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Updating for 134 - shove everything here

Started by FFMaster, October 25, 2011, 07:31:47 pm

FFMaster

October 25, 2011, 07:31:47 pm Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 07:37:27 pm by FFMaster
Since I haven't been able to watch any matches for a while, that puts me completely out for having the final say for balance. Instead, I think the best method is for everyone to input what needs to be changed and work from there.

My only input would be to add a faith constant to both caster and target(s). The problem has been around since forever. The alternative would have team faith minimum. It's up in the air.

EDIT: I'm leaving this open until 8/11, which is when my exams are done, or 2 weeks.

EDIT2: Base version will be Raven's latest one.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Malroth

Remove Initial haste from heretics ring, its powerful enough with just Innocent.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 26, 2011, 02:31:30 am #2 Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:19:31 am by RavenOfRazgriz
(One note: I have at least one more Arena fix to release since FDC finished his proper Oil fix and I have a few more errors I found that need fixing, so make sure you've got the absolute newest version when this thread's done, because it'll probably be at least something crazy like 1.3391 or some shit.)

Faith Constant > Team Faith Floor or Raising Floor Faith per Unit.  Faith Constant keeps the rules streamlined, and keeps the math streamlined between physical and magical, making balance easier.  Though, this means that Flame Rod, Thunder Rod, Ice Rod, White Staff definitely need to be dropped to 50% proc if this is done.  They're already pretty damn strong using the old Faith system since you're getting free Spells at 125% output, and a Faith Constant/etc will only raise their already rapetastically high damage.  Katon/Raiton/Suiton being Un-Faith and having skills/skillsets like Draw Out and Geomancy that are immune to both Brave and Faith may no longer be necessary once the Faith constant is set in, but that stuff can wait for a 1.35 I suppose.  I assume 1.34 will hopefully see MA be normalized against PA properly if the Faith constant is added, though, which'll help fix quite a few problems by itself.  (This includes the Rod/Staff one I mentioned previously, but reducing them to 50% still seems very prudent.)

The other thing to remember is that with a proper Faith floor, you may not want Flare capping out at 70v70 500+ damage anymore... weaker skills become far better since their 70v40 "expected" damage jumps up SIGNIFICANTLY.

Gonna compile a far-shortened and better organized version of a bunch of stuff either FDC or I mentioned in the Stats/Abilities thread and the Items thread since we both generally agree with everything the other said and one well-organized post is simpler than two.  He'll probably supplement on whatever I miss.  I'll keep my explanations here sparse since they're already presented by at least one of us in the aforementioned threads.  I'll organize suggestions by Job Class or Gear Type for simplicity.

MECHANICAL CHANGES:

Only two suggestions, so no Spoiler tags.  Reaction Rate really should be Brave+Faith/2, so that you're not encouraged to just go 70/40 on your melee units, and so that your Wizards and co aren't on the short end of the stick when they try to do the same by going 40/70.  It'd still allow you to customize how often your Reactions go off, unlike a flat rate, but getting a 70% rate would require 70/70.  The other idea is to have the rate be Br+Fa-40.  This way 40/40 results in 40% still, 70/40 or 40/70 results in 70%, and 70/70 (the ultimate risk, arguably) results in 100%.

Either is fine by me... but honestly, kinda leaning toward the latter because I like the wider range of customization options.  It just needs to be tied to both statistics, though.

Secondly, Reflect (Status) should have its CT set to 0, and all sources set to Initial: Reflect (Reflect Mail, Ryozan Silk currently, plus suggesting reinstating of Reflect Ring), so that it fades on death, similar to Berserk.  Contrary to popular belief, Reflect is actually pretty strong.

Also, I'll keep mentioning it till it happens - please add things like Absorb ignoring Weak/Half. into the Mechanical Changes in the Master Guide.  I have literally not run into a single person besides myself and maybe FDC who knew about these kinds of changes so far because the only place you can find them is in cobweb-filled sections of Arena's changelogs and not anywhere someone would actually give a shit to look.

JOBS:


Accumulate - 0 CT.
Throw Stone - Add Cancel: Performing
Ultima - change to Range 5, 25 MP, 5 CT



-1 MA, goes with Mediator changes to ensure Chemists don't also steal all of Mediator's niches.



Nurse - Increase Range from 0 to 2.
Dia - Move to Priest skillset.  Replace with the following skill:
Bless - Heal MA*4 MP + 100% Add: Reraise, Range 2, Vertical 2, 0 MP, 0 CT, 200 JP.  Modify Formula 54 to turn NS into a 2D-style infliction to make this skill.
Transfusion - Make skill Allies Only, reduce JP cost to 200.
Equip Armor - Reduce JP cost to 400 to make it equivalent to Unyielding, Defense UP, etc.
Equip Heavy Blade - Reduce JP cost to 300, its nowhere near on the level of other 400 JP Supports.
Add Monkeygrip here, at 300 JP cost.  Pokeytax finished it, it can be written over Monster Talk, and this is the best class to house it since it uses Knight Swords innately.

Related note - many of Paladin's MP costs should be reduced, or its baseMP should be raised.  Obviously the idea is to limit the use of skills without MP-gear... but even with these buffs and cost reductions, their skills aren't so powerful that they require that, and the class itself is no-longer an uber-physical carrier class.  I would go the route of lowering MP costs, because that makes Chivalry a more attractive secondary - and let's be honest, right now, outside of a few select setups, secondary Chivalry is a joke.



Greased Bolt - PA+255% to-hit, 100 JP.  Current version is worthless.



Stigma Magic - remove Cancel: Berserk.
I still think Martial Arts should be 250 JP.  It's not hurting a lot right now, though.



Reraise - remove, replace with the current Paladin's Dia.
Regen - Either needs to be normalized like Protect/Shell or Protect2/Shell2.  The current implementation sucks.
Esuna - Remove Cancel: Berserk.


Tl;dr of my other thread's suggestion (Not compensated for a Faith Constant):

Fire: Y=14, MP=6
Fire 2: Y=17, MP=12
Fire 3: Y=21, MP=21
Fire 4: Y=29, MP=30, Vertical 2

Bolt: Y=19, MP=12
Bolt 2: Y=23, MP=18
Bolt 3: Y=27, MP=30
Bolt 4: Y=35, MP=40

Ice: Y=16, MP=3
Ice 2: Y=20, MP=6
Ice 3: Y=24, MP=12
Ice 4: Y=32, MP=20

Across-the-board JP costs of 50/120/180/260 for 1/2/3/4.

Poison - Reduce JP to 50.
Frog - Y=160
Death - Y=200
Teleport - 300 JP



Stop - Y=160, 22 MP, 4 CT
Reflect - rename to "Sinkhole" so name is more sensible to effect, add Cancel: Performing
Short Charge - Reduce JP Cost to 400
Float (Movement) - Reduce JP Cost to 100


Quick look, the MP costs seem a tad high when you consider most Summons are smart-targeted Fire 3s.  Lich looks especially overpriced.  Considering they're all smart-targeted, having elemental trios like Shiva/Ifrit/Ramuh mirror each other also seems like wasted potential.  I would recommend trying to give different Summons more distinct AoEs, like what FFT: ASM'd intended to do.

Carbuncle - Heal MA*6 MP in a Summon-sized AoE, with an MP cost and a small CT.  Suggest replacing this because Transparent bugs the AI.
MP Restore - Reduce JP to 400.
Half of MP - Reduce JP to 200.


I recommend moving either Awareness or Caution to a different class.  Caution is generally always superior and costs the same JP.  They both make good "filler" Reactions, but both in the same place is a waste.  Move one of them to Squire to spread the love, personally.  I also question whether innate Flee is actually a buff or a decrement, all things considered.

Quickening - 0 CT.
Equip Light Blade - Does anyone /ever/ use this?  I don't think I've ever seen it used except for one or two really rare exceptions.  It could probably go for being dropped to 150 JP to match Equip Clothes unless I'm somehow very mistaken.



Oh boy.  Firstly, stats.  I remember people constantly bitching how Mediator sucked (idk how?), but you've somehow let it accrue... the highest non-Monk base HP, 9 SPD, 4 Move, essentially maximum MA, and even somewhat passable PA and decent MP.  Basically, through a series of buffs that (imo) might've been brought around by people not knowing what to do with their Mediators... they're huge sacks of HP and raw damage with tons of SPD and range to back it up, and they get Daggers to buff both their range and damage simultaneously, and their huge base HP allows them to easily wear their Hats/Clothes to minmax damage with at a fairly low risk compared to most other classes.  I assume everyone before was so focused on "OMG CHEMIST R BETTAR WIT TALK SKILL" that they never decided to try having their Mediator fill a different role, and this was the end result.  Yeah no.  These fuckers need to lose 2 MA.  You can't have a class that powerful, that mobile, and that durable, just because people are too busy using it defensively to not realize its ridiculous when the MA is actually put to use.  The Move point still gives it an advantage over Chemist innately for those who care about that.  Though, IT SHOULD GET ITS GODDAMN ROBES BACK. Just, this class cannot be allowed to stay how it is stat-wise.  See: Wiz's Mediators and those of a similar vein.  Draw Out looks like the problem at first glance... but its only when you can give it to things like Mediators that can minmax for everything and lose very little coming out of it that its a problem.  No other Draw Out user is even remotely a problem right now, and making all Draw Out users suffer because of one class is /retarded beyond retarded/.

Note:  The other half of the Draw Out problem is the non-normalized MA scores that result from no-Constant Faiths.  Once MA is set to be in proper parity with PA, that should also fix Draw Out issues... but that doesn't change the fact that Mediator shouldn't be essentially the best at everything caster-wise because people were too busy using it defensively.

Tl;dr: Mediator - -2 MA, +Robes.

Persuade - buff hit rate by 10-20%, make AoE.
Praise/Threaten - Remove.
Preach - Add: Faith.  MA*2+45%
Solution - Add: Innocent.  MA*2+45%
Insult - Remove.  This way you can remove Cancel: Berserk from Esuna/Stigma Magic/etc safely.  With MA*Y Rods/etc, this is rarely a bad status to add to an opponent anyway.
Monster Talk - Remove.  Pokeytax just finished Monkeygrip not long ago and it defaults to using this Support, so just write it to here.


Another tl;dr of my suggestion in a previous thread, that again does not compensate for a Faith constant:

Blind - Y=255
Spell Absorb - Y=255
Life Drain - Y=190
Zombie - Y=200
Silence Song - Y=170
Blind Rage - Y=160
Petrify - Y=170
Beguile - Y=150
Paralyze - Y=170
Sleep - Y=160
Dispel - Y=210

Though, again, I would remove Blind Rage for the same reason I would remove Insult.  Neither see much if any use, and again, they're essentially buff spells the AI will use on its enemies now.

Move-MP UP - Increase MP gain to 10% again, leave JP cost at 500.  Right now, its shitty but required for every mage ever, and any non-mage that MIGHT want to use it (like Paladin) can't because 5% MaxMP is worthless, and the debuff itself honestly is unnecessary.  If something like Flare spam was a problem... the problem was probably Flare itself.  Again, don't punish the many for the crimes of the few.



The constant could be increased to 3, especially if you do Faith Constant -> MA renormalization, since otherwise, the Geomancy damage is going to drop, and right now, the essentially 0-constant means you really do get next to nothing unless you're power-optimized.



If Lancer is to use its primary competently, its SPD needs to be reduced to 8.

Level Jump 3 - 200 JP
Level Jump 4 - 300 JP
Level Jump 5 - 400 JP
Level Jump 6 - 500 JP (use the old Level Jump 8 slot for this)

I'd also reduce all the Vertical Jump JP costs by 50 as well.

Equip Spear should include Cloths.



Innate Two Hands with Attack UP and Salty Rage is about as dumb as I said it would be before you did it, but it's not unbearable or unbeatable.  The problem seems to mostly be in the Katanas, I think.  Draw Out is also fine, if you read my block of text in my Mediator section.  Just one thing.

Kotetsu - needs to lose Add: Blind.  The 3 AoE should be fine once you re-normalize MA since overall MA will probably drop at least by 2 on even the best damagers, and the wide AoE for middling damage isn't OP.  The Blind part is kind of OP, because Blind is now REALLY REALLY GOOD.



No changes



Tornado and Quake aren't worth their MP costs, given how easily both are blocked, which is especially odd given how rare these two elements actually are.  Bio and Bio 2 could probably lose their Dark typing.  Bio 3 as Dark helps Undead teams, but its purely a decrement when used on the other two.

Damage Split - buff to 33%, same JP cost.
Equip Magegear should include Harps.



JP costs for Songs and Dances should be increased to 200, personally.
Cheer Song - Hit Rate = 33%.
Polka Polka, Disillusion - Hit Rate = 40%.
PA Save, MA Save - Reduce JP cost to 400.
Brave UP, Faith UP - Reduce JP cost to 200.



No changes, though could possibly gain a Frog immunity.


GEAR:

(I won't be listing gear I think is fine as-is for the sake of brevity.)

Before beginning, I again say you should utilize Pride's ASM for an MP-Regen status set to 1/8th MP, written over the top Status slot, and use it as an Always: innate for some pieces of gear.  It'd let you introduce some new items here and there using empty slots.  I suggest this because it would stop people from being so heavily reliant on Move-MP UP to get MP, allowing mages to branch out some more and try setups they couldn't before because their Move slot and a fourth of their JP was essentially /always/ tied to Move-MP UP, even in its shitty 5% form.  I highly recommend at least one mage-weapon and one accessory giving this "Refresh" status for this reason.

.Chaos Blade - Regain 20% Evasion, gain Cancel: Reraise.  Current version really isn't usable compared to other weapons.

Axes kinda suck
Battle Axe - 10 WP
Giant's Axe - 11 WP
Slasher - 13 WP

To fix the few problems caused by the Berserk Attack UP Samurai without hurting anyone else very much:
Bizen Boat - 9 WP
Murasame - 11 WP, heal on hit.

Allows male Samurai to play decent healers and forces Berserkers to choose damage or Silence, but not both.

Thunder Rod, Flame Rod, Ice Rod, White Staff - just again mentioning their procs should probably go to 50% once the Faith Constant is adapted since their procs' bottom-damage will be raised quite a bit.

Scorpion Tail - either reduce WP to 11, or increase WP to 14 and unflag Two Swords.  Current version is muy OP.

Blaze Gun - 17 WP
Glacier Gun - 15 WP
Blast Gun - 14 WP

Range on all boosted to 6.  This should compensate for the loss of power on Fire/Ice Spells.

Papyrus Plate - 9 WP, 25% Flare
Madlemgen - 11 WP, 25% Add: Stop
Battle Dict - 13 WP, 25% Add: Undead
Monster Dict - 15 WP, 25% "Reflect"/Sinkhole.


Javelin - +2 SPD.
Holy Lance, Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan - +1 SPD and current effects.
Dragon Whisker and Obelisk - +0 SPD and current effects.

^ If Lancer's SPD is dropped to 8, doing this will allow all current Lancer roles to still be filled and allow Jumpers to function correctly.  It'll also give Equip Polearm far more attractiveness when not combined with Jump, something it pretty sorely needs.

H Bag - lose the Initial: Slow.  Item is worthless currently.  Right now you have weapons that give SP to the classes that want it most, with Transparent, a better damage formula, and more WP.  A 5 WP Bag that does nothing but Speed +1 is not a problem, at all.

Ryozan Silk - Initial: Reflect + proposed change to Reflect Status above.



Flash Hat - mostly useless, except on Draw Out spam Mediators.  The HP and MP gains are both far too low to use on much else since the 1 SPD only goes so far in AI-battles.  Since Heretic's Ring is gone, make this give Initial Innocent instead, and buff its HP and MP by a decent bit.  This would help Ninjas make better use of their primary skillset, too, which they have a bit of a hard time doing with their low base PA.  It'd also give people a hard-out if the new Faith system isn't properly calibrated the first time through and magic damage is too high, which is possible considering how much the floor damage goes up.

Cachusha - can be used with certain setups to make every element irrelevant.  For someone who wanted the old H Bag gone for making element teams worthless (which it wasn't really doing, I thought it was sub-par in the long run even when I used it since I noticed my main threats were non-element anyway), allowing things like this seems really questionable.  Dunno what to replace it with though.

Reflect Mail - Initial: Reflect + proposed change to Reflect Status above.



Germinas Boots - +1 Move, +2 Jump.
Rubber Shoes - +1 Move, Cancel: Lightning, Don't Act.
Feather Boots - Initial Haste, Always: Float, Move +1.
Sprint Shoes - +1 SPD, Cancel: Don't Move.

Heretic's Ring - is a dumb idea, its SPD+2 and doubles Ninjitsu power, essentially, when Ninjitsu has a 28 constant, insane range, is completely unevadable, and comes in an element spread that's mostly impossible to fully resist.  Reflect Ring should be reintroduced in its place. Initial: Reflect, +1 MA, Cancel: Silence.  It'd make a nice piece of anti-mage gear for mages, help fix the damage curve, and adds more anti-Silence.  (Obviously, this goes with the Reflect proposal earlier.)  It'd also fill the same defensive role as Heretic's Ring.

Cherche - Always: Protect.
Setiemson - Always: Shell.


STATUSES:

Haste - CT to 48
Think that summarizes everything from every post FDC and I made in those two threads + some stuff we forgot.

formerdeathcorps

October 26, 2011, 03:42:26 am #3 Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:57:10 am by formerdeathcorps
I disagree on four points.
A) We should keep insult.  It's not very usable, but it's still usable against more than just mages (but less than Don't Act).
B) Dispel Magic should go to mediator as a Talk Skill formula.
C) Lancers are fine at initial 9 SPD, except for jumping.  Lancers would be only good for jumping at 8 SPD, though.  They'd be inferior to Paladin in every way except that their skillset is the best jumping skillset (while with RAven's edits, Chivalry > Jump).  Even if you can optimize the effectiveness of jump, it's still a technique that would be used once every few turns.
D) The existing system is fine if we had a faith floor.  Since I don't like the fury system to begin with, I don't see the need to turn faith into a mirror copy of fury.  I even more strongly object to the idea of subordinating every kind of damage/healing/status infliction rate to Fury or Faith.

Cachusha would be fine if it simply did nothing but grant 80 HP/80 MP.  As a monk-only item, it helps monks that use cover fire/ninjitsu/grand cross very well.

In general, several things are true.
1) Elemental attacks are too easily absorbed/nulled.  No unit, even if he tries, should be able to absorb/null more than 4 elements (right now, it's 7 or 8).
2) Fire/Ice/Lightning attacks are well represented and dangerous.  Water attacks in the form of whale whisker and suiton actually hurt.  Earth attacks in the form of kiku/earth slash are quite dangerous as well.  The remaining three elements, however, run into issues.
a) Holy element really has two attacks.  Holy and Grand Cross + Excalibur (which is actually inferior to Grand Cross + Ice Brand or Kikuichimoji).
b) Wind element really has no attacks.  Heaven's Cloud doesn't do damage (it's outclassed in range by kiku/koutetsu, status by Muramasa, and damage by Chiri), Silf doesn't do damage, and geomancy is hardly a given.  The wind elemental weapons (9 WP katana, a knife, and a ninjato) are mostly jokes.
c) Dark element really only has % HP attacks.  However, Bio was loved because it was non-elemental.  It actually becomes weaker if it can be absorbed, though coherence requirements suggest Bio3 should be darkness elemental.

Hence, we need more Wind and Dark elemental skills.  Holy could use an AoE spell.


Moogle (Same)
Fairy (Same)
Zodiac (Same)
Bahamut (Same)
Carbuncle (See RAven's suggestions)
Cyclops (Same MP/CT--Holy damage with 25% Blind or Silence)
Silf (Same MP/CT--Wind damage with 25% Don't Move or Don't Act)
Odin (Same MP/CT--Dark damage [not % of HP] with 25% Death Sentence)
Titan (Same)
Leviathan (Same)


This way, summoner only gets the elements black mage does not.

Since I essentially ate up tornado's slot,


Rime Bolt (Same)
Earth Dragon (Same)
Thunder Flare (Same)
Shadow Shade (Same)
Mad Science (Needs to cost 150 JP, at least)
Bio (Non-elemental)
Bio2 (Non-elemental)
Bio3 (Same)
Tornado (Lich's current effect, Wind Elemental)


This should make scholar a bit more compact and useful a skillset.

Speaking of elemental variance, ninja needs a skillset that's easier to use on ninja than monk.  I personally suggest swapping the MP growth of ninja with that of monk.


Tsumazuku (Remove Re-Raise instead)
Shuriken (Same)
Kaiton (Change to wind elemental ball)
Raiton (Change to dark elemental ball)
Suiton (Same)
Hokouton (Same)
Kagesougi (No one uses this...can it 25% add what bad luck does instead and scrap Doku no Kyoukai and Bad Luck?)
Doku no Kyoukai (Delete this and transfer HAwkeye from Snipe to here, but without the CT.  This way, both a PA or SP setup ninja/thief can do reasonable damage, but at MP cost)


Doing this obviously means that flails now need to be wind/dark/water elemental rather than fire/lightning/water.

And cluttered skillsets brings us to Thief and Archer.


Heretic (Delete.  Only useful against charging mages, and really only exploitable by teams with ninjitsu.)
Spellbreaker (Change to what Tsumazuku currently is...cancel: haste, deal 50% of HP only if haste can be removed, at Fa% * (MA + 255)%...if you're feeling particularly awful, it could cancel charm or slow instead [so it functions off synergy with the thief skillset]; obviously, this should cost MP)
Bad Luck (Reworked...now on Ninja)
Everything else can stay, though am I a heretic for suggesting charm should have a MP cost?



Aims (Keep)
Seal Evil (Situational, but keep)
Greased Bolt (Keep, now that oil does something, but because oil amplifies fire by 2x, it may not be wise to change this, especially since the AI spams oil)
Execute (Delete)
Breaks (Keep)
Cover Fire (The formula as listed is not what the ASM suggests, and if it is, it's probably OP.  If I'm not mistaken, the ASM suggest the formula is RN(1...3) * (PA + (PA + 60) / 2), where the PA not being divided by 2 is what's multiplied by Martial ARts and Attack Up)
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 26, 2011, 04:08:04 am #4 Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:15:09 am by RavenOfRazgriz
Easy (if a bit lazy) Lancer solution:

Base SPD is 8.

Dragon Whisker and Obelisk give +0 SPD and their current bonuses.
Other Spears (Holy Lance, Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan) give +1 SPD
Javelin gives +2 SPD.

Jumpers will only ever use Dragon Whisker or Obelisk, because the rest are better for attacking.  This way you still get 9-10 SPD on non-Jumping Paladins, but Jumpers can still get the 8 they need.  I know there's more unused Spear slots, so an effectless Spear with +1 SPD could also be added if someone wants a Dragon Whisker analogue for 9 SPD.

Heaven's Cloud really does need a buff of some kind.  Ninjatos in general outside of Hidden Knife and maybe 1-2 others need more WP.  Right now their WP barely surpasses Daggers and Daggers generally have better effects.  They need more DPS overall if they want to compete since most things that can use one can use both.

Can't agree with giving Dispel Magic to Mediator.  Let Oracle keep it, and give Mediator 1.3's two-sided version that's essentially Dispel+Esuna.  Mediators have tons going for them compared to Oracles, they shouldn't take more of Oracle's stuff than necessary, especially since the main purpose of this change is the OCD-need to have it properly cancel Innocent and not one of balance.  As for Insult / Blind Rage, the other reason is that anti-Berserk really needs to come off Stigma Magic / Esuna or else Berserk-users are basically pidgeonholed in terms of status healing.  Leaving Insult and Blind Rage would mean that Berserk is a non-curable debuff that backfires half of the time... and again, if you actually look at all the teams, I can only think of one team that's ever actually used Insult because it's not worth using, especially since you can get Don't Act in the exact same skillset and not risk it backfiring.  I can't think of a single reason I would ever, ever willingly buy Insult over any of the other usable Talk Skills, myself.  Its good for baiting like Pokemon's Taunt, but since its AI Battles, the chances of backfiring are just far too great for me.

formerdeathcorps

October 26, 2011, 04:55:42 am #5 Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 03:25:04 pm by formerdeathcorps
If we're missing on variety of supports, we can also restore Concentrate as a buyable support.  In this patch (where evasions are generally fairly low), Concentrate < Attack Up.

EDIT: If we allow monkeygrip, we might be forced to, actually.  Defender + Escutcheon II + Mantle + Abandon yields a crazy amount of P/M-EV.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 26, 2011, 04:55:42 am
If we're missing on varieties of supports, we can also restore concentrate as a buyable support.  In this patch (where evasions are generally fairly low), concentrate < Attack Up.


This is true too.  It gives Abandonwhores a counter, but general evasion isn't usually above 35%, so Attack UP will have more consistent yields.  On thought, it should come back.  More options aren't particularly bad in an Arena-oriented game.

400 JP, buyable on... Squire?  Thief has Move +1 and Ninja has both Two Swords and Overwhelm for "Good" R/S/M, so putting it on one of those is just too centralizing.  Archer could work, but it has Speed Save for a "Good" R/S/M.  Squire in comparison, even with my suggestion of moving one of Caution/Awareness to it, really doesn't have a "Good" Support or Reaction, so it's a perfect fit.  Monk is an alternative, but again, it has HP Restore as a "Good" R/S/M and the "Good" things should really be spread out a bit when possible.

Dol

1)  Scorpion Tail feels too strong.  Raven's solutions seem fine.

2)  Platina Dagger's proc feels too high.  25% would be more in line for how much damage it can really do.

3)  The Koutetsu Draw Out feels a bit much right now.  3 AoE + decent damage/healing + blind.  Maybe scale it back down to 2 AoE?

4)  Hidden Knife gives innate concentrate without using up the support slot.  Does it really need +1 speed too?

Something just came up that I need to work on, so I'll finish this later.


doriantoki

October 26, 2011, 07:39:59 pm #8 Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:04:13 pm by doriantoki
QuoteI even more strongly object to the idea of subordinating every kind of damage/healing/status infliction rate to Fury or Faith.


Agreed.  The effects of Fury and Faith should be kept separate.  I kind of like the idea that both combined affect reaction skill proc rate, though.

This isn't really a problem per se, but when there is a crazy amount of back and forth due to healing, it's kind of annoying.  IMO, the more options to shut down the enemy's defense, the smoother and faster a match will run.  While berserk may not be more desirable than say don't act, I do still feel it serves a purpose.  As you mentioned, you bait the enemy, instead of running away.  Also, the AI will be pretty dumb, in certain circumstances.  It wasn't uncommon for even this tournament for an archer or a chemist to shoot at a wall.  There are other benefits as well.  It lasts longer.  With don't act, the worst that happens mostly, is the enemy runs away, and it wears off very quickly.  So with berserk, you can at least bait, with a long infliction time (well, until healed or dead more or less).  It's obviously better suited in the hands of a human player, but, as I mentioned, the more options to shut down annoying heal spam, the better, IMO.  Another under utilized skill was Zombie, in this same note.  So many teams relied on healing and items, and zombie effective kills  both of those, as well as ressurection.  It was under utilized.

I agree that Reflect is powerful, it's been under utilized in the current tournament.  If you look at the most dangerous spells, most of them are reflectable.  I had equip armor on my oracles in the vampire hunters team, and they were essentially protected against negative status ailments (magical) and all the dangerous spells that it seems 90% of the board employed (flare, and holy, and so on).  To be honest, part of me likes that.  It's nice to have an option to shut down most team's "go-to" attack spells, and promotes diversity and strategy.  As long as Reflect Mail is kept unchanged, I am fine with that.

Re: scorpion tail, I agree that the WP should be lowered.  However, keeping with the spirit of the original game, add a small random damage calculation to the equation.  I would recommend something like 10%.  So a scorpion tail at 11 WP with a wielder of 10 PA, for example, would do between 99 and 121 damage, 110 being the base.  The problem I get with the original formulas were that they sucked, and the lowest damage was more common.  Here, you keep the potential for one of the strongest weapons, and ofset that a bit with a small random damage calculation.  I mean, it's already got 50% poison proc, on top of the strongest flail WP, too.  I feel this would balance it out a bit more.

Maximizing damage, let's say at 11 WP with 14 PA and Attack Up, it would hit between 184 and 224.  I would even take it possibly to 10 WP, using this calculation, but that's just me.  Two handed, it still has the potential to two shot more or less all units, even at minimum damage.

RavenOfRazgriz

A few things.

1) It basically sounds like you just said "I have ADHD and hate games that aren't hyperaggro and decided instantly."  If we obeyed that, we'd be the next YGO, and the metagame would be terrible.  Back and forth healing is what puts pressure on you to build more than just an aggro force and actually do something well thought-out if you want to win through power.  Also, I find it far more boring to watch videos where the winner is decided in a couple of minutes, which is basically the case here.

2) Your whole point falls to one thing - no one, save one person on a team that I'm pretty sure dates back to before 1.30, even runs Insult.  Do you know why FDC's proposal to drop a number of Summons isn't a big deal even if entirely unnecessary?  No one uses most of them.  You know why his dropping of Quake and huge change to Tornado are fine even if the former is again not particularly necessary?  No one uses them.  Know why it's okay he wants to maul up Bad Luck, Kagesougi, and delete Heretic and Execute despite the deletions serving no actual purpose?  No one uses any of them.  You know what else no one uses? Insult.  You're literally pulling arguments from anywhere you can think of to support a skill going completely unused, which even in FDC's own cases is enough for him to delete a myriad of skills.  Them's the facts - No. One.  Uses.  It.  The other skills are just better.  Even in the sense of cutting off healers - healers aren't always squishy units that don't do a lot of damage in Arena, may people run their healing on units like Lancers and Paladins that don't die, and Berserking those can end very, very badly, on top of again Berserking a unit with a fairly moderate MA-based weapon... like a Bard.  I'm sorry, all the facts make you lose.  It's not worth it, and very obviously not worth it, as I'm pretty damn sure more people run THREATEN than Insult.[/i]  The other Berserk skill, Blind Rage, is on the exact same class Zombie is on anyway, so you don't even lose anything removing it there.

3) The only thing that'd "change" on Reflect Mail with what I said is the fact those Oracles would lose Reflect on death... which if you're shutting down a huge chunk of their offense, probably shouldn't even happen.

And FDC, the Fury system gives better Min-Maxes than the current Faith system does.  Currently:

Say we have a unit that can run Flare and 25 MA after Magic Attack UP, etc.  We want Flare to do... 500ish 70v70 damage.  That should kill just about anything without a piece of damage reduction in place.  You need a Y of 40 for that, and it'll do 490.  At 40v40, it'll do 160, and at 70v40, it'll do 280.  Your expected damage is just 40 points over half what you want the target damage to be.  This is what makes magic so erratic in hit rate and output, and what makes running 40 Faith so strong - you essentially half the power of damaging mages, forcing them to have obscenely high Y values and send each other into oneshot fests or run around with Faith Rods.  Now, to get the same-ish 70v70 damage with Faith+35, you use a Y 18.  This results in 496 damage, essentially the same end-mark.  40v40 is now 253, and 70v40 is now 354.  The difference is that running 40 Faith is only good for reducing damage by some more than a quarter, instead of just under a half.  Hell, in this situation - the new 40v40 is the old 70v40.  This puts a lot of control on mage damage.  It works on hit-rates too.  Let's say you want a skill that always hits on 70v70 regardless of MA, as long as there is no evasion.  MA*2+200 base works out well for this.  We'll assume the most awful of awful Lancers is using it too, so the final value is 206, which results in exactly 100% on 70v70.  On 40v40, this is 32%, and on 70v40 this is 57%.  ...Again, nearly a 50% difference between the first two values.  With Faith+35... your formula becomes MA*2+85 (final value 91) for exactly 100% on 6 MA and 70v70.  40v40 becomes 51% and 70v40 becomes 71%, meaning the difference in yields on hit rate that's directly comparable to the yields on damage, so the math holds true for all.  This actually makes magic consistent, and is just downright better than the vanilla Faith system, whether you "like" it or not.  The facts show this pretty clearly... so I must say you entire hatred of Fury is unfounded in terms of mathematics.  If it's doing something like "raising damage too high"... then someone didn't design around their modifier correctly.  That's all there is to it, and it's the fault of the patch maker, not the mechanic, because the mechanic quite clearly won't bloat anything you don't allow it to bloat by refusing to open WinCalc.exe.

This is the exact same thing I had to explain to FFMaster when he thought he'd end up with even larger damage variances by switching to a Fury-like Faith system than keeping the current one.  He forgot the fact that he would be dealing with much smaller base numbers, and multiplying them by values much closer to their base-value, so the end result would be less insane variance, not more.  I actually think the end result is similar to a 50 Faith per-unit floor,  50 Faith just results in a slightly wider damage/hit margin, and less room to customize your characters.  If one of my two proposals for a new Reaction rate is also used, that room becomes pretty damn important, so conserving that space is good, since it'd keep magic in proper parity with physicals - a mere 50 Faith floor with one of those new Reaction rate systems means you get a higher reaction rate for hating magic than hating physical innately, and that's also a problem, and there's not much way to fix that outside of either performing weird obtuse math on Faith or biasing it in the opposite direction.  A Faith Constant is just the cleanest, best, and math-consistent solution since it does everything needed without impeding anything else we might want to change or affecting any rules.

doriantoki

October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pm #10 Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 10:26:17 pm by doriantoki
Fine, that's your opinion, on how matches should proceed.  I was offering some suggestions.  You seem to have taken it personally, I thought this was an open forum to discuss ideas.

You're basically saying, let's remove a skill because no one uses it.  It's risky, yes, though not completely redundant.  At the moment, it's treated more as a beneficial status effect, though the AI doesn't treat it as such, which I guess is the only problem it faces in an AI tournament.  Maybe that's the problem.  If, for example, Berserk came with an automatic Haste effect (think Mad Rush in FFVIII), I would see it being used more as such, and far less debate over it's validity.  It's used for aggressive offensive units, but makes them dumber.

I'm also curious how people feel about a random damage calculation added to flails.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pm
Fine, that's your opinion, on how matches should proceed.  I was offering some suggestions.  You seem to have taken it personally, I thought this was an open forum to discuss ideas.


I'm a bitter person who quickly purges things that sound foul.  Don't take it personally.  Though if you notice, the vast majority of my suggestions would end up in a faster metagame.  Buffing mages and a Faith constant means tanking is far harder.  Far less chance of an all-encompassing defense and far less chance of having the exact skills needed to rebound because there are more threats you can actually acknowledge exist.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pmYou're basically saying, let's remove a skill because no one uses it.  It's risky, yes, though not completely redundant.  At the moment, it's treated more as a beneficial status effect, though the AI doesn't treat it as such, which I guess is the only problem it faces in an AI tournament.  Maybe that's the problem.  If, for example, Berserk came with an automatic Haste effect (think Mad Rush in FFVIII), I would see it being used more as such, and far less debate over it's validity.  It's used for aggressive offensive units, but makes them dumber.


If it added Haste and the AI decided to use it on an ally, they wouldn't discriminate melee or mage.

And it really is completely redundant.  Blackmail fills the same role better, at less risk, against more things, more accurately, and for less JP.  If you ever pick Insult instead you're probably doing something wrong.  As for simply removing a skill no one uses?  Yep.  And, unlike some of the skills FDC wants to delete like Heretic and Execute, this actually has a purpose beyond "no one uses it anyway" - Cancel: Berserk can be safely taken off status-healers so Berserker teams can run healers outside of the Item skillset.  ...Weren't you all for better aggro?  That's, erm, exactly what I'm trying to get for people here, the ability to make a wider variety of potentially powerful aggressive teams where right now you're pidgeonholed to some extent on your options.

Quote from: doriantoki on October 26, 2011, 10:17:36 pmI'm also curious how people feel about a random damage calculation added to flails.


Axes are already one-handed weapons that cover that and are in need of huge boosts or a new formula as it is despite having what's arguably the best random-formula you could give them.  And right now, the only problematic flail is Scorpion Tail and that's fixed by removing a single WP.  Why make their damage random?  It doesn't particularly seem to do anything beneficial except make flails suck more.

doriantoki

October 27, 2011, 03:02:51 am #12 Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 03:03:55 am by doriantoki
Actually, it does.  If you noticed, the weapon of choice for max damage was a dual wielded flail.  And we're considering it overpowered.  Not one axe was used, which you mentioned, was supposed to have instead fit that role.  Making it slightly random, still allows for potential max damage, but is offset by only working a % of the time, while still not crippling the weapon, and making it less over powered overall.  But I don't know.  There has to be something that makes axes more attractive, regardless.

formerdeathcorps

October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 am #13 Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 03:19:32 am by formerdeathcorps
Actually, here's another idea for flails.

10 WP, Elemental weapons with WP^2 damage and self-elemental boost (so damage = 120)
Holy Element/Boost Holy (Proc: Blind 50%)
Dark Element/Boost Dark (Proc: Poison 50%)
Wind Element/Boost Wind (Proc: Silence 50%)
Water Element/Boost Water (Proc: Slow 50%)

This way, it better services the classes that use flails (ninja and priest).

EDIT: As for axes, I would use them if their WP wasn't abysmal.  Right now, they are only worth using 2H, but the classes that use axes (Sq, Kn, Ge) each have better options, namely, crossbows, knight swords, and evasive shields + sword.

Personally, haste has been nerfed a little too much.  If the speed bonus is only 5/4x (while slow still halves SPD), can haste last at least 3/2x as long as slow?

Raven, I know full well the benefits of the constant system, but there is something to be said for not making the damage process on mages the same as the damage process on physicals (this holds true in general between any two similar classes of damage/status/defense in this game).  Making everything consistent (as well as arguing that decreased variance is always good) increases the rock-paper-scissors aspect of this game because it reduces the number of available means of defending against it.  (It's for the same reason why any Br/Fa setup allowing 100% reactions shouldn't be allowed; just using the average of (Br + Fa) / 2 seems less broken.)  Right now, the problem is more that the "effective" average damage/hit chance on magic is too low (except for things like flare/petrify, which are arguably too high) because top teams run 0 mages and 40 faith across 4 units.  The simplest way to stop this is to institute a faith floor.
Alternatively, FFM could create MA dependent unfaith spells.  The amount of ASM needed is about the same as instituting the Faith constant, and I can probably do either if FFM is too busy.

Quote
2)  Platina Dagger's proc feels too high.  25% would be more in line for how much damage it can really do.

3)  The Koutetsu Draw Out feels a bit much right now.  3 AoE + decent damage/healing + blind.  Maybe scale it back down to 2 AoE?

4)  Hidden Knife gives innate concentrate without using up the support slot.  Does it really need +1 speed too?


I'd have to disagree on all these points.  The point of the climhazzard dagger is a knife whose proc is the sole reason for existence.  This introduces the idea of variable offense, which is one thing S5 had that Arena doesn't have enough of, because it lessens determinism.  If one runs such a setup, it may lose on average, but it prevents anyone from building a perfect defense (or offense) since there's always still a good chance of losing.  (It's why I'm one of the few players who would actually prefer vanilla procs on geomancy, though I won't push it here.)
Furthermore, the platina dagger is only dangerous when it procs alongside a dual cutter or another platina dagger.  The chances of those 2x consecutive procs are 25% (assuming the dual cutter can't miss), and the unit classes that use these knives have poor staying power.  Very often, these daggers are actually being used to finish an already won fight (i.e. kill the last unit), which is a boon to video maker (less time) and the viewer (since they get to see a snappy finish).  The actual use of these daggers alone as tide-turners against half HP knights isn't nearly as likely.  If anything, if Raven gets his way with dual cutters, it shouldn't be usable with 2 Swords anymore, since the dual cutters would have an effective WP of 10-12.  That should cut out most of the "abuse", unless you consider the lone unit with two platina daggers.

Koutetsu right now outclasses heaven's cloud.  It has a comparable status effect and higher AoE.  Since it's the only 3 AoE draw out, and that's what makes it unique, that feature should be kept and blind should be dropped.

As for hidden knife, let's not forget that Auto: Transparent also adds some stupid features to the AI.  First, it draws in enemy fire onto a unit that probably has low HP.  Second, it causes the AI to spam the "Attack" option because it sees it as unevadable.  Just like the Platina Daggers, it adds some badly needed depth to classes that otherwise have skillsets that don't match their base stats.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Barren

Just read a lot of the suggested changes and a lot of which i read from raven makes a lot of sense. Paladin's should only have a skill set that helps them tank and be a HP giver i.e. transfusion. Dia moving to the priest skill set sounds like a good idea to me. It deals damage based on MA anyways and MA on a Paladin (even female) is pretty low for it to do enough damage (unless you're going for anti-charm/confusion but charm seems to be more apparent then anything else)

Ninjitsu elemental changes i'm fine with from fdc because ninjas tend to use elements other than fire/thunder/ice anyways plus they seem to be more dark based somewhat to an extent. though again it doesn't matter to me either way if katon/raiton/suiton stays the same or not. just what fdc suggests does make sense

For summons, I think leviathan and salamander should hit harder because the amount of damage they inflict is pitiful really. not many people would use leviathan or salamander anyways. sure the AoE is big but the damage is disappointing in my opinion. Watch ET vs Raven and see that leviathan only did 200 damage with faith status which isn't really a lot at all. compat might have something to do with it too but still, underwhelming damage IMO. Lich is fine as it is. Silf should do damage as well as don't act/don't move because relying on that just for the proc is not worth it really like fdc said. Odin I think should stay the same as a AoE instant death. death sentence wouldn't really fit Odin IMO. Or maybe what you can do is have it damage but had a chance to inflict death. non elemental. though whatever works is fine. Just no death sentence >_<

procs on the daggers i.e. platina dagger should be maybe 33% or 25% if it can only go down that far. whatever it takes to nerf it.

Hidden Knife I think is fine. Scorpion Tail non dual wielding is fine because if not then its like  "welcome to one shot heaven bitches!"

Draw Out seems fine to me, though I agree with the fact that koutetsu should be lowered back to AoE 2 because 3 is too large for it to be more of a popular choice than other DO's.

Lancers with base speed 8...well....would make them jump at better timing but they were meant to be faster than paladin's anyways and jump is the better skillset anyways between the two classes. that's why you have someone with 8 speed and have jump as a secondary so its fine either way really.

mediator's stats do need to be toned down a bit because they outclass almost every other MA user (except for scholar) andthey are just ridiculous to deal with like Raven said. though I wouldn't lower it too too much because that devalue their chances with talk skill. (But then again you can use talk skill on a secondary on another MA user so that solves it essentially) but if you're going to nerf mediator stats might as well re balance chemists stats so they are even. otherwise just keep them the same.

Other than that, I'm fine with whatever changes are made for 1.34
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Malroth

If you're changing the ninjitsu elements around PLEASE also change the names to match their new elements Nothing can confuse team building more than a dark element skill with a name that means Lightning.

RavenOfRazgriz

October 29, 2011, 12:52:29 am #16 Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 12:59:41 am by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: doriantoki on October 27, 2011, 03:02:51 am
Actually, it does.  If you noticed, the weapon of choice for max damage was a dual wielded flail.  And we're considering it overpowered.  Not one axe was used, which you mentioned, was supposed to have instead fit that role.  Making it slightly random, still allows for potential max damage, but is offset by only working a % of the time, while still not crippling the weapon, and making it less over powered overall.  But I don't know.  There has to be something that makes axes more attractive, regardless.


Actually, only Scorpion Tail is used for max damage because it's a Dual Wieldable Stone Gun.  12*12*1.34*1.5*2*1.05*TarFury, or 24*24*1.05*TarFury, or 604*TarFury.  The other Flails are honestly only marginally used, and only do 10*1.25*10 damage, because they're Element and Self-Boosted.  This becomes 10*1.25*10*1.34*1.5*2*1.05*TarFury, or 24*20*TarFury, or 504*TrFury.  Still a pretty penny, but still 100 less and far easier to block because it's element-based.  The main problem Flail is Scorpion Tail, who'll actually do roughly the same damage as the other three at 11 WP.  Changing the formula to a random one "fixes" the problem by nerfing every Flail, when only one Flail is the problem and the problem can be solved through one of two simple solutions.

Axes not being used is honestly in part because Axes have shitty WP, which is another thing I suggested fixing.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 am
Actually, here's another idea for flails.

10 WP, Elemental weapons with WP^2 damage and self-elemental boost (so damage = 120)
Holy Element/Boost Holy (Proc: Blind 50%)
Dark Element/Boost Dark (Proc: Poison 50%)
Wind Element/Boost Wind (Proc: Silence 50%)
Water Element/Boost Water (Proc: Slow 50%)

This way, it better services the classes that use flails (ninja and priest).


This works for me too if Ninja goes back to Dark/Wind/Water.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 amPersonally, haste has been nerfed a little too much.  If the speed bonus is only 5/4x (while slow still halves SPD), can haste last at least 3/2x as long as slow?


It already does.  It's not enough, though.  It should have 2x Slow's CT (or 48).  You'd get the same net-boost as old Haste if it runs its course, but the effect isn't immediate and devastating the way old Haste is, but instead more gradual and easier to fight against.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 amRaven, I know full well the benefits of the constant system, but there is something to be said for not making the damage process on mages the same as the damage process on physicals (this holds true in general between any two similar classes of damage/status/defense in this game).  Making everything consistent (as well as arguing that decreased variance is always good) increases the rock-paper-scissors aspect of this game because it reduces the number of available means of defending against it.  (It's for the same reason why any Br/Fa setup allowing 100% reactions shouldn't be allowed; just using the average of (Br + Fa) / 2 seems less broken.)  Right now, the problem is more that the "effective" average damage/hit chance on magic is too low (except for things like flare/petrify, which are arguably too high) because top teams run 0 mages and 40 faith across 4 units.  The simplest way to stop this is to institute a faith floor.
Alternatively, FFM could create MA dependent unfaith spells.  The amount of ASM needed is about the same as instituting the Faith constant, and I can probably do either if FFM is too busy.


The ASM for the Faith Constant is already done.  (Pride posted it.)

It's not about less variance - the numbers at 50 Fa per unit are honestly very close to what you'd get with a 50 Fa per unit rule.  You just get different math/mechanics for the sake of different math/mechanics with no gain and slightly harder to process numbers and an inhibiting of a Reaction system that checks both Br and Fa.  If anything, it's the 50 per unit floor that lowers variance - I only get 20 Faith points to customize my unit with instead of 30, which means twice as much if the Reaction rate goes off both Br and Fa.  Units are forced to look even more similar to each other.  Constant system lets you keep all 30 points of customization, get all the same benefits, get easier math, get a Reaction system with proper parity, etc.  ...There is actually no gain from a Fa floor over a Constant aside from not having to recalibrate numbers... but that's easy to do.  Current Y * .45 will give you the equivalent or very close to the equivalent of a Y in the old Fa system to what it should be in the new one.  The accuracy on that is actually really high.

I agree with leaving Kotetsu at 3 AoE and dropping Blind.  Blind is REALLY FUCKING POWERFUL now that it works, and once Mediator gets its come-uppin's and MA is properly normalized to PA (both of which will hopefully occur in 1.34), the entire Draw Out problem should fix itself.

Quote from: Barren on October 28, 2011, 08:54:41 ammediator's stats do need to be toned down a bit because they outclass almost every other MA user (except for scholar) andthey are just ridiculous to deal with like Raven said. though I wouldn't lower it too too much because that devalue their chances with talk skill. (But then again you can use talk skill on a secondary on another MA user so that solves it essentially) but if you're going to nerf mediator stats might as well re balance chemists stats so they are even. otherwise just keep them the same.


Chemists also could probably go with losing an MA point itself, if not a SPD point, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Though again, Mediator really shouldn't be balanced vs Chemist with how it's grown in Arena, its not really a support unit as much as its a carrier-class with access to some of the best status in the game these days.  I use a Support Mediator in Viper's, but that's a joke team for a reason.  I have no reason for that unit to not be a Main Gauche Chemist outside of "lolu."  Chemist is going to be a better Item-user than Mediator (and every other class) because of Innate Throw Item, and trying to force Mediator with Item to be equivalent is dumb, since even with less MA, Chemist is STILL the better choice for an Item-based healer.  Mediator has its own things it should be doing.  Just let it do what it needs to do.

It's like the confusing mess that's resulted from trying to make almost every weapon class work with both Two Hands and Two Swords when they're both essentially the same move.  It's nearly impossible to remember what the fuck works with what sometimes due to a design method that was literally pointless.  Trying to forcibly make these two classes equal as healers when only one is a proper healer-based class is dumb for the same reasons, and is (even now, as displayed) leading to its own dumb problems that should never exist.

The thing Mediator really needs to be better than Chemist?  ITS GODDAMN ROBES BACK.  I have no idea why they EVER lost their Robes.

EDIT: Just tossed "GIVE MEDIATORS THEIR GODDAMN ROBES BACK", my suggestion on how to make Lancers with 8 SPD be able to still fill their current roles (by means of all but two Spears augmenting SPD), and a couple other random discussed things into my original post as well for centralization purposes.

formerdeathcorps

November 01, 2011, 02:08:43 am #17 Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:15:07 am by formerdeathcorps
To be honest, the only thing that needs to be nerfed is mediator.

1) It should use robes again.  This being said, it doesn't need better MA than chemist since robes provide MA with HP.
2) Mediator should be the "tanky" unit capable of hybridized offense, so they don't need the extra speed point.  Thus, it becomes more offensive than chemist, but less able to serve the role of a chemist (fast sandbagging).
3) Considering the above suggestions are fairly substantive nerfs to mediator, mediator could actually keep its 4 move.  While we're on the topic of move, squire does not need 4 move with access to crossbows, innate 10 PA, and wish/yell/accumulate.  I'd rather see squires able to use shields again but have only 3 move.  Geomancers, however, right now are outclassed by squire in every way.  They could use innate 4 move.

Absorb Used MP right now isn't really that good.  Unlike MP Restore and Move-MP Up, which actively increase your MP, Absorb Used MP only slows the decline of your MP reserves (unless you habitually use moogle to heal the two units with Absorb Used MP, who run 70 fury and also know moogle or cure).  It's so weak right now that it can't even counter Witch Hunt the way Auto Potion does.  Thus, I propose that Absorb Used MP function like Auto: Ether; or that if any spell using MP hits, upon activation, Absorb Used MP heals a flat 30 MP to the user.
The proposed idea also has its own niche, when compared to MP Restore and Move-MP Up.
1) Unlike MP Restore, this works even on healing.
2) Unlike MP Restore, this doesn't restore much MP.
3) Unlike MP Restore, this counters Witch Hunt the way Auto Potion does.
4) Unlike Move-MP Up, this is more effective on physicals running Quickening/Accumulate/Ninjitsu.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

RavenOfRazgriz

I'm not sure if Mediator needs to lose the SPD point or not, but I'm not 100% against it.  The MA reduction is all that's needed for solving the immediate problem, at least.

I'll concur with Squires gaining Shields and going to 3 Move, and Geomancers going to 4 Move.  Geomancers should keep the Equip Shield Support as part of their skillset, though, especially if you follow my advocation of moving a few other things over to Squire.

Absorb Used MP essentially becoming Auto-Ether and recovering a static 30 MP when hit by an MP-costed move sounds good to me for offsetting Witch Hunt, since it's also generally usable and another good, quality Reaction for mages that decentralizes Move-MP UP.  Cost it at 300, leave it on Oracle, we're good to go.

Pierce

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 27, 2011, 03:05:53 am
let's not forget that Auto: Transparent also adds some stupid features to the AI.  First, it draws in enemy fire onto a unit that probably has low HP.  Second, it causes the AI to spam the "Attack" option because it sees it as unevadable.

I feel like Transparent needs some sort of overhaul. As you said, it fucks with the AI a fair bit, and often the transparent unit has been hit (negating transparency) before it even has a turn to attack with 100% accuracy. I don't really know of a fix for this, but maybe transparency = +1move? Just a thought, feel free to poke holes in it because I didn't consider any of the effects really when I suggest it.

For the Fury/Faith reaction rate, how about [(Fury+Faith+30)/2]. This puts 70/40 and 40/70 units with a 70% reaction rate, and if you're making yourself vulnerable with 70/70, you get an 85% reaction rate. Again, just a thought.
Ignorance itself is a crime! - Miluda