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Discussion: Stat Modifications

Started by Ethereal Embrace, April 09, 2011, 08:05:34 pm

Ethereal Embrace

April 09, 2011, 08:05:34 pm Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 08:37:10 pm by Ethereal Embrace
This topic is meant for discussing how stat growths of jobs in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance should be modified in an attempt to further balance the game.

Note:  I have no real hacking experience nor do I have any hint of the progress made to re-balance the game.  Because of the that, opinions may vary significantly until a further unified, and general consensus is reached.  Opinions are greatly valued here, please don't hesitate to state your own.

Obviously there are certain factors there have to be examined when one should determine the modified stat growths, they are:
1.  Common Sense - Self-explanatory, this should perhaps have the biggest influence, just underneath #3.  A Time Mage should not be dealing 200 damage by smacking someone with a "wooden stick", nor should a Fighter have the highest defense in the game.
2.  Actual Game Data - Again, simple enough.  The original stat growths SHOULD NOT be drastically changed unless major editing had been/or is needed in order to balance the game out - which leads into the next factor.
3.  Moveset - Another major factor.  A game where there is one job that simply outclasses all the others in terms of great stats AS WELL as a broken moveset is anything but balanced.  Assassin is the most obvious example, if the moveset is not greatly tampered (in this case, nerfed), then a relatively massive drop in stat growths can be justifiable (although I wouldn't be one in support of such.)  Another example is the Gunner, excellent, if not, broken moveset, yet mostly lackluster stats (barring Defense).  Though the stats aren't the best, that doesn't excuse the fact that the class itself is borderline broken (therefore I believe that the moveset of a Gunner should be edited, rather than the stats themselves).

These are some minor factors that may also be considered:
1.  Race - obviously a Hume Black Mage should not be magickally stronger than Nu Mou Black Mage.
2.  Stats from FFTA2 - this is SQNX's attempt to balance out the game.  Quite a few jobs are far more reasonable stat-wise here, however there still are some that aren't quite suitable in this game.
3.  Advancement - to simply put, no starting-class should be the best of any stat except MAYBE Black Mage as in many games, they have the highest Magick stat in the game (in this game, however, they have the 2nd highest Resistance instead).  Though the stats between starting-classes and later classes ought to be present, they should be rather minuscule at best.
4.  Distribution - Balanced job classes seem to have quite significantly higher stats than the others (not counting Paladin) like Blue Mage, Sage, Templar, and Gadgeteer.  Not entirely sure as to why that is so, but I do support following this.  As it usually doesn't not seem to be imbalanced excepted in Sage's case.
In FFTA2, Beastmaster was given greater Atk, which is fine if there is something else to compensate, in this case, it was Def (again, the difference was not major).
5.  Stat/Skill buildup - one of the main problems of jobs that have good (not great) skillsets or stats is that their skills do not carry over to other jobs very well despite being fairly good stand-alone jobs.  A good example would  White Monks, they have relatively good stat growths and an exceptional skillset, but neither of them are too useful when used as a different job.  Fencer is included, good skills but, aren't good for really ANY of the other Viera jobs.
6.  Gimmicks - as it seems in both FFTA and FFTA2, gimmicky jobs have either very good stats, or just awful stats along with a bad moveset.  (Most of these classes are in dire need of skill modification rather than their stats.)  The most prominent examples are:  Gadgeteer, Thief (whom have a very significant/broken role), Animist, Morphor, Beastmaster.  Gadgeteer probably has THE BEST stat total in the game:  7.2 Hp, 8.2 Atk, 9.6 Def, 8.3 Mag, 10.2 Res.  But these in no way excuse their horrid moveset, Gadgeteers, next to Thieves, are in most need of a total moveset change.

Other things to discuss:

Special characters - really something extra and is not needed whatsoever, a trait evident in the original Tactics but not in Advance or in A2.  Main/unique characters should have slightly better growths to further distinguish themselves (at least in their base job, that is).  Like how Marche starts as a Soldier and already on the road to being a Paladin/Fighter with no chance of being a good Mage, whatsoever.  And how Montblanc starts as a Black Mage...A MOOGLE Black Mage to be exact, even Bishops exceed Moogle Mages in terms of practically and especially in versatility.  

These two are characters you have from the beginning and I don't believe should be so deeply pigeon holed from the start.  Marche at least has some lee-way as a Hunter or Ninja, but MontBlanc is just...

Again, opinions are much appreciated.

Ethereal Embrace

If there isn't already a Stat Chart out there, here's one I gathered up using the game data.

Order is:  Hp, Mp, Speed, Atk, Def, Mag, Res

- Soldier/Warrior-
Hume:    8.4   1.1   1.1   8.8   8.8   6.0   7.2
Bangaa:  9.2   2.1   0.9   9.2   8.4   6.2   6.8

- Paladin/Defender-
Hume:    7.6   2.2   0.8   8.1   9.2   7.2   8.8
Bangaa:  8.4   1.1   0.9   8.8   9.4   6.5   7.2

- Fighter/Gladiator-
Hume:    7.2   1.1   1.1   9.2   8.1   5.6   6.8
Bangaa:  9.2   2.8   1.1   9.4   8.8   5.9   6.4
- Thief-
Hume:    6.6   1.1   1.8   7.6   7.6   7.6   6.4
Moogle:  5.8   2.2   1.9   7.3   8.4   6.8   7.6

- Ninja-
Hume:    5.8   2.1   2.1   8.4   7.2   8.1   7.6

- White Mage-
Hume:    6.1   4.8   1.2   6.2   7.3   8.4   8.2
Nu Mou: 5.8   5.6   1.1   5.7   7.3   8.8   8.4
Viera:    6.2   4.8   1.2   6.2   7.2   8.8   7.6

- Black Mage-
Hume:    5.6   4.4   1.1   6.4   6.8   8.8   9.6
Nu Mou: 5.4   5.2   0.9   6.2   6.8   9.2   10.2
Moogle:  5.4   4.8   1.1   5.7   7.6   8.4   9.7

- Illusionist-
Hume:    5.2   7.1   0.9   6.1   6.4   9.2   8.4
Nu Mou: 5.1   7.5   0.8   5.7   6.4   9.7   8.7

- Blue Mage-
Hume:    6.8   3.6   1.2   8.1   8.4   8.4   9.2

- Archer-
Hume:    7.2   1.1   1.4   7.2   7.2   6.4   8.1
Viera:     7.2   1.6   1.6   8.1   6.8   7.2   7.6

- Hunter-
Hume:    6.8   3.2   1.7   8.8   6.8   6.8   8.4

- Dragoon-
Bangaa: 8.2   1.2   1.1   9.6   8.4   5.6   6.4

- White Monk-
Bangaa: 6.4   1.1   1.4   8.1   7.6   8.4   6.8

- Bishop-
Bangaa: 6.1   4.6   0.9   7.2   6.8   8.8   7.6

- Templar-
Bangaa: 7.2   3.6   0.8   8.2   9.7   8.4   7.6

- Time Mage-
Nu Mou: 5.2   3.6   1.2   5.6   6.8   10.2   9.6
Moogle:  5.2   3.6   1.2   5.6   7.6   9.2   9.6

- Alchemist-
Nu Mou: 6.1   8.4   0.9   5.9   6.5   9.2   9.6

- Beastmaster-
Nu Mou: 7.4   2.1   1.2   8.8   8.8   6.8   8.4

- Morpher-
Nu Mou: 6.8   2.8   1.6   7.1   8.2   7.6   8.2

- Sage-
Nu Mou: 7.6   8.8   0.8   8.4   7.6   9.2   7.6

- Fencer-
Viera:    7.6   1.1   1.5   8.4   8.1   7.6   7.2

- Elementalist-
Viera:    6.8   4.2   1.1   8.1   7.6   8.8   7.6

- Red Mage-
Viera:    6.8   2.6   1.3   8.1   7.6   8.4   7.6

- Summoner-
Viera:    5.6   6.2   0.9   6.5   6.4   10.1   8.4

- Assassin-
Viera:    5.2   5.2   2.3   8.8   6.8   9.2   7.2

- Sniper-
Viera:    6.2   2.4   1.8   9.4   6.8   7.6   7.6

-Animist-
Moogle:  7.2   2.6   1.2   7.6   8.8   7.2   8.8

- Mog Knight-
Moogle:  7.1   3.2   1.0   8.8   9.6   6.2   8.3

- Gunner-
Moogle:  6.2   1.1   1.1   6.8   9.2   5.6   8.1

- Juggler-
Moogle:  6.8   1.6   1.7   8.2   9.9   6.5   6.5

- Gadgeteer-
Moogle:  7.2   2.4   0.9   8.2   9.6   8.3   10.2

Darthatron

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Darthatron

Pickle Girl Fanboy

Why are you starting with your stats so high?  Why not just go with something like Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen and have units with +1 on stats they don't use and +4 on stats they do use?  It will make it easier to think about stats if they aren't artificially inflated.  And no class should have 0 speed growth, ever.

Ethereal Embrace

I haven't listed any stat changes that I wanted yet, those are all just the actual stat growths from the game data.  I've never played Tactics Ogre so I don't know...

Well anyways, before we go into the individual stats, there are quite a few things that should be addressed that affect the job system as a whole.

  1.  Hp - I have a summoner (highest magick) with Turbo Mp and Black Robe attack my Warrior (highest Hp) and Black Mage (highest Resist).  The attack deals 237 to my Warrior and 186 to my Black Mage. The thing is, my Warrior had 263 Hp and my Black Mage had 158 Hp.
  In short, the massive gap between the different jobs' Hp is ridiculous.  In this example, why does it matter that you have such high Resist when you still won't survive as long as other jobs with much lower Resist because their Hp is so high.  And not mention how you'll fare against physical attack like, I dunno, Holy Blade?

  The other problem with Hp, 2-hit and even 1-hit K.O.s are way too easily.  Not entirely sure to remedy this, perhaps by raising the general Defenses of every job?  And also, raising the effectiveness of Armor in general because they really don't make that much of a difference.

  2.  Mp - this one's also completely obvious, but this also has multiple problems.  One, some jobs have such high Mp growth that you could use Turbo Mp and not worry about losing Mp because you kill them off so fast.  The other problem is that most jobs have such low Mp growth that Matra Magick is borderline cheap for ignoring all traces of Defenses but is nearly useless towards monsters since most of them have their Hp and Mp very close to each other at all levels.
  I have multiple ideas for this one.
     A.  Reduce Mp growths for Mage jobs in general, but slightly increase Mp growths for non-Mage jobs.
     B.  Remove or nerf Turbo Mp (perhaps by getting rid of the Accuracy boost).
     C.  Increase the general Mp usage (Fire: 8 Mp, Fira: 16 Mp, Firaga: 32 Mp, Holy Blade: 48 Mp, Ultima: 64 Mp)
     D.  Slightly decrease the Mp growths of monsters in general to increase the usefulness of Matra Magick towards non-Human targets.

  3.  Speed - If you take a good look at the stat growths, you'll notice that around, if not, more than half of all jobs have a speed of 1.2 or lower.  All the while the lowest is 0.8 and the highest is 2.3 (Assassin) - that's nearly a 3* difference.
  As you said, Pickly Girl Fanboy, I too don't believe that any job should ever have a 0 in speed.  I believe that the speed stat should be so much more equitable, especially on those who have poor stat growths because generally: the poorer the stat growth, the faster. But obviously, such is not always the case.  I'll use the Humes as an example:
  - Soldier:  1.4 Speed (the average)
  - White Mage:   1.6 Speed (I wanted a speed increase because they have undesirable otherwise, Black Mage is usually the much better option barring the lesser Mp, Hp, and Defense.  But since you're a Mage, that doesn't matter much as the difference is diminutive at best).
  - Black Mage:  1.4 Speed
  - Thief:  1.9 Speed
  - Archer:  1.7 Speed (they need a lot of speed because before, their stat growths were even worse than Thieves' which is already pretty bad)
  - Fighter:  1.5 Speed
  - Paladin:  1.1 Speed (equal to the lowest because of a very good stat growth and cheap skill)
  - Ninja:  2.1 Speed (unchanged)
  - Hunter:  1.8 Speed
  - Blue Mage:  1.4 Speed
  - Illusionist:  1.2 Speed
  - Assassin:  2.2 Speed (the highest of all jobs, this way the difference between the lowest and highest is only 2* rather than 3*)
  - White Monk:  1.7 Speed (speed in general for Bangaa is really bad since there's no Master Monk or Trickster, and not to mention, White Monk's stat growths aren't the best because they don't lead well into any other job available to them)

Pickle Girl Fanboy

April 19, 2011, 11:31:37 am #5 Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 11:33:05 am by Pickle Girl Fanboy
HP
+1 =
+2 =
+3 =
+4 = Tanks.

MP
+1 =
+2 =
+3 =
+4 =

PA
+1 = Mages.  They will never need more than this.  Granted, their combos will suck, but maybe someone can find the damage formulas.
+2 =
+3 =
+4 = Purely offensive physical attackers.

PD
+1 = Mages.
+2 =
+3 =
+4 = Tanks.

MA
+1 =
+2 =
+3 =
+4 = Purely offensive magical attackers.  Black Mage.

MD
+1 =
+2 =
+3 =
+4 =

SP
+1 =
+1.1 <-> 1.3 =
+1.4 <-> 1.6 =
+1.7 <-> 1.9 = Ninja
+2 = Theif


I really don't like standalone defense and resistance in a Tactical RPG.  I think they should either be bundled with their offensive brothers (Physical Attack and Defense become Strength, Magical Attack and Resistance become Intelligence), or HP should be the only defense.

Maybe the variation should be +1 to +5.  I'm not sure.  If there weren't defense stats, or if they were bundled with other stats, then I could copy and paste my planned Ogre Battle - March of the Black Queen hack.  The defense stats throw everything off.  That's not good or bad; it just means it will take a bit of subtlety and creativity to make something truly balanced, because you have to consider each classes abilites, equipment, and availibility when you decide what stat gains are appropriate.  This is further complicated by my conviction that FFTA needs about 1/3 of it's classes reorganized and repurposed *coughassassincough*.

I'll make a topic RE my thoughts on class rebalancing tommorrow.

Ethereal Embrace

Okay, thanks, I'm still not sure how that works very well but it makes more sense to me now.
And I'll have to agree that about 1/3rd or all jobs should be reworked (Assassin, Summoner, Tinker, Thief, Ninja, ect.) 
Although that does seem easier to balance, I'm not sure how much work it'll take to implement that into this game.

I was going to make a discussion about how the jobs should be reworked but since Darthratron is the only one working on it, I don't know what he's done to change things.

I'm gonna be out of town, so I might not be able to see for a while, but I'd definitely like to see what you think.

Pickle Girl Fanboy

April 21, 2011, 03:10:08 pm #7 Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 03:12:17 pm by Pickle Girl Fanboy
Here's what I came up with the past few days.

How many abilities are there in this game, and are there any unused/dummy abilities?  And can we modify what formulas an ability uses?  How much is currently modifiable?  How many ARM/Thumb hackers are working on this?  What ideas do you have for new R/S/C abilities?

It will be easier to figure out what stats are appropriate if we have a damage calculator, like the spreadsheet one for FFT.

Darthatron

April 22, 2011, 03:17:13 pm #8 Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 03:20:45 pm by Darthatron
There are 346 (0x15A) abilities. There are no dummies. I can edit the ASM that calculates damage, but it's tedious. Lots is modifiable. Just me. Combos are fine, reactions need to be nerfed (eg Strikeback), support seems fine, except a few.

And yeah, that would be helpful. :P

http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics_Advance:Abilities

EDIT: I don't like the idea of removing Judges, but simply only allowing them to set 1 or 2 laws per battle. They are vital to the plot.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Darthatron

Pickle Girl Fanboy

What formulas are available?  Laws would suck less if the punishments weren't so severe.  And I don't like judges because they slow battles down.

Ethereal Embrace

For balance issues when it comes to Reactions, here's what I got:
- Absorb Mp:  I really don't find this very useful
- Block Arrows:  Kinda ridiculous but isn't a priority.  Maybe instead of blocking all arrow based skills, maybe make it raise evade against arrow skills by like 30 % or something, if possible.
- Damage > Mp:  Broken, already known.  Could be removed.
- Reflex:  Like Block Arrows in that it should either by removed or nerfed.
- Return Magic:  The biggest problem I have with this is that not only is it not that useful but you use the same amount of Mp but only target the one person who hit you.  To fix that, maybe when countering magic, you should use up half of the normal Mp instead of all because otherwise, it's a bit of a waste of good Mp.
- Strikeback:  'Nuff said...

Has anyone else noticed that all reaction abilities cost 300 Ap?  Especially when some really shouldn't be.  Things like Auto-Regen, Absorb Mp, and Counter should cost like 200 Ap instead.

For Supports: things like Shieldbearer, Monkey Grip, and Maintenance aren't all that useful.  Obviously Turbo Mp and Concentrate are overpowered.

As for formulas, there's a guide out there that gives out a lot of these formulas, Darthratron had the link in the other thread.
The only big one that I haven't found from that guide is the healing formula.  I know it involves Magic and the recipient's Max Hp, but other than that...I dunno.

What I really wish, is that we could hold like twice the amount of Law Cards, at least.  But yeah, permanent stat reduction and equipment theft is severely uncalled for.

But does anyone else other than me feel that Armor reduces damage by very little and don't seem that dynamic?  I fought this Paladin with like Golden Armor and my attack was going to do 56 damage but after having that stolen, my character did around 43 damage even though there's like a 36 difference in Defense...

Pickle Girl Fanboy

Yeah, reactions suck.  I was gonna look up a list of reactions, but I can't load gamefaqs right now.

*Absorb MP
I agree, useless as a reaction.  It'd make a great equipment effect though.  It might be useful as a reaction if it further reduces the enemies MP by the amount absorbed, but I doubt that.

*Block Arrows: 
It's Reflex against arrows and arrow-based action abilities.  I don't like it, but a static "evade bonus against all arrow and arrow-based action abilities" equipment effect would be nice.

Unmodified, it's too powerful since the AI can't read Reactions, supremely situational because no one will ever use it against enemies since they can change abilities before a battle, and overpowered for the player because a player will only use it when it's useful while an enemy will use it even when it isn't useful.

Modified, and it's too weak and situational for use by the enemy, since the AI is stupid.

*Damage > MP
If somebody could fix it so excess damage isn't thrown away, then it should be kept.

*Reflex
Should be removed, for the same reasons as Block Arrows.  It should not be retained as an equipment effect.

*Return Magic
It shouldn't use any MP.  And if you really want to go crazy, then add Absorb MP.  I say keep it as a reaction.

*Strikeback
It is reflex + counter.  It should GTFO.


**Supports**

*Shieldbearer
Isn't useful because shields aren't that useful.  Cutting class evasion in half should make them - and this ability - useful, but probably not enough to keep this ability.  Maybe it should allow you to equip any piece of equipment.

*Monkey Grip
It isn't useful because so few classes allow you to equip both two handed weapons, one handed weapons, and shields; and because shields are useless.  If it allowed you to use two handed weapons in one hand and equip shields, then it could be useful, provided shields were useful too.

*Maintenance
Just remove it and make all equipment unmissable.  Please note that unmissable doesn't mean easy to get.

*Concentrate
Remove it and reduce evasion of all classes by half.  You'll never need Concentrate again, battles will be 20% faster, and you have a free slot for a new support ability.

*Turbo MP
It's overpowered because it increases magical potency and accuracy.  Remove the accuracy bonus and reduce the magic boost aspect to 3/4, 2/3, or 1/2 of its current value, and it will work.

*Half MP
I never have any problems running out of MP, except occasionally with MP Turbo.  And this is with a Nu Mou Time mage, whe gets +3 MP per level, using 48 MP Turbo-Boosted Black Magic.  I'd rather have an ability that doubles your max HP.

****

If only one or two laws were ever in effect, and if the penalties for breaking laws weren't so severe, then you wouldn't need more law card slots.  Stat and equipment theft are auto-resets for me.

I agree, R/S abilities cost to much.

I made a thread about R/S/Ms in FFT, and in this thread I uploaded this enormous text document with (incomplete) explorations of R/S/M effects and my thoughts on what should be done with them.  There are some hair-brained ideas in there, but they're much better than the R/S that FFTA has.

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6885.0

Ethereal Embrace


Darthatron

It seems to be missing a lot? Like base stats. All you have is the growth. Plus, I don't know what's edited. I suggest you make a key for what colours mean and apply it to the whole sheet.

Sorry if you think I'm mean. >_<
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Darthatron

Ethereal Embrace

Quote from: Darthatron on May 02, 2011, 06:48:46 am
It seems to be missing a lot? Like base stats. All you have is the growth. Plus, I don't know what's edited. I suggest you make a key for what colours mean and apply it to the whole sheet.

Sorry if you think I'm mean. >_<


I posted the ones for Hp and Speed.  The base Hp is roughly 30 higher than in the original game so that characters would last longer from the start.  Base speed is far more equitable and directly correspondant to the original.  For every diifference in .1 of speed between the jobs, there is about 2 difference in speed.

Well, in the original game, the base stats for Atk, Def, Mag, and Res were always 10* the value of the growth.  Like for Soldier, 8.8 Def and Atk meant that they had a base stat of 88 for them.  I assumed that that would be the way the base stats were going to be in this one too.  (but things like 7.1 meant the base would 70 instead, though).

Mp is, however, the weird one.  I didn't post base Mp because no one ever discussed about it.  But in these stats, the difference in Mp growth is lower in that Physical jobs have slightly higher growth (so that Matra Magick isn't one-hit K.O. too) while mages have much lower.  For example:  the highest before was the Sage at 8.8 Mp growth, while in my stats, the highest is Moogle Time mage at 6.2 with Alchemist at 6.1 and Sage at 3.6 Mp instead.  But okay fine, I'll post the base Mp too.

For anyone that's wondering, I gave Moogles very high Mp in general since they are the weakest of all Mages, and were just bad in general, but mostly because, they don't have Turbo Mp to begin with.

Darthratron, if you want me to, then I can post make another with the changes and original stats in parenthesis, it'll just take some time.

Darthatron

Honestly, the more detailed you make it, the easier it will be to implement. :)
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Ethereal Embrace

Quote from: Darthatron on May 02, 2011, 10:28:57 am
Honestly, the more detailed you make it, the easier it will be to implement. :)


Okay, this will have everything except like evasion in it.  The original stats are in the parenthesis.

http://www.mediafire.com/?30t4f7k97ciakgy

Darthatron

Wonderful! Much better. :) I will have a closer look at it when my break from university starts (in 2 days.)
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  • Discord username: Darthatron

Ethereal Embrace

Quote from: Darthatron on May 03, 2011, 11:31:24 pm
Wonderful! Much better. :) I will have a closer look at it when my break from university starts (in 2 days.)


Eh, it took me a good 3 and half hours to that one...Now, I'll be off to do the monsters' stats...Give me a week or two, lol.

Darthatron

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Darthatron