Any alternative to removing laws...

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Just because it's random doesn't mean it lacks tactics.  Preparing for unexpected situations or events is a huge part of planning and strategy, and a huge part of most competitive games.  Randomness doesn't take away strategy in and of itself, it forces you to adapt to a new situation on the fly.

If you hop over to the Arena Subforum, my AI Battling Guide involves not one but two entries involving luck.  Luck will fuck you or win it for you, that's true of almost every game in existence no matter how competitive it is, and you've got to accept that, but luck alone will not remove tactics from the game, and in many ways adds them when done correctly.  We're also talking about FFTA, which has things like randomized stat growths.  "Getting lucky" is a bit more noticeable in FFTA than FFT, so there's no reason not to take advantage of that fact in a positive way.

Also, I'm actually a really vicious tactical bastard when it comes to Mario Party and almost win because of it.  I've only played through 7, but I use lots of foreplanning as far as that game goes.  It's very luck-based, but luck has averages, and all it takes is a backup plan to recover you when you get rough beats.

As for the Judge moving around... does he really need to do that?  Can't we just disable that fucker's turn entirely?  Or does he do something I'm not entirely aware of or remembering on his turns besides walk around and be an annoying fucker?

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

Even if you can find out what's coming up next, checking the laws every few turns will slow the battle down again.

[Kaijyuu]

I think he moves so as to avoid any problems with him being a wall.

Anywho, re: luck.

There IS something to be said about manipulating luck to your advantage. This is the basis of games like poker, after all. The problem with laws being randomized though, is that they can be incredibly debilitating to just about any strategy. The wrong set of laws will completely destroy your strategy, rather than forcing you to simply adapt it to the new rules. Giving warning eliminates that possibility. It's still randomized, but planning ahead is no longer a crapshoot.

Even if you can find out what's coming up next, checking the laws every few turns will slow the battle down again.

It's been a while since I've played FFTA, but aren't laws shown on the screen during gameplay? Simply glancing up to the top of the screen is not going to slow down the game by more than a few milliseconds.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Giving a peek still defeats the point, you're not truly adapting to a constantly changing situation.  To use your own example, it's like playing Poker while being able to see the opponent's hand.  Sometimes you won't be able to beat their hand anyway, but you'll know exactly how to act against it no matter what.

If your strategy is getting completely destroyed, its either too reliant on a single thing or in some cases, the Laws are just too far-reaching.  (The ever-too-hated Dmg2Race comes to mind.)  The first is entirely on your head and a conscious risk you took when taking such a party into battle, because you know how the Law system functions and can only blame yourself if your lopsided party gets completely denied.  In the latter, obviously something should be done, but it's not the fault of the randomizing system, but the fault of the Law itself.  Sometimes, rarely, you might get the exact combination that makes everything you try to do pointless but somehow, in some way, doesn't cripple the AI.  That's what we call rough beats.  Shit happens.

[Kaijyuu]

Giving a peek still defeats the point, you're not truly adapting to a constantly changing situation.  To use your own example, it's like playing Poker while being able to see the opponent's hand.  Sometimes you won't be able to beat their hand anyway, but you'll know exactly how to act against it no matter what.

Err, choosing your actions based on randomized laws is adapting to a constantly changing situation. The situation is constantly changing. You are adapting to it. The only difference is you're not being blindsided by debilitating effects that cannot be countered without extreme versatility. Forcing the player to use 5 vastly different units so that they are never completely screwed over is limiting the player to rather few choices in team makeup. If you can see what's coming, you can adapt your strategy to the changing laws even with the least versatile team. Maybe your 5 bangaa lancers will have to hide in a corner for a few turns, but that's better than being nuked with a law change while your units are vulnerable (or do we want the player to always be defensive in the case of bad law changes, too?).

As for the poker thing, I wasn't using it as an analogy, but rather an example of a game where strategy still exists despite luck. I was just pointing out that luck does not inherently destroy strategy provided it is done well. Don't directly compare FFTA to poker, since they're vastly different games.

If your strategy is getting completely destroyed, its either too reliant on a single thing or in some cases, the Laws are just too far-reaching.

The latter. Fix that and you've fixed my complaint about laws being able to completely destroying any strategy that isn't extreme versatility.

Forcing the player to adapt is fine. Nuking them is not. If there's no chance (no matter how small) of extreme, instant debilitation going on, 95% of my complaints vanish.

That's what we call rough beats.  Shit happens.

I don't consider that sort of outcome to be an acceptable one in a strategy game. If you lose, it should be because you were out played by your opponent. Nothing else.
Randomization still has a place provided you can manipulate it. Even then, the chances of making you lose due to luck should be minimized as much as possible. Again, this is chess, not poker, not mario party.



Writing this up has made me realize why I dislike laws so much. What they do is corral you. They take AWAY your freedom of team makeup. What's most grating about it is it's done in a meta fashion; other parts of the game encourage or discourage different team makeups, true, but they do so in a way that makes sense (bringing only mages with fire spells to a volcano with fire monsters isn't a good idea). Laws on the other hand, are completely arbitrary.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

If the penalties for laws aren't as severe - and if the bonuses are useful - then the arbitrary nature of laws isn't as big of an issue.

And no, laws aren't displayed in a heads-up display or something like that.  You have to set the L (or is it R?) button to hotkey Laws, and that will call them up when you press it, but only on an inactive turn (not while the enemy is moving.  I really think there should be a HUD for the current law and the upcoming law, which can be toggled on and off.

Judges move when their turn comes up - they have really low speed, so it's very annoying early in the game and barely noticable once you're above level 30.  They blow their whistle when you break a law, run up to you, and give you a card and/or kick you out.  They also move dead bodies around so you can't create walls from them, which is whey they have turns - and speed - in the first place.

If you could immobilize judges - make them act just like the breakable objects in some missions, but give them turns every once in a while (it's the moving and decision making hesitation that makes them such time-wasters, and they usually move so they're close enough to get in your way.  They should move as far away from you as possible.) and make them untargetable and undamagable, then they'll be okay.

[Ethereal Embrace]

I guess I'm okay with recycling laws but every other turn seems like huge hassle maybe ever 4-5 turns.  I wanted there to be an in-battle equip skill like the one that Chemists have, but say that you break a law and that you lose that equip for the battle (therefore, unable to gain the AP for that skill, if any), then you couldn't use that option.  If I'm correct, there is an equip weapon option that anyone can use in battle as long as they aren't equiping one at the moment.

Law cycling sounds great, but battles are already incredibly slow as it is, including waiting on judges to move around.  Having a law roulette every few turns could make a random encounter last almost an hour.

That's why I have a VBA and hold the space button when it's not my turn.

[Darthatron]

Without laws, half the plot makes no sense. At least with this, the plot is kept in tact.

I agree with some points made. Laws should cycle randomly in Tier 2 as well (or Tier 2 shouldn't include Dmg2Race laws.)

Here's my idea for the three Tiers. Feel free to flame them down.

Code Select Expand

#  Tier 1         Tier 2         Tier 3
--------------------------------------------
1  Fight          Fight          Fight
2  Items          Items          Items
3  Swords         Techniques     Techniques
4  Knives         Skills         Skills
5  Broadswords    Dmg2Animal     Dmg2Animal
6  Knightswords   Missile        Dmg2Human
7  Greatswords    Healing        Dmg2Bangaa
8  Missile        Copycat        Dmg2Nu Mou
9  Rapiers        Time Magic     Dmg2Viera
10  Instruments    Color Magic    Dmg2Moogle
11  Blades         Control        Healing
12  Protect        Addle          Copycat
13  Shell          Bind           Petrify
14  Poison         Charm          Katana
15  Confuse        Stop           Bind
16  Fire           Slow           Charm
17  Ice            Haste          Status
18  Lightning      Silence        Stop
19  Wind           Protect        Slow
20  Earth          Shell          Haste
21  Dark           Poison         Silence
22  Holy           Confuse        Target Area
23  Charm          Target Area    Target All
24  Stop           Fire           Fire
25  Slow           Ice            Ice
26  Haste          Lightning      Lightning
27  Silence        Wind           Wind
28  Addle          Earth          Earth
29  Bind           Dark           Dark
30  Control        Holy           Holy

[Desocupado]

Could law breaking effects be edited?
Perhaps a 50% current HP damage for yellow and a 99% current HP for red woudl suit best.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Those lists look fine to my untrained eye.  Dmg2Animal in the second tier seems a bit off but I guess it generally wouldn't be as powerful as the others.  As long as it cycles away, it's not so bad.

As for Law Cycling... a second idea is to cycle based on the law itself.  Say... All Dmg2X only last for a single round, a weak one like Poison lasts 3-4, etc.  This way you can add a secondary balance to wide-reaching or just annoying Laws by controlling how long they stay in effect in addition to their tiering.  Obviously a different concept from what I discussed before, but also pretty worthwhile to pursue personally.  If you can't tell, I'm rather in favor of finding the best way to implement Law Cycling, because a good implementation and adjusting the punishments for breaking them is the best means to save it personally.

[Darthatron]

It was just going to randomly change when the Judge has a turn. He blows his whistle and the new laws pop up. Boosting the Judge's speed will change how often laws are changed. I want to make it closer to other units speed, so the laws change roughly once every unit has had a turn.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Works for me.

[Dome]

Having to check each turn which law is in effect sounds painful...

[Darthatron]

They won't change each turn. They'll change once every time the Judge has a turn. Or I could make it only change once every few turns..?

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Every Judge turn sounds fine by me.  You can just manipulate his Speed to make the Laws cycle more or less often, after all.