Final Fantasy Hacktics

"Decoding" the altima spritesheet

(http://i46.tinypic.com/24g0qi8.jpg)

Red spaces: Main poses (18)
Yellow spaces: Complementary spaces(Overlap and extend)
Grey spaces (Extend)

Note: Some poses and/or extensions may repeat, like the two swords when attacking.

For example, spaces P1-P3 are the front idle frames, spaces P4-P6 are back idle frames, and so on. To understand this, you need the original altima spritesheet and Shishi, to see where goes what. Spriting limits shouldn't be a problem now.

Progress:

(http://i46.tinypic.com/xnbxc8.jpg)


Shemhazai:

V1
(http://i49.tinypic.com/20pyalh.jpg)

Great work analyzing the Ultima1 sheet. This will come in extremely handy... although do beware that those yellow box boundaries are perfect; the real boundaries may not be perfect rectangles, so it is possible for some cut offs (although, I am not sure about this sheet, I know for humans that is the case).

Shemhazai is looking really nice. Let's discuss this sprite in chat further.


Notes:

Here is V2

(http://i45.tinypic.com/bipc1g.jpg)

dude... where is all this talent coming from

are you guys sure I didn't die and go to FFTHeaven?

Tight!

Cape Outline possibly? And covering the horse body in the back,

(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2096/shemedit.png)


Small edit since I don't have the original sprite.  Played around with the colors a little bit also.  The outline gives the cape a more definitive shape but I am not sure if this is necessary. Currently using 2 extra colors, which might be more trouble than it is worth.

Gotta say, I really do love the head shape thing at the top with the mask.


By the way, frames starting from 50 to 100 are 100% repeats in Ultima1's sheet. So if you exclude the spinning sword frames, there are only a handful of frames to do for the entire sprite.

Wow, this looks great. So far I have no objections. But, is there some way to make her eyes more visible?

posting this as a suggestion

(http://i45.tinypic.com/bipc1g.jpg)



^ I circled the part that is not very recognizable from the concept to the sprite

on the sprite it looks like some skin folds or something... perhaps shade that a little bit so it looks like cloth?

Mateus Pisces; It won't be easy :
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4972/matex1.png) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/matex1.png/)
_______________________________(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/886/matex3.png) (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/matex3.png/)
In serpentine form, as suggested. No staff yet
To tired to write anything.. update later.

@Lijj:  Mateus looks fantastic. You may want to reduce her details a little bit to give yourself some extra room for shading (and make it easier to do animations). You've got the serpent bottom correctly as well, of which I thought it maybe impossible to pull off!  I would suggest you brighten up the coloring on her blacks. The helmet armor piece looks just about perfect.

And finally, I am strongly against putting a staff on her. She already has enough detail as it is.


@Voldemort: We could try it but there likely won't be enough colors for that. Yes, we can try changing the color of that section, but keep in mind, more detail isn't necessarily always a good thing. Just look at some of the FFT Lucavi's. The important to do here is to get the shapes, shading and coloring to matchup with the concepts. Too much detail will make the sprite looking too busy, like those FF12 RW sprites. It'll also make shading and animations that much more difficult to do.

Lijj, it has too many details, it resembles the japanese style of spriting, many details = bad quality. And I cannot tell what is really goin on with this sprite either, even when lookin at reference I still have no idea what is where. Overall looks a bit flat. I know you must be a bit enraged, but I really don't like it. IMO following Mateus concept from FFTA would be easier, he seemed less detailed there.

@Kage: I would say Lijj was definitely on the right track. FFTA Mateus would have too much armor (won't resemble the FFT style of Lucavi). This one could use a few tweaks and it's done. Mostly her back. Possibly remove *some* of those red lines in her armor and give her better shape / shading.

He is on right track, but I am sure you see what I mean. I personaly can't see jer face, where are the eyes? Original FFT Lucavi had eyes clearly visible, and were more, hmm, "organised". This one isn't all that bad, just need some good polishing. And I agree with R999, staff would only ruin the quality.

yeah I agree with the above two comments about details


simplifying the sprite to get the basic characteristics is FFT's style

no detail

Mateus!

Loving the concept so far. My only crit with the design is the tail. I think it should be shorter, and the less it bends, the better.
As for shading, it literally needs to be redone. I agree with Kage here, it needs at least some FFT'ism to it, especially the pallete. I could get an edit in somewhere these days. (Life a bit busy, been absent for some days)

As for Shemhazai, got good crits some days ago along with those here. Indeed, the altima pallete didn't work out well for the clothing on the chest, as I was defining the basic shapes first. Will update soon.

This is a very nice illustration of Mateus (FF12 form) that shows clearly what those "sticks" are composed of,

\\


So he actually have two arms, 4 sticks at the top, and more sticks near the center.

and now... Famfrit
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5297/famfrit.png)
Tweaks still need to be made:
Body thicker
Facial structure
Water holder
Decoraction on back

Any other suggestions?

Anyway, its a decent start.

EDIT: (http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5297/famfrit.png)

Btw, this sprite has 11 colours, therefore 5 colours are remaining, open for suggestions for these may be used on, but it is not necessary.

This isn't based on anything, but Twinees got me started on working on his eyes... since I felt he didn't look menacing enough,

Famfrit R1

(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8416/screenshot20100708at124.png)


By the way, superb job on this Famfrit Twinees. This is a nice start indeed.

wtf happened with the top of his head

what are all those spiky things


(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090714010720/finalfantasy/images/6/62/Ffxiirw_famfrit.png)

(http://www.finalfantasytr.com/images/summonlar/famfrit2.jpg)

famfrit doesn't have visible eyes... more like a helmet

he's all armor

Quote from: "Voldemort"perhaps shade that a little bit so it looks like cloth?

Perhaps.

(http://i27.tinypic.com/ej64oy.jpg)
V4

Worked on pallete, cape and crossbow arms.

Hey Twinees. Guess why I was busy to reply.

Quote from: "R999"This isn't based on anything, but Twinees got me started on working on his eyes... since I felt he didn't look menacing enough,

Famfrit R1

(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8416/screenshot20100708at124.png)

By the way, superb job on this Famfrit Twinees. This is a nice start indeed.

I'd recommend an entirely new aproach. FFTA all the way.

(http://i25.tinypic.com/2gw5kjk.jpg)

...Btw, didn't we agree I was to make Famfrit...?

Quote from: "Smash"

Quote from: "Voldemort"perhaps shade that a little bit so it looks like cloth?

Perhaps.

(http://i27.tinypic.com/ej64oy.jpg)
V4

Worked on pallete, cape and crossbow arms.

this looks very good.. I can definitely distinguish the character now

good job

detail is not overpowering either

Smash, you can do the famfrit, it was only something i did when i was bored, just thought id make a start on something.
Just thought id make things easier for you, because you seem like you've tons of things on your plate atm.

Smash:: Very nice play on Shemhazai colors. She seems shorter than before, as well, is that a sheet limitation? Also, the way the cape extends out is quite different than FF12's (but that's really fine the way it is, but incase you wanted to follow the other design).

Indeed you said you were going to tackle Famfrit, but it has been... 5 days since? You mentioned that you were going to be away for a while, I thought you meant you were going to be inactive -- thus when Twinees asked me if he could do Famfrit, I told him yes, but making sure that he is fully aware that you are also working on him.

I told Twinees about having the water holder attached on his back (like a sort of backpack) and chained up. Remember that these Lucavi need to have very natural standing poses, and in FFT's case they usually do not wield any kind of weapon until you see their attacking animations (such as that of ULtima1's sprite). However, please do go for whichever design that fits your boat. You've got his body, arms and legs shaped just right for him in that base sketch.


Voldemort: Yes indeed Famfrit looks quite different. I did that design out of creativity juice before I slept last night. We don't have to strictly follow their FFTA / FF12 designs, none of the FFT Lucavi's really did. Though I do want to see if people liked it or not.

16-Color BMP Edit please I'm having a lot of trouble simplifying it

QuoteSmash:: Very nice play on Shemhazai colors. She seems shorter than before, as well, is that a sheet limitation? Also, the way the cape extends out is quite different than FF12's (but that's really fine the way it is, but incase you wanted to follow the other design).

Sheet limitations. Yup.

QuoteIndeed you said you were going to tackle Famfrit, but it has been... 5 days since? You mentioned that you were going to be away for a while, I thought you meant you were going to be inactive -- thus when Twinees asked me if he could do Famfrit, I told him yes, but making sure that he is fully aware that you are also working on him.

Summer + Life = Low activity. Im helping out cause I'd like to see this proyect done.
Yeah, I don't mind. Collabs are great in that, the more help the better.

QuoteI told Twinees about having the water holder attached on his back (like a sort of backpack) and chained up. Remember that these Lucavi need to have very natural standing poses, and in FFT's case they usually do not wield any kind of weapon until you see their attacking animations (such as that of ULtima1's sprite). However, please do go for whichever design that fits your boat. You've got his body, arms and legs shaped just right for him in that base sketch.

Chained up seems nice.. Btw, I forgot to mention this before, (To everyone) for espers like these, it's better to post basic sketches first (like the famfrit one I posted), for critique to sharpen them up from the start. Posting completely done sprites (shading, palletes) has the risk of wasting effort once a big crit comes. In pixel art, this has happened to me many times already.

About the size restrictions:

(http://i29.tinypic.com/30mu3aa.jpg)

Yeah Lijj, this is what I meant with the tail. Some shrinking might be nessesary; I'll try to get some edits in soon, without losing the shape.

^ That is a very good point and you are absolutely right especially when it comes to Lucavi designs and the Ultima1 sheet. Although I am sure both Lijj and Twinees work in a different approach when it comes to prototyping. I highly recommend you guys to do like what Smash suggested (do the simple shapes outline first before going further, next time).

(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2545/matexample.png) (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/matexample.png/)
So to fit the tail in I had to change it everything else was close. I lost some of the big arm but that could be easily fixed.

Nice use of the small 8x8 extension there. I didn't even mention it thinkig it wouldn't be nessesary, but seems like a good touch for Mateus.

Im trying to simplify the shading and pallete as of now btw.

EDIT: A monumental task.. So I'll tackle it by parts, explaining along the way. Will be using other Lucavi as references.

I didn't look at the lucavi sprites carefully last night...  Shemhazai is looking perfect, from colors to shading. I think it would be a good idea to start drawing basic shapes or outlines for her casting frames just so you won't run into problems with those arms and cape. I think we should try to do these before actually finalizing the full design just incase some parts might not fit.

Very clever use of that 8x8 extension Lijj!

Good! once it's ready i'd like to go for the top five frames.

Everyone read this critique. Im still not finished with this post, cause I have to eat. Still, it covers the more important info on how to shade lucavi sprites.

(http://i26.tinypic.com/2ufsort.jpg)

[A] The original sprite. Tones everywhere of equal value, over-detailed, deficient pallete, not FFT style overall.
First off, everything's shaded with the same values, the arms, horns, plates.. You can't really distinguish one from another when piled up all together, and even less recognize any overlaping, at all. Too many details really make it look like an un-identifiable mess, and add to the general absense of depth. Only the arms are decent, yet the shading dumbs it down because it's over-contrasted, unlike the grey areas on the rest of the sprite. The pallete is not FFT like either.

[B ] First step to fix the body by parts. To simplify, I'll first clean up, define some basic shapes with different shades, and divide these parts in color groups.

[C] With the help of Belias's pallete, made some recognizable shapes to the piece. I also toned down the arms, and played with the anatomy a bit, to get it on proportion. At beginning stages, defining stuff should be the only goal, without going into details. Altima there for extra ref.

[D] Taking other pieces, and shading them with another color group, this time grey to tell them apart from the blue body.

[E] Joined the pieces up, and refined the shapes a bit using a ref. Also, defined some prominent shapes there too in the torso.

[F] Defining more. Notice how the pieces closer to the viewer, like the arms, were lit up shading wise. This to effectively tell them apart from the pieces they'll overlap soon. Altima and Zalera exhibit the best examples of this.

[G] Last piece cleaned up.

[H] Now everything joined in. Front pieces have more light, back pieces the opposite, and there's a rough but solid shading sketch there. These values should survive through the shading step in order for the sprite to look good quality wise.


Still need to shade and pallete this.

^ That was excellent Smash!  The large canvas of the Ultima Sheet does allow room for good detail and shading. Using a good palette is often overlooked (always try to prepare a good -- 4 or sometimes 3 tones per color usually, well distributed -- palette before you do much work). You are spot on on a lot of these points.

You also covered another very important aspect that's often overlooked; showing overlaps. This is often more difficult to achieve than said. Altima1 is indeed a very good example of this.

I am not sure if I'd recommend breaking apart the shapes though however... often the joining up process can be very time consuming (at least it is so for me).

Quote from: "R999"I am not sure if I'd recommend breaking apart the shapes though however... often the joining up process can be very time consuming (at least it is so for me).

This applies to my case only though. A pre-made sprite.
One does everything automatically when making it from scratch.


Im having a hard time here figuring out how to shade those armor plates on Mateus btw, which turned out harder than I thought.   i think I understand Lijj now.  

This could take some time.

Well, I did some more on it

[attachment=0:2uirvqxh]Upload.png[/attachment:2uirvqxh]


Lijj: Although incomplete, this should serve a good starting point. Head and main body is already done, but before you continue, make sure to limit yourself to the 12 color pallete there. Remember to only apply the most prominent of details, instead of every line on the ref.

Also, Belias is your friend. Try to make the shading look as much as him as possible.

Looks great, is it possible though to put either of her hands into one of the gauntlets, or would that be very difficult to pull off?

Her hands don't go into either gauntlet...

Not only is Mateus going to be an intimidating boss; she also intimidates us developers...

UPDATE:
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8338/famfrit2.png)

Bazooka/Ewer still needs to be done.
Fix up lower section of body.

Also, everyone

Lijj And I have traded espers. He'll take care of Shemhazai and I'll take Mateus

This because Mateus' design is undergoing changes. Will update

Quote from: "Voldemort"Her hands don't go into either gauntlet...

spoiler

http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-02/art/ff12-esper-mateus.jpg

Ah, Voldemort. We discussed this on IRC a bit of time ago, but we strayed from that design considerably and used something more akin to...


(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs14/i/2007/008/8/4/Comic_Concept_by_CYBERSLADE666.jpg)

While not a great piece of art, it has some interesting themes, and one part that you can tell is mistake but is a pretty interesting idea that employs the equality of control that Mateus and Matoya share. Notice that one hand appears to be inside the right gauntlet? (which is no doubt just a mistake from this person's original concept. The original idea  we had in mind was to have one hand bound to Mateus while the other hand control the right gauntlet.Though the question was, would that be too difficult to sprite.

@LastingDawn: It's not difficult but it is difficult in the sense that it is hard to make such a pose looking natural, while preserving the 4 armored arms of Mateus himself. I think Smash is going with a design that is even more simplified that has less armor and more inline with the rest of the game's Lucavi. (And even in this illustration, I see both her arms bounded no?)

Quote from: "R999"@LastingDawn: It's not difficult but it is difficult in the sense that it is hard to make such a pose looking natural, while preserving the 4 armored arms of Mateus himself. I think Smash is going with a design that is even more simplified that has less armor and more inline with the rest of the game's Lucavi. (And even in this illustration, I see both her arms bounded no?)

Yes, but you can tell from the picture that Originally the artist wanted one of her hands controlling a gauntlet (you can still see the arm clear as day), before they decided to go with the more traditional look.

actually, LD, you're wrong

(http://i27.tinypic.com/25a7ntw.png)


the woman's 2 hands are in the correct position in this art

see them up there?

then the two armored gauntlets are where they have always been - coming out of her back

there is no hand going into the gauntlets in this or any art of mateus

that 3rd circle (lower right) is not one of the woman's hands.. it's the same as the other side, just in a lowered position

Quote from: "LastingDawn"The original idea  we had in mind was to have one hand bound to Mateus while the other hand control the right gauntlet.Though the question was, would that be too difficult to sprite.

^ I see no point to this

it's not how the real esper is like and seems like an arbitrary contradiction with no good reason

also it will look akward, because you're STILL going to have the other armored gauntlet coming out of her back, while the other is used by the womans hands? positioning would be totally off (one shoulder on totally different placement than the other) and look terrible

Mateus has FOUR arms total

with your proposed change, she'd have 3, and look even more confusing than she does now

Nevermind all that. I got the design sketched up already. My old scanner has shit quality and this was lightly drawn too, but it should show the general shape.


Better version edit.

that looks good

Pencil render progress. (New scan)

That looks pretty nice Smash!


By the way, I think we should start a new thread for each Lucavi when we work on them again in the future (though probably not for a little while). This thread is starting to get crowded and things are getting lost. Use this thread to link to the others in the first post.

One for Mateus, one for Famfrit, one for Shemhazai, one for Chaos.