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Use of ePSXe before 2.0 is highly discouraged. Mednafen/RetroArch is recommended for playing/testing, pSX is recommended for debugging.

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Ansehelm [Posts: 36]
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  • [July 30, 2017, 02:32:25 AM]
Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
« on: July 30, 2017, 02:32:25 AM »
Hey homies, wasn't sure where to put this exactly, hope this is the right place.

So I've known for a while that there was some tension between Arch on the 1.3 ID forums and this site, but can we let that go already?  I'm not interested in hearing old war stories about the reasons behind this schism, valid as they may be, I just mentioned it because I was going to post in the New Projects Section about a project that I'm working on that has some basis in 1.3's changes, and included a link to the ID site where I have a thread (which Arch hasn't been seen around for ages, by the way).  Anyway, as some of you well know, this site changes any mention of "Inzane Difficulty" to "insanely derpy," including in any links. 

Humorous though that may be, I can't help but finding it rather unprofessional - not that we as modders/gamers are paid "professionals" that necessarily need to conform to a standard of impeccable behavior, but for the reason that it seems a little on the medieval side - I find it overly dramatic and it creates a needless divide between two communities with great members that share an appreciation for FFT.  Whatever may be said about Arch, 1.3, which included the work of Philsov and others, was a dang good mod for its time and is what rekindled my interest in FFT.  So can't we all channel our inner hippies, kiss and make up, and recognize the validity of someone else's work, whatever his personal characteristics may have been?  Or if that's not good enough, make up for the sake of the 1.3 forum, which is still semi-active (although less so in the summer months, I've noted)?  Like two cities, these two forums can grow stronger through positive exchange and interaction, or be left to stagnate in their isolation. I say let's "not make war on dead men". But what are y'all gonna do?
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Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4235]
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  • [July 30, 2017, 03:07:23 AM]
Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 03:07:23 AM »
Actually the admins here are friends with most of the staff at ID, so your so-called "divide" between our communities is non-existant. It looks like the problem is just you.

1.3 is not hosted here, it's not our project and Voldemort refuses to give credit where it is due. For the record, philsov worked on 1.1 and 1.2 literally 2 weeks before Voldemort asked to take over and philsov was like: "hmm, I have a fanboy. Sure!". So I'm pretty damn sure what remains of 1.2 in 1.3 is 1 or 2 bytes (if any), as even the original idea has been lost to time.
1.3 is an absolutely terrible base mod. The new sprites are disgusting, the battles promote a single setup to beat each battle (especially in ch4), and even on emuparadise, the original version is rated 3.2/5 versus 4.8/5 for the "content" version. And the content is crap, because just about the only new content there is is some new ugly-ass sprites.

So, why do we need to be able to talk about 1.3 again?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 03:25:19 AM by Xifanie »
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    Angel (Empress) [Posts: 1229]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 03:47:39 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 03:47:39 AM »
    Put more diplomatically, it is very much true that the admins of FFH are on good terms with the admins of ID.

    The thing is, we don't host 1.3. We aren't allowed to host 1.3. That being the case, 1.3 is just a subject to not be brought up. If you want to talk about 1.3, you know where to go, and it isn't here.

    If you want to start a new mod with 1.3 as a base, that's entirely up to you. But do like Emmy and keep a topic going on multiple sites if you must. It's only very slightly tedious, but it satisfies everyone.

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    Bonesy [Posts: 87]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 04:22:15 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 04:22:15 AM »
    everything i've heard about 1.3 amounts to it stinks more than a dead fish lol
    Ansehelm [Posts: 36]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 05:32:02 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 05:32:02 AM »
    Hey now, let's not shoot the messenger. I have no agenda other than happening to enjoy some of the features of 1.3 and wishing to improve on some of its flaws.  If that's a problem, then there clearly is a division.  I'm glad that there is a good relationship between FFH and ID; although I hope you can see how one might think otherwise based on the observation I mentioned.

    Quote
    1.3 is an absolutely terrible base mod. The new sprites are disgusting, the battles promote a single setup to beat each battle (especially in ch4)...
    Naturally you are welcome to regard it as you may. Yes, most ch4 battles were not well designed.  And sure, the Marche sprite (which I've scrapped for my mod) was garbage, but IIRC the other ones were imported from WOTL, so I don't really see a problem there.  The tonberry was actually quite good, and the cactuar...not my fave, but marginally passable.  Anyway, what I liked most about 1.3 was its redesign of generic abilities and jobs that were useful, compelling, and close to the intent of vanilla.  Are there other mods that do this?  Sure, but none that come to my mind as being clearly better than 1.3 while still keeping the flavor of vanilla.  That's why I've considered using 1.3 as a base, while doing my best to correct the issues you've pointed out. 

    Quote
    Put more diplomatically...
    Thank you for that.  I have no problem with 1.3 not being discussed here for logistical/ownership reasons.  I only wanted to point out that the antagonism and use of epithets (read: politics) is unnecessary (as is the antagonism by implication towards anyone who enjoyed 1.3 on any level).  If Arch was just a leech that ripped off someone else's hard work and made it worse, fine.  Let his mod die in obscurity and let its own poor quality speak for itself, trusting in the judgment of the players. Calling names will not bury him any deeper but rather tends to undermine the credibility of those who do it, which is unfortunate considering the high esteem in which I and others hold them and their contributions to this site. 

    Quote
    everything i've heard about 1.3 amounts to it stinks more than a dead fish lol

    Well, based on what you've seen in this thread, this is not the place to hear positive things about 1.3
    Despite some negative reviews, and the creation of more balanced mods afterwards, it was quite popular a few years ago – search Youtube and you'll find thousands of LPs and other videos about 1.3 – the only other major mod that has a comparable level of Youtube exposure is Monster Tactics, a great mod, which technically gets more results in the search, although some of them are “monster runs” for 1.3 or other versions.  Or go on over to the ID board and you'll see a fair few threads that express the players' enjoyment of the mod, coupled with (in fairness) some disapproval, the nature of which you find here. 

    Anyways, again I'm not here to be 1.3's poster boy/target. I will do as Angel suggests.  I will work on my mod through multiple threads – I only ask that my project not be shunned or torpedoed on the basis of some similarities with the better aspects of 1.3.  I trust in your indulgence that such may be the case.  Thanks.
    Toshiko
    Angel (Empress) [Posts: 1229]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 06:03:48 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 06:03:48 AM »
    Unless we're notified otherwise (by absentee Arch), a mod based on 1.3 is still free to be shared here. It's not recommended, for a variety of reasons, but unless we're presented with a takedown request, you're free to post about it all you like here. I won't shoot it down unprovoked, and I'll ask that nobody else does, either.

    In regards to WotL assets, it's been largely agreed upon by those with an artistic eye that they are not up to par with the original. Official they may be, they are looked down upon. But hey, they're official.

    By all means, feel free to share your work here. The more it diverges from 1.3, the more relevant it becomes here, of course. Just be aware that in the (VERY) unlikely case that Arch decides to step in, we are obligated to comply with any requests.

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    Elric (Overseer) [Posts: 3820]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 06:03:59 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 06:03:59 AM »

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    Ansehelm [Posts: 36]
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    • [July 30, 2017, 06:36:33 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 06:36:33 AM »
    [platonic :cool:] Angel, you're a beautiful person.  Thank you for your moderation and encouragement. [/platonic  :cool:]

    That's fair.  I have thought about making my mod from the vanilla ISO; the main reason that I have chosen (so far) not to is that with regards to jobs/skills, I would really just be reinventing the wheel in terms of coming up with many generic jobs/abilities that are very similar to what we find currently in 1.3.  With regards to other aspects of the game, of course there are more drastic changes that would be made regardless of whether I modded vanilla or 1.3.  So that begs the question - when would my mod become not "based on 1.3?" If I took the 1.3 tactext file I made and change the names of a lot of the abilities and then apply to a vanilla ISO with my own patcher edits, is it uniquely my mod?  (This is almost functionally equivalent to "being inspired" by 1.3's abilities, which I clearly am to some extent, and against which, I think, there is no restriction.)  So I'd appreciate some insights regarding that, as well as the reasons for which you suggest I not make a 1.3 based patch.  Frankly, I'm on the fence right now.  On the one hand, I don't want to do more work than I have to, but on the other, I'd rather avoid whatever issues might come with being the pure genetic successor to 1.3 (regardless, I want my mod to be the functional successor of 1.3 in terms of having all of the good and little/none of the bad).

    Quote
    In regards to WotL assets, it's been largely agreed upon by those with an artistic eye that they are not up to par with the original. Official they may be, they are looked down upon. But hey, they're official.
    Fair.  Frankly I think Onion knight is close enough to perfect, but I agree that the death knight could be improved somewhat. Still, passable, and as you note, official.

    Quote
    By all means, feel free to share your work here. The more it diverges from 1.3, the more relevant it becomes here, of course.
    Naturally.  I suppose I walk somewhat of a fine line in terms of filling the niche of 1.3 (e.g. a souped up version that stays fairly true to the original) and making my own mod sufficiently different from 1.3, but I"ll do my best.

    @Elric: I have no doubt that there is much that we can learn in life from philosophical potatoes. I am not sure what lesson this particular spud has for me, but I am open to further enlightenment. 
    nitwit [Posts: 198]
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    • [July 31, 2017, 09:24:18 PM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 09:24:18 PM »
    tired: where is FFT 1.3
    wired: where is FFT pi
    inspired: we are in FFT
    May I kill him?
    Pride [Posts: 817]
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    • [August 01, 2017, 01:24:43 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 01:24:43 AM »
    I'm not sure what even sparked this post, all the threads with you started here were assisted with the same people you're talking about. Seems rather silly, we're a rather helpful bunch (to people that are actively trying to mod FFT).

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    Ansehelm [Posts: 36]
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    • [August 01, 2017, 02:28:05 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 02:28:05 AM »
    Quote
    I'm not sure what even sparked this post, all the threads with you started here were assisted with the same people you're talking about. Seems rather silly, we're a rather helpful bunch (to people that are actively trying to mod FFT).

    I've definitely come full circle and am back to not being bothered by it; although initially (as I mentioned) I just brought it up because I found the text-edit petulant and unexpected enough to be worth commenting on.  But sure, in even the medium-sized scheme of thing it's small potatoes, and no big deal.  I just like to avoid unnecessary drama and was concerned that my involvement with a project related with 1.3 might drag me into that.  Hope that answers your question; mine has been answered and I see that it's not a problem.  And of course, my posts were never meant to reflect badly on any of the members here, who are indeed very helpful, especially Xif and Emmy (who I notice frequents both boards).
    Carry on.
    Case closed.
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    dotchan [Posts: 17]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 03:36:04 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #12 on: August 06, 2017, 03:36:04 AM »
    Ok, here's my personal, non-political opinion of 1.3 from the point of view of a casual(-ish) longtime player of FFTactics:

    1.3 is not a well designed hack.  Sure, it does interesting things, but every one good idea is outweighed by any number of bad ones, to wit...

    • All battles needing one or more "scouting" sessions to suss out exactly what combination of Jobs, Abilities, and equipment are necessary to overcome the challenge - This turns the game from a flexible mix and match of different loadouts as well as a combination of anticipation, planning, and clever improvisation into a puzzle game whose solution can only be arrived at by reading the modder's mind.  And when every battle takes anywhere from five to fifteen minutes to simply try different things, this makes for an unfun experience.
    • One or more enemies in all story battles having Item as a secondary skill - Putting infinite sandbagging in the hands of the AI in every freaking battle was never a good idea to begin with.  A computer has the "patience" to put up with such shenanigans from a human player, but in reverse it is extraordinarily frustrating to deal with and just drags things out pointlessly.  Even worse, the AI gets exclusive elixers that they throw around without impunity as early as Chapter Three, and that's way too early for enemy AI to be carrying around that kind of stuff.
    • Scaling enemy equipment - In theory, this is supposed to be a hedge against a player simply brute forcing their way past the problem, but in practice, it makes it possible to accidentally end up in an unwinnable state in combination with the aforementioned sandbagging.  In a game where equipment gives more HP/MP than levels (on top of whatever other bonus goodies they have), giving the enemy gear that can be better than what is sold in store that, very often, can't be broken or stolen means that all players are forced into low-level runs, but with every battle dragging out much, much longer than they need to and experience being earned per action rather than per battle means that even the most efficient party can gain more levels than intended.
    • All Zodiac bosses are now HP sponges with Reaction abilities that are difficult, if not impossible, to mitigate or avoid - Queklain should NOT have 4-digit HP or "Critical: Quick" as a reaction ability (especially not in a game where permanent Brave/Faith manipulation is no longer possible), and each Zodiac boss only gets worse from there.

    ...and this isn't even getting to the modder's ego issues that make me even less inclined to support their work.
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 02:53:23 PM by dotchan »
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4235]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 05:51:30 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #13 on: August 06, 2017, 05:51:30 AM »
    Completely agreed.

    And that is the very definition of poor design.

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    nitwit [Posts: 198]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 09:19:05 AM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #14 on: August 06, 2017, 09:19:05 AM »
    ...and this isn't even getting to the modder's ego issues that make me even less inclined to support their work.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law

    "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." By way of corollary, it adds: "That is why academic politics are so bitter."

    Maybe I'm getting old but I can't care about internet slap fights anymore.

    Semi-related: The best way to prevent infighting is to periodically troll your users.  It relieves tension and sets things in perspective.

    For the 1.3/Voldemort issue, I would first back everything up.  Then I would create a board hidden even from moderators, and get ready to move a lot of boards there, and I would create and stage an new board there.  I'd make a new account named you-know-who and give it administrative privileges, and then when the moment is right "ban" the accounts of all the admins and move all their contributions to the hidden board.  I would move the previously staged Voldemort adulation board out of the hidden board.  Then I would make a post in News where I type a bunch of tl;dr about drama and modding, and how anyone who has previously disagreed with me will see all their contributions deleted forever.

    And then I would wait for the other admins, mods, and users to wake up and log into FFH.  Let it play out over a few days, try to wrangle Voldemort himself into it, and let the butthurt flow freely.  Then, after the drama is starting to down I'd move the hidden stuff back to their previous locations, make a post telling the truth, and unban everyone.

    This is me, harvesting salt:
    http://i.imgur.com/rbPzyjT.jpg
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 10:07:20 AM by nitwit »
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    RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3022]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 04:59:31 PM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #15 on: August 06, 2017, 04:59:31 PM »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law

    "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." By way of corollary, it adds: "That is why academic politics are so bitter."

    Maybe I'm getting old but I can't care about internet slap fights anymore.

    Semi-related: The best way to prevent infighting is to periodically troll your users.  It relieves tension and sets things in perspective.

    For the 1.3/Voldemort issue, I would first back everything up.  Then I would create a board hidden even from moderators, and get ready to move a lot of boards there, and I would create and stage an new board there.  I'd make a new account named you-know-who and give it administrative privileges, and then when the moment is right "ban" the accounts of all the admins and move all their contributions to the hidden board.  I would move the previously staged Voldemort adulation board out of the hidden board.  Then I would make a post in News where I type a bunch of tl;dr about drama and modding, and how anyone who has previously disagreed with me will see all their contributions deleted forever.

    And then I would wait for the other admins, mods, and users to wake up and log into FFH.  Let it play out over a few days, try to wrangle Voldemort himself into it, and let the butthurt flow freely.  Then, after the drama is starting to down I'd move the hidden stuff back to their previous locations, make a post telling the truth, and unban everyone.

    This is me, harvesting salt:
    http://i.imgur.com/rbPzyjT.jpg

    nitwit [Posts: 198]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 05:29:53 PM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 05:29:53 PM »
    I see you your pony, and I will raise you a smoli.

    nyzer [Posts: 656]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 06:09:04 PM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2017, 06:09:04 PM »
    That's... not at all a good prank idea. For a humorous prank, you want something memorable that's going to get laughter from everyone involved. Leaving multiple people frustrated for multiple days and involving someone with whom there's mutual desire not to be involved with only to go "it's just a prank bro rofl" isn't funny, it's just you being an asshole. You'd have the exact opposite reaction of "relieving tension".

    Even if you'd argue that you'd find it funny to be on the butt end of that "joke", not everyone would. (I'd expect that most people wouldn't.) And involving people in a "prank" that they're not going to find funny is, again, just you being an asshole.
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 06:25:39 PM by nyzer »
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  • nitwit [Posts: 198]
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    • [August 06, 2017, 07:47:45 PM]
    Re: Can we skip the politics with 1.3 already?
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2017, 07:47:45 PM »
    That's the point, the world is full of assholes.  If someone loses their mind over at best a miscommunication (or at worse someone else being an asshole) then you don't want that person in your community.  You need a mechanism to weed out thin-skinned types because otherwise everyone spends their time sniping at each other and backstabbing, and no time doing whatever it is your community is intended to do.

    You can curate high-quality content by setting the bar high and then bullying everyone who can't hack it (not a good idea in skill-based communities like hacking, newbies become seasoned by making mistakes) and then banning those who get bitter, or you can do it indirectly by trolling your users.  The shared experience of a prank build camaraderie and helps to overcome miscommunication and social growing pains that are inherent to internet communities.

    I was involved with one forum that had guys who were legit shut-in NEETs, some that were high-functioning autistes.  They did a lot of great work but they alienated everyone until the old admins quit and a talented content producer who was a huge troll took their place.  He trolled them so much that they stuck to technical work and spent less time on the forums.  Last I heard one actually got a job and a girlfriend!

    EDIT

    You have two options for community management, a modeling agency or a boot camp.

    1. Modeling agency selects for people who are already talented.

    2. A boot camp forces people to improve what talent they have.

    Obviously you want something that's a bit of a mix, but given the nature of ROM hacking we are mostly number two.  Probably the best strategy is to game-ify the community experience.  Hand out badges for finishing mods, play-testing other people's mods, hacking, maintaining the wiki, programming applications, providing useful feedback, and so on.  Even just downloading someone's mod and playing it through to the end should get a minor badge.
    « Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:18:27 PM by nitwit »
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