FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Malroth]

Raven, Whats your opinion on Speed +1 as a time mage support ability instead of a movement abiliity? assuming a cost of around 450

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Defend on Mediators for 0 JP might work, they are a good class for it.  Others include Chemist, Priest, and Time Mage.  You dismiss mages too early because one of the biggest ways to mess with a magic-reliant team is to mess up their Speed Synch, causing their revival to happen after the attacker's turn passes.  You can see that happen a lot with Haste-based teams, which is probably the other reason you probably don't see magic Hasters a lot - Haste is strong in the right hands but ruins your Speed Synch, so from a mage's perspective adding Slow onto an enemy is probably better if their Secondary is supportive.

reinoe, TrueLight, both of those things can't be added to Accessories without some serious ASM hacking.  And in the case of HP/MP accessories, there's just no need as you already have two equipment slots for HP/MP and two equipment slots for evasion and/or option effects.  (Head/Body and Shield/Accessory, respectively.)  It's a piece of stylistic division that Shields and Accessories bestow evasion instead of HP to increase survival, and having it possible for either to do both just lessens the quality of evasion assuming you give them enough HP or MP to actually make someone care.

The Damned, Bracer/Magic Gauntlet don't need evasion.  Just because you take something away (+Power w/ evasion) doesn't mean you need to give it back somewhere else.  Something can die and just stay dead, which is really what these gloves need to do.  Bracer and Magic Gauntlet are already premiere items.  As for the new items giving +1 PA, I'm not against it but I definitely won't say it's necessary.  Making MA easier to boost isn't a problem because the R/S/M that boost Magic v those that boost Physical is a lot more limiting.

Malroth, I don't see any point in making it a Support ability.  A large number of top-tier Supports exist and you're just adding more noise into an area that already has a lot of competition as to which one you choose - even the "bad" ones are situationally worth using.  Movements even with War Path and Holy March added don't compare in volume for semi-utility Movements, so a Speed +1 should definitely go there.  Movements are far more in need of viable, flavorful options and Speed +1 is right at home.  I'm also going to go on the record on saying you guys are overestimating the power of a Speed +1 Movement because the AI tends to get really retarded when units move too quickly and one of its best uses outside of a kamikaze (where the JP will be mostly irrelevant anyway) will be to help your team's Speed Synch.  In that regard I'd say it should cost no more than 400 JP, similar to Move +1.

[The Damned]

(Ugh. Another wasted day.)

With regards to a Speed +1:: Yeah, I actually don't have a problem with Speed +1 being a Movement as long as it isn't cheaper than Move +1. It's a more a problem of determining who gets it, really. I guess Ninja could since they still don't have Movement and it would help them better parallel Thief, which is automatically faster than Ninja. Then again, Ninja already has a bunch of perks....

With regards to Defend as a Support: I suppose I didn't take the speed sync thing into mind, though I'm still kinda wary about Time Mage getting Defend. With everything that we're already agreeing to give it--including possibility this Speed +1--and despite your point about Haste, especially with Dispel Magic finally seeing some use, I would like Time Mage to be able to use the Haste spells at least. And from my memory, even as obnoxious as the AI priority on Haste can be, IIRC Defend trumps even that. So, while indeed a Time Mage with Defend could just not use Haste or a Time Mage with Haste could just not use Defend, I'd rather Defend be a class could use it without having to "decide". So I'd still say Time Mage is out personally.

Of the other three, I feel that Chemist and Priest are already strong enough, Mediator seems best for me. Not that Defend has to go there though.


With regards to Gauntlets: I suppose. It was more an ideal thought than "this needs to be replaced".

With regards to R/S/Ms boosting Physical more than Magic: I'm not really seeing this if we're talking just numbers, even though I acknowledge Martial Arts' existence and that Counter tends to backfire a hell of a lot less than Counter Magic does. As such, I'm guessing you just mean that physical units tend to be able to use their RSMs to boost their attacks, where as magickal ones--that aren't just whoring Spellguns--generally have to decide between boosting attack or restoring MP (or one of other utility RSMs like Float). If so, then I could see that.

At this point however, as with Defend, I think I'd rather like for the Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil accessory to have PA +1. The other accessory doesn't have to have PA +1, but I'm just not even sure what to begin think about what it "should" be; the same goes for what "we" are supposed to be replacing Crystal Shield with.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Speed +1, Ninjas, yeah sure whatever.

The best option for a 0 JP Defend is honestly Chemist.  There is no Support they'd glaringly like to have unlike with mages, Item makes a good secondary on mages if you buy into Chemist and Defend will come as a free option, etc.  Mediators often also run Item as a secondary anyway or vice-verse, so giving Chemist a 0 JP Defend helps everyone while being as unrestrictive as possible.  "Piggybacking" Defend onto a utility class like Chemist also makes it more usable because when you unlock a skillset for Defend, you'll stay for the skillset.  Putting Defend on a class like Mediator not everyone will use gives Mediator a nice option, but they'll likely get it anyway from opening Chemist as I mentioned and everyone else will have a harder time using it.  Putting "weak" things on strong classes is a good way to get people to experiment with them more readily and Chemist has no real good Supports anyway, so it works well.  (Throw Item, while "good", is also very niche.  Defend is too sortof, but the niche is completely different and a bit more generally applicable.  Chemist also doesn't get Haste so there's no worry about status priority.)

RSMs, magic (the primary use of MA) is only boosted by MATKUP and sometimes Elem Boost.  Physical can be boosted by ATKUP, MARTS, Two Hands, Two Swords, and sometimes Elem Boost.  Two Hands and Two Swords can sometimes boost MA*WP weapons but those weapons usually have slightly lower WP than PA contemporaries, much less common, and unlike when boosting PA via them, using them to boost MA weapons can sometimes end up conflicting since it does nothing for your skillset, which is often not geared for use by an in-your-face melee'er.  Either way, giving that Accessory PA +1 would be fine since the majority of users would be PA based anyway, but there's definitely inequality among PA/MA that will always exist even if Arena removed a lot of it, and that bit of inequality is what creates more in-depth strategy.

[The Damned]

(Ugh. I idiotically, of course, forgot about Two Hands and Two Swords on the PA side for some reason, perhaps because the majority of their use at present is just through innates.)

I guess that Chemist can get Defend since, yeah, Chemist doesn't have an "active" support to use as a Primary. I say this despite thinking that a lot of people still underrate Maintenance even if it can "backfire" with regards to the AI's targeting.

That said, I'd still rather Mediator get some if possible. So perhaps give them Speed +1 instead of Ninja? I keep forgetting that they have 9 Speed in ARENA since I'm used to them being the "fastest" only in my patch really, but since they do and Ninja already has Hidden Knife to abuse for Speed still....

As for the accessories, yeah, it's not like I'm trying to create a world where "everything is equal" since as I admitted early, that can never exist in any capacity ever without making everything the same and banal. That said, I'm just trying to think I feel like should be at least a minor replacement of Power Wrist. So if "we" are fine with Crystal-Shield-as-accessory getting PA +1 as well in addition to Neutrality and Block: Oil, then that's done.

Of course, that still leaves the question of what to do with Crystal Shield's current spot and the other accessory spot if Genji Gauntlet is dying as well. I'm currently stumped on both those fronts, partly because I'm still not sure about some of the statuses going into 139. (Are "we" changing Oil to block Reactions? Are Reraise and Death Sentence going to cancel each other like I think we discussed earlier? Etcerta.)

[CT5Holy]

Quick note for Master Guide (dunno if Damned covered it or not): Male Geomancers have 10 PA/8 MA, female Geomancers have 8 PA/10 MA.

[The Damned]

(Nope. I just covered the Move and Jump discrepancies because those were the most easily noticed.)

Anyway, while I literally just thought of something while typing up my "advice" to feeldawrath after noticing that AI still might not be using Nameless Song:


If "we" are probably keeping the Defend support around for at least another iteration on Raven's advice, then can "we" also try having Nameless Song add Defending?


Hear me out. "We" didn't want Nameless Song adding Hasting because it both ate up the AI's priority and would obviate pretty much all other forms of Haste (at least before Masamune existed) on top of being usable from anywhere on the map. While Defending has the same "problem" of making AI focus on it as a priority, hence the potential addition, it doesn't exactly out compete anything...save maybe the already unused Defend. Even that, however, would still have use as keeping the speed sync as Raven argues.

It seems it would definitely get the AI to use it for once and, unlike Haste, Defending only lasts until the AI moves. It would also allow for a use of Defending that would can actually be used to make a unit not have to use its Act to have Defend (exempting Mimes mimicking Nurse of course). That might be somewhat busted between Nameless Song having Reraise and Defending still stacking with Blind when it comes to evasion. However, Reraise can always leave and either get replaced by Float or nothing and Defending's evasion boost can (and should) probably be nerfed like Abandon's was. Similarly, Blind arguably still needs a bit of a buff since it doesn't disable Concentrate as was "promised" when we spoke of bringing it back for 138. [/not bitter] [/suspiciously specific denial]

[The Damned]

(So apparently Nameless Song will get used, but only if the Bard would otherwise be using Life Song, which apparently Nameless Song takes priority over due to Reraise.

...Good to know.)

Anyway, I hate to double post, but among other things, Dokurider's kicking my ass allowed me to realize something...weird seems to be going on with Ninjutsu. (Also, Repel Knife, but I'm not going to get in to that now.)

In the Master Guide, it says that Fuuton and its ilk are subject to M-EV only, yet when my Ninja went to heal my Archers, he got "guarded"...despite the fact neither of them have M-EV of any kind. I only realized this after the fact, probably because even if those had hit, it's unlikely that I would have won that fight.

Is this perhaps an intentional consequence of the "fix" to Projectile Guard (if was the Archer with Projectile Guard)? Or something else?

[Gaignun]

-ton skills have been getting blocked by P-EV since the beginning of 1.38.  I mentioned it a long time ago, but my post was either overlooked or the fix is not straightforward.

[The Damned]

(Yeah...I don't remember seeing that post, but then I think my memory is horrible, so....)

Hmmm, well the Master Guide also needs to change on that account then. I'll see if I can "go through it" on Thanksgiving since I'm not going to be doing anything on that day and make a list of everything that's wrong with it.

Other than that, I'm actually fine with that change considering how the -ton Ninjutsu initially were, even if that actually screws up my plans a bit. Hmmm....

[Malroth]

Immune Poison to  Light robe and P bag

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Why?  Poison is the only counter to those items outside of raw DPS.

[Malroth]

Well I mostly suggested this because Poison persists after death, so anyone running always regen could use pheonix down/wish as a rez without instantly dying as soon as they get a turn

[Barren]

There is a video I uploaded somewhere that kind of backs up Malroth's argument. I remember when TrueLight's Time Mage kept dying over and over due to poison which gave feeldawrath's team a 2nd round victory especially since his team compared to TrueLight's at the time had a lot more synergy problems between the two

[RavenOfRazgriz]

So someone won a game because they used Poison against a team with nothing but low-tier revival and was able to keep up pressure.

Poison's doing exactly what it was buffed to do so I'm not sure what the issue is really.

[The Damned]

(So...anyone have any ideas about Crystal Shield's replacement or what the second new Accessory should be? Because I still have nothing.)

I concur with Raven even though I'm still somewhat wary of Poison continuing past death. Much of that is it screwing over the already horrible Wish however, so if that's definitely getting fixed next version then I'm more than fine with Poison staying it as that. This especially when Poison is already getting screwed over completely by Masamune being everywhere. There's no way in hell that Poison needs to get nerfed if Masamune stays as it is, though Masamune probably needs to be weakened as it is, so....

[Dokurider]

Well, if turning Crystal Shield into a accessory is confirmed, then what if we had a Kaiser Plate-esqe shield that boosted Wind, Water, and Earth?

As for an accessory, what if we had one that blocked both Charm and Blind? As a maker of hyped up Melee units, I find myself having to choose between blind and charm protection. I'd be nice if I could block both.

[Barren]

Maybe keep the poison after death but perhaps lower the number of ticks just by a little bit. of course do the same to regen. otherwise its really up to you

[Barren]

Well, if turning Crystal Shield into a accessory is confirmed, then what if we had a Kaiser Plate-esqe shield that boosted Wind, Water, and Earth?

As for an accessory, what if we had one that blocked both Charm and Blind? As a maker of hyped up Melee units, I find myself having to choose between blind and charm protection. I'd be nice if I could block both.

you could always run with either diamond armor and n-kai armlet or crystal mail and angel ring but I know what you're saying. you would rather have 1 accessory that blocks both of those statuses

[reinoe]

I'm actually fine with Poison lasting past death.  In fact I built a team using only low level raise and built in Immunity to such things.  Poison is so easily negated that it had to get some sort of buff.  In fact negating poison is more pervasive than negating Regen.  It needs to last beyond death otherwise it's unplayable.


I wish frog lasted beyond death, but that's unlikely to get switched back.