FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[CT5Holy]

Avalanche: Masamune has been the two options you suggested in the past. No one used it. Only Regen was too weak, Haste or Regen was unreliable (and thus weak). I think Masamune is in a good spot currently. It takes several turns to buff everyone (assuming only one Masamune user), Kibaku Fuda, a new skill, cancels Haste and Regen, Slow 2 will still be good, etc.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).

[reinoe]

Avalanche: Masamune has been the two options you suggested in the past. No one used it. Only Regen was too weak, Haste or Regen was unreliable (and thus weak). I think Masamune is in a good spot currently. It takes several turns to buff everyone (assuming only one Masamune user), Kibaku Fuda, a new skill, cancels Haste and Regen, Slow 2 will still be good, etc.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).

That's actually a good point.  Is Stone Gun really tearing up the charts right now so much so that it needs a nerf?  I hadn't really thought about it at all because I wouldn't touch Stone Gun with a 10 Foot Clown Pole.  Why are we nerfing things that might be UNDERPOWERED?

Both Stone Gun using teams in the tourney are already in the loser's bracket.  Granted one of them got there by battling it out against Barren in an epic round three.  But is there any actual results based reason for Stone Gun getting nerfed? 

[Gaignun]

But is there any actual results based reason for Stone Gun getting nerfed? 

Yes.  Patch 1.37.  They were one of the only weapons Archers used, if I recall correctly.

In Patch 1.38, 22 archers are in S2, and only 1 is using a crossbow that won't get modified.  Meanwhile, 15 are using guns.  Once spellguns are nerfed, The Damned and I expect that many of their users will migrate back to Stone Gun.  This nerf is to make them consider moving to crossbows as well.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).

That damage has 100% accuracy and 6 range, though.  It also doesn't require any PA stacking, so you have greater freedom when choosing armor and accessories.

[The Damned]

(Oh, good. Gaignun addressed the Stone Gun thing more concisely than I would have had I actually answered it first.)

Yeah, Stone Gun should be fine without a shield given it essentially inherently comes with Concentrate like all guns (and Hidden Knife). Additionally, it is only blocked by Projectile Guard, which also blocks the other things it and other guns are competing with (read: utterly dominating) in terms of use, the majority of which don't get the luxury of being able to equip Shields even if they do have Concentrate.

(Unlike, say, Hidden Knife which is as busted as it is because it's Two Sword capable and there's no way to block it at all. That on top of coming with +1 Sp and being innately available to the two fastest classes, one of which comes with Two Swords innate.)

If Stone Gun ends up being nerfed too much, then we'll just give it 13 WP again I guess rather than give it Shields back. As it is now, though, it's probably fine, especially now that its damage won't basically be obviated by Spellgun (even without Strengthen) versus all types of units.

Anyway, I think I've come up with a solution for all the MP damage...save for Bizen Boat, which I still need to think more about. I will, however, not be talking about Poles and Spears tonight because I still have no idea what the hell FFMaster is doing with Pole's formulas and Holy Spear/Lance('s proc).

I should have bugged him about it yesterday (read: Sunday).

Instead, we'll talk about Books, Harps & Cloths, partly just to get the rest of the esoteric weapons out of the way with Flails "done", partly because they're the smallest category after said Flails and partly because they should be talked about together anyway.

...Not that anyone has said yet commented about Equip Light Blade or other classes getting Flails:

spoiler: Books

BOOKS/TOMES/DICTIONARIES

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Necronomicon: This is easily the Book that's the most stable and most popular of them, to be expected. As such, it staying as it is should be fine.


2. Monster Dict: This could...probably use a better proc or, at least, have its current proc more likely to activate but it's otherwise fine.


3. Papyrus Plate: This is fine. Oddly has seen less and less use over time compared to the other books, though that's probably at least partly due to current Spellguns' bullshit. With those going to the Nether side, it may raise in use again. Regardless, it's otherwise fine. Probably.


4. Madlemgen: This is fine at present. It, however, needs a different proc if it and RLamia Harp both end up on Equip Magegear. More on that in a bit though.


Really not much to say here, which shows just how lazy I am being with this switch.

spoiler: Harps

HARPS/INSTRUMENTS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. RLamia Harp: Well, beyond still needing a name fix (to prevent further slippage of my already waning sanity), this is...mostly fine. The only real issue that comes up is the fact that it and Madlemgen have the exact same proc. This would be more or less fine...if Books and Harps weren't likely going to both be on Equip Magegear. Granted, they have different formulas, but having the same range and everything just means that, more or less, this will end up overshadowing Madlemgen on Equip Magegear 9 times out of 10 since it's way easier to power up.

Too bad the only proc change I can think of would be to give one of them Sleep and too bad I can neither decide on which one would get that nor if it should be straight Sleep status or a casting of the spell.


2. Fairy Harp: This...may be fine. It may also be slightly overpowered. It's difficult to tell given how little use Harps have seen as a whole (due to their perfectly fine exclusivity, lack of Equip X aside). The non-Bloody Strings Harps have seen even less use, so...yeah.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
Bloody Strings: 10 WP; 5% W-EV; Range: 3; Special: Absorb HP (Undead Reversal); Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (This is getting a much needed nerf that will help the other Harps actually be able to compete against it. It probably still needs to drop to 9 WP, if not 8 WP, but I'm tired of arguing that.)


Other than that, we still need to confirm/reaffirm whether or not this is actually getting on Equip Magegear and, like Equip Light Blades & Flails, decide if adding Harps to Equip Magegear should increase its JP cost.

So far, we've been especially wish-washy about the former.

spoiler: Cloths

CLOTHS/DEADLY FABRICS/GYPSY MOTHS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY FINE)
Ryozan Silk: When we discussed it months ago, this was the only Cloth that everyone agreed was fine of the three currently "meh" articles of weaponry.

We could maybe stand to up its evasion to 15% though, given it is a "rare" weapon after all (and especially if we're giving Lionheart +10% W-EV).


CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (BECAUSE NO ONE CAN AGREE ON IF THEY SHOULD CHANGE AND, IF SO, WHAT TO CHANGE THEM TO)
1. Persia: This is basically inferior to Ryozan Silk, Cherche, Iron Will and, with their upcoming improvements, Save the Queen & Wall. It's just that no one could agree what the hell to do before everyone (else) forgot.


2. Cashmere: This is basically inferior to Ryozan Silk, Setiemson, Iron Will and, with their upcoming improvements, Ragnarok & Wall. It's just that no one could agree what the hell to do before everyone (else) forgot.


I've been mulling ideas over in my head for the past four hours or so only and I haven't gotten much, but here's what I have at present...that I just decided on right now:


Persia: 8 WP; 45% W-EV; Range: 2; Sp +1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.

Cashmere: 10 WP; 30% W-EV; Range: 2; Initial: Float, Reraise; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.


So...Cashmere becomes "Diamond Helm: The Weapon", even despite that helm already having a few problems in seeing use, and Persia becomes the "I Ran So Far Away & You Can't Touch This" Cloth...without that pesky extra movement. Maybe.

The WP on them was initially switched, but I figured that power and evasiveness should be inversely proportional given Dancer's initial PA even if that evasiveness is moot while Dancing (unfortunately), so it is what is now.

Speaking of evasiveness, the reason that Persia doesn't have an outright 50% W-EV like I think someone suggested a while ago when this was initially discussed is because Defending status still outright doubles evasion. So users of this and Defend or Nurse or Caution would be absolutely stupid if it did that. As it is, they will still be very damn annoying, but not all that much more annoying than Main Gauche, which will still allow for a Shield--that's why Persia got Forced Two Hands too (since Iran's a huge...tract of land).

Dancing EDIT: Oh, and before I forget again, much like Harps, we need to confirm/reaffirm whether this is becoming a part of Equip Polearms and, if so, whether that should increase Equip Polearm's JP cost.

spoiler: MP Damaging Abilities That Are Not Bizen Boat

Okay, so something dawned on me while on my walk earlier, which goes to show how slow I am since I was the one who mentioned it even if Dokurider brought it up. Malroth's suggestion about Spell Absorb also helped.

All the MP-damaging abilities, except the dreaded Bizen Boat, trigger Absorb MP already since they use MP. This despite it being paradoxical and self-defeating to do so.

So...why not buff Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt, at least in part, by making it so they cost no MP?

Now, hear me out please. These would not be the only changes to the above three abilities and Bizen Boat still needs to change. It's just that reducing these to 0 MP seems like it would help them actually see use a lot more, so long as we adjusted them accordingly. After all, it's not like Throw Stone uses up any MP.

(And even though I'll reply to it later, I'll just say that, at present, please know I can't accept your current proposal for Bizen Boat the ability, Gaignun. I'll explain why in my next post.)

Anyway with that said, here are the other proposals I'll offer for Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt:


1. Witch Hunt: This "should" get changed to a 100% MP Drain ability with a formula of at least 8 + PA to that it drains at least 10 MP even with Summoner and Wizard's crap PA. That way, even Summoners can use it refill their mana for one big spell (at a time) provided the other team still has three or four people up. Additionally, with it no longer costing MP nor destroying MP so rapidly, it neither counters itself by triggering MP Absorb nor fucks over any class instantly that doesn't already have a shit load of MP. Its CT, much like Angel Song, could probably stand to be increased slightly to 5 given it will still deplete and MP supply rather quickly on lower end targets.

Of course, with it losing so much power, despite it not running itself into uselessness as fdc noted in the conservation with Dokurider that Dokurider posted, mana "denial" strategies take a bit of a hit as a trade-off. Or, at least, it may seem that way initially. With Spell Edge getting buffed, Monster Dict being already usable (and probably needing a slightly better proc percentage), Mage Masher maybe staying around and the other MP-damaging abilities being made useful as well, one will just have to use more than one technique for mana denial. Boo hoo.

The biggest potential problem, to me, is how the A.I. would use it. Though, for the most part, even it "only" being used as an alternative to Move-MP Up or Absorb MP or MP Restore on female units is already a big potential improvement.

(Oh, and, as with what I was talking about before with regards abilities that hit all the map, I still say this shouldn't be allowed to be Mimicked anymore.)


2. Spell Absorb: This can probably go to 0 MP like how Malroth proposed even with my hesitance about Pilgrimage; it's still susceptible to Silence, after all, and likely being on squishy mages. May want to perhaps drop the range and slightly drop the accuracy as recompense just so that Pilgrimage doesn't get too obnoxious with this though.

Hell, maybe even drop the drained percentage to 25% from 33% since it's not exactly huge shift on lower ends and it would be way more fair on the higher MP ends.

Dancing EDIT: Alternately, having thought about this on my walk, we could just make Spell Absorb not go off Faith, essentially making it further the MA opposite of Magic Ruin. That would nip the Pilgrimage thing in the ass preemptively at least while still encouraging use of Pilgrimage.


3. Magic Ruin: This is the most difficult to one to decide after the 0 MP thing, even with having to worry about Pilgrimage above. That's because Thieves are so damn fast, can move pretty damn far and this is likely to mid-charge Mages for a ridiculous amount even before Concentrate working on it.

Still, my initial suggestion of reducing this to range 2 wouldn't have changed much. So, I think, if we reduce Spell Absorb above to 25%, then this can go to 33%, but also drop to at most 150 JP and possibly become slightly more accurate while maintaining Range 3.


It's difficult to tell with Spell Absorb & Magic Ruin given how much percentages vary, even in large amounts, when it comes to MP. After all, 25% HP damage is always going to be decent damage while 25% MP can either be complete crap, if targeting, say, a (current) Thief, or a huge chunk if targeting, say, a (current) Summoner.

Shrug. I just think these things would probably help in the long run, especially the change to Witch Hunt.

And now I must go for another walk without proofreading before it gets too damn dark for my lazy ass to go out again.

I'll reply to other things, i.e. Gaignun's response and CT5Holy's question, some time later.

Dancing EDIT: Ugh. All seen typos fixed, including the stupid omission of Equip Polearms under Cloths.

[The Damned]

(Double ugh. I forgot to note that I also added like five paragraphs in the above edit as well as provided an alternative change to Spell Absorb.

I'm not going to back to "fix" that, at least not until someone actually comments on Harps or Books or Cloths or the MP damage stuff.)

Guess I'll just have to double post and shit. How surprising.

Tonight/today I guess I'll talk about Knight Swords and Axes just to both get them out of the way and to get one of the most popular classes, Paladin, out of the way weapon-wise. It helps that, Spears aside, I got all the other "exclusive" weapon types--Longbows, Harps & Cloths--besides Knight Swords out of the way already.

It also helps that, for the most part, everything in both of these is already decided. Thus you will all be spared from my (abortive) attempts at "creativity" for a night.

spoiler: Knight Swords

KNIGHT('S) SWORDS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
Chaos Blade: This seems to be doing perfectly well finally and there's no point in changing it for better or, given it still being stronger than all the other swords, for worse. After all, if nothing else, it's basically Ahong's pet at this point, so putting it (read: bringing it) down would be unnecessarily cruel. (Unless it turns out to have rabies at a later date, which case we'll put it down with cruel necessity and just tell him it died in its sleep.)


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Defender: 16 WP; 40% W-EV; Range: 1; Immune: Don't Act; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (I still think the increase to 16 WP might be a bit much, if only given the immunity and all that evasion. The other Knight Swords do have arguably better benefits than it still though, so....)


2. Save the Queen: 15 WP; 10 W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Protect; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This may actually see some use again now after being beaten up by Cherche for a while, especially in the instances of Chaos Blade's increased use and the buff to Dispel and, possibly, Gold Staff & Masamune the Katana.)


3. Excalibur: 14 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Holy, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (For the record, I am still extremely against buffing this, especially since I don't think Gaignun ever explained why exactly he thought this actually needed buffing even in the case of the other buffs. As it is now, Excalibur is already the second strongest Knight Sword despite "only" having 13 WP due to Self-Strengthening. It is also the only Knight Sword that can be used with Absorb strategies at all and thus the only one that can be used with Grand Cross without nuking the self; the only Knight Sword to have any where near the luxury, at least with Concentrate, is Save the Queen due to Protect and that will have less power than Excalibur already due to the WP drop.

Do we really to make Excalibur's already great Crosses even better and equivalent to those Chaos Blade's, only with absorb?)


4. Ragnarok:  15 WP; 10 W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Shell; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This may actually see some use again now after being beaten up by Setiemson for a while, especially in the instances of Chaos Blade's increased use and the buff to Dispel and, possibly, Gold Staff & Masamune the Katana.)


Outside of Excalibur still being disputed (and I still honestly don't understand why anyone would think it needs anymore buffs), these are decided unless, I guess, someone wants to object to Defender and didn't.

spoiler: Axes

AXES

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
Giant Axe: I've always said that this axe was better than most people seemed to think it was, even having to compete with the stupidity of the current Battle Axe. With the changes to at least Monk and said Battle Axe, it's only going to get better. So it staying as it is now is fine.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Battle Axe: 9 WP; 30% W-EV; Range: 1; 33% Decapitate (Damage: 50% of Target's Max HP; Hit: 100%); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (This the change to Decapitate--I still say we call it "Maim" now--was listed as a blue, "neutral" change in Gaignun's list. I disagree. It was a straight, necessary nerf to its current stupidity even if, yes, it will still be more than usable and very dangerous. It just won't be incredibly fucking lazy and braindead should it hit. Otherwise, the changes here are fine and I have no further comments.)

2. Slasher: 12 WP; 25% W-EV; Range: 1; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes. (Despite being the one to push this change, into the realm of seriousness at least, I'm still slightly worried that this will overshadow--over-slash?--Parry Edge and Platinum Sword despite there being less access to it than those two. Then again, it's not Slasher's fault those things are (still) of dubious quality.

Of weapons, that only leaves Ninjato/Ninja Swords/Ninja Blades/Ninja Turtles, Rods, Staves and Bags, not counting the current limbo that Spears and Poles are in until FFMaster tells us what's going on.

Considering how dead tired I'll probably be tomorrow (read: Wednesday), I'll probably just only do Bags unless I can really think of something with regards to Shields (since those are handheld as well, even if they're not weapons).

Holy spoilers, Batman.

Thanks for reminds me that I punished myself by rewatching Batman & Robin two Sundays ago.

Make Bizen Boat deal light, non-elemental HP damage with a 100% chance to cancel charging & performing.  There.  It fulfills its original purpose without the nuclear fallout.

Please no. If anything, that will only make Bizen Boat worse. While it will no longer be outright nuking MP pools, it will instead be putting mages into (slowly) dying loops of attempting to cast things, only to get them repeatedly canceled while taking "light" damage.

This doesn't seem like a big deal perhaps given that it's what Throw Stone already does...except that Throw Stone doesn't do it in an AoE. Additionally, having more than one thing that cancels Charging & Performing just seems...bad. That's part of what's wrong with Refute right now and that's not even AoE either.

(I'll fully admit that part of the reason I think this way is because I just don't like Charging & Performing-cancelling abilities in most instances.)

There has to be something else can do before we resort to that.

Orichalcum needs a nerf, or Orichalcum will become the new Katar, only with 1/2 fewer XA.

Okay. I've admitted it probably does after running that Samurai vs. Thief scenario "for" CT5Holy.

That's not the only thing "wrong" with Orichalcum though. There are at least three other factors:


1. If we give Orichalcum the same WP as Katar (and probably as Air Knife), then it's Orichalcum is just going to fall into disuse again as +1 MA really isn't all that useful for Knife users, especially compared to +1 PA.

2. In addition to the above, Main Gauche, which for some reason can be Two Handed as well, is already perilously close to Orichalcum as it is. That will likely overtake using Orichalcum anymore.

3. Even if we do need to nerf the Two Handed Knives powers, we should honestly consider also at least slightly lowering the PA for (male) Thieves and (male) Ninjas, especially with all the buffs the latter is getting.


Regardless, it's not as simple as just dropping Orichalcum to 11 WP if want the thing to actually see use.

If it should just die, then just leave it.  Its existence is not doing any harm.

That's just the thing though. I'm not sure if it should die.

Which is kinda what I was asking.

We need to decide what to do with it whether it lives or dies though, regardless of whether it changes or not. We really do.

It was a typo.  Thanks for catching it.

Okay. Good to know. Not a problem or anything.

Force-Two Hands makes it a straight nerf.  If Stone Gun gets an implicit buff, we failed.

Then we "failed" because Stone Gun is getting an implicit buff simply because Spellguns will no longer be so goddamn stupid against everything save for units with outright Innocent that Stone Gun will actually have a place again. Yes, Stone Gun is overall getting nerfed for the sake of Crossbows and Longbows (and the lesser guns) as it should and, yes, Stone Gun will do less damage on 40 Brave units than the new Spellguns will.

That doesn't also mean it isn't getting a bit of a buff of sorts simply because changes don't happen in a void.

I give a firm "no" toward any gun getting more than 6 range unless it's as weak as the current Mythril Gun.  We're trying to encourage the use of crossbows, after all.

Ha! You activated my trap card!

I didn't want it to have Range 8 either. I just put that there because I expected people might kvetch if there suddenly wasn't a Range 8 gun, regardless of what it actually did.

I'm more than fine with "lowering" it to Range 6 since that's where I wanted it anyway.

Vector Gun is a Star Ocean 2 reference?  Wouldn't it be Vectra Gun, or (more accurately) Kaleidoscope?

...Fuck. You're right. That's what I get for not actually checking things and trying to go off my shitty memory. 

Regardless, I am fine with a (maximum 6 range) healing gun.  However, straight healing is too similar to potions.  Why don't we follow Barren's suggestion and make it inflict Faith as well?

Meh. I didn't want it to inflict Faith for a couple of reasons, mainly because that kind gets in the way of part of the reason for creating a healing gun in the first place: giving Mediators a weapon that actually heals a decent amount so that they can be (actual) healers who focus on using Praise or Solution.

Additionally, that would likely make at least the newly buffed Cure spell extremely dumb, among other possible issues, given that it's newly instant.

If we want to make it add a positive status, then can't we just "compromise" yet again and make it add Reflect at some percentage since a) nothing does and b) that version of Coral Sword fell through?

Not that I'm against it adding Faith potentially or that I don't realize that being able to actively add Reflect could be problematic (for Wizard). I just have to be convinced that it should add Faith is all.

(Just like I'm not entirely against Barren's originally suggested name.)

I can understand it adding something so as to not be so "Potion-like" though.

Do you at least think its current WP is fine?

I dont know it was discusses but i think masamune is stil to strong. What was wrong with it adding Haste OR Regen? Some Ai issues i guess. Otherwise make it add Regen and increase its Aoe

Besides what CT5Holy already said, the A.I. ended up focusing on the weaker form of Masamune even more than it does the strong one now. This is partly because of the "A.I. issue" that makes the A.I., for some reason, see Random flagged statuses seemingly as "All or Nothing" statuses still, with emphasis on the "All".

So, while I agree that the current Masamune is...obnoxious, weakening it (again) that way won't change anything for the better, especially with the buff to Dispel (Magic) & other some other anti-positive status things and the addition of Kibaku Fuda. Regen status's CT also possibly being shortened should help it be less...annoying as well.

That said, I still think that Masamune would be perfectly fine if it only added Haste at 100% in Linear fashion, even with Yell and Haste (1) being buffed as they should be. But since no one else wanted to do that, we'll see how things go for it now that other abilities can actually stop its net gains entirely rather than fight a losing game even if they're Slow 2.

Also:
I thinnk shell and protect could need some buff.  Like make it heal a little Hp. Because the Ai uses it only when some HP is needed

I'm assuming you mean the spells Protect (1) and Shell (1) on White Magic and the not the statuses themselves.

Even if we gave them some HP to add, the A.I. still wouldn't use them proactively as far as I'm aware. They'd use them more often, yes, but they still wouldn't be likely to use them "appropriately" if you had both unless something was being charged on the target.

(That would mean Shell would be more likely to be used than Protect since the only "charging" physical abilities are Hawk's Eye and, in a way, Jump.)

As it is now, the buffs to Wall and, to a lesser degree, Save the Queen & Ragnarok probably obviates them anyway, really, and White Magic is already getting enough buffs despite arguably already being the strongest Magic skill set. So...yeah.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).

Yes. People "agreed" to it by not saying shit about it despite it coming up...months ago. 

I'm only being this blunt--even though I do still curse too much--because that is precisely why I nag people to respond things (when they have the time). If one stays silent while he/she is actually around--so it's not like I'm blaming Andante49 or woodenbandman or JamesOnyx or other new people--to respond, then one gets to hold one's piece for the entirety of the next update. (Unless said thing one didn't bring up turns out, "luckily", to be hideously broken.)

I personally don't see it as actual agreement, but I understand why someone like Gaignun would.

That's why I "expect" someone other than him (or Dokurider) to reply to at least one of the weapon things when they actually have the time, i.e. some time this weekend.

I'm not exactly going to get my hopes up about you us humans though.

P.S. And this is now "late" by 22 minutes.

P.P.S. Or, it was, until I proofread it, realized its hideous amount of typos, fixed it about 30 minutes ago and then deleted the updated post without actually copying it accidentally, forcing myself to have to do it again. Nice to know I'm so very smart.... Anyway, it's now late by 83 minutes.

[reinoe]

I didn't want it to have Range 8 either. I just put that there because I expected people might kvetch if there suddenly wasn't a Range 8 gun, regardless of what it actually did.

I'm more than fine with "lowering" it to Range 6 since that's where I wanted it anyway.

But we already have an 8 Range gun in the form of Romanda Gun.  The tone is as if it's going away.  It does chip damage.

[The Damned]

(But Romanda Gun would be "sort of" going away if [we] made the Vector Vectra Gun anyway.)

After all, it and Mythril Gun would be combined since current Mythril Gun is pretty much pathetic and Range 8 is, really, too damn long, even for something that only does "chip damage". Range 6 is still pretty inescapable on most if not all small maps anyway when taking movement into account, so....

[Malroth]

Harps/books:

Magdelamen's proc should be the one that changes instead of Lamia Harp, and i think sleep the spell is a much more fair proc than sleep the status.

Knight swords.  Excabilur crosses are scary (although not as scary as 2H durandal crosses will be ) I think that upping its attack power will make Holy absorbtion the central stratagey for many teams especially with mimes.

Witch Hunt:  Wow thats an intresting idea, A MP absorbing dance even one dealing PA+0 to all targets would be quite useful for many teams, and would get dance thrown on a lot of units that currently wouldn't think about it and makes the Dancer self sufficient. Also suggests a possible use for wizanabus as a similar health absorbing dance (still costing MP per use)   

[Gaignun]

KNIGHT('S) SWORDS

A 14 WP Excalibur would be identical to a 14 WP Ice Brand with Kaiser Plate, but with worse evasion.  Would this mean you have issue with the Ice Brand combo as well?

Please no. If anything, that will only make Bizen Boat worse. While it will no longer be outright nuking MP pools, it will instead be putting mages into (slowly) dying loops of attempting to cast things, only to get them repeatedly canceled while taking "light" damage.

Good point.  We could make it deal zero damage, or light MP damage.

1. If we give Orichalcum the same WP as Katar (and probably as Air Knife), then it's Orichalcum is just going to fall into disuse again as +1 MA really isn't all that useful for Knife users, especially compared to +1 PA.

Such is the fate of Orichalcum.  From the start, it's only real application has been giving mobility to MA units.  High melee damage isn't really its thing.

2. In addition to the above, Main Gauche, which for some reason can be Two Handed as well, is already perilously close to Orichalcum as it is. That will likely overtake using Orichalcum anymore.

If it's a matter of maximising damage, players will choose Katar or Air Knife.  Neither Orichalcum nor Main Gauche will be considered, so comparing their WP is irrelevant.  We could drop Main Gauche's WP by 1 if you're still concerned.

Healing gun stuff

Yeah, having it add Faith would make its combination with insta-Cure pretty broken.  A 33~50% chance of adding reflect is a better idea.  Nothing adds reflect in-battle at the moment.

Do you at least think [the healing gun's] current WP is fine?

Yeah.  It's fine. 

I'm assuming you mean the spells Protect (1) and Shell (1) on White Magic and the not the statuses themselves.

Even if we gave them some HP to add, the A.I. still wouldn't use them proactively as far as I'm aware. They'd use them more often, yes, but they still wouldn't be likely to use them "appropriately" if you had both unless something was being charged on the target.

Since I don't believe we can use a formula for adding statuses and change HP values at the same time, we would probably turn it into a cure spell that adds Protect/Shell at 100%.  In this case, the AI should use it like any other cure spell.  Off the top of my head, it could be something like:

Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Protect, 200 JP

[The Damned]

(I might as well do this now before I either get distracted looking for something all day or just fall asleep, provided I'll even have time if I don't do it now given I need to catch up with the tournament, among other things.)

So, like I said, I'll be lazy and "only" do Bags today as a token effort. I was going to do that them last night/early this morning alongside Knight Swords and Axes, but I figured "fuck it" when I saw I was going to be "late" with above post.

Meh.

spoiler: Bags

BAGS/NOT-TAMPONS (BECAUSE EVEN WITHOUT THE [JOKING] SEXISM, WHY WOULD GUYS BE USING THEM THEN? EW)

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. C Bag: Probably still going to be rather vestigial as Dokurider and I have pointed out in different ways, though Kiyomori the katana changing should help it a bit at least. It would also be helped a bit by Wizard Staff changing as well (as I think it should), but I don't want to start talking about that right now. Staves can wait until Friday. There's probably a few other changes we can do at present to make it so it's "worth" using finally, but that will have to wait until class talk.

*looks at female Monk stats*


2. FS Bag: This is still probably the most used bag, even if mostly only on male Monks. It's fine.


3. H Bag: This is...probably fine. It's always seen middling at best use, though still better use than C Bag; I think the SCC tournament was the first time I ever touched this thing personally. I just wonder how much the (necessary) buff to Sprint Shoes will affect it....


CURRENTLY CHANGING
P Bag: 5 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Regen; Special: Heals on hit; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords; Yes. (Arguably a buff even though it's unlikely to be healing much and more just likely to stop the A.I. from being an idiot and attacking with it like they will a lot more than they should with bags. Still, having no direct offense, even weak one, could bite the unit or its team in the ass, especially since Bags are good at anti-Charming, which this will no longer do.)


I was tempted to make a "mixed bag" joke about the above change, but I'll digress (even though I just did it by proxy...).

With that done, given all the time I still have today, maybe I'll actually getting around to testing some things again for once. [/this is unlikely]

Harps/books:

Magdelamen's proc should be the one that changes instead of Lamia Harp, and i think sleep the spell is a much more fair proc than sleep the status.

Yes, this is what I was thinking too or, at least, what I was initially leaning towards as well. It's just difficult to decide between changes not happening in a vacuum, Harps not being available on any class other than Bards at present and Mary Magdelene being the second most used Book after Necronomicon.

Ultimately, I just figured that the Harp, doing more damage on average, should be the one to have the lesser status and given how long Sleep still lasts at present...well, I'd say that Stop is the lesser status, oddly. This especially with the introduction of Chronos Tear.

*points to idea behind tournament team*

Anyway, so noted. I still need to think about it more, but it's nice to know where at least one person stands on it.

Knight swords.  Excabilur crosses are scary (although not as scary as 2H durandal crosses will be ) I think that upping its attack power will make Holy absorbtion the central stratagey for many teams especially with mimes.

Uhh...what?

Otherwise, I agree with you about the Mime thing. Even if we didn't ban all-map Mimicking like I think we should, elemental absorption (via Grand Cross, at least) is definitely going to get a huge boost with Mimes being able to not kill themselves with Grand Cross due to equipment wearing.

Witch Hunt:  Wow thats an intresting idea, A MP absorbing dance even one dealing PA+0 to all targets would be quite useful for many teams, and would get dance thrown on a lot of units that currently wouldn't think about it and makes the Dancer self sufficient. Also suggests a possible use for wizanabus as a similar health absorbing dance (still costing MP per use).

Well, Witch Hunt as MP Absorb (and Wiznaibus/With Knives as HP Absorb) aren't terribly original or new ideas. I even tested them before years ago; just not in this context. I'd link to FFWikia here, maybe, if Wikia in general weren't flipping me off still.

(Hmmm...maybe I should test the draining Dances again since I vaguely remember there being a display issue....)

Anyway, yeah, if the A.I. will actually use it, then this should be quite the improvement over the current Witch Hunt in terms of both usability and fairness. It's just a matter of if the A.I. will though, unfortunately.   

As for making Wiznaibus absorb HP, that's probably less of a good idea, if only because of current Auto Potion. Well, that and the only Bloody Strings really sees any use of the things that absorb HP.

For now, we should probably go with Dokurider's HP percentage thing for Wiznaibus, especially since it won't be able to Mimicked anymore either and since that can actually beat out Auto Potion without having to compete with Lore (which HP Drain Wiznaibus would, unfortunately). (If we, you know, explicitly agree on my whole "Mimes should no longer be able to mimic abilities that hit the entire map" proposal.)

A 14 WP Excalibur would be identical to a 14 WP Ice Brand with Kaiser Plate, but with worse evasion.  Would this mean you have issue with the Ice Brand combo as well?

I sorta do, to be honest. Most of that stems from Ice Brand being a) the strongest weapon in its category even before strengthening (especially now with Phoenix Blade dead), b) only ever used for Grand Cross (partly due to WP and partly due to a proc that's crappy on melee units) and c) thus being best with innate access to Shields, Swords & Clothes, of which only two Sword users innately have; that last part is admittedly probably for the best.

On top of that, there's Oil's ridiculousness and the A.I. being kinda dumb about positioning itself near enemy units that are about to Reraise when Angel Ring is basically the go-to accessory for Grand Crosses; this partly since it's the only accessory presently that even blocks Blind. And then you tack on shields being one of the few sources of M-EV? ...Yeah.

I mean, I'm glad that Ice Absorb is being used again after AeroGP's team finally stopped getting ignored and I have no problem with elemental absorb or Grand Cross & Southern Cross in general, obviously. I just think that Ice Brand is both a bit narrow and obnoxious in its current form on top of also helping to overshadow what would be the otherwise perfectly usable Tactician's Blade.

That is why I was thinking we could maybe drop its WP a bit and perhaps give it a better proc. But, meh, I'm not going to push that considering I've been pushy enough as it is and Ice is the element that's taking the worst hit going into 1.39 already due to Defense Ring getting the ability to null Ice.

That confessed, if you want to give Excalibur slightly more W-EV because of Ice Brand & Kaiser Plate, then I'd probably be fine that, especially in the face of Defender. It's just there's no reason that it should become the outright strongest Knight Sword again in terms of WP and stuff when it will likely be able to still compete against three buffed up (and two slightly nerfed) Knight Swords as it is.

Feel free to disagree of course. That's just where I'm coming from and why I was mystified for the past couple of months about your suggestion.

Good point.  We could make it deal zero damage, or light MP damage.

Between the two, it would probably better to make it do light MP damage so that the loop eventually stops itself. Hell, it would probably better to make it do "moderate" MP damage--whatever that is--so that the loop stops itself a lot earlier and so that Bizen Boat (the ability) outpaces even the highest Move-MP Up, which think already is around 25~ even before the boost to Summoner's MP.

Of course, even that doesn't solve the potential problem of an AoE Charging & Performing cancelling ability. Would this version of Bizen Boat still be AoE?

Such is the fate of Orichalcum. From the start, it's only real application has been giving mobility to MA units.  High melee damage isn't really its thing.

Yeah, that's kind of what bugs me, especially given of all the units that have innate access to Knives, only one actually maybe cares about the +1 MA and Squire has both to better MA-boosting weapons and the ability to boost its own MA via Focus.

As it is currently, Orichalcum just basically seems entirely vestigial, even on "max MA set-ups" despite its potential level of power (that Katar & Air Knife outdo without even trying). At least Mage Masher may perhaps have some redeeming qualities.

Orichalcum, at present and with the current changes we've talked about for 1.39, is just...there.

If it's a matter of maximising damage, players will choose Katar or Air Knife.  Neither Orichalcum nor Main Gauche will be considered, so comparing their WP is irrelevant.  We could drop Main Gauche's WP by 1 if you're still concerned.

True. I'm not yet sure Main Gauche's WP "needs" to be dropped. I guess I'm still just a bit surprised it has such WP and can be Two Handed on top of all that evasion (and move).

Regardless, there are other issues, with class stats, that should probably be handled or at least discussed first before we maybe decide on doing anything to Main Gauche (if we do do anything to at all).

Yeah, having it add Faith would make its combination with insta-Cure pretty broken.  A 33~50% chance of adding reflect is a better idea.  Nothing adds reflect in-battle at the moment.

Yay. I'd be completely fine with 33% Reflect, especially since the only magic skill set that can't get around Reflect in some meaningful way is White Magic, which helps create at least some kind of check to all the buffs we're giving that thing.

Yeah.  It's fine.

Okay, good to know.

Since I don't believe we can use a formula for adding statuses and change HP values at the same time, we would probably turn it into a cure spell that adds Protect/Shell at 100%.  In this case, the AI should use it like any other cure spell.  Off the top of my head, it could be something like:

Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Protect, 200 JP

Oh. By "add some HP", I just meant "heal some HP as well". Sorry for the confusion due my lazy syntax.

Anyway, speaking of buffs to White Magic, I actually rather like this. It might need some fine-tuning, but it is actually quite fine as an initial draft, even right down to being appropriately costed. So, uh, good job on implementing Malroth's idea.

I would assume that Protect 2 and Shell 2 would stay the same and Shell would be exactly similar, just with 100% Add: Shell, correct?


Spoiled EDIT: Ugh. I really need to stop accidentally putting spoiler at the end of quotes all of a sudden. Also, I meant "weapons" not "skills" in the sentence about Squires under Orichalcum.

[JamesOnyx]

I'm only being this blunt--even though I do still curse too much--because that is precisely why I nag people to respond things (when they have the time). If one stays silent while he/she is actually around--so it's not like I'm blaming Andante49 or woodenbandman or JamesOnyx or other new people--to respond, then one gets to hold one's piece for the entirety of the next update. (Unless said thing one didn't bring up turns out, "luckily", to be hideously broken.)

It's true that I've been here quite often recently, but it's mostly just been me checking in and then leaving the page open as I go to do something else (have been "busy" adding a bunch of new stages and brstms to our SSB: Project M since it's new demo release).  I haven't been replying because I mostly agree with all of the opinions being expressed already in this thread, but since you put me on the spot, I guess I can make some short comments.

spoiler: Daggers

Katar and Air Knife definitely needed to be nerfed, but I disagree with changing Orichalcum.  It needs to have at least the same power of Katar in order to even be considered on a unit.  If anything, all knives really need is for thieves and ninjas to receive a much needed PA drop as suggested by The Damned.

Spellguns are being considered for nether damage correct?  If so, then mages won't have to worry about them as much.  If someone is running a mage, they're going to protect against silence.  Therefore, I would presume the best course of action for Mage Masher would be to keep it as Bizen Boat, only boost its proc rate.  Since Spell Edge is getting the special treatment, I'd think we should do the same for Mage Masher.  Let's boost it all the way up to 100%.

spoiler: Swords

I like all the changes so far, even the change to Coral Sword which I was little hesitant to accept at first.  I like Balmung the way you have it (although it could go up to 9 or 10 WP if it's only going to be casting the spell Stop, especially if it isn't two swordable) but Storm Sword could use a slight boost.

Sword of Storms (begins playing phonograph)
9 WP; 10%W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move or Don't Act; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes.

Add: Don't Move is already covered by Ninja Edge and at a 50% proc to boot going into 1.39.  Even with this sword being able to be elementally boosted, I don't think Don't Move 33% is enough, so I included the chance to inflict Don't Act.  Sounds like fun if you ask me.

spoiler: Katana

Since there was actually a lot The Damned brought up on these, I'm just going to list out changes I find most appropriate.

Asura Knife: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; Strengthen: Fire; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Koutetsu Knife: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Bizen Boat: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; +1 MA; 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Murasame: 12 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Restore HP, Immune: Berserk; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Wind; 50% Add: Slow; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Kiyomori: 8 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; 50% Cast: Bio; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes (Loses +2 MA)
Muramasa: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; 100% Add: Faith; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Kikuichimonji: 10; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Earth; 25% Cast: Quake; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Masamune: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 2; Special: 33% Cast: Dispel (Magic); Initial: Haste & Regen; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Chirijiraden: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; +1 PA, Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes

spoiler: Longbows

Nothing to complain about here.  I actually love the buff Longbow is getting, as even though it's simplistic in design, I find the boost in range a huge boon.  Now with a boost to move, they might just be able to outmaneuver enemy gun units in the right terrain. 

spoiler: Guns

I don't quite understand the boost in WP for the Blaze Gun.  Why not the others, especially Glacier Gun when it's going to be taking the biggest hit with Defense Ring receiving Null Ice and all?  Other than that, I love the Vectra gun idea The Damned.  And the more combining of equipment that's redundant or just taking up space the better.

Also, I doubt it will happen this patch, but I think guns should also just become 2H weapons.  This would put them at about the same level as longbows and give the 1H ability exclusively to crossbows, which may help increase their nearly nonexistent usage. 

spoiler: Books/Harps

I wouldn't mind if either of the two get the ability to inflict sleep status.  Putting someone to sleep by reading to them, or by playing them a soothing lullaby, makes sense.  The only thing I want to say is if one of them ends up casting Sleep the spell, then it should have a much higher proc, at least 50%, so it'll actually inflict the status every once in a while instead of just missing.  To be honest I would prefer it just to inflict sleep but at a lower percentile, like 20-25%.

I also agree that harps should be added to Equip Magegear.

spoiler: Cloths

I like your suggestions The Damned.  Personally, I would prefer Persia to basically become the cloth equivalent to Main Gauche.

Persia: 10 WP; 40 W-EV; Range: 2; Sp +1; 2H: Forced; 2S: No.

The difference between the two would be the range, stat boosts, and the ability to be two handed.  The forced 2H already detracts users who would like to have a shield slot, which Main Gauche provides, but the Sp +1 is a definite plus over the 1 Move.  Even with Cloths weapon equation being PA * WP over Daggers [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP, I still think 8 WP is a little too low.  If you think it still needs a slight degrade in WP, I wouldn't put it lower than 9 (which is the lowest WP a Range 2 weapon has, and those provide a self boosting MA +2 and Sp +2).

I also agree that cloths should be added to Equip Polearms, or at least something so they aren't the only exclusive weapons.  I don't think it would need a boost to JP, if anything I would consider dropping it.  But somewhere from 200-300 seems about right.

spoiler: MP Damaging Abilities

I think that making these 0 MP abilities is the best option for us at the moment, but I do think they'd have to be adjusted accordingly.  Making MP Drain 25% and Magic Rune 33% seems fair, and I don't believe we'll have to worry about Pilgrimage with MP Drain if it was that percentile.  That version of Witch Hunt sounds far better then the current incarnation, I'm up for it.

Also, I don't quite understand why you guys are so afraid of Bizen Boat the ability.  As Dokurider stated, the heavy amount of MP Restoration abilities there are out there helps balance these things out, not to mention how the AI like to use it.  I would prefer it staying at MA * 9 and just making it evadable, that way we don't have just another "carbon copy" sinkhole/throw stone running around. (This coming from a person who prefers to run Magic units)

Well shoot, there goes 5 hours of my day.  I'm going to save talking about Crossbows till later so I have a little longer to think them over.  Those are my opinions and I hope they help in at least some way.

[CT5Holy]

I vote for keeping Stone Gun the way it is. It has a very real drawback; it costs 2 actions to simply get the Stone Gunner in the fight (1 action to remove Petrify, 1 action because Stone Gunner 'misses' his first turn), and then you have to wait for the Stone Gunner to get that first turn. I think the utility of the shield helps keep Stone Gun looking attractive.
If you want to make it Forced 2H, then I request it goes up to 13 WP (221 damage with AUP, pre-Fury).

I agree with Doku and JamesOnyx about Bizen Boat. When it lands, it hurts, yes, but that's its job! Mages have Move-MP UP, so they'll get enough MP back after a couple of turns (though yes, I realize that when they don't have MP its definitely awkward). You can kinda see it like Slow (or at least the way I see it) - when their guys are Slowed/no MP, that's your chance to capitalize, or at the very least recoup.
Also, those that wear Robe of Lords have enough MP to survive a Bizen Boat, and tons of people get that anyway for MP and Silence protection. Seems fine. If you guys go through with making Bizen Boat cancel Charging and Performing, yes it should stay at its current AoE. Sinkhole and Throw Stone have range, Bizen Boat gets AoE. The AoE won't be too relevant, as its unlikely to catch multiple units midcharge.

I vote for Excalibur getting 14 WP. I believe that even with 14 WP, Excalibur will remain one of the weaker Knight Swords. Save the Queen and Ragnarok granting Always: Protect/Shell is amazing! Those two will still have solid WP to do good damage while making the Paladin tough to take down. Excalibur + Grand Cross does keep the Paladin alive as well, but at the cost of its armor and accessory slots (Chameleon Robe/Angel Ring or Diamond Armor/Magic Ring). Excalibur + AUP on 11 PA Paladin deals... 17*14 = 238 pre-fury. Excalibur + Concentrate with 11 PA deals 182. That seems perfectly acceptable.

I am against lowering Ninja and Thief PA. Lowering their PA pigeonholes them into certain builds. For example, lowering Thief PA would cause them to primarily be speedy itembots, and if they want to even consider doing respectable damage, then they would need to get Two Hands. Lowering PA would also turn off using PA-reliant skillsets. Having 9 PA is low enough, honestly, because you need to spend 2 equipment slots to get them to 12 PA for the next 'boost' with Attack UP. Ninja PA was nerfed to 9 very early on in Arena's existence, where it has stayed this whole time, and I think they're in a fine place. If we're worried about 2H Katar Thieves and Hidden Knife+Ninja Knife Kagesougi Ninjas, let's examine the equipment/skills instead. I think their current stats are appropriate.

Also, for the record, H Bag and P Bag are more frequently used than FS Bag. FS Bag is, as noted, used primarily by Monks. Of course, H Bag and P Bag are also attractive options for Monks, as well as several other classes.

[Avalanche]

Ninja and Thief have 9 Pa. Reducing it would mean that they have equal Pa than a Chemist, Priest and Mediator. Talking about Mediator i think its stats are to good. A Female Mediator has 9 Speed, 9 MA and excelent HP.

[reinoe]

(But Romanda Gun would be "sort of" going away if [we] made the Vector Vectra Gun anyway.)

After all, it and Mythril Gun would be combined since current Mythril Gun is pretty much pathetic and Range 8 is, really, too damn long, even for something that only does "chip damage". Range 6 is still pretty inescapable on most if not all small maps anyway when taking movement into account, so....

But why is 8 Range problematic?  Even with the opportunity to combine with Breaks, Kagesougi, or other weapon based attacks, it's not been a problem.  And it looks like the proposal is to get rid of two guns to be replaced with one.  Is there a reason for that?

Lastly I'm still not convinced about the need to nerf Stone Gun.  If the problem is that there are worries that people will select Stone Gun over Crossbow then we should continue to focus on strengthening Crossbows.  We KNOW that Crossbows are underpowered.  The potential nerf to Stone Gun is based on speculation.

Here are some thoughts from CT5Holy...

Crossbows: How about +2 WP to all of them (except Gastrafitis)? So Bow Gun at 10 WP, status proc Xbows at 12 WP, Gastrafitis at 16 WP. Crossbows overall seem rather meh.

[The Damned]

(Hmmm...SSB: Project M sounds vaguely familiar for some reason. Anyway....

[Also hmmm...it would seem like two three people have posted before me. I deal with that later.])

You have posted in the ARENA: Balance Discussion thread and thus summoned me!

...You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you, JamesOnyx?

*yawns*

Ugh. So I just kinda woke up, but I figure I can at least answer this before I drag myself out of here for a walk, especially if you used up 5 hours replying. Ironically, this will probably be more concise than anything else. So...sorry about that, especially since I was doing the opposite of calling you out, really--I was giving the newer people a "pass":


1. Daggers: Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced about Thief and Ninja being what needs to be changed for a significant part of it. That can wait until we talk about actual class stats though. Orichalcum may yet need a power decrease just given its potential absurdity with Two Hands, but, yeah, making it the same (or lower) WP as Katar and Air Knife just means that it's not going to be used again save maybe on Mediators, who have better options frankly, especially with the buff to Mythril Gun.


2. Mage Masher: Yeah, if it stays as is, then either giving it 100% Bizen Boat or Two Hands instead of Two Swords might be the best option. Still not quite sure given the current discussion over Bizen Boat....


3. Swords: Ha, name aside (given that I've barely played any of the LoZ series), that was actually the first version I was considering--I just thought Don't Act might be a bit much or at least might step on the currently unused Lightning Bow. I'd be fine with that change though, name included.


4. Katana: So noted. I'm not really sure that Heaven's Cloud *needs* the WP boost given the addition of Genji Helm, though I can at least understand why you're boosting it. Other than that and Asura going back to just being it normal self, that's generally what I think about thing. ...Although, it admittedly would be nice to vary W-EV a bit even if that's not necessary. I'm fine with disagreements though (as I'd like to think I've made apparent, even as acerbic as I can be at times); I just need to know about them since I'm not psychic or anything.


5. Longbows: So noted. I like Longbow and longbows in general too, so I would like think they will see more use. We'll see though.


6. Spellguns: Yeah...I can't recall why the WP boost was "necessary" and I'm hesitant about it too. I think Gaignun explained a while ago, which is why I said I vaguely trust him around that part. He can probably chime in around here when he has time, even if, yeah, Blaze Gun could probably still be viable with "only" 13 WP even if the Fire series of spells in ARENA have the least power of Black Magic(k).

And, yeah, Glacier Gun probably doesn't need a WP, but I am "worried" about it, even with Oil being quite likely to still get past nullification of things.


7. Vectra Gun: Good to have another explicit confirmation of that. I guess I'll go back some time tomorrow and edit in the new name, the "new" range and the ability to add Reflect at 33%.


8. Harps & Books: Yes, I agree about the proc percentage needing to vary radically depending on whether it's Sleep the spell or just Sleep the status. At present, I learn towards the former, if only because Sleep the status as a whole still lasts too damn long for my taste. (This even if Sleep the spell otherwise currently sucks, comparative to Paralyze and Mimic Daravon, which is why Sleep is getting a slight buff and Paralyze is getting a marked nerf.)

It's just a bit of an issue deciding on whether Mary, Mother of Books gets the new proc or Lamia Harp does, though like I told Malroth above, I lean towards the latter.


9. Equip Magegear Gets Harps: So noted. I guess that's three or four people who explicitly agree.


10. Cloths: So noted about Persia. That seems fair. I was just a bit weary given I had initially given it more W-EV (obviously) and given that Dancers hit like freight trains, so with that increasing Speed....


11. Equip Polearm gets Cloths: Okay. So noted. Good to know we also have at least three or four explicit agreements on this front already. We can hash out the exact JP cost, if any change is "needed", later.


12. MP-damaging abilities that aren't Bizen Boat: Okay. I feel better about the percentages chosen then and, yeah, with only Spell Absorb at 25%, it shouldn't be so ridiculous with Pilgrimage even if it still goes off Faith. After all, it will no longer able to steal enough MP (from very high end of the MP pool, which is to say basically a Summoner) to power even two high level Summons in one go as it would have at 33%.

Now it's just a potential problem of how (or if) the A.I. will actually use Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt with the changes; Magic Ruin's changes should be fine since the A.I. is largely intelligent about that--it just hasn't seen use because current Thief is kinda dumb for several reasons.


13. Bizen Boat the ability: As someone who also likes to use mages, I'll admit that Bizen Boat the ability isn't exactly what dissuaded me to step back somewhat from mages during 1.38(d).

*looks at Spellguns and Quickening*

That said, between the other MP abilities currently trigger Absorb MP and this now, the MP restoration abilities aside from Move-MP Up actually being only moderately used at best and, most importantly, Bizen Boat doing such MP damage in and an AoE in the same skillset where you want to stack MA as it is...yeah. Bizen Boat the ability isn't outright murdering anyway like the above two problems or Katar, but it's still rather obnoxious and, unfortunately, just M-EV along isn't going to do anything given that Charging & Performing completely negate M-EV (for some reason--I say this not to blame FFMaster or anything since it's been that way from vanilla; it just seems a tad odd when you think about it).

For the record, when I say that MP-restoration abilities are "only moderate", I mean overall. While Carbunkle is used quite a bit, Carbunkle & MP Restore are damn expensive and on one of the worse classes, stat-wise, which is why there's way more Summon Magic Secondary than actual Summoners. Spell Absorb doesn't see use at all and Chakra, while it sees a bunch of use, pretty much never sees use on mages except for those two weird males Oracles with Punch Art, one of which was mine.

Similarly, while Angel Song and Ethers see quite a bit of use, those usually aren't the mages themselves either, especially since Angel Song is male only. I guess the "issue" with most MP restoration, really, is that outside of Carbunkle (& MP Restore & Move-MP Up), is on not mages and thus not self-sufficient, which just means that Bizen Boat hitting can easily eat up a bunch of terms, especially if it hits more than one person/mage.

(Witch Hunt would probably be the same way with the MP damage it does now if a) it didn't trigger Absorb MP as it does now, b) it wasn't so reliant on unreliable Mimes to live up to its full level of abuse, c) it didn't otherwise sabotage itself or rely on MP itself and d) if current Dance didn't have a truckload of other problems, including overall inferiority to Sing/Song.)



Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to take your time with Crossbows and other stuff. We still need ideas with regards to probably replacing Bow Gun, though, so try and think about that to if you can. Perhaps you can draw something else from Legend of Zelda...? (Though, from little I know about the series as a whole, Link seems to be more of a longbow user; Zelda too, apparently.)

*wonders when he started saying "so noted" so much, especially in contrast with "duly noted"*


Numerical EDIT: Well...I also can't count apparently, how surprising.

Also, "Sword of Storms" isn't a LoZ reference, is it? I'm not sure why the hell I thought that....

[CT5Holy]

Oh, what if we made Bizen Boat do PA*X MP damage? Just a thought.

[Andante49]

Haven't been around long enough to really weigh in on the bulk of the discussion about weapons (besides the "elemental" spears not having their respective elements, that strikes me as odd).

As for "tangible" ideas, thinking of a Concentrate that takes away MEV. Rough sketch: "Incantation" 400JP Support for Oracle. Also a "Master" sword/crossbow/whathaveyou that ups the critical hit rate to ~15%, no clue on what WP and such would be fair.

In regards to the MP restoration talk, I think giving your mages (or any unit that uses MP skills) something beneficial to do if their MP runs dry is good team strategy. If it's too easy to restore MP then never-ending Flares and such wouldn't make for a very enjoyable game climate.

[Malroth]

I myself enjoy flare teams and give a tiny cheer every time a pointy hat guy with glowing yellow eyes collapses nuclear death on somebody.

[Gaignun]

Orichalcum's WP nerf is not about Orichalcum; it's about Katar.  If we don't nerf Orichalcum's WP, then Katar in 1.39 will become more redundant than Orichalcum now.  Damage bots and Draw-Out bots alike will use Orichalcum.

I like all the changes so far, even the change to Coral Sword which I was little hesitant to accept at first.

Coral Sword is going to have some growing pains.  I predict that it will be completely broken with Two Swords.

Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Wind; 50% Add: Slow; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes

Heaven's Cloud's status proc is too good for 10 WP, in my opinion.  This katana is already getting a buff with Genji Helm, so I don't believe the WP boost is necessary.

Would this version of Bizen Boat still be AoE?

Yes.

I vote for keeping Stone Gun the way it is. It has a very real drawback; it costs 2 actions to simply get the Stone Gunner in the fight (1 action to remove Petrify, 1 action because Stone Gunner 'misses' his first turn), and then you have to wait for the Stone Gunner to get that first turn.

That's a pretty minor drawback on all but the smallest maps, in my opinion.  The first turn is usually spent advancing to engage the opposing team.  If anything, it keeps you from lining up in mid-field to get hit by AoE.  The risk of being preemptively struck is quite small, and this risk is certainly worth Stone Gun's 150+ concentrated damage.

6. Spellguns: Yeah...I can't recall why the WP boost was "necessary" and I'm hesitant about it too. I think Gaignun explained a while ago, which is why I said I vaguely trust him around that part. He can probably chime in around here when he has time, even if, yeah, Blaze Gun could probably still be viable with "only" 13 WP even if the Fire series of spells in ARENA have the least power of Black Magic(k).

Simple answer: Its WP needs to be boosted to 14 to keep its damage comparable to Glacier and Blast guns' damage.

Detailed answer: It's a simple law of ratios.  Nether-tier spells have lower Q values than tier-two spells.  Meanwhile, the Q values of fire, ice, and lightning always differ by 1 regardless of tier. (Fire has the lowest Q value, followed by ice, then lightning.)  This effectively increases the damage ratio between the three elements in the nether tier.

Consider the extreme case. Fire, ice, and lightning's Q values are 1, 2, and 3, respectively.  Even though their Q value differ by only 1, ice and lightning are, respectively, twice and three times as powerful as fire.  Accordingly, a fire spellgun would need roughly twice and three times the WP of an ice and lightning spellgun to deal the same damage.

Of course, this fact applies to damage ratio between Glacier Gun and Blast Gun, too.  The reason why Glacier Gun isn't receiving a similar WP boost is because it is already the strongest gun.  Moving to the nether tier makes its damage fall in line with Blast Gun.

But why is 8 Range problematic?  Even with the opportunity to combine with Breaks, Kagesougi, or other weapon based attacks, it's not been a problem.

It has been a problem.  Crossbows, with their meager 4 range, aren't being used at all. 

And it looks like the proposal is to get rid of two guns to be replaced with one.  Is there a reason for that?

We would add a healing gun.  The total number of guns remains at 6.

[Malroth]

Idea for the open crossbow slot

Stunner: 8wp, 5 W-Ev, Range 8, 50% proc  CT=0: 2h no, 2w no.