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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

dw6561

Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
@dw6561:
I'll try commenting on a few of your changes.

Buffing Geomancers' PA/MA to 10/8 and 8/10: I think this change makes Squires less attractive on all fronts.  Squires have only 10/6 and 8/8 PA/MA, and worse, only 3 move.  The only jobs that can currently use Elemental better than Geomancers are Bards/Dancers and Scholars; three classes that may be redesigned in the next patch.  If these redesigns are implemented, Geomancers might just become the best users of Elemental.  All this aside, Geomancers are also the only class that can use Elemental well and equip a useful support skillset like White Magic or Time Magic.  These boons tend to compensate the slightly weaker Elemental damage in practice.

Samurai getting longbows and spears: I am in favour of this.  For what it's worth, samurai using longbows is historically accurate.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.

Aegis Shield being too good: I personally think that the other shields are rather bad. In particular, the shields that give elemental weaknesses are hard to use on classes with no access to clothes.  Perhaps we can drop Aegis Shield's M-EV by 5~10 if need be.  Removing the +1 MA or Silence immunity would make the shield less attractive to mages, who learn Equip Shield specifically for those attributes.

0 WP bag: If any bag gets 0 WP, I suggest it be P Bag.

Oracles losing Blind: Not necessary in my opinion.  The problem with Blind isn't so much about its host skillset as it is about the AI being incapable of using it well.  One, the AI gives the Darkness status ailment a low priority, and two, the AI cannot discern which enemies rely on abilities that will be impaired by Darkness.  Unless somebody can convince me otherwise, I don't think these facts will change no matter which skillset we put Blind on.  This is why there's been a motion to add Darkness incidentally rather than especially, e.g., by having Grand Cross and Cyclops add Darkness.  This way, even if Darkness doesn't impair the target, the target at least suffers raw damage.


Thanks for the feedback Gaignun. I'll have to admit that I'm not really used to the whole balancing thing at the moment, and it helps to know why things are the way they are. Maybe I should read up on some of the earlier stuff so that that I know why changes were made, just to save myself some trouble/embarrassment. And everything you said makes sense.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.


On a brighter note, that is an excellent take on the jump issue that I hadn't considered.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Reks

On the topic of changes, I wanted to look through Swords and such and see what could be tweaked about each or changed in general or just compile what suggestions people had already.

Phoenix Blade: W-EV 10%
Tactician's Blade: No change necessary.
Mystic Blade: 10 WP
Moonlight: Blade Beam Proc change from 33% to 50%
Blood Sword: NCN
Coral Sword: NCN
Ancient Sword: NCN
Sleep Sword: NCN
Platinum Sword: 13 WP
Shieldrender: Change to Rapier, W-EV 20-25% WP 10, 2H
Icebrand: NCN
Rune Blade: NCN
Lionheart: NCN
Ultima Weapon: Proc increased to 50%

All in all, most are fine as they are.



Also, something I've noticed. While I'm more than glad to support Samurai gaining access to Spears (and bows but spears are the focus for this)

What would prevent people from using a Spear (if some gain 2H) over a Katana, since most Spears have more WP than Katanas do, with more range? Not too big of a concern, just something I thought might happen.
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Barren

August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pm #1782 Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 01:12:48 pm by Barren
We would have to allow all spears to be two handed for it to work. Like a two handed dragon whisker is a bad ass weapon for the samurai considering its awesome WP.

Of course we should lower the WP a bit in order for it to be a bit balanced. Like maybe to 12 WP or something. Javelin can stay at 9 and the other spears should be 10 or 11

Also for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: Barren on August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pm
We would have to allow all spears to be two handed for it to work. Like a two handed dragon whisker is a bad ass weapon for the samurai considering its awesome WP.

Of course we should lower the WP a bit in order for it to be a bit balanced. Like maybe to 12 WP or something. Javelin can stay at 9 and the other spears should be 10 or 11

Also for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work


I worded that weird.

I'd meant more along the lines of:

Why use a katana for offense purposes when, if spears are made largely 2H, they'd be utterly superior?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Barren

Because samurais has used spears as weapons and if you watched the Seven Samurai or the anime Samurai Seven, the Seven Samurai taught the villagers to use bow and arrow to fight off the bandits who would rob them of their rice. That's the historical context of why it makes sense.

In reality though it gives samurai more physical damage options aside from katana. Though katanas should still deal the most damage for them. Assuming we increase the katana WP
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

dw6561

I agree that if most/all spears become two handed that the WP should be decreased. If katanas get a significant WP increase though, some should maybe loose 2S or something. We should also consider the impact this will have on lancers and paladins. Also, is there a consensus on how to change the masamune yet? I think I've heard something along the lines of -1 speed, always: haste but I'm not too sure.

As for the nether spells, were we thinking of moving the quake/tornado spells to netherseer in the form of nether wind and nether earth, or are we just using the animations for them?
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Barren

-1 speed on the masamune sounds more reasonable than -2 and always haste. Its a bit of a pace breaker or rather non ideal for a unit to always hasted. Obviously a neat trick is to give it an item that is immune to slow i.e. diamond armlet or sprint shoes for even more speed. I suppose if you want a unit that has low hp but always hasted you can do for example a thief with equip heavy blade and give like item for secondary or punch art if you want to combine charm + death sentence. Masamune, Thief Hat, Secret Clothes, Sprint Shoes. The thief would end up with 11 speed (as it stands right now) but with haste s/he would have like 14 speed (if I'm doing my numbers right).

As for tornado/quake I think its fine the way they are. Except for maybe raising the CT so it'll take longer for it to cast in exchange for great power. That I do agree should be nerfed. The MP cost also justifies the CT change
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Kurosabes


If the spears WP is lowered, this would significantly affect the jump damage.

Samurais could use poles instead of spears. It's a really underused weapon type and it wouldn't be very different from spears.
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Reks

If Netherseers are really wanted to be a thing, and no current sprite would just quite fit, then I could make a few sketches for anyone who would want to sprite them

I have more than a few ideas in mind, so I'll give that a go sometime today or tomorrow.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Gaignun

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 17, 2015, 08:14:14 pm
If the spears WP is lowered, this would significantly affect the jump damage.

Samurais could use poles instead of spears. It's a really underused weapon type and it wouldn't be very different from spears.


This is true.  Giving Samurai poles instead of spears would indeed cause fewer headaches with Jump.  However, there are a few points to consider:

At the moment, the highest damage a samurai (without berserk) can achieve with katana is 330~463 damage (Asura Knife, 13 PA, Attack UP, 2H).  With poles, this becomes 346~485 (Whale Whisker, 14 MA, Attack UP, 2H, 108 Gems).  Ivory Rod is a close second at 340~476 with 18 MA, Attack UP, and 2H. Although the damage between katana and poles are comparable, poles have two significant advantages over katana:

  • Poles have +1 range, so they are much easier to use in battle.

  • Poles can be boosted by MA, which also makes Draw Out more effective.


So, while giving samurai poles avoids requiring a spear rebalance, it will buff the samurai class much more than spears would, and might even make the katana class obsolete in the metagame.  Be it spears or poles, we will probably need to fine-tune things to keep everything balanced.

Kurosabes



Part of the issue with poles being so strong on the Samurais is due to female Samurai having 11 MA while the male Samurai only gets 9 PA. I would prefer for female Samurais to have a viable physical attack option and not remain restrained to Draw Outs despite the new weapon options that would be available to them. If they are set at 10 PA and 10 MA respectively, it could bring some edge back to katanas, but would 10 PA on male Samurais be too much?

Whether it's spears or poles, they would stand somewhere between bows and katanas for damage, probably closer to the latter, I'm thinking 75% of the way. I did a bit of math with bows like you  have with katanas and poles:

Atheist Bow: 141~198 damage (12 PA, 8 SP, A-UP)
Ultimus Bow: 143~200 damage (14 PA, 8 SP, A-UP)
Windslash Bow: 122~171 damage (11 PA, 9 SP, A-UP, 108 Gems)

(My suggested PA/MA changes not taken into account in the calculations. I also ignored Zodiac compatibility, so the following numbers may be off a bit)

There may be better damage setups but it's just to use as a measurement. If we wanted poles/spears to be 75% of the way between bows and katanas damage-wise, then:

Strongest Pole/Spear on a Samurai: 283~397 damage

As a result, Iron Fan would drop to 11 WP and Whale Whisker becomes 8 WP. But the WP drops wouldn't be as drastic if the base PA/MA values are changed. (Assuming poles are chosen of course. Spears would have no choice but to get that drastic WP drop)
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Gaignun

August 18, 2015, 07:15:26 am #1791 Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 07:37:48 am by Gaignun
Dropping samurai MA by 1 would be a good start.  Concerning katana, we could either give samurai +1 PA or give some katana +1 WP.

I don't think all poles need to become two-handable. Unlike katana, this weapon class is shared with several other jobs.  Dropping the WP of all poles so that they are only viable when two-handed will hurt these other jobs.

@Reks: Concerning Rapier, didn't a high W-EV sword that was never used exist in a previous patch?  Anyway, I am wondering if there is some way to make Platinum Sword more appealing without increasing its WP to avoid power creep.  Could we merge Rapier and Platinum Sword into a single weapon with 12 WP and 15~20 WP?

Quote from: Barren on August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pmAlso for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work


Well, Netherseers are currently sitting with only 8 active skills right now, so I think there's room for it.  It could be something like:

Dark Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark element, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, Evadable, Reflectable, 400 JP

Although this name isn't thematically consistent, and Nether Dark would sound like it adds the status effect.  Might anyone have any recommendations?

Quote from: Reks on August 17, 2015, 09:44:06 pm
If Netherseers are really wanted to be a thing, and no current sprite would just quite fit, then I could make a few sketches for anyone who would want to sprite them

I have more than a few ideas in mind, so I'll give that a go sometime today or tomorrow.


That sounds great, Reks.

Reks

August 18, 2015, 10:53:43 am #1792 Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 11:23:37 am by Reks
Quote from: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 07:15:26 am@Reks: Concerning Rapier, didn't a high W-EV sword that was never used exist in a previous patch?  Anyway, I am wondering if there is some way to make Platinum Sword more appealing without increasing its WP to avoid power creep.  Could we merge Rapier and Platinum Sword into a single weapon with 12 WP and 15~20 WP?


The Rapier idea is mostly to replace the Shieldrender, so the actual W-EV isn't so important. Since it'd effectively double attack now and again, having higher W-EV might be a stretch, so I'd be more than happy to support Platinum Swords gaining it instead
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Gaignun

August 18, 2015, 12:06:09 pm #1793 Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:22:02 pm by Gaignun
Wait, does the Rapier inherit Shieldrender's Shield Break proc?



Following up on samurai stuff, if we drop samurai MA by 1, then Whale Whisker and Asura Knife will have equal power with optimum equipment.  From there, we can either boost samurai PA or katana WP.  My vote is for katana WP so that katana are more attractive to paladins.  If Asura Knife's WP increases from 10 to 11, then Asura Knife's WP will become marginally more powerful than Platinum Sword (at 12 WP) for Paladins -- a fair trade considering Asura Knife is blocked by Fire resistance.

Bear in mind that a male samurai with a 11 WP Asura Knife will 1HKO just about everything: Its max damage increases to 363~509.  However, given how difficult it is to field a melee samurai, and how inept this samurai will be at using his own primary skillset, I am personally OK with this.

Among poles, the only poles samurai are currently able to wield with two hands are Ivory Rod and Whale Whisker.  I suggest poles get mixed up a bit.  How does the following sound?

Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

These proposals make poles weapons whose procs require high faith to be effective.  The semi-reliable proc rates means that they can serve a purpose even without Two Hands, particularly on Oracles with low Fury. Gokuu Rod's Innocent proc is removed to avoid redundancy with the new Atheist Bow, and Ivory Rod's +2 MA is removed to avoid MA-stacking and to encourage players to equip other poles.  Iron Fan is made Dark elemental for a slight damage boost with Golden Hairpin/108 Gems and also because there are so few Dark elemental weapons in existence.

The above are merely suggestions.  Feel free to chime in.  I am sure there are better ideas.

Mudvayne

August 18, 2015, 12:10:38 pm #1794 Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:17:41 pm by Mudvayne
I think going 10 PA/MA for Male/Female (respectively) Samurais would be okay. Male samurais really need some extra PA IMO. They are semi-lackluster damage dealers unless you make them berserk and PA stacked which can do huge numbers but gives the unit really only one purpose at that point. I think seeing a few more skills using a PA as opposed to the MA formula also will see some more use out of male samurais with the slightly buffed PA stat. Poles are a great addition but they really do boost the damage output significantly. I think spears would be ok, but obviously whatever weapon class we go with there will be kinks to work out. Samurai as is, is a fine class. Not necessarily the best SCC class, but for sure a great class to have on any team. I think adding a new weapon option and maybe giving them different PA/MA (or maybe give them 9 speed? Not sure how we would decide on adjusting the PA/MA if they do see a speed increase but, Samurais really do struggle to be even a semi-speedy unit reaching even 10(+) speed, and I don't think 9 base SP would be too OP).

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 12:06:09 pm
Wait, does the Rapier inherit Shieldrender's Shield Break proc?



Following up on samurai stuff, if we drop samurai MA by 1, then Whale Whisker and Asura Knife will have equal power with optimum equipment.  From there, we can either boost samurai PA or katana WP.  My vote is for katana WP so that katana are more attractive to paladins.  If Asura Knife's WP increases from 10 to 11, then Asura Knife's WP will become marginally more powerful than Platinum Sword (at 12 WP) for Paladins -- a fair trade considering Asura Knife is blocked by Fire resistance.

Bear in mind that a male samurai with a 11 WP Asura Knife will 1HKO just about everything: Its max damage increases to 363~509.  However, given how difficult it is to field a melee samurai, and how inept this samurai will be at using his own primary skillset, I am personally OK with this.

Among poles, the only poles samurai are currently able to wield with two hands are Ivory Rod and Whale Whisker.  I suggest poles get mixed up a bit.  How does the following sound?

Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

These proposals make poles weapons whose procs require high faith to be effective.  The semi-reliable proc rates means that they can serve a purpose even without Two Hands, particularly on Oracles with low Fury. Gokuu Rod's Innocent proc is removed to avoid redundancy with the new Atheist Bow, and Ivory Rod's +2 MA is removed to avoid MA-stacking and to encourage players to equip other poles.  Iron Fan is made Dark elemental for a slight damage boost with Golden Hairpin/108 Gems and also because there are so few Dark elemental weapons in existence.

The above are merely suggestions.  Feel free to chime in.  I am sure there are better ideas.


Yes, it is.

Mostly because, as it is, the Shieldrender is next to useless. I don't believe anybody has used it in the current version, so my idea was to give it more WP but take away it's 2H capabilities to make it more enticing for a potential double-attack/shield destroyer, especially if shields get improved this time around.
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CT5Holy

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 18, 2015, 12:10:38 pm
I think going 10 PA/MA for Male/Female (respectively) Samurais would be okay. Male samurais really need some extra PA IMO. They are semi-lackluster damage dealers unless you make them berserk and PA stacked which can do huge numbers but gives the unit really only one purpose at that point. I think seeing a few more skills using a PA as opposed to the MA formula also will see some more use out of male samurais with the slightly buffed PA stat. Poles are a great addition but they really do boost the damage output significantly. I think spears would be ok, but obviously whatever weapon class we go with there will be kinks to work out. Samurai as is, is a fine class. Not necessarily the best SCC class, but for sure a great class to have on any team. I think adding a new weapon option and maybe giving them different PA/MA (or maybe give them 9 speed? Not sure how we would decide on adjusting the PA/MA if they do see a speed increase but, Samurais really do struggle to be even a semi-speedy unit reaching even 10(+) speed, and I don't think 9 base SP would be too OP).


Remember, a lot of little things add up. I would object to bumping Samurai base speed up to 9. Implementing the katana and PA changes and boosting the speed means we're letting the Samurai hit for a ton, and more often as well. Jobs with 9 base speed are plenty strong and are used at a pretty high rate. 7/20 jobs have 9+ base speed, but these jobs are represented more in strong teams, based on the top 8 of S3 and S4. In S3, two-thirds of the units (22/32) were a job with 9+ base speed. In S4, half (16/32) of the units in top 8 had a job with 9+ base speed.

Let's also remember what Gaignun said a little while ago - just because an item isn't being used, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Shieldrender looks like a totally reasonable option. Same with Platinum Sword. In fact, Platinum Sword is prob your best bet for getting OHKOs off a melee attack right now.

I think perhaps looking at items/abilities that weren't used in the two most recent tournaments would give us a better idea of which what's generally perceived as "bad."
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

reinoe

Agreed.  Once it was shown that Shieldrender can double strike it was starting to see a lot of play which caused it to be nerfed.  Same with Bowguns. 

What we can do is choose some rarely used items and see how they work in reality vs perception.
My dreams can come true!

Reks

Quote from: CT5Holy on August 18, 2015, 04:31:26 pm
Remember, a lot of little things add up. I would object to bumping Samurai base speed up to 9. Implementing the katana and PA changes and boosting the speed means we're letting the Samurai hit for a ton, and more often as well. Jobs with 9 base speed are plenty strong and are used at a pretty high rate. 7/20 jobs have 9+ base speed, but these jobs are represented more in strong teams, based on the top 8 of S3 and S4. In S3, two-thirds of the units (22/32) were a job with 9+ base speed. In S4, half (16/32) of the units in top 8 had a job with 9+ base speed.

Let's also remember what Gaignun said a little while ago - just because an item isn't being used, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Shieldrender looks like a totally reasonable option. Same with Platinum Sword. In fact, Platinum Sword is prob your best bet for getting OHKOs off a melee attack right now.

I think perhaps looking at items/abilities that weren't used in the two most recent tournaments would give us a better idea of which what's generally perceived as "bad."
Quote from: reinoe on August 18, 2015, 04:42:19 pm
Agreed.  Once it was shown that Shieldrender can double strike it was starting to see a lot of play which caused it to be nerfed.  Same with Bowguns. 

What we can do is choose some rarely used items and see how they work in reality vs perception.


Yes, and it's seen that the nerf made it harder to use when you simply have better options out there.

Shieldrender still works, so to speak.

You can still 2H it, and go rawr in someone's face for a lot of damage.

But the problem is that the same result can be achieved more easily and without the occasional proc, and people haven't used it whatsoever in the last two tournaments, probably for a good reason.

After I work tonight, I'll play around with Shieldrender on mock fights and compare it to other things, but as it stands I do believe it could be made better than it's current, nerfed incarnation without becoming OP.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Heroebal

Shieldrender's use I feel is too isolated atm. I could see it causing trouble for some shield absorption and/or grand cross users, but I don't know if it would a deal breaker. And after it does shield breaking you have a low wp and w-ev sword. If not changed to rapier, maybe increase w-ev on it to like 15-20% or rename it bladerender give it 33% weapon break. Not sure if weapon break would be too OP though, although it would encourage more maintenance usage.