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Patch Proposals/Ideas Thread

Started by Dominic NY18, February 14, 2009, 01:59:21 pm

Pickle Girl Fanboy

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"I personally organized armor by weight class (Heavy, Medium, Light), corresponding to the ability to equip Armor, Clothing and Robes, respectively, with armor options determined not so much by 'type' of protection they favor, but rather maximum weight class of armor they can equip. (so knights can equip all armor types, while mages can only equip light armor). I also gave each armor type a speed and move/jump bonus, forming a scale of More HP <<---->>More Speed/move/jump
the Heavy Plate armor may have 5 times the hp of Light Padded amor, but the Light Padded has +4 speed, +2 move and +1 jump by comparison, here is a chart displaying the simplest version of my system (the more complex version ranges from 255 hp +0 speed all the way down to 17hp +6 speed). I like this organization for equipment, as makes for a greater selection of viable choices as you progress through the game, rather then a dwindling selection or or set limit (especially once you start adding in armor with special effects/elemental affinity and whatnot.)
HP ------ Heavy -- Medium -- Light
Plate --- 255 ----- 170 ------- 85
Chain -- 204 ----- 136 ------- 68
Padded- 153 ----- 102 ------- 51

Speed -- Heavy -- Medium --- Light
Plate --- +0 ------ +1 ------- +2
Chain -- +1 ------ +2 -------- +3
Padded  +2 ------ +3 --------- +4

Agility -- Heavy -- Medium -- Light
Move --- +0 ------ +1 -------- +2
Jump --- +0 ------ +0 -------- +1

Here also as a special bonus is my system for shields
Large Shields -- P-ev -- M-ev -- Special
Tower Shield -- 0% ----- 0% ----- Always: Protect
Aegis Shield --- 0% ----- 0% ----- Always: Shell
Mirror Shield -- 0% ----- 0% ----- Always: Reflect

Small Shields -- P-ev -- M-ev -- Special
Buckler --------- 32% --- 16% --- none
Rune Shield ---- 16% --- 32% --- none
Kite Shield ------ 24% --- 24% --- none

I think this is an interesting dynamic, you must choose between blocking a set amount of all damage from physical or magical sources, or a chance to completely dodge damage from those sources.

That's wierdly similiar to an idea I stole.  Great minds...


http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/637/
How about a patch that un-hardcodes everything? ... would that require a re-organization of the entire game?

samuchan

Is there any way to have a new AI setting?  One that basically tells the unit to use only move and wait?  This setting would be good for Singing and Dancing.

Edit: Oops wrong thread. Can someone put this in the skills ideas thread?

The Damned

Not so much a patch idea in and of itself as part of one, but since we were talking about equipment in here and it no longer has to do with the skills since my Templars are not completely different due to me having a genius idea yesterday, I figured that I'd post it here rather than in the Skills/Jobs thread.

I've been wondering if anyone has extensively tested weapon changes.

What I mean by this is trying to change one weapon slot to another.


Originally, this between a month or two ago when I was trying to test out Vanya's idea of Blue Mages that use items. Naturally, due to item use, this would require replacement of Katana so as to use Draw Out skills--this ultimately failed due to monsters inability to use Items of any kind, at least as part of a monster skill set. (I'm sure this could may be remedied by giving monsters a human-ish skillset like how Skip Sandwich was proposing earlier, but there are several problems that and it's not the topic of what we're talking about right now anyway.)

Getting to the point, I had originally tried to replace Katana with Cloths since I'm trying to make more of the weapons with less than three in number as it is and I had figured that Cloths could easily be renamed "Hides" and still make sense. However, the graphical results of these new weapons when I attacked (whether with normal attack or Draw Out) would make Picasso proud. They were really, really bizarre, though they at least still did (visible) damage unlike some other things.

This was similarly the case when I replaced changed a Katana into a Bow and, I don't believe, changed anything else. While changing animation should easily get rid of the Draw Out problems (and the fact that what I decided to replace Katana with aren't mean to be weapons in and of themselves anymore), I'm unsure of what to do with regards to attack.

The reason this is still a subject of concern is because I currently still have all the Ninja Blade spots, the Bag spots and some other spots open as well. So...yeah.

Has anyone had problems or experience with this? I figure part of it might have to do with the type of weapon that's replacing it, like if I replaced all of Ninja Blades with some similar striking weapon, like another type of sword (though that grows increasingly unlikely) that maybe it won't happen, but I've yet to extensively test anything yet.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

formerdeathcorps

There are conflicting results.  I've tried creating more lunging weapons from striking weapons (and met disaster).  Lydyn claimed he had problems too (with similar replacements of swords), but VampDragonLord had no problems converting swords into guns.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

The Damned

Haha, of course.

The one weapon I'm trying to get rid of the most is one that works perfectly. Awesome.

Sigh. I guess I'll just have to test things out. Oh well, this was mostly secondary to trying to make most, if not all, weapons useful for once rather than outdated pieces of crap.

Thank you.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Timbo

Will you share your data Damned?  I also want to eliminate some of the smaller groups of weapons to flesh out others.  Namely bags and cloths, but I also want to restructure the other weapons as well, and I want to be prepared for any speed bumps I might encounter.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

The Damned

I will of course share, but I have to start testing first and at this rate...I probably won't be testing anything until summer starts.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

The HiemLICH

Hey guys.

Long time lurker, new at this posting thing. So weird.

Anyway, I'm beginning work on a new patch I'm calling Teta Master (Like Tetris Master, except not related in any single possible way, except for in title! :D)

It goes like this... Teta survives Zeakden! On top of that, she blames Delita for what happened, e.g., the big scar on her shoulder and everything that came with it. There's more to depth, but, she joins Ramza post Chapter 1 and is with you throughout the entire game. I've always hated Delita and I figure since he gets to be with Ovelia then Ramza is going to keep Teta. Plus it'll help add a little dramatics to the whole Alma getting captured later in the game.

Now, when I say I've just started this I mean I literally just started this today. I have no screens, vids, and truth be told the only thing I've done so far is create Teta's job, which I'm calling Holy Adept. I'm posting this because I figured maybe it'll get a reply or two from interested parties. On a sidenote, I have absolutely no experience with editing events and having Teta in the party would of course change a lot of things. Longer conversations, and basically, add humanization to the plot. More feeling. I'm a guy, but I feel like FFT is just lacking a little bit in the true emotional spectrum. Having Teta there, I think, would let the player have a bigger emotional experience, and that is by far the only reason I'm doing this.

One small problem: Like I said, I have no experience. I'm not asking for help or anything, but this definitely isn't going to be out next week or even next month. Just preliminary stuff for now. Feedback always welcome!

SilvasRuin

I believe one of the changes Remix is making is having Teta live.  I'm sure plenty of others have had that idea as well.  It isn't all that innovative.  You say your only reason for the patch is to enhance the emotional involvement of the story.  I suggest you find a more creative way to do so.  If you're going to alter the story anyways, why not rewrite the whole thing?  The changes involved with Teta living would change everything anyways, so it wouldn't likely increase the amount of work it would take.  Heck, it might even make it take less work.  Making scenes from scratch might be slightly easier than keeping them roughly intact while inserting another character and more lines.

SilvasRuin

I've got several ideas swimming around in my head, so I'm curious as to what community preference tends to be.  What do you all think of the following stuff?:

Essentially an extension of the idea of having no soldier's office to recruit new characters, party consists of 1 character and 3 guests.  Half way like Mercenaries, the three guests would be made controllable and customizable and would join your character in every battle, including random battles.  All human characters would either be flagged immortal or there would be game over flags for any of them being crystallized, to prevent story complications and/or the game becoming unwinnable later.



Which of these monster concepts sound appealing/repulsive and/or compatible (taking fun into account) to the above idea?

A limited number of special monsters that are recruit-able at very specific parts of the patch, meant to be options for a supplemental fifth character to bring in battles.  Breeding is disabled.
Any normal monsters able to be recruited for the same purpose.  Breeding is enabled.
Only lowest tier monsters are recruit-able.  Breeding is disabled.
Chocobos getting six varieties and all being recruit-able at specific parts of the story.
Chocobos getting six varieties and being found and recruited like vanilla monsters.
Chocobos keeping three varieties and being exempt from the "lowest tier only" stipulation.



Which of these sound like they would make the most fun combination?  Pick one from each group.

1.  Starting stats
* Flatten starting stats so there's no difference between male and female.
* Keep normal starting stats.
* Individualize starting stats so that all characters have an automatic predisposition towards a particular job type.
2.  Stat growths
* Levels don't matter.  Characters may all start at level 99 to enforce this.
* Flatten stat growths so they are all identical.
* Keep stat growths different between Jobs.
* Make stat growths identical for Jobs of the same archetype, i.e. warrior, mage, rogue, etc.
* Make stat growths similar between Jobs of the same archetype but grow better with higher tiers.
3.  Stat multipliers
* Flatten stat modifiers so that raw stats determine ability, not currently chosen Job.
* Keep stat modifiers different between Jobs.
* Make stat modifiers identical for Jobs of the same archetype.
* Make stat modifiers similar between Jobs of the same archetype but grow better with higher tiers.
4.  Job availability
* Make all Jobs available to all characters.
* Limit each character to around 4 or 5 Jobs unique to them.
* Allow limited overlap in available Jobs between characters.  (May or may not be done through Dancer and Bard.)
5.  Impact of equipment on customization
* Have equipment function roughly the same as in vanilla.
* Make equipment contribute to current stats.  Individualize what equipment each Job can equip.  Remove equipment break abilities.
* Make equipment contribute to current stats.  Make all equipment equip-able by all jobs.  Remove equipment break abilities.
* Make equipment contribute to current stats.  Limit equipment according to archetypes.  Allow stipulations to be broken through Equip X abilities.  Remove equipment break abilities.
6.  Power creep reduction
* Don't use special gimmicks to slow power creep.
* Weapons all have a WA of 1 and instead boost the stats used for the attack.  (Change to Fist formula needed.  Slows weapon power creep.  Change to formulas involving speed and magic probably needed.)
* Defense Up ability innate to everything and boost the potency of the ability to 90%.  (Slows physical power creep.  Lessens amount of available innate ability slots, most noticeably a "problem" with monsters and Lucavi type creatures.)
* Protect or Wall made to reduce all/physical damage by 90%, made innate to everything, graphical effects removed.  (Less statuses to work with [Wall would be perfect for a cannoneer or for Astra], possible graphical bugs, extra window perpetually in the way of the status screen.)

The Damned

I'm sure you know that there are a lot of variables that actually involved in most of the decisions, but I'll answer anyway without going into an unnecessary long-winded post about that. I will admit that I don't like any of the options for groups 5 and 6, but I'll answer anyway. I'll probably be in the minority regardless:

  • Monsters: The only one of these that I'm actually against would be the very last one (without knowing more about where the patch intends to head [story-wise]. Of the remaining five, I think that I'd probably like the anytime choice of the six Chocobos.
  • Starting stats: Keep them the same. It's not that big of a difference anyway and any actual differences are completely overtaken/negated by equipment.
  • Stat growth: Keep stat growths different for each job. Besides the aforementioned equipment issue, using options two, five and possibly one would make it more likely that some classes/jobs/skill sets fall quickly by the wayside.
  • Stat multipliers: Keep stat modifiers different for each job. See above.
  • Job availability: One or two would be fine with me. Like I said, it largely depends on what you're doing with the story and mechanics. Given what little is presented, I would say two even though I would otherwise lean towards one. Of course, answering two totally obviates my answers for stat growth and stat multipliers in a way, so....
  • Equipment: Not exactly sure what you mean by "make equipment contribute to current stats" since you have it separate from "equipment function roughly the same as in vanilla". Additionally, I don't see the need to remove equipment break abilities. Regardless, I said I would pick one, so I will reluctantly pick option two since it's the least horrible of all the options.
  • Power creep: Again, I really don't like any of these options, but I at least understand what they mean this time around. I'll go with option three since it's the least likely to mess up the AI and is the most descriptive. Option one is too generic. Option two probably wouldn't work unless you severely reduced the amount of available weapons since there are only 80 Item Attributes and about 20-30 of those are used up by accessories. Option four just seems like a huge pain the ass and way too likely to screw up.

*shrugs*
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Power creep can be accounted for by careful monitoring of min/max stats for the highest PA, MA jobs, proper rescaling of equipment HP, and slight WP adjustment.  Alter the level cap if necessary.

There's no need to use any of the options presented for this area outside of laziness.  All of them honestly kind of suck, but since technically my above falls under the first I'll choose that one.

1/2/3 are usually preferential (I prefer growths flat and each job with unique multipliers and the standard male/female schism, but others disagree), 4 is again preferential though in your proposed patch I think the third one would be best if you can rig a Job Wheel to flow that way for you, and 5 is worded far too obscurely and relies heavily on both 4 and 6.

SilvasRuin

Ah, I suppose I really need to explain 5.  In Wild ARMs XF, also a tactical RPG, equipment generally contributes to a third of the characters' total stats.  This combined with various unique attributes equipment usually carried made Equip X abilities much more appealing and allowed greater customization of characters.  In this case, it would be like equipping a robe on a Knight and due to choosing that over its normal armor, the Robe would give a small amount of PA and a "large" amount of MA and so the Knight would wind up a bit more even stats, the effect being that it would at least have some power to... let's say you give it White Magic.    With careful arrangement, it's possible to allow the Jobs to have their optimal setups for whatever purpose they are designed for but still allow a player to have a fairly decent amount of say in whether a character is a melee fighter, speedy fighter, caster, or a mix regardless of what job it is.  In other words, the equipment choices would allow for either enhancing a job's strength or bolstering its weakness.

Of course that combined with stat growths would naturally lead to greater difficulty in keeping under control how high damage gets unless stat growths become very, very small to compensate.  The "gimmicks" would allow for having such a style of game without having to result in limiting leveling or growths to a lower extreme.



5 relying heavily on 4 and six is a byproduct of what attempts I made to split the variables up as much as possible without making the "survey" even larger.  The first option of both 5 and 6 are meant as the equivalent of "none of the above," and are basically for saying you don't like the other options.


As for story, I currently have bouncing around in my head is something loosely based on FFIII.  Very loosely...  I'm interested in a story focusing on four Warriors of Darkness having to stymie the light for a change, since Square has hinted at such adventures before but never seemed to actually feature such a plot.

Zaen

Ok.
Not a big fan of section 1.

Section 2:
Six varieties, vanilla style recruitment, all others disabled from recruiting.

Section 3:
#1: Third
#2: Third
This next one is what I like using
#3: First
#4: How would you do Second? I like it.
#5: Don't completely like any of them. Maybe just making equipment more important.
#6: I'd be lying if I said I knew what power creeping was.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

formerdeathcorps

What's with this obsession with stats?  Seriously, the original FFT stats weren't that bad once a few select unbalancing abilities, broken equipment (mostly on the physical end), and mime are removed.  If you still feel like you don't have enough, you always have Zodiac's ASM hack on this regard for stabilizing CT against speed throughout the game.  If you want a game completely unlike the original (i.e. fewer physicals, fewer offensive units, fewer hybrids, less movement ability, more specialist/hierarchical jobs, use speed to implement armor weight system), then it might make sense to tweak the stats, but that would require a ground-up redesign of (almost) every class.

Thus, in my opinion, if you are going to keep most of the existing FFT classes:
1. No flat growths or anything resembling it.  Delete all the level up/down tricks.
2. Please don't kill the hybrid class(es) for the sake of simplification into 2-4 archetypal groups.
3. Instead of grouping by tier, make all monsters except the best (dragon, uribo, vampire, murbol, tiamat) invitable.  No monster skill should be nerfed from vanilla unless it violates Rule 1.  Focus should be made on equalizing monster attacks between the same race (so triple thunder should equal triple flame in damage, for example), in making monster skills applicable for human use (monster MA should match human MA so monsters can use counter flood, human magic, and counter magic without being completely broken--especially if you're going to make blue mage), and in making monsters of a given race capable of surviving at least somewhat well on their own (so please, let's not have any monster that is solely support--like the transportation chocobo with 8 move and close to no PA/MA).  New monsters with skills too broken should obviously be made uninvitable, but if you don't make all of a given monster family uninvitable, you'll have to remove breeding.  In my opinion, monsters are so weak that in most cases, you can afford to give them broken abilities removed from humans (hamedo, blade grasp, stat break, golem, dragon spirit) with considerably less restraint.
4. I really don't know what you have against equipment breaks, but I really see no need to eliminate it.  It's a necessary hazard for going into battle and if you don't like it, wear maintenance, play with the RNG, or restart.  I personally don't mind having something broken, as long as its replaceable, or if I'm about to beat the game.
5. Power creep...this problem really arises out of a very limited set of physical skills: namely, the top-end weapons, two swords, martial arts, and two hands.  The solution is easy.  Cap WP lower/make powerful weapons two hands.  Remove 2 swords and martial arts, or at least them as innates.  Rework/Set MP Cost/Nerf/Delete previously instant damage skills.  Make PA and SP boosting gear be suboptimal for all other important stats.  At the same time, you can increase the damage and speed of damage magic and increase the HP gains of robes and other mage/non-physical gear.
6. Status balance should also be addressed.  Status magic > damage magic except against bosses, especially late-game.  Not only is it faster to charge on average, it also lasts far longer (and hence is much more MP efficient), especially against bosses with ??? stats but no immortal status (as we see from 1.3).  Zodiac's ASM hack is the ideal solution, I think, only because early-game, these status effects barely last long enough (so CT duration reduction really isn't a good solution).

In short:
Monsters: Option 2 with variation named above
Start Stats: Option 2 with minimal variation from vanilla
Growth: Option 3 with minimal variation from vanilla unless you are modifying movement, MP costs, or speed bonuses.  This may be inevitable due to what we have to do for equips/anti-power creep.
Multipliers (mathematically, they're just two parts of the same formula, no need to separate these two sections): Option 2 with minimal variation from vanilla unless you are modifying movement, MP costs, or speed bonuses.  This may be inevitable due to what we have to do for equips/anti-power creep.
Jobs: I believe in hybrids.  Thus, I favor Option 3.  Every unit should have access to at least 2 kinds mage classes (damage and healing), 2 kinds status casters (positive and negative), 3 kinds of physical damage units (tanky, fast, and ranged), and 1 hybrid/special, which may take the place of one of the above (like WM--which is healing and positive status).  In other words, each unit should have access to around 6-8 types of jobs.
Equips: Option 1 with either modification to prevent power creep or to account for item weight or for armor type in types of weapon attacks (Lydyn's patch idea).  Do not nerf equipment break!
Power Creep: Option 1 with what I mentioned above under equips.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

SilvasRuin

QuoteFocus should be made on equalizing monster attacks between the same race
I knew I was forgetting something in those options...

QuoteI really don't know what you have against equipment breaks
Normally I don't.  These and steals introduce a lot of balance issues if a decent amount of stats winds up coming from equipment.  They're mutually exclusive, I'm afraid.

QuoteCap WP lower
Fists.

I'm fairly agreeable to the rest of your reply to 5 and 6, a lot of in sounds in line with my thinking to begin with.


I suppose I should mention that I was considering setting all MP multipliers to 0 (for humans) and then giving a certain equipment type, like head pieces, +100 MP.  The effect of which is that attacks gradually grow more powerful and MP efficient but not more spammable.  This is because I personally would prefer a player to have to think about how to use their MP rather than just spew spells out every turn and chuck an ether at them every so often.  There are probably other ways to do this, but this is the simplest and easiest to control method...  And again, would be mutually exclusive with the appropriate break/steal skills.  If I remember correctly, growths aren't negatable but multipliers are.  Of course, as with the rest of it, I'm still just pondering possibilities.  Nothing is anywhere near set in stone at the moment.

As for jobs, I have to admit to preferring FFXIII's atypical selection of jobs more than the traditional FFT ones.  If at all possible, I'd like to have each combination of jobs and skill sets be worth considering, and those FFXIII professions do a halfway decent job at making most of them useable by most of the characters.  That is to say it would be nice if something like the Black Magic skill set wasn't totally useless on a Knight.  The accessory and weapon options do a pretty damn good job of letting you mold the characters' stats the way you want them to be, though not so far that you can turn a naturally talented mage into a fully physical warrior.  I highly doubt I'd take a large amount of what FFXIII has, but it provides a starting inspiration at least.  Another source of inspiration is again Wild ARMs XF.  The jobs in that game had 4 action abilities each, usually, so it often took some creative combinations to get the most out of the characters.  This gives me a goal to shoot for in design:  Adaptive and concise.

Zaen

You can change the formula for fists. Just change the <Nothing> slot.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

formerdeathcorps

Quote from: "Zaen"You can change the formula for fists. Just change the <Nothing> slot.

So if you assign fists some innate weapon power, you can deal linear fist damage?  Will this affect monsters too?
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Skip Sandwich

here is my reply
1) normal starting growths are fine, leave them alone.

2/3) I like the idea of having growths defined by archetype, with multipliers giving different stat profiles to jobs within an archetype, though not nescicarily having a higher tier job be a straight 'upgrade'

4) If you want to mess with job availability, why not simply go all the way and require all jobs other then squire to be earned through shared jp? forcing you to recruit a character of that class and have them fight in battle to teach your other units the secrets of that job before they can use it. The gariland starters could all start off with some arbitrary job unlocks, two warrior types, two mage types, and two rogue types. (this would either be in male/female versions of the same three jobs, or the male mage and female warrior would be hybrid types to take advantage of male/female stat growth differences)

5) I don't see the need to remove equipment breaks unless equipment is the primary provider for that stat, like say if you used my armor weight system, or something very similar to it, then removing armor break abilities would be a good idea, because move/jump and speed wouldn't make much sense otherwise (wait, being naked is slower and more encumbering then wearing a leather jacket?)

6) as for combating power creep, here's an idea, frozen WP. By this I mean that All swords have 8 base wp and say 12 w-ev, with some swords trading wp or w-ev for different boosts (should probably not have weapons be a significant contributor to stats, because of problems with Two Swords, but if a weapon grants +2 pa or +1 speed it's probablly fine), I've been working on this a lot, so i'll make another post where I'll go into more detail, with specific weapon and such like

as for assigning fists WP, it wouldn't affect monsters other then special monster-job units like ultima demons and worker 8, because monsters cannot use the [attack] command unless beserked.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

Zaen

Yep, monsters have their own basic attacks. Choco Attack, Tackle, Tentacle, Dash, etc.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar