Touch is already a PA based hit.  Whoever got it and the Ice Soul replacement would have no magic or range.  You used a very Vanilla-like distribution though so it's hard to get something that works and isn't redundant on the guy who ends up with both it and Aqua Soul.  Horrify to max percent works I suppose... it's still Faithless Slow with less Vert, but the hit rate disparity can be large enough to justify.  Otherwise you could just give Skeletons Slow or Slow 2 in the vein of your Dragons and save an ability slot.

The last bit is why I'd just remove Invite and make people use Train to get their monsters.  Headaches, many are saved.  Sizable Range Sleep with Area for a Monster Skill works.  The Undead requirement still makes it a bit hard to use but if the situation comes up where it can trigger it has a far higher chance of actually being relevant.

Death Sentence... expires on a units AT O.o.  Hit rate is certainly solid

I mean the count for Death Sentence being lower than 3.  Otherwise Ahriman walks into Melee range, casts Doom, maybe hits, dies, player has time to get the Doomed unit somewhere they can heal it.  Also AI dipshittery.  If Death Sentence has a lower count, this isn't so bad, I forget if you modded it for ASM'd.

Speed Save is awesome!  Though I suppose their secondary can be beefier to make up for lack of upfront dealings.  Maybe hamedo?  Choco's got their haste fixed hopefully and past that "good enough" works for me for now.

Speed Save = Throw Stone or Dagger hurling + Shine Lover > QUAD TURN EVERYTHING LOLOLOL.

I guess it's not as bad on a Juravis than it is on a human but still, one of ASM'd's main themes is lower Speeds, and Juravis already get top Speed to start with and 100% Self-Haste, so it only takes a few triggerings for things to begin getting very dumb.

You are no fun  :(

I would be but you even admitted your names are bad. :(

Well, their skillset is defensive-oriented :p.  They're trees and naturey and no other monster has counter flood.

Quote from: Squids
Reaction 1: Counter Magic
Reaction 2: Counter Flood

Well huh.

There's no rigging -- the AI still views berserk as a negative status.  It's just that when the player has control of a bull demon it can berserk itself. 

Then your description is misleading because it sounded like it randomly hit the caster and/or the target.

Perhaps a melee-range ability with the work formula?  The backlash damage is negated by the drain attack.

It would need to be rather powerful to justify use over Drain Tentacle, but I suppose.

As for Bio, apologies for not listing the ability description -- it's a 4 range 2 AoE ability with smart targetting featuring seperate blind, silence, and oil procs.

And does damage I assume?

It's more that I stole some stuff from FFTA.  There's still some skillslots left.  Reraise seemed superior to a gather power or dragon-power ability, but considering there's two sources already from generics I suppose it's a touch generic.  Maybe oil breath?

Give it a generic negative status based skill to keep things consistent.  One cancels positive, one adds positive, one adds negative.

True... needs a little more work all around, but you helped out some so thanks!

No problem.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 28, 2010, 11:03:28 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 11:03:28 PM »
(I'll fix any typos later given how long it took to go through everything what I still have to do.)


Glad to see this is picking back up, though I suppose I'm one to talk considering I haven't worked on anything in 8 months.

(Speaking of which, you still have my equipment list, RavenofRazgriz. I would kindly ask you to delete/destroy that if you've not the time to comment on it. Good to see you around again, regardless, though.)

As much as I like multi-quoting things into oblivion, given that this new forum still kind of gives me a headache just looking at, I'm just going to use a list:


  • Consolidation of Tiers: Certainly different than I what I was trying to do, but I still think it's a better solution than the current (read: 1.3) solution...depending on how things work out with ability distribution.
  • Counter List: I find it rather funny how little of these you actually use between the monsters. Personally, I think that Caution kind of sucks for monsters unless something huge has changed in the past 8 months. I mean, yeah, some of those Reactions suck (lol, Gilgame Heart), but you could certainly be more varied as Raven pointed out. Also, isn't Awareness a reaction-less Reaction in the same vain as Abandon, Finger Guard and Projectile Guard?
  • Regarding Stats: May we know these breakpoints? Kind of difficult to judge without these, but then again, given how rusty I am, I suppose you telling me would mean very little at this point.
  • Chocobos: Find it weird that this is only monster to have its elemental attributes posted despite being completely neutral to everything. Not much to say about that given Raven's suggestions. I'm curious whether Black Chocobos still have Fly given your consolidation of tiers.
  • Goblins: Yeah, I think that Magic Hammer probably needs to have a bit of distance. Even with the explanation, Zap seems a bit random--I keep picturing C. Viper's Thunder Knuckles. Heh. Maybe you could give Goblins Burning Kicks or Seismic Hammers then. Maybe Burst Time Monster Skill? Then again, I suppose Bull Demons already have that technically.
  • Bombs: Kind of boring, but expected. I actually kind of like the Monster Skill, but yeah, it needs to not able to be evaded to not be underwhelming.
  • Panthers: Despite not getting rid of it (I forget what I did), I've never really liked Blaster or, at least, the fact that it just randomly Petrifies, even if it has FF history. Other than that, kind of meh. I think I had trouble thinking of a monster skill for them as well (or at least the non-Vampire cats). Pretty meh, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
  • Squids: Similarly, I really hate Counter Flood on monsters or, at least, monsters with 1.3 MA. If you're normalizing MA, I guess it's fine then. It's going to take some use to Negation doing what Odd Soundwave used to do and Odd Soundwave doing what Mind Blast used to do, even if what Mind Blast does not makes sense (and is less all-or-nothing); I don't like Odd Soundwave being Faith-based, though. That said, I have to agree with Quick being...underwhelming. I know how much you like Quick--a lot--and all, but it just seems like it's going to be completely underwhelming or rather broken (since I'm guessing the ability is instant). It's rather difficult to balance Quick the less CT it has. I'm sure we all remember Smile's stupidity from FFTA, though due to needing Monster Skill, I guess it wouldn't be as bad (probably). Additionally, it just seems rather weird for the Squids to not have any Water-based abilities, but that's not really a huge thing.
  • Skeletons: Ha, Leslie Nielson reference. ...Damn, I miss that guy already. Anyway, yeah, I have to agree two Soul abilities, Horrify with anything less than 100% (if its M.EV) and rather-iffy Beckon after all the set-up is quite disappointing. Similarly, I have to agree with Raven that it's better to just get rid of all instances of Invite and only leave Train. Then again, I've always hated Invite, so that's not really a big surprise. I'd say get rid of Aqua Soul, up the damage on Ice Soul a bit, up Horrify to 100% w/ M.EV, some other decay-inducing/Blindness-inducing attack that has more range than Necrotic Touch and do...something else with Beckon. I'm guessing the only "Undead-only"-affecting formula that we have access to is still the one that uses SP+X% and only add status, right? Not really sure what to do with that....
  • Ghouls: Ha at us both having a Possession move. Anyway, I find it rather weird that Drain Touch drains MP. I mean, I understand why it's there (I guess), but given that Ghouls do nothing with the MP they have (monsters don't use MP [directly] and Ghouls don't have MP Switch) and have no particular magic inclination, whether being "weak" to it like 1.3. Blade Grasp ones or strong against it, it just seems...off. Not much else to say besides that.
  • Flotiball: Hmm...interesting. You also did a light-based, Faith-based approach to Ahrimans, so I kind of like Light Whisper, though at present it just feels like a wholesale rip off of Dark Whisper with the randomness, even without Sleep; I'm all for symmetrical opposites, but it seems it could be made more opposing. Speaking of Sleep, I find it weird that Hypnosis doesn't have a chance to proc it. Doom seems like it could do with a bit more range, especially with Condemn as the primary counter unless, of course, you lowered the count for Death Sentence or something. With that said, even having also done a Faith-based approach to Ahirman, Gaze seems really underwhelming, especially with charge time. Either make it Faith-based or make it generally more damn with charge time, but not both please.
  • Cockatrices: Ugh. Speed Save with that much mobility and damage-range seems like it's asking for trouble/even more annoyance. Otherwise, this is the first class I rather like, even if it's a lot of it is straight from 1.3. Always nice to see more Wind attacks.
  • Uribos: Hunh. Babe references. ...Not really much else to say since I always thought Uribos were a waste of space. If only they're was a way to easily replace them or something.... Anyway, since they're annoying little support buggers, I think if you want to go the Reraise route, maybe make it 100% self Reraise and go from there. Nothing really interested in them enough to try to think of something, to be honest.
  • Woodfolk: Very nice, even if I kind of have to agree with them having Counter Flood primarily being odd for something so defensive. Then again, giving your version Regenerator is kind of redundant, so.... Other than that, this is my favorite monster so far, but I've always kind of liked them despite them generally getting screwed over.
  • Bull Demons: Holy? ...Why does a Demon have Holy? I could maybe buy the Sacred getting it as a play on the name, but...really? It just seems so incongruous with everything else they have, especially since you point to them being able to Berserk themselves as a good thing. They lose their fire attack for Holy and their Monster Skill is just Earth Slash 2.0? I can't say I like that at all.
  • Marlboros: Agree with Raven about Drain Tentacle making Attack redundant. As for making Marlboros different, yeah, I had a problem with that too IIRC since I didn't want to use Moldball Virus. You could probably try doing something with Lick and going from there. Also, Counter on Marlboros is extremely boring. At least make it Hamedo given all those tentacles and eyes.
  • Behemoths: I can't say that I like Critical Quick on them, especially since they have still have a "Karma" attack, except unlike Bombs they don't die from it. Still, Lifebreak is less obnoxious than Ulmaguest from what I remember of it. If Blaze is indeed Fire-elemental (which it doesn't say), then I guess it's fine as it is.
  • Dragons: FFTA blows for a reason. I shouldn't really be one to talk given how many human and monster skills I overlapped to save/generate space, but yeah, at least get rid of Reraise on Red Dragons. I can't really say much more since I went a completely different direction than consolidation, so we're basically taking exact opposite approaches when it comes to Dragons. Oil Breath seems...weird.
  • Hydras: Haven't really changed, so there's nothing to comment on. D-Barrier--lol, Douchebag-Barrier is the first thing that came to mind even knowing what you meant--being Dragon-only MBarrier is also par for the course.


    Out of curiosity, since I might try to start my project back up, I have to ask if you made use of a generic monster attack that worked or if you just named things like Tentacle and Scratch Up "Attack" since there's no real difference between them. I'm asking because I remember trying to consolidate attacks for all the classes you could do it for, only for it to look like monsters (specifically Panthers) were trying to spaz-out and hump the enemy to death--I used Ahriman's Wing Attack.

    Regardless, as said above, it's good to see more work being done on this.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 01:16:58 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2010, 01:16:58 AM »
(Speaking of which, you still have my equipment list, RavenofRazgriz. I would kindly ask you to delete/destroy that if you've not the time to comment on it. Good to see you around again, regardless, though.)

I have it, and have a bit of time despite having probably 3-4 projects to comment/work on and life to deal with, so if it's not grossly out of date I can still comment if you like.  Life got in the way not long after you sent it to me, which is why my FFH activity basically bombed not long after.

As much as I like multi-quoting things into oblivion, given that this new forum still kind of gives me a headache just looking at, I'm just going to use a list:

LISTS ARE FOR THE WEAK.  (Yes I'm purposefully multiquoting you now.)

Out of curiosity, since I might try to start my project back up, I have to ask if you made use of a generic monster attack that worked or if you just named things like Tentacle and Scratch Up "Attack" since there's no real difference between them. I'm asking because I remember trying to consolidate attacks for all the classes you could do it for, only for it to look like monsters (specifically Panthers) were trying to spaz-out and hump the enemy to death--I used Ahriman's Wing Attack.

Use Choco Attack and swap the sound effect.  It should work.

(Yeah I ran out of stuff to multiquote.  Damn.)
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 02:52:49 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 02:52:49 AM »
Ah, I'll keep that in mind.

Also, I had figured as much about your situation, which is why I didn't flood your PM box or anything. Like I said, it's good to see that you're back.

(And, yes, lists are for the weak. I am ashamed.)

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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  • [December 29, 2010, 03:17:43 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 03:17:43 AM »
In FFV, Holy is obtained in the Fork Tower after beating Minotaur, who is Sekhret (Sacred)'s brother. Minotaur attempts to cast Holy, but doesn't have enough MP. I think that's what Phil is referencing.

"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 08:50:39 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 08:50:39 AM »
Also, I had figured as much about your situation, which is why I didn't flood your PM box or anything. Like I said, it's good to see that you're back.

Yeah, it's nice to be back.

If you want that Item list looked over still, I can do it after I finish a rather important project I'm working on that I'm half procrastinating on due to the mind-numbing redundancy involved in it.

In FFV, Holy is obtained in the Fork Tower after beating Minotaur, who is Sekhret (Sacred)'s brother. Minotaur attempts to cast Holy, but doesn't have enough MP. I think that's what Phil is referencing.

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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 06:12:21 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »
Woo quote sniping!

Quote
Your max human MA is too high. Happy

No, my HP is too high  :P  It's falling into the same category of most damage magic -- insanely good early on, good midgame, but falling short at endgame.  Buuut I think I've got it now, so...

Quote
3 Range, the opponent can usually saunter down and bop you in the head.  Unless "out of melee range" = "not triggering counter and dodging 2 base units."

Chocobos look better though, but I'd give Choco Guard the 2 Effect Area since it actually has a vaguely hard trigger to meet compared to Kiyomori and co.

Out of melee range = less likely to be attacked by multiple units when their turn comes up >_>.

Agreed on Choco Guard, 2 AoE it is.

Quote
Necrotic Touch is already a PA based hit.  Whoever got it and the Ice Soul replacement would have no magic or range.  ...

The last bit is why I'd just remove Invite and make people use Train to get their monsters.  Headaches, many are saved.  Sizable Range Sleep with Area for a Monster Skill works.  The Undead requirement still makes it a bit hard to use but if the situation comes up where it can trigger it has a far higher chance of actually being relevant.

I'll boost up the range on horrify, introduce a ranged blind effect with AoE and turn their MS in a wide-area sleep?

Quote
I mean the count for Death Sentence being lower than 3.  Otherwise Ahriman walks into Melee range, casts Doom, maybe hits, dies, player has time to get the Doomed unit somewhere they can heal it.  Also AI dipshittery.  If Death Sentence has a lower count, this isn't so bad, I forget if you modded it for ASM'd.

Not modded, but I don't think I'd change it if I could.  DS kills people at 1, so DS currently gives people two actions before they 100% die. 

Quote
Speed Save = Throw Stone or Dagger hurling + Shine Lover > QUAD TURN EVERYTHING LOLOLOL.

True.  Hmz

Quote
Well huh.  Something else has counter flood.

*Primary!

Quote
Then your description is misleading because it sounded like Berserk randomly hits the caster and/or the target.

I'll fix the desc then

Quote
And morlboro bio does damage I assume?

Heh.  Yes.

Quote
Give it a generic negative status based skill to keep things consistent.  One cancels positive, one adds positive, one adds negative.

That'd work, I suppose.

Quote
Counter List: I find it rather funny how little of these you actually use between the monsters. Personally, I think that Caution kind of sucks for monsters unless something huge has changed in the past 8 months. I mean, yeah, some of those Reactions suck (lol, Gilgame Heart), but you could certainly be more varied as Raven pointed out. Also, isn't Awareness a reaction-less Reaction in the same vain as Abandon, Finger Guard and Projectile Guard?

Eh, caution synergizes with global class evade and reduces further physical damage by 25, and it triggers against any kind of damage from any range.  It's rather weak but its a catch-all so it's something I consider prime for secondary.  And, yes, Awareness is a passive reaction, so it might be worthwhile to have as a third innate instead of a true reaction, but some monsters have other properties like cannot enter water and float/fly/teleport/ignore height.  Meh, cannot enter water is overrated.

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Regarding Stats: May we know these breakpoints? Kind of difficult to judge without these, but then again, given how rusty I am, I suppose you telling me would mean very little at this point.

All monster growth is identical -- 5 HP, 25 PA, 25 MA, and 170 Sp -- this is of course accelerated over the humans who max out at 7 / 40 / 40 / 190, but it's not like monsters can get two swords or def up or magic attack up so it's rather even.  Multipliers range from 100 to 180 for HP, 100 to 140 for MA, and 100 to 135 for speed.  I am, however, taking my own advice and diversifying stats some so they aren't completely identical, but there's still going to be a rough hierarchical system. 

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Find it weird that this is only monster to have its elemental attributes posted despite being completely neutral to everything. Not much to say about that given Raven's suggestions. I'm curious whether Black Chocobos still have Fly given your consolidation of tiers.

I started updating then I got distracted by something shiny.  And, no, black (and yellow) chocos both got ignore height.

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Goblins: Yeah, I think that Magic Hammer probably needs to have a bit of distance. Even with the explanation, Zap seems a bit random--I keep picturing C. Viper's Thunder Knuckles. Heh. Maybe you could give Goblins Burning Kicks or Seismic Hammers then. Maybe Burst Time Monster Skill? Then again, I suppose Bull Demons already have that technically.

*googles to find out what you're referring to*

Ah.  Heh.  Yes, magic hammer will be gaining some range.  Zap is... something generic and rangey/AoE to pepper people, really.  It's not a major attack but something to do when making the approach.  Burst Time would be AWESOME but I don't know if I can rig up animations for it.  Setup might be a pain, but oh noes tactics in a tactical game.

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I think I had trouble thinking of a monster skill for them as well (or at least the non-Vampire cats). Pretty meh, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

True.  I'll probably bring back blood suck or have some permutation of an HP drain attack.

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Additionally, it just seems rather weird for the Squids to not have any Water-based abilities, but that's not really a huge thing.

They may gain a water-based primary attack, but that'll be one of the last things to do once I square out exactly how many ability slots are left over -- currently there's 15 including all the post-parasite slots so it may come to fruition. 

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Ghouls don't have MP Switch

Hmmmmm :)

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Either make it Faith-based or make it generally more damn with charge time, but not both please.

Done and done.

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Babe references

Close.  So close. 

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I think if you want to go the Reraise route, maybe make it 100% self Reraise and go from there

Mmmm... I think if I go the self-only route there needs to be more than just reraise in play.  Maybe shell?

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Why does a Demon have Holy?

What eternal said >_>

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They lose their fire attack for Holy and their Monster Skill is just Earth Slash 2.0?

Hm.  Make their MS a super Blow Fire?  Still.... earth slash 2.0 but it's fire elemental!

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I can't say that I like Critical Quick on them, especially since they have still have a "Karma" attack,

~changing

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Oil Breath seems...weird.

Maybe a Don't Move or Don't Act effect?  Leaning more towards DA.

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I have to ask if you made use of a generic monster attack that worked or if you just named things like Tentacle and Scratch Up "Attack" since there's no real difference between them. I'm asking because I remember trying to consolidate attacks for all the classes you could do it for, only for it to look like monsters (specifically Panthers) were trying to spaz-out and hump the enemy to death--I used Ahriman's Wing Attack.

I haven't done animations and effects (it's at the bottom of the to-do list) but from earlier testing it's fine so long as the animation is something basic like 0A 00 00.  I don't think effect should make a difference but I'll defer to Raven on that point.

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 09:09:10 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 09:09:10 PM »
updated OP with changes so far, numbered the X's and Y's, got rid of some of the counter/caution, and update for ele qualities. 

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 29, 2010, 11:50:51 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 11:50:51 PM »
I just realized there's not even a multi-quote button. Joy.

In FFV, Holy is obtained in the Fork Tower after beating Minotaur, who is Sekhret (Sacred)'s brother. Minotaur attempts to cast Holy, but doesn't have enough MP. I think that's what Phil is referencing.

...Thanks for reminding I never finished FFV despite liking it.

*potentially steals this for Belias*

Yeah, it's nice to be back.

If you want that Item list looked over still, I can do it after I finish a rather important project I'm working on that I'm half procrastinating on due to the mind-numbing redundancy involved in it.

Eh, only if you've the time.

I was looking at the Equipment list (and my Lucavi list; dear Lord did I buff the hell out of them and monsters) last night and I was embarrassed to notice all the typos it has and all the things that still need to be tested after six months of not working on it at all.

Eh, caution synergizes with global class evade and reduces further physical damage by 25, and it triggers against any kind of damage from any range.  It's rather weak but its a catch-all so it's something I consider prime for secondary.  And, yes, Awareness is a passive reaction, so it might be worthwhile to have as a third innate instead of a true reaction, but some monsters have other properties like cannot enter water and float/fly/teleport/ignore height.  Meh, cannot enter water is overrated.

Yeah, Cannot Enter Water is kind of a waste of space. I think I got rid of it on everything or at least almost everything; seriously, Bombs having Cannot Enter Water when they have automatic Float? Waste of space.

For the record, I wasn't saying that Caution was bad, just that it's below average on monsters (even with the change to the Defend status) due to them not having M.EV. Also, that you were using it on most of the monsters.

All monster growth is identical -- 5 HP, 25 PA, 25 MA, and 170 Sp -- this is of course accelerated over the humans who max out at 7 / 40 / 40 / 190, but it's not like monsters can get two swords or def up or magic attack up so it's rather even.  Multipliers range from 100 to 180 for HP, 100 to 140 for MA, and 100 to 135 for speed.  I am, however, taking my own advice and diversifying stats some so they aren't completely identical, but there's still going to be a rough hierarchical system.  

...I'll take your word for it. Even when I was actually working on my patch, I was more focused on making equipment, abilities and classes viable before I even touched stats and since I never finished the former....

I started updating then I got distracted by something shiny.  And, no, black (and yellow) chocos both got ignore height.

Hmm...can't say I really like this, but it's your game and it's not a huge problem. Do Red Chocobos have something different movement-wise then? Or did you just forget to mention them?

*googles to find out what you're referring to*

Ah.  Heh.  Yes, magic hammer will be gaining some range.  Zap is... something generic and rangey/AoE to pepper people, really.  It's not a major attack but something to do when making the approach.  Burst Time would be AWESOME but I don't know if I can rig up animations for it.  Setup might be a pain, but oh noes tactics in a tactical game.

Burst Time seriously is probably already best captured by Mimic Titan. Besides, you're not really missing much since she takes forever to land after it and for some reason does the whole animation even when it misses or gets blocked.

...Anyway, I actually think that 1.3 Goblins were great outside of the whole "distant Goblin Punch" thing. Not sure if you could maybe draw from that even though they were essentially just monster Monks.

True.  I'll probably bring back blood suck or have some permutation of an HP drain attack.

Good to hear.

They may gain a water-based primary attack, but that'll be one of the last things to do once I square out exactly how many ability slots are left over -- currently there's 15 including all the post-parasite slots so it may come to fruition.

Fair enough.

Hmmmmm :)

I'd call you a bastard, but I think I gave Ghouls MP Switch as well.

We're horrible people, aren't we?

Done and done.

Looks better. (Pun not intended.)

Close.  So close.

Crap. Charlotte's Web? I really don't remember much from either of those stories.

Mmmm... I think if I go the self-only route there needs to be more than just reraise in play.  Maybe shell?

Shell seems like it'd good be given the aforementioned lack of M.EV and covering more things than Reflect. I guess you could potentially go with Protect as well, but I'd probably avoid both.

What eternal said >_>

Liar!

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Hm.  Make their MS a super Blow Fire?  Still.... earth slash 2.0 but it's fire elemental!

Hm. That's better, but not much given Fire Breath and how a bunch of monsters already have Fire elemental abilities readily.

Perhaps going with what Eternal said, maybe given them some Holy-based (physical) attack?

~changing

Haha! I think I gave them Counter and Counter Magic as well.

Maybe a Don't Move or Don't Act effect?  Leaning more towards DA.

Yeah, Don't Act seems like it would be fine. I think I made one Fire attack inflict Don't Act, but I can't remember what it was if I even did off the top of my head.

As for Oil Breath, I saying that more because it seems...phlegm-y (ew) and Bomb-worthy rather than outright bad.

I haven't done animations and effects (it's at the bottom of the to-do list) but from earlier testing it's fine so long as the animation is something basic like 0A 00 00.  I don't think effect should make a difference but I'll defer to Raven on that point.

Oh, okay. I'll keep that in mind.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:54:46 PM by The Damned »
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [December 30, 2010, 12:34:41 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2010, 12:34:41 AM »
No, my HP is too high  :P  It's falling into the same category of most damage magic -- insanely good early on, good midgame, but falling short at endgame.  Buuut I think I've got it now, so...

Well huh.  Never hit that problem, but I use a very strange scaling that requires Broad Sword to have 6 WP and Rune Blade to have 12 WP, so... yeah.

Out of melee range = less likely to be attacked by multiple units when their turn comes up >_>.

I suppose.

I'll boost up the range on horrify, introduce a ranged blind effect with AoE and turn their MS in a wide-area sleep?

That could work.

Not modded, but I don't think I'd change it if I could.  DS kills people at 1, so DS currently gives people two actions before they 100% die.

I see.  That's not as bad then for requiring the Ahriman to get so close.

*Primary!

Har har har.

but it's not like monsters can get two swords or def up or magic attack up so it's rather even.

Well, technically...

They may gain a water-based primary attack, but that'll be one of the last things to do once I square out exactly how many ability slots are left over -- currently there's 15 including all the post-parasite slots so it may come to fruition.

You would cry if you knew how many slots I dedicated to monsters, I think.

Maybe a Don't Move or Don't Act effect?  Leaning more towards DA.

First Cancels Protect/Shell.
Second Adds Protect/Shell.
Third should inflict a status or statii that boosts damage output or reduces the opponent's damage out.  I want to say to be an outright douche and go for Sleep + Faith, though I guess Don't Act or Stop (prefer Stop because it gives monsters more ways to manipulate CT) works too.

but I'll defer to Raven on that point.

Oh defer all the technical jargon to me, won't you?

I just realized there's not even a multi-quote button. Joy.

Have the Quick Reply box open and jam the quote button on every post you want to quote.  The forum has some strange, built-in faux multiquote.

Eh, only if you've the time.

I was looking at the Equipment list (and my Lucavi list; dear Lord did I buff the hell out of them and monsters) last night and I was embarrassed to notice all the typos it has and all the things that still need to be tested after six months of not working on it at all.

Heh, typos happen.  It's no worry, it just may not be right away still unless you end up super needing it since I have at least one other commitment that needs to come first.

...I'll take your word for it. Even when I was actually working on my patch, I was more focused on making equipment, abilities and classes viable before I even touched stats and since I never finished the former....

Do the stats before all that stuff, trust me, Mr. Working Backwards.  :p

...Anyway, I actually think that 1.3 Goblins were great outside of the whole "distant Goblin Punch" thing. Not sure if you could maybe draw from that even though they were essentially just monster Monks.


Their design could easily be improved on if he wanted to source 1.3 monsters.  Outside of some more recent 1.3035 changes that look like they took a few things I said to Arch to heart before he left, many of the monsters are great but far too unfocused, Goblins included.

I'd call you a bastard, but I think I gave Ghouls MP Switch as well.

We're horrible people, aren't we?

*keeps mouth shut*

Perhaps going with what Eternal said, maybe given them some Holy-based (physical) attack?

Actually going to slightly echo this and say make them a Non-Elemental / Holy Elemental based bunch.

Haha! I think I gave them Counter and Counter Magic as well.

If only Phil weren't already using Counter Tackle's slot for something...
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 30, 2010, 12:50:21 AM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2010, 12:50:21 AM »
(@philsov: I looked at all the monsters I think I generally like all the changes EXCEPT MP Switch on Panthers. ...Why?)

Yeah, I use the faux-Quick Reply thing above. Still weird to not have a formal button on most forums I go besides my main one.

Anyway, no, it's not a big deal. Like I said, I haven't worked on it in months, even if this has rekindled my interest. So take your time with it. Just try to get around it some time before next year ends, please. :p

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Likes to move it move it.
philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [December 30, 2010, 03:13:34 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2010, 03:13:34 PM »
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Do Red Chocobos have something different movement-wise then? Or did you just forget to mention them?

They still have ignore height -- it's just a default on them.

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I want to say to be an outright douche and go for Sleep + Faith, though I guess Don't Act or Stop (prefer Stop because it gives monsters more ways to manipulate CT) works too.

Stop works better.  Need more sources for that one.

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If only Phil weren't already using Counter Tackle's slot for something...

And its glorious.

As for Bull Demon/monster skills -- here's the current breakdown:

Ally/Self Buff - 5
1-range ST - 2
Range MT debuff - 2
Range MT damage - 5
Range ST damage - 1

Looks like I can use another ranged, single target ability?  Doesn't really fit into the bull demon scheme but I might be able to inject enough flavor that it'll work. 

Just another rebel plotting rebellion.
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [December 30, 2010, 11:33:56 PM]
Re: Monsters
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 11:33:56 PM »
It took me a bit to figure out what you meant by ST and MT.

Anyway, it seems like you could just make Goblin's monster skill a ranged, single target one since you haven't done that one yet. You could also do what Eternal (technically), Raven and I suggested and make give Bull Demon some Holy-based monster skill as a--hmm...the word evades me at the moment--reference to past Final Fantasies. Of course, this means that Bull Demon would likely have to lose Holy for something else, but that's not really a huge loss.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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