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Humanoid Classes/Abilities in ASMd  (Read 21688 times)
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 03:27:34 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2010, 03:27:34 AM »
Lol, reviving for 0 HP.

I believe Call of Power utilizes that for something during a story battle, actually.  It could be used to make "Zombie" units, even... heh...
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 04:52:56 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2010, 04:52:56 PM »
mmmk.

Oracles gain a death sentence ability, Time Mages gain an Expire type ability, Knights get Shatter, and Squires get Cleave.

That said, Wizards are gaining the Virus ability, which is elemental-2 damage with a chance to poison the target.  

Archers lost the Cripple ability, and gained the Oil Bomb ability, which is ~60+Sp of inflicting Oil onto a single target.  (Multi-target oil is op, imo, and its either damage + 25% with AoE or single target status infliction at >25%).
Archers also gain the fire strike ability, which is an SP*WP fire elemental shot.

I'll get to the rest later :p

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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 06:16:03 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2010, 06:16:03 PM »
Due to problems that I had yesterday (not with your patch, but with mine), I have to ask philsov: How did you solve the Calculator slow down issue?

I tried to switch the skill set with Knight's single targeting abilities and while Knight's Math Skill seems to be working, Blue Mage's Battle Skill is not. At this rate, I'm probably just going to have to give turn Calculator into Gambler and Monk into Blue Mage even though Gambler has more multiple hit attacks than Knight....

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 08:42:30 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2010, 08:42:30 PM »
He didn't.  Chocobo cure still is really slow.

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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 09:25:41 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2010, 09:25:41 PM »
Thankfully thats the only one affected by the lag, since everything else is either single target or single effect.

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 09:38:54 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2010, 09:38:54 PM »
Quote from: "philsov"
Thankfully thats the only one affected by the lag, since everything else is either single target or single effect.

It's also rather amusing how "Goblin PAWNCH" looks like "Goblin ASPLOSION" when a human uses it.

Which reminds me.

Add a Spell Quote for Goblin Punch that is simply "Goblin... PAWNCH!" :D
degrofm [Posts: 110]
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  • [April 17, 2010, 10:13:41 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2010, 10:13:41 PM »
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"

Add a Spell Quote for Goblin Punch that is simply "Goblin... PAWNCH!" :D

This.
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [May 16, 2010, 08:09:14 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2010, 08:09:14 AM »
*casts Revive on topic*

*begins typing in a Stream of Conscience style*

Should Knights have a mini-swordstrike? PA*WP, 3 range, basically the same as the rest of the Ruin skills?

In Newtype, the White Magic skill Might gives 3 PA on targets. Could we had something like that?

Time Magic also had a CT 00 move called Delay. With the absence of Return 2, could we have that?

Could Thieves have a Steal MP or Steal Voice ability? Steal MP could be X+SP% of 100% MP Damage.

While I'm on Thieves, what about a Steal Life that adds Poison or Sabotage that adds Oil (we need more Oil moves IMO)? What about a Steal Turn ability, adds CT 00?

What if Archers had a CT 00 move called Trick Shot, Distracting Shot or Flinch shot?

I think Impact is currently misnamed. I think it should be called Cursed Shot or Concussion Shot. Impact Shot should deal 100% knockback on hit.

What if Camoflauge did Transparent and Float? Having extra height always helps for longbows. Float could be a separate ability, but it wouldn't be worth the CT it used.

Just going to throw this out there, but I think Counter Repeating Fist is a better fit than Counter Secret Fist. It's like Counter Tackle, only infinitely superior and less weirder. You can call it Counter Pummel or Fury.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [May 16, 2010, 04:52:12 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2010, 04:52:12 PM »
I'm not philsov (and, honestly, I haven't seen him around in a while), but I would have to say that CT 00 abilities are WAY too easy to abuse. Persuade only gets away with because it actually gives Finger Guard some innate use.

I'm not really going to comment on anything else except to say that giving Camoflauge Float neither solves anything that's currently wrong with it nor does it make sense. Sure, Float would be beneficial to Longbows, but there's already Float abilities that don't see much love anyway.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [May 16, 2010, 06:15:01 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2010, 06:15:01 PM »
Philsov has been around, he just hasn't had anything to say about ASM'D I guess. He was on yesterday. /stalker

As for Float not making sense, think of it as, a symbolic representation of the Ranger's (pretty much what the Archer is based on) traditional comfortability with the terrain. The extra height represents a jump shot. /bullshit

Float is underused because it's uses are so specific, and aren't worth casting most of the time. I say it doesn't hurt anything giving Float to a class that might actually use it regularly.

Besides, Float might not be so underused much longer. With reduced movement, movement-reducing terrain like swampland are going to be a real bitch, and being able to just ignore it will prove to be very valuable.
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [May 17, 2010, 05:26:01 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2010, 05:26:01 PM »
Oh, I've been around :), just quietly working on more of this stuff.  And there haven't been many comments for me to respond to.  It's a two-way street, I suppose.

Quote
Should Knights have a mini-swordstrike?

I don't think so, as this would completely negate the attack command, even if there's a hefty MP cost attached to it.  Nor is it too fitting with their skillset, which is more for debuffing enemies than direct damage.

Quote
Could we had something like +3 PA?

I think that's too much of an imbalance, unless the success rate was so pitiful it was hardly worth casting in the first place.  Or if it had a temporary duration.  Casting this spell on a monk or squire (once) in chapter 1 will enable them to one-shot armored units.  O.o

Quote
CT 00

Is tricky to deal with, especially in boss-y 5 on 1 situations where two people can just spam CT00 abilities and completely lock the boss down while everyone else wails on him.  It is, however, staying in the talk skill.  As bosses will have innate finger guard, this means I can also up the success in persuade and watch it be worthwhile on everything else.

Quote
I think Impact is currently misnamed. I think it should be called Cursed Shot or Concussion Shot. Impact Shot should deal 100% knockback on hit.

Very true.  Dunno if I can swing a 100% knockback shot (as I don't want throw stone in all its spammableness to be 100%), but a rename is certainly in order.

Quote
Could Thieves have a Steal MP or Steal Voice ability? Steal MP could be X+SP% of 100% MP Damage.

Steal Voice (Silence), easily.  Works out kinda well since summoners lost their silencing move.  MP damage is already present with knight, oracle, and samu... don't think any more is necessary.

Quote
What if Camoflauge did Transparent and Float?

That'd be good.  Self float for more longbow range is pretty sweet.  I'm still on the fence (and wanting to do more testing) on base camoflague and its affect on the AI, but a "Leg Up" type ability can be inserted in some form or fashion for the Archer.

Quote
Just going to throw this out there, but I think Counter Repeating Fist is a better fit than Counter Secret Fist. It's like Counter Tackle, only infinitely superior and less weirder. You can call it Counter Pummel or Fury.  

Good idea, but I think its too redundant with Counter.  Counter Secret Fist I find to be more unique and equally useful.

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Dokurider [Posts: 2807]
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  • [May 17, 2010, 06:15:14 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2010, 06:15:14 PM »
Quote
Quote
Could we had something like +3 PA?


I think that's too much of an imbalance, unless the success rate was so pitiful it was hardly worth casting in the first place. Or if it had a temporary duration. Casting this spell on a monk or squire (once) in chapter 1 will enable them to one-shot armored units. O.o

Did I say +3 PA?!? *looks at post*

I did. I must have been on crack or something. I meant AoE +1 PA.

Maybe Counter Condemn just needs a better name so it's easier to swallow. How about Maul or Wound or Fatal Blow?
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [May 17, 2010, 09:33:32 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2010, 09:33:32 PM »
You could always change "Counter Condemn" to "Checkmate" ala the Fencer's skill from FFTA. It would be a much better name IMO.

Also, with regards to Steal Voice, I forget philsov. Silence in your patch still only affects spell-casters right?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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philsov [Posts: 4598]
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  • [May 17, 2010, 09:41:41 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2010, 09:41:41 PM »
yes.

though with the introduction of global C-Ev and innate weapon guard, Blind is a rather nasty ability that's basically caster-immune, so I'm not concerned with the disparity (despite that a blind attack is still possible, but that's a different angle).  What exactly does Addle do?

As for the semantics of Counter Condemn, it was more following the older naming scheme (as Condemn is the new name of Secret Fist, makes the skill completely intuitive), but I'm always open to suggestions.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 06:06:39 PM by philsov »
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [May 17, 2010, 10:37:32 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2010, 10:37:32 PM »
I think part of the semantics is that Condemn doesn't "sound" physical like how Secret Fist did. Also, I think it'd be fairly intuitive considering that both Condemn and Counter Condemn/potentially Checkmate come from the same class. At worst, you'd have to mention it in the description just to clarify, but you should be doing that anyway.

As for Addle, it's basically just using the Silence boolean to limit physical attacks. In FFTA (funny how much I've taken from that game despite not ultimately liking it), Addle limited ALL special abilities IIRC, even for monsters. I don't think you'd have to go as far, especially since monsters need to be more threatening, not less. That said, it would help make negative status one-sided, though I do see your point with Blind and it's a good one.

(This reminds me: Are you getting rid of Concentrate? I vaguely remember you saying no.)

Since I'm bugging you, I'm still curious where you are on/with equipment. I'm harping on this still because a)I'm curious to see how much of Raven's suggestions you used if any and b)having another person to compare with would be good since I'm almost completely done with my equipment. (Armor is such a pain in the ass to try to "balance".) The only thing I have left to do is weapons (though, like armor, I'll probably have completely due almost all of them) and re-do a bit of shields.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [May 18, 2010, 07:59:33 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2010, 07:59:33 PM »
Secret Fist -> Vitals Strike / Pressure Point
Counter Secret Fist -> Counter Vitals / Counter Pressure

Imo.  It keeps the vaguely campy / even sloppy? feel of the original FFT naming scheme while being physical sounding and fitting.

I don't like Addle at all unless the ways to apply it have dismally low success rates.  It's heavily disabling even with just being basic Silence.

As for equipment... heh.  It's kind of surprising how much of that document I basically bombed and redid after the last time I posted it, though I'm not sure how relevant much of it is to ASM'd anymore.  ;o

@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.
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formerdeathcorps [Posts: 1322]
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  • [May 18, 2010, 10:21:50 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2010, 10:21:50 PM »
Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
Secret Fist -> Vitals Strike / Pressure Point
Counter Secret Fist -> Counter Vitals / Counter Pressure

Imo.  It keeps the vaguely campy / even sloppy? feel of the original FFT naming scheme while being physical sounding and fitting.

I don't like Addle at all unless the ways to apply it have dismally low success rates.  It's heavily disabling even with just being basic Silence.

As for equipment... heh.  It's kind of surprising how much of that document I basically bombed and redid after the last time I posted it, though I'm not sure how relevant much of it is to ASM'd anymore.  ;o

@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.

Don' Act is about equal to addle.  Addle doesn't end, but don't act stops attacks, evasion, and reaction.  If paralyze and arm aim don't have such low hit chances, neither should addle.

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The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [May 18, 2010, 11:34:12 PM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2010, 11:34:12 PM »
Yeah, seriously, Addle is less threatening than Don't Act, especially since it can't prevent all special skills. I don't think it can prevent any of the "special skills" like Item, Jump, Throw and such outside of Geomancy anyway. Don't Act also disables evasion completely, so...yeah.

Quote from: "RavenOfRazgriz"
@The Damned:  Unless you did some of that crazy slashing/piercing/whatever stuff, I found armor/clothing/robes to be fairly easy to balance on my latest run of them, but I already had a lot of defined goals to work within in terms of max possible stats on X classes with Y setups, etc.

I had defined goals too. They're actually the problem since they're much more stringent: My chief goal was to make sure that only three things within a set group had overlap. So, by "balance" I mean more "tried to make everything have some use, perhaps even at end-game" rather than the current "almost everything gets outdated as you go on" model that vanilla, 1.3 and Easytype use; so I had to get rid of a LOT of overlap.

I also had to kill a lot of things that would have been otherwise overpowered in my hack (*cough*Thief Hat*cough*Black Costume*) and Clothes are generally less powerful when it comes to "defense"/HP since everyone can wear them now.

But enough about that. I'll probably have a thread in a week since I'm probably going to go on vacation for a while around that time.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
ALL THE THINGS Official Caretaker.
RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3026]
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  • [May 19, 2010, 12:23:37 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2010, 12:23:37 AM »
Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"
Don' Act is about equal to addle.  Addle doesn't end, but don't act stops attacks, evasion, and reaction.  If paralyze and arm aim don't have such low hit chances, neither should addle.

Addle not ending means a lot more than most other things in any situation where we want a battle going more than 3 turns.

It also means more because the things that make Don't Act "better" can easily be downplayed by CT manipulation, whereas with Silence -> Addle your only way to make it end period outside of negation is on-death.

Quote from: "The Damned"
Yeah, seriously, Addle is less threatening than Don't Act, especially since it can't prevent all special skills. I don't think it can prevent any of the "special skills" like Item, Jump, Throw and such outside of Geomancy anyway. Don't Act also disables evasion completely, so...yeah.

So Addle is weaker because it doesn't disable the one skillset we likely want to prevent the spamming of and a bunch of highly linear skillsets of mostly questionable worth.

Addle can be used to block Draw Out as well, btw.

Again, CT means more in the long run.  If the unit is going to die in 2 turns after having its abilities sealed, it'll likely die in 2 turns in either scenario unless it's packing high evasion and/or Auto Potion... and even then your chances of killing are usually respectable and if it doesn't die, it's still a mostly useless unit unless its packed to have a powerful Attack command.

Which means Addle is mostly only "worse" in really niche situations, especially with ASM'd seemingly wanting battles to last longer (meaning CT based Don't Act wearing off and allowing for a comeback has higher probability of occurring).  In most situations, Addle is better, and the ability to use Attack Command still is generally only relevant on units you'd probably want to do something like put to Sleep over either status anyway.

Quote from: "The Damned"
I had defined goals too. They're actually the problem since they're much more stringent: My chief goal was to make sure that only three things within a set group had overlap. So, by "balance" I mean more "tried to make everything have some use, perhaps even at end-game" rather than the current "almost everything gets outdated as you go on" model that vanilla, 1.3 and Easytype use; so I had to get rid of a LOT of overlap.

I also had to kill a lot of things that would have been otherwise overpowered in my hack (*cough*Thief Hat*cough*Black Costume*) and Clothes are generally less powerful when it comes to "defense"/HP since everyone can wear them now.

But enough about that. I'll probably have a thread in a week since I'm probably going to go on vacation for a while around that time.

I don't know your specifics, but that still sounds rather easy, honestly.

Force new HP and MP scales onto everything, rearrange them a bit so that everything balances how you want them to without touching their original effects, and then systematically find and change overlapping items once everything is scaled and ordered in a balanced way.

I found that solved everything really easily, since HP especially is very easy to go plug and chug with in 5 minutes.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [May 19, 2010, 12:32:13 AM]
Re: Classes/Abilities in ASMd
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2010, 12:32:13 AM »
I already finished with armor. It was just a great annoyance trying to make things different AND (seemingly) usable beyond HP and MP values, especially with the limited amount of Item Attributes. You'll see what I mean; I hope to finish weapons today and finally move on actually testing and doing more expansive things.

Regardless, you're speaking about Addle as if it NEEDS to block all special attacks. It doesn't need to. Personally, I'm still perfectly fine with Addle affecting magical classes (much) more than physical classes, so long as Addle/Silence DOES affect physical classes to some degree. (And yeah, I forgot about Draw Out because I ended up getting rid of it completely like a month ago. My bad.)

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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