FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(Flare could probably stand to have 5 or 10 MP shaved off.)

I just don't think that it needs to do anymore damage considering it's not subject to M-EV at all, whereas Holy is now. Holy could maybe see a slight damage decrease or Flare could maybe see slight CT reduction to 6, though of the two I would prefer the former rather than latter.

Beyond any of those things, I don't think any more drastic needs to be done to Flare with regards to how it compares to Holy (or doesn't).

[Dokurider]

Also, being elemental, Holy can be blocked. It has value in it's reliability. Might be a little too MP intensive.

The real issue is actually Golden Hairpin. Not only does is it one of the highest MP boosting items of Arena period, it comes with Holy/Dark strengthening AND +1 MA. All that and it's somehow isn't dead last in giving HP. The MA boost is just too much.

[The Damned]

(*is guilty of abusing Golden Hairpin*)

Yeah, that most likely does need to lose +1 MA, though I can sort of understand why it was/is there.

At the same time, I'd argue that Black Hood needs to gain some MP. That or, less ideally, Thief Hat. I say this because besides Golden Hairpin, the only two Hats that give any MP aren't really meant for mages. In fact, they're both rather anti-mage since mages don't really want more movement since they tend to charge forward suicidally and they obviously don't want Initial: Innocent. Considering that Hats still double as the Head equivalent for both Clothes and Robes, Black Hood (or Thief Hat) getting a bit of MP seems like it would be "fair" despite Black Hood having the highest HP. I mean, it makes sense for the highest HP Helm(et) to give no MP since Armor doesn't give MP at all, but since Robes don't have a Head equivalent still...yeah.

Just another thought.

*goes back to watching The Haunting*

[Barren]

They are flagged reflectable in Patcher. Maybe Reflect was dispelled before?

It could be just me but I did a test and even though my chemist was wearing a reflect mail due to equip armor bio 2 still hit him (unless there was a reflected bio 2 off of my oracle....I wasn't quite paying attention) but I will do more research on that

[Barren]

I just did another test with one of Doku's team. His scholar can still target my oracle for damage with bio 2 whereas I think if I remember correctly it's suppose to be 0% due to reflect right?

[CT5Holy]

I'd rather see Golden Hairpin lose the Strengthen: Holy/Dark. Dia, Cyclops, and Holy are all quite strong and they get boosted by it. Kotetsu is another strong skill that benefits from Golden Hairpin, but there's a lot more Dark absorb than Holy absorb. Still hurts though. Remember, Strengthen: ___ on a mage effectively gives them at least 3 more MA for the corresponding element.

I think Black Hood giving MP would be fine. While we're talking about MP though, how about some more clothes giving MP? Right now it's only Earth Clothes at a measly 10 MP.

Flare MP down to 40 and CT down to 6 seems reasonable.

Thoughts on increasing the HP on Grand Helmet and Maximillian? No one uses either.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Hats just have a lot of bad balance to them.  60/0 for +2 MA is fine, but 70/50 for +1 is almost always better, and the STR: Elems on top are just ridiculous.  I think keeping the STR: Elems is fine because it's narrow and a head-based variant on Black Robe, but it does a lot of other shit that is clearly ridiculous compared to equivalent items.  Maybe switch it up with:

[HELMETS]
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.

[HATS]
HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2.
HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2.
HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect.
HP 060 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent.
HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.

[HEADBAND]
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.
HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence.
HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.

[ARMOR]
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.

[CLOTHES]
HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2.
HP 120 MP 030 Brigadine - No Added Effects.
HP 100 MP 020 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind.
HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2.
HP 090 MP 010 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth.
HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 100 MP 020 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark.
HP 100 MP 020 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.

[ROBES]
HP 110 MP 040 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.

I left out anything that didn't get changed for the most part.  Silk Robe is adjusted because it's not that great and to make it match the updated Brigadine better.  Cross Helmet is adjusted to better match Black Hood because it'd be dumb for Black Hood to be 110/XX relevant MP but Cross Helm to only be 90/40 when an armored unit is already going to be downgrading its HP quite a bit for Robes if they want an MP build.  Everything else is addressing things like Golden Hairpin or Clothing never giving MP, etc. and adjustments based on those adjustments.  Also mugged and adjusted The Damned's Headband recommendation to be a bit better balanced.


Also gonna say that Flare should keep its CT but definitely drop the MP cost.  The CT is the main counterbalance to it being mostly unblockable.

[The Damned]

(Mugged? Damn. I knew I should have equipped Maintenance.)

I can get behind Raven's changes for the most part, including our agreement over Flare, saves for two matters:

1. Silk Robe's MP should probably go up to 50 just because the two +X MA robes also have 50 and Linen Robe isn't that far off in terms of HP from it even before the HP drop.

2. I'm not sure if I'm entirely comfortable with Chakra Band/Ribbon (or even Choice Band/Barrette) blocking that many statuses still, especially since last time there were at least some negative statuses they missed like Sleep and Oil. Then again, considering Chakra Band now has as little HP as I was originally going to give it....

Ultimately I'd like support the above two as Raven suggested them anyway. Just making notes like always.

Speaking of which, after my suggestion list, it seems that we've already talked about Last Song, Time Mage & Time Magic(k), Flare vs. Holy and now Headgear & Body Armor.

Anything else coming to people's minds before I flood the thread with text again? For instance, I ask again if anyone has any thoughts about Staves.

I just did another test with one of Doku's team. His scholar can still target my oracle for damage with bio 2 whereas I think if I remember correctly it's suppose to be 0% due to reflect right?

Yeah, it should be 0%. Reflect has always been all or nothing, with the "nothing" part also coming up if spell was already Reflected.

[Gaignun]

Here are my thoughts with that list.

Golden Hairpin: HP 060 MP 030, Strengthen: Holy, Dark

Removing the MA and reducing the MP is fine, but keep the HP at 70.  60 HP puts it on terms with Thief Hat, which has the universally applicable SP boost.  With its MA lost, mages that don't use Holy or Dark (which I dare say is a significant fraction of the Golden Hairpin userbase) will migrate to a 50-MP Black Hood, anyway.  I think it's best to nerf Golden Hairpin bits at a time, especially if other hats will get buffed.  If Golden Hairpin still seems too attractive, then we can slash its HP as well.

Santa Outfit, Black Costume, Rubber Costume: HP 100 MP 020, Absorb: ...

No to the MP boost.  These clothes see enough use for their elemental absorption.

Brigandine: HP 120 MP 030

I personally find robes to be the equipment responsible for MP boosting.  If you put 30 MP on Brigandine, non-robe classes will go to Brigandine without ever bothering with Equip Clothes, and robe classes will choose Brigandine over Silk Robe since an equal exchange of MP for HP, when paired with an MP-boosting hat, is worthwhile (except for Paladin, perhaps).  If non-robe classes want extra MP without sacrificing their support ability for Equip Clothes, they look to hats.  Putting 50 MP on Black Hood is a significant buff in this regard.

That said, I'm comfortable with Brigandine having a few MP, like 15 or 20.

[Barren]

Just did a couple of test with reflect. Now I know that white magic esuna bounces off reflect, but for some reason bio 2 can pierce through reflect. I know lore spells like quake and tornado ignore reflect but I thought bio 2 was suppose to be reflected. And no it wasn't dispelled or worn off before hand. this happened in the beginning of the fight

[FFMaster]

Then I seriously have no idea what is happening. Bio 2 is flagged reflectable in my ISO. Open it in your ISO and check. It should be the first Bio 2 in the list.

[Barren]

Opened the patch with FFTpatcher and did check the bio 2 (1st on the list) and it is reflectable....maybe there's something wrong with reflect ring

[The Damned]

(So I guess no one has anything pressing to say about Staves. Good to know.)

Barren, can you be more precise about when/where on the map this is happening? Is it near the edges? Is the Reflect animation just not coming up at all? Did you record any of this?

Golden Hairpin: HP 060 MP 030, Strengthen: Holy, Dark

*rock*

Santa Outfit, Black Costume, Rubber Costume: HP 100 MP 020, Absorb: ...

*paper*

Brigandine: HP 120 MP 030

*scissors*

Decent points all. In thinking about it more, I agree that Golden Hairpin shouldn't take an HP drop.

The other two I'm not so sure about, especially since the issue with Brigandine was partly why I was asking for Silk Robe to have more MP.

As for the absorbing equipment, perhaps compromise and have them get 10 MP, while Earth Clothes get 15-20 MP and Brigandine gets 15 or 20 or even 25?

[Malroth]

Well about Staves,  I'd Like it if Geomancers could equip them but thats just a minor quibble and fixable with equip magegear.  White Staff should probably be holy elemental to go along with its Dia Proc.  and I still don't see the Point of Rainbow Staff.  Perhaps add Immune:oil 100% add oil and make it non 2swords ?

Edit:  nevermind the add oil suggestion,  i just noticed its still ALL elemental and that would be way too powerful if it added oil.   Still Be somewhat pointless to use under any circumstance though.

[The Damned]

(Rainbow Staff actually isn't All Elemental anymore. That's just a typo.)

Even if it isn't a typo, Rainbow Staff is becoming non-elemental next version considering that it was supposed to be non-elemental starting back at 138a. Additionally, even if it was it's probably going to get Block: Oil anyway if the "make Crystal Shield an accessory with Block: Oil" suggestion goes through since they share the same Item Attribute.

Besides, even if Rainbow Staff was All Elemental, aside from spellguns(' BS), no regular element weapon attack should cause double damage on an Oil-covered target unless someone "fixed"/changed that. Even when Oil just caused weakness to Fire, Asura didn't cause double damage when just attacking.

[Barren]

Next chance I get I'll record my findings on reflect and then we'll determine if there's something with it or not.

[Dokurider]

White Staff is worthless. Any class that has access to this weapon has better offensive options or is better off not even trying. Wizard Staff is just a Wizard Rod clone and should be differentiated. If they really want the +2 MA that badly, just slap on a C Bag.

White Staff: Initial: Shell
Wizard Staff: Initial: Protect
Gold Staff: 20 W-Ev
Rainbow Staff: Immune: Oil

I think Cloths will be fine with sharing their attributes seeing they're used with completely different setups/units. They are also only available to Dancers, and not all that used in the first place, so conflict will be minimal.

[reinoe]

I know there was some talk about this but I don't know what the end result was.  Can the geomancy effects for Carve Model (petrify) and pitfall (don't move) be switched around?  As mentioned previously Carve Model can just ruin a team and there are multiple entire stages that trigger nothing but Carve Model.

[Dokurider]

How about switching with Local Quake instead? Because it's already done.

[Malroth]

I like Gold staff's 100% dispel proc