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Random Unit JP  (Read 400 times)
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Battle Wizard
Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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  • [April 17, 2017, 02:51:48 AM]
Random Unit JP
« on: April 17, 2017, 02:51:48 AM »
Okay i've been wondering this for a long time and im a little embarrassed to make such a  dumb question but..
how exactly is JP assigned to random units? :?

im tired of messing with ENTD to create new encounters adding lots of units trying to add some challenging encounters with very powerful generic units but 90% of the time it ends up with dissapointment as the units will always use the first or the weakest abilities   for their respective job, in other cases they wont do anything but attack or use weak abilities from secondary and thats no different than fighting normal units, i have tried messing with the ability learning % setting it to really high numbers (unless im mistaken thats the thing that allows randoms to have x ability learned)

i added a encounter with 5 white mages all 10 levels above the party to my surprise when injured all they did was use cure and protect instead of a really poweful ability heck not even raise or esuna maybe they were really unlucky (or lazy as fk white mages)

tried it with 5 black mages and same results~ bolt ice fire and 1 of them had ice2 but thats it

soooo if theres a way to manipulate this manually i would love to know because this only happens with randoms i dont have this issue in main story battles in fact i get my ass kicked really hard sometimes with black mages casting level 3 magic and white mages spamming cure3 and raise, even the units with custom jobs get to use pretty strong abilities but im guessing this is related to attack.out or... not?

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    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 03:05:33 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #1 on: April 17, 2017, 03:05:33 AM »
    Available JP = job level requirement + random(0, 99)
    So a Time mage with lvl 8 job would have 2100 to 2199 JP available.

    Abilities are bought from first ability down to the last ability.
    There is a learn % for each ability, if the unit randomly generates a number equal or greater to the Learn % it will attempt to learn the ability (given enough JP remaining).

    EDIT: So the ideal solution would be to place the abilities you want a higher chance to learn at the top of the skillset.

    Of course this can all be overridden and customized more nicely with the spreadsheet that I never released (because no one wants to report bugs). It allows to set a minimum level and/or job level for the AI to even attempt learning an ability and you can customize the learn order, even have it go through several "passes" to spend as much JP as possible (so if it failed to learn an ability on the first pass, it may still randomly learn it on the 2nd pass).

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 03:32:28 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #2 on: April 17, 2017, 03:32:28 AM »
    oh Xif thanks for the reply
    so the culprit is the allmighty RNGesus generating noob units with lv2-3 jobs? i see
    but i just remembered i also reduced the JP required to level JP in order to gain JP faster but still sucks its all rng based i would love to run into a pt with job levels 7

    even so i tried again by setting a unit with really high job requirements it worked for secondary since its was required to be level 6 or so in order to unlock its current job but it was the same story for its current job not a single ability only attacks maybe because the AI gave priority to the strong abilities in the secondary job skillset i will try to invite the units to find out.

    that spreadsheet sounds like something i would use knowing your hacks are extremely useful  :roll: :more:

    okay edit it seems what you said was right i tried the same encounter and this time the mages actually put a fight using abilities with high JP requirements i even recruited them to confirm and they skipped a lot of noob like abilites all i did was to manipulate the learning % and placed the good abilities at the top of the skillset
    BUT while this solves my issue it created another issue, more like a personal issue... the thing is setting the job requirements to really high levels will mean the player has to go trough that too and the second issue is i cant stand the fact that say Fire3 is above Fire2 in the skill menu thats just.. wrong it makes me scratch my head but like i said thats personal.
     i will continue messing around with it hopefully i get good results
    « Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 03:50:50 AM by Aiolon »
    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
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    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 05:01:01 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 05:01:01 AM »
    Yeah, that sounds nice and all, but it's pointless to release it when people don't report bugs even months after the initial release, only to find out on my own it wasn't working all along and everyone who downloaded it couldn't actually use it.

    Edit: To be fair you did report issues with the Synth Shop and I wasn't even able to help you. :/

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 05:17:07 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 05:17:07 AM »
    haha the synt shop bug all i had to do to trigger it was to press select to open item information before the shopkeeper finished telling me the required items i guess he gets mad when you dont let him finish his dialogue

    but as far as we know it only happened to me (for some strange reason) and i know how to trigger it so i guess its not big deal and its very rare chance for it to crash the game. even so love your work xif thanks for the help

    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 06:25:13 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 06:25:13 AM »
    Y'know, if you want the spreadsheet, I can give it to you if you promise to report any bug...
    I think I can trust you on that because of that bug report for the Synth Shop (which is a lot more than most people do).
    I'd rather see my tools used than not. I have a bunch of other spreadsheets lying in wait. They will have to go through JotF ch1 re-release bugtesting before I'm willing to release them.

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  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 02:48:13 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 02:48:13 PM »
    oh i could give it a try i just dont know what kind of bugs to expect and i dont think i need to mention i know nothing when it comes to ASM and that kind of stuff but if i ever find something out of place i report it right away

    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 03:06:14 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 03:06:14 PM »
    It's not so much a matter of "giving it a try" as it is about making it worthwhile for me to spend 3-4 hours to make the sheet nice & clean and user-friendlier. And the bug reports would just be about regular usage.

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  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 06:20:11 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 06:20:11 PM »
    you are right i wouldnt like to waste your time, if its going to be as simple as use it and tell me if you find weird stuff then yes il do it, currently i have a lot of free time to test it out.

    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 09:22:15 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 09:22:15 PM »
    So, there you go.

    Since there is no tutorial yet, if you have any questions you'll have to ask me directly.

    I highly recommend that you alter the learn % of all your skills (0 to 255%) and edit the learn % formula inside the spreadsheet to get better results. I also recommend that you set the Parse # Times value to 2 to 5, to try to ensure that units use up all their JP.

    This is obviously using my new template spreadsheet (which was a big part of the time I just spent to update the sheet), so I suggest you look into that if you never used any of my spreadsheets using it: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11594
    « Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:41:30 AM by Xifanie »
    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 17, 2017, 10:45:06 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 10:45:06 PM »
    understood i tell you if i find something  odd

    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    Raijinili [Posts: 53]
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    • [April 18, 2017, 12:28:10 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 12:28:10 AM »
    so the culprit is the allmighty RNGesus generating noob units with lv2-3 jobs? i see

    No. Each unit in the ENTD has a "Jobs unlocked" setting.

    The unit's JP depend on:
    - The Jobs Unlocked setting.
    - Job requirements for the unlocked job.
    - JP requirements per level.
    - A random 0-99 JP.

    In vanilla, the RNG factor won't give anyone more JP.

    Quote
    setting the job requirements to really high levels will mean the player has to go trough that too

    You can try to make an ASM hack which doubles JP for enemies.

    Or just reduce all JP costs.
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 18, 2017, 02:11:23 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 02:11:23 AM »
    yup i knew about the unlocked job but like i mentioned the issue comes when units know nothing when it comes to their current jobs its not really fun if they have the whole skillset mastered for unlocking x job when their current job has nothing but the most boring ability learned i even tested this and yeah secondary and other jobs were fine but whats the point to fight a Dark knight with no dark sword abilities learned?

    as for the other thing im the kind of person that pulls its hair trying to understand ASM, im no ASMer and if i wanted to do it i would probably lose interest right away even if it means changing 1 or 2  things knowing myself that would take months to do. things like "you can do it if you believe in yourself" dont work with me :(

    FINAL EDIT: Back to topic i figured out how to make this work without the hack, the only jobs afected by this problem are the ones without a higher job. mime(using it as a job with high level requirements) can be quite helpful for that. whithout a higher job the RNG decides the level of the job. i have tested this and i found lots of inconsistencies with the units being same level, same job but with diferent job level and thus diferent abilities learned.

    in fact unlocked jobs can prove quite helpful, increasing the JP required for leveling job helps too but ofc that means the player is afected by those requirements too but it seems to be the only way to manipulate random units JP (whithout using ASM)

    as for abilities learned
    even with the  learn % in patcher there are inconsistencies in the abilities each unit learns such as skipping abilities with greater %
    so hopefully the spreadsheet will help with that.
    « Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 12:55:39 AM by Aiolon »
    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 20, 2017, 05:41:52 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 05:41:52 AM »
    So... does that mean you won't be testing my hack then?

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  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Raijinili [Posts: 53]
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    • [April 20, 2017, 06:33:26 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 06:33:26 PM »
    as for the other thing im the kind of person that pulls its hair trying to understand ASM, im no ASMer and if i wanted to do it i would probably lose interest right away even if it means changing 1 or 2  things knowing myself that would take months to do.

    ASM hacking is not (necessarily) programming. Depending on how well the relevant section of code is documented on the wiki, it can be very low in technical requirements.

    For example, I wanted to change Malak's formula to use PA instead of MA. I found the Un-Truth formula (through the Formulas page), found the Wave Fist formula, and saw notes in both saying that that's where MA/PA were loaded. All I had to do was replace one line of ASM with another.

    (Then I tested it, realized that I misunderstood the FFTorgASM format, and had to write code to reverse everything. I was editing the XML file directly rather than using the more modern tools available, so you shouldn't have to worry about that.)

    Quote
    whithout a higher job the RNG decides the level of the job. i have tested this and i found lots of inconsistencies with the units being same level, same job but with diferent job level and thus diferent abilities learned.

    Are you sure? Maybe it's an unknown effect of spillover JP, such as "enemies get spillover JP from enemies" or "enemies get spillover JP from player units".
    « Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:37:08 PM by Raijinili »
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    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 21, 2017, 07:37:40 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 07:37:40 PM »
    i never said i was ditching the hack >_> the only thing i wonder and i think i should have asked its how the learn% in FFTPatcher conflict with the ones in the hack, i got the spreadsheet ready and all but before trying the hack im testing the original learn% then will proceed to try new learn% formula

    as for the JP its not spillover, tested without giving enemy units chance to perform actions so there wouldnt be any JP spillover and the result was the exact same but none of my several tries gave me a random with a job level higher than 4 (the only exceptions were the ones needed to unlock a job)and that was using vanilla.

    « Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 07:53:22 PM by Aiolon »
    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 21, 2017, 10:57:30 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 10:57:30 PM »
    i never said i was ditching the hack >_>
    Well, you said you had plenty of time to test, and you hadn't replied in 3 days, and did mention you found a solution that didn't require my hack... not much was pointing to you still planning to test the hack, so I kinda had to ask. :p

    There is no conflict, my hack simply uses FFTPatcher's Learn % as part of its formula to generate a new one based on that and the minimum level & job level for each ability. With its default settings, 50% = 50%, 10% = 10%, 100% = 100% and so on.

    • Modding version: PSX
  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Battle Wizard
    Aiolon [Posts: 90]
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    • [April 22, 2017, 02:02:38 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #17 on: April 22, 2017, 02:02:38 AM »
    Well, you said you had plenty of time to test, and you hadn't replied in 3 days, and did mention you found a solution that didn't require my hack... not much was pointing to you still planning to test the hack, so I kinda had to ask. :p

    There is no conflict, my hack simply uses FFTPatcher's Learn % as part of its formula to generate a new one based on that and the minimum level & job level for each ability. With its default settings, 50% = 50%, 10% = 10%, 100% = 100% and so on.

    the JP issue was fixed but not the ability learning thing as i have noticed RNG is in fact involved in ability learning also i would lie if i say i have tested the hack but what if i dont find any bugs? part of me thinks you know some issues and you are waiting for me to report them O: oh no!
    okay enough jokes sorry for the delay but i got a little to carried away with other things.


    • Modding version: PSX
  • Wizzard: Still trying to find the ultimate magic spell to make my dreams come true!
    Chocobo: wark...?
    Wizzard: No you stupid bird!! im talking about JOT5 chapter 2 release!
    Chocobo: wark..........
    French Maid
    Xifanie (Webmistress) [Posts: 4174]
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    • [April 22, 2017, 02:24:00 AM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 02:24:00 AM »
    ...No. I always release my hacks hoping that they are bug free. There's usually a little something that I miss that a end-user finds out. I also test my hacks thoroughly. Unfortunately, that's not always enough and I've had to face this fact several times.

    If I already knew the bugs I'd fix them instead of asking for bugtesting. This hack was completed about 18 months ago just waiting for JotF ch1 re-release bugtesting to make sure it worked properly.

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  • <R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
    <Raijinili> remember that? it was awful
    Toshiko
    Angel (Empress) [Posts: 1216]
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    • [April 22, 2017, 04:03:05 PM]
    Re: Random Unit JP
    « Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 04:03:05 PM »
    "Our Death Star has been completed, and it is the ultimate power in the universe!"
    "Our rigorous testing has found no possible weaknesses. There would literally have to be another Death Star to fire at us for this thing to be compromised."

    * rookie pilot of backwater origin using nothing sophisticated blows up the Death Star through obscure means *

    "Well, shit."

    The best bugtesters aren't professionals, but sillies doing unthought of things.

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  • * Angel should quit being a lazy bitch
    <@Elric> I agree to that as well
    At the end of the day, are we not all trapped inside lemons?
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