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☢ ☢ ☢ FFT 1.3 AI Tournament Season 5 ☢ ☢ ☢ [FINISHED] Post-Discussion

Started by Wiz, May 27, 2011, 12:04:42 am

ThrowAway

wow, did that summoer's damage split go off every time?  Impressive damage output by the victor
Lurker rush... ???

Barren

Everyone get the popcorn ready and bring your date because the the season 5 championship match will be coming soon ^_^
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Wiz

MATCH 126 CHAMPIONSHIP

In total, literally more than half a day was spent making this . I need to get some rest where I'll most likely make another post shredding the point that Kiku's ISN'T OP whatsoever to pieces :P
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Barren

July 14, 2011, 10:24:25 am #383 Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 11:40:57 am by Barren
Well Congratulations to our Season 5 Champion!

Once again thank you everyone for your support and I thank Wiz, fdc, gaignun, and Piercewise for helping out with this tournament.

Also thank you squidgy for the 1.3038 monster stats

Thank you CT5Holy for assisting me with checking for teams in this tourney, checking all 64 teams wasn't the easiest job but glad you helped :D

Thank you Pride for the 1.3038 tourney hack plus with the added ENTD changes and better unit placement on all the maps

Thank you Mando for the map number fixing and special thanks to philsov for the ruling of this tourney

And finally, Thank you all of FFHacktics who enjoyed this tournament, We all love you <3 (even you dinosaur)

Now onto the won/loss record of the winners bracket for those who are wondering how each team performed

note: in bold are the two teams who fought for the season 5 title

Pierce - 6/5
dinosaur - 1/2
FFMaster - 3/2
Fanatic - 0/2
OhGodBears! - 3/2
Celdia - 0/2
RedWorld - 1/2
Otabo - 5/4
PX_Timefordeath - 2/3
UniqueTownPortal - 1/2
skiploom188 - 1/2
yohyzo - 4/3
Carmine - 1/2
Zenius - 2/3
Derevish - 8/3
Vigilanti - 1/2
Veliuz - 3/2
Eternal248 - 0/2
Jansported - 4/3
Shade - 0/2
The3rdOracle - 3/2
st4rw3k3r - 0/2
Barren - 6/3
TrueLight - 0/2
Pride - 1/2
Aquilae - 11/4
Havermayer - 0/2
Smitson - 3/2
philsov - 2/3
Jaakl - 1/2
LordBobBree - 0/2
PrismSword - 4/2
Odal - 2/3
Melancthon - 1/2
Gaignun - 14/3
Lizovs - 1/2
CT5Holy - 1/2
Wiz - 5/3
Angelus - 2/2
Ryason55 - 0/2
natureguy - 0/2
Lijj - 4/2
formerdeathcorps - 1/2
pokeytax - 2/3
fattyzilla - 1/2
DomieV - 2/3
Kokojo - 1/2
Mando - 6/3
zxpr0jk - 0/2
AeroGP - 8/5
LightningHax - 0/2
Dol - 2/2
Nharayana - 2/2
Tonberry - 0/2
Kagebunji - 0/2
Kaz - 5/2
Master_Arbiter4 - 0/2
Seijin - 2/2
thi13en - 1/2
lurker - 4/3
efrate - 0/2
ThrowAway - 3/2
Squidgy - 6/4
BlameGod - 1/2
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Barren

Quote from: Wiz on July 14, 2011, 09:40:02 am

In total, literally more than half a day was spent making this . I need to get some rest where I'll most likely make another post shredding the point that Kiku's ISN'T OP whatsoever to pieces :P


funny considering you used kiku too ^_^ just saying :P
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Pride

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Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Barren

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Barren

If I made any mistakes, please let me know now and ill check out the match again and if you're right, ill make the change
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Kokojo

I do think i've won 3 matches and lost 2.

;-)

Congrats to the s5 winner!
I keep leaving, I keep coming back. Boomerang boy.

Barren

Quote from: Kokojo on July 14, 2011, 11:52:50 am
I do think i've won 3 matches and lost 2.

;-)

Congrats to the s5 winner!


i was only counting the winners bracket rounds, the loser's bracket is a different record
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formerdeathcorps

Kokojo, we're talking about wins in the Winner's Bracket only.  You won 1 against Mando and lost 2.

Barren, you should do an overall one.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Barren

You mean do a loser's bracket too or combine both wins and losses
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Barren

July 14, 2011, 04:36:41 pm #392 Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 04:57:58 pm by Barren
Okay now heres the loser's bracket won/loss record

again if i made any mistakes, please let me know and ill make the changes

note: the team in bold is the one that won the loser's bracket

Pierce - 1/2
dinosaur - 1/2
FFMaster - 0/2
Fanatic - 2/3
OhGodBears! - 10/5 (12/6 if you count rematch)
Celdia - 0/2
RedWorld - 4/2
Otabo - 0/2
PX_Timefordeath - 2/3
UniqueTownPortal - 0/2
skiploom188 - 4/2
yohyzo - 2/3
Carmine - 3/2
Zenius - 1/2
Derevish - 2/3
Vigilanti - 0/2
Veliuz - 1/2
Eternal248 - 0/2
Jansported - 1/2
Shade - 2/2
The3rdOracle - 0/2
st4rw3k3r - 0/2
Barren - 1/2
TrueLight - 2/2
Pride - 3/3
Aquilae - 0/2
Havermayer - 1/2
Smitson - 1/2
philsov - 1/2
Jaakl - 0/2
LordBobBree - 3/2
PrismSword - 1/2
Odal - 13/3
Melancthon - 7/3
Lizovs - 0/2
CT5Holy - 4/3
Wiz - 1/2 (2/4 if you count rematch)
Angelus - 2/3
Ryason55 - 0/2
natureguy - 0/2
Lijj - 2/3
formerdeathcorps - 12/5
pokeytax - 5/2
fattyzilla - 1/2
DomieV - 2/2
Kokojo - 5/4
Mando - 0/2
zxpr0jk - 7/3
AeroGP - 6/0
LightningHax - 0/2
Dol - 6/4
Nharayana - 0/2
Tonberry - 2/2
Kagebunji - 0/2
Kaz - 2/1
Master_Arbiter4 - 0/2
Seijin - 0/2
thi13en - 3/2
lurker - 2/3
efrate - 1/2
ThrowAway - 10/3
Squidgy - 0/2
BlameGod - 4/3
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Squidgy

I just realized AeroGP had no haste in his team... Just blows my mind he almost won without that! Enjoyed watching many teams, especially any with Frog action, and Pokeytax's threatening monster squad, and Congrat's Gaignun!

...and... I hate Hamedo. I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HAMEDO! Stupid bird...

Wiz

Quote from: Barren on July 14, 2011, 11:08:31 am
funny considering you used kiku too ^_^ just saying :P


I still would've ran the Samurai had Kiku been banned like it should have due to Muramasa and AOE healing and Attacking from Murasame + Asura as well as high durability (404 HP) that's complimented by Speed Save and the P Bag =/

But because it wasn't, there was no reason for me to not have it to optimize my team. There really wasn't a profound impact specifically in my section in terms of how the matches played out w/o Kiku according to testing.

QuoteI can see why Kiku can be OP but seriously, they can be countered....just like Abandon could...like formerdeathcorps said, it all depends on your team setup


It's not a matter of "can" it be, it's a matter of whether it is or it isn't definitively OP for in an AI setting.

There are no practical means of combating Kiku, other than: hoping on the reaction abilities HP Restore, Speed Save, and Damage Split; minimizing the damage output via the Shell status and MagicDefend UP; and arguably bad/worst compat in which the latter two weren't very prevalent with the exception of Gaignun's Wizard who had MDU to reduce DO Damage by a third.

As I've said before, you already have one very effective form of 100% insta damage (Throw Thief/Concentrated Ninjas, Concentrated Marksmen, Concentrated Melee Fighter), you don't need another one that's even better (as clearly demonstrated in this tourney). Really, it should have been a no-brainer to figure out just how ridiculous it was prior to the tournament. I find it ironic how the overall sentiment from S4 was that 2x Concentrated Throwers (Throw Thief, or some other vairation) were OP as expressed here and that they should be limited to 1, yet Kiku was allowed in despite the fact that it functions the exact same way.

What makes it OP is the fact that it commonly hits two people at a time and @ 12 MA Neutral Compat, that's 288 damge per use. The raw damage output by the end of match from it is far higher than what a Throw Thief could ever do with Speed Save.

QuotePlus Kiku also depends on maps

Not very much, if none at all because of it's 5 panel range. Slap Move+2/3 onto your DO user and it makes this point moot. There aren't that many maps that have such rigid terrain (Goug Machine City Map #38) that it backfires on the user by hitting their own team members. Sure Derevish defeating Odal in Round 1 was incredibly by luck from the RNG Map Selection, but look at how long he lasted for Round's 2 and 3 for that same match, it was one of the longest matches in the tourney (running it at 200 FPS) and vividly demonstrated an MA Optimized unit's staying power (others include OGB's Wizard and AeroGP's Summoner).

QuoteIf you decide to allow abandon, you must then allow a strong means to counter it, especially since damage can be checked and is expected by the AI while evasion is not considered at ALL.


As pointed out before by The Damned, Abandon is still subject to evasion where you still only have a 36% (.6 * .6) chance of dodging two attacks consecutively from the side or behind provided a feather mantle's intact meaning you're far from invulnerable from being hit by a non-concentrated attack.

You're making the argument that because Kiku's seemingly one of two convenient methods of taking on Abandoned Squads, it's not OP.

Remember that specifically only 1x of any ability's allowed...1 in total to become incredibly evasive (abandon), and 2+ that guarantee hits


There are plenty of attacks which effectively combat Abandon, making the addition of Kiku overkill

1. Concentrate -> No Brainer as to why it's good
2. Draw Out -> Large AOE of 2
3. Geomancy -> Anti Sandbagging and AOE (I think you're underestimating it fdc...look at Kaz's performance from S4 with his concentrated oriented team)
4. Jump -> With the addition of the Holy Lance,  a respectable amount of damage, 210, comes from a Male Lancer neutral compat. Enough to OHKO MA Stacked Wizards with 201 HP.
5. Guns -> As seen by Melancthon's Speedy Chemist with it's anti sandbagging.
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The Damned

(Not exactly sure I'm comfortable that we're supposed to start balance discussions about what went "wrong" with the fifth season in the same thread that held the tournament, especially so soon after the season ends. However, I suppose it makes sense given that people will at least have to look at this thread to see the conclusion and there's no "real" reason to make another thread just for it. First things first, though.)

Congratulations to the winner, even if I felt it was a bit obvious from the get-go. Similarly, I must admit my surprise that it was still 2 out of 3 even for the Grand Finals, but I guess I can understand that, especially since I know videos are rather taxing to get done.

As such, another round of thanks to all our commentators, especially given the short span of time in which it was accomplished. I was gone for most of season four, so I'm not exactly sure why that dragged on as long as it did, but I think everyone's glad to not see a repeat of that.

For all the potential back and forth that might come out of this thread now, I think we can all agree that a Loser's Bracket is a good and necessary thing for a tournament.

*****

(From here on, I'll be talking about balance issues--more than just Kiku. I'll try to be more concise than usual. I'll probably fail since there is no "try".)

I might as well answer this first since I said that I'd do it as soon as the tournament ended.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 am
Yes, but 1.3 isn't perfectly balanced.  If you decide to allow abandon, you must then allow a strong means to counter it, especially since damage can be checked and is expected by the AI while evasion is not considered at ALL.


I never said that 1.3 was perfectly balanced. 1.3 is far, far from balanced. I'm pretty sure I could write an entire five-paragraph just for how stupid I find Thief (or any player class) having Innate Concentrate. You really don't want to get me started about balance in 1.3.

Regardless, nothing is perfectly balanced. Even chess isn't. So I'd pretty much never bring that up in an argument. Ever.

With that clarification out of the way, I still find it quite odd that your main argument is essentially "we need a balance to Abandon if we keep it around; here, let me point out several other ways besides Kiku that can do that and then ignore them because they're all inferior to Kiku". There are...several things wrong with that, but I'll leave the most obvious for last I figure it deserves its own focus.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 amTrue, but there's one problem.  75+% chance the AI will do something is not certain (yes, it's not 100%), but it's usually good enough for most purposes to ensure a win, especially when the player stacks multiple 75% attacks against the opponent.  You can't simply equate the innate existence of uncertainty in most AI actions with the equality of all (uncertain) means to counter a given problem.  Some methods, given the patch and given the player setups/maps, will be better than others on average.


True, but again, that's rather obvious and doesn't seem to have anything to do with the actual problem at hand--Kiku being overpowered compared to all other options--unless I'm missing something (which is essentially possible). Moving on.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 am
OK, except under conditions where you are limited in the number of units, equipments, and skillsets, why not optimize?  If you want to win, isn't that what you SHOULD do?


Again, I never said that people shouldn't optimize or "play to win". My argument wasn't some scrubby "people shouldn't use Kiku because it's dishonorable QQ!" crap. It was "Kiku is egregiously overpowered, pretty braindead and shouldn't be allowed." Period. It's always been that.

I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, but something overpowered is always going to be optimal. Something optimal isn't necessarily overpowered; the strongest, yes, but not necessarily overpowered to the point where it invalidates all other (similar) options (like Kiku) and you end up standing no chance to win for not using it (like Kiku).

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 am
That depends on the team setup.  If your draw out unit is dealing 200+ neutral compat kiku damage, usually something is missing, either a primary skillset, HP, or the ability to heal/resurrect allies.  These are weaknesses that usually increase your team's dependence on that given (offensive) unit, which means against squads capable of manhunting, you will be forced to engage in more resurrection actions than offensive ones.


Define "manhunting".

While awaiting your answer, I'm going to have to assume you just mean "teams with units (read: Ninja) with that decked out to fly across the map and cave faces in". If so, then, yes, units meant to optimize Draw Out for maximum possible damage, which I'd argue is completely unnecessary given how much compat. plays into things, will likely die if they're in front because they're almost always squishy and their teams will have to spend time on resurrecting them.

Too bad that doesn't mean anything since Ninja basically OHKO (well, technically 2HKO, only with Two Swords) everything that isn't wearing heavy armor, but that's a set of entirely different problems that I'll get to in a bit. (Maybe not in this post.)

The problem with this argument--besides the fact that, as stated above, it can happen to anyone who isn't a "tank"--is that pretty much all those units are themselves squishy enough to at least be sent into critical by Kikuichimonji if not outright killed by; those type of units get outright murdered by Kiku if there's good or best compat. involved.

Well that's a problem as well as the fact that Samurai CAN wear armor is also a significant problem with argument. I mean, it's not like Kiku is dependent on MP or anything, so....

Between all that, the fact those manhunter units tend to rush in with their large move (even if they can't hit anyone), that Kiku has a range of 5, that Kiku (unlike Throw or most Two Swords users) can't be avoided and that Kiku users pretty much always move after Ninja &, as Wiz pointed out, can possibly be using Move +2/+3 themselves, I'm really not seeing what you're getting at again.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 amYou can argue the most successful teams were the ones who managed to overcome this by giving their draw out user a defensive support or reaction, but that doesn't downplay the fact doing so still has costs.  It reduces the maximium tanking/evasion power of the other members of the squad (because you spent some of your better armors or a mantle to protect your draw out user), and/or usually also means your other members will be forced to resort to physical attacks (simply because you used up all most of your MA gear on one unit), making you more vulnerable, as a whole, to evasive physical tanks (especially if your draw out user dies, which is usually the case because draw out users have below average HP, on average) and hamedo birds.


That might be true, but that's not nearly enough to balance it just because it (potentially) takes away from other units. Especially when we, for some reason, allowed MP Switch, which is female-only, and pretty much everyone Kikuichimonji's user was female.

(Speaking of which, why did we even allow MP Switch? I thought we were only going to allow it if we allowed Hamedo and/or Blade Grasp for humans as well, but I guess that fell through when people realized how stupid the AI is about it, as shown by the few Cockatrices that were in S5 getting pretty far even though monsters still suck otherwise; it's not like anyone even bothered to use Ghosts [and whoever has MP Switch] given how much Undead units get screwed over by...everything; oh, right, the like one Behemoth we had with its MP Switch with its inferior Giga Flare.)

Anyway, let's pretend for instance that I agreed with your arguments (somehow) that Kikuichimonji balances Abandon (somehow). Your arguments basically do nothing to talk about if it's overpowered or not. They merely seem to try to argue that it's a necessary evil "if you decide to allow Abandon".

So, I feel I have to ask the obvious as long I feel like I'm already verging into a condescending tone--my sincere apologies if I am--here: Why not just not allow Abandon either?

I mean, Abandon is already pretty stupid in its current form. It doubles evasion for everything, meaning that it automatically favors any class that can equip a Shield, which are already tanky classes, and any class that has a high C-EV, which are classes like Thief and Ninja that are already quite powerful. It makes Aegis make the unit pretty much invulnerable to avoidable magic by itself --look at how little fourth level Black Magic affected anything in this tournament compared to Draw Out or Elemental or even Summon Magic. It's a "reaction" that doesn't even take Brave into account, so squishy, low-Brave, Kiku-spamming Wizards can abuse it by just slapping on a Feather Mantle and, bam, 60% P-EV.

The only real "negative" about Abandon is that you don't get an actual reaction, but considering that no other "reaction" is 100% certain to activate like Abandon, that's quite a small trade off. This is especially true given how a lot of the time it saves units from getting killed, which wouldn't allow for them to react anyway.

Now you're telling me that Abandon being around necessitates Kikuichimonji being around?

Pfft. Off with Abandon's head then. Even you agree that Abandon is OP considering that you were looking for evasion and tanking to take the tournament, which it didn't, though it certainly caused some upsets.

Damn. This is dragging already. I guess I'll go over Ninja's many, many problems in another post if I even bother since this will apparently be the last tournament that uses 1.3. I only really wanted to point out that Kikuichimonji being optimal doesn't mean that it isn't OP and it being optimal is certainly not excuse for it to ever be allowed again (in its current form).

TL;DR: Kikuichimonji is OP, which your arguments never actually address, formerdeathcorps. Trying to argue that Abandon necessitates Kikuichimonji being around just means that it's all the more rational for Abandon to finally die the death its absurdity has managed to dodge for so long; it does not mean that allowing Kikuichimonji is the answer. It's rather telling that even with preventing Draw Out (read: Kikuichimonji) from being used with Magic Attack Up, Kikuichimonji still steamrolled over everything.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

formerdeathcorps

Quote
There are no practical means of combating Kiku

Damage split at 70% brave isn't practical?  To be honest, anything past the 60% mark in terms of occurrence is effective enough for me.
The practicality of compats depends on your setup.  If you did the "standard" best/neutral compat team, then compats are noticeably less a factor than if you ran a setup like mine (all around good compat team with two different genders at one sign), because in my case, against no team can I have completely neutral compats.  It's riskier, but it certainly contributed heavily to wins over OGB, Kaz, and Barren and exacerbated my loss against AeroGP.

You are thinking of avoiding or lessening Kiku damage.  How about actually killing the Kiku user?  There's mostly three types of kiku users:
1) Male Samurai (where Kiku was added as an afterthought)
2) Non-MA optimized units (mostly female samurai or mages who optimized HP/evasion)
3) MA optimized units (wizards, summoners, and MA optimized female samurai)

Kiku is no more threatening than earth slash from Group 1)
Kiku is a threat from Group 2, but if you have tanking + healing it isn't a problem (because a X-Potion or cure2/3 heals for more)
Kiku is only a serious threat from Group 3.  IN the tournament, we had 5-7 of note:
OGB's wizard
AeroGP's summoner
Derevish's female samurai
Gaignun's wizard
Wiz's female samurai
Lijj's Oracle
Aquilae's female samurai

It should be noted what made all of the above kiku users dangerous was that they mixed in evasion/damage/MP Switch/HP tanking with high MA.  If Kiku was truly OP, then such squads shouldn't have lost to anyone except amongst themselves and Kiku should have been instrumental to every victory.
A) OGB's team was dependent on that wizard to keep him alive.  When she died, he lost.
B) AeroGP's summoner is solid, but as Gaignun and I showed, that summoner is his weakest link because damage output = she hits a lot of units, and thus triggers the most reactive counters, meaning her HP total is the lowest after a few rounds, causing her to be zeroed in on.  When killed, our teams gain a slight breather to seize the initiative (the fact that Gaignun was able to do so and I was not is a reflection of the power of speed + correct haste synchronization, especially on Gaignun's faster physicals).
C) Derevish's entire squad did massive amounts of damage, but he couldn't tank too well against synchronized attacks.  The fact that Odal took so long to scratch his defense is emblematic of Odal's biggest problem, low speed and relatively low offensive power.  Plus, low HP + DEFUP doesn't save Lily against rival draw outs or a 2H holy lance.
D) Gaignun's wizard is essentially Mando's bait priestess concept, but with less evasion and more damage and magical defense.  It's certainly a valid and dangerous concept, but 60% evasion isn't surefire safety against Two Swords (especially from ATKUP ninja or monk).  However, Gaignun didn't do what OGB did; that Wizard was his most effective unit overall, but he had 3 other healers and 2 other attackers.  Thus, Gaignun wasn't destroyed when she was KO'd.  Reddas could also gather more speed so he can double turn revive + heal with item.  (It's also why pokeytax did so well in this tournament despite submitting what looked like a joke team.)  IN short, Gaignun's strengths lie not solely in Draw OUt, but fast and synchronized offense (between 3 attackers with haste).  The latter, I'd argue, was far more crucial.
E) Wiz, your samurai was impressive, not only in HP but also in damage output, but the rest of your squad didn't deal enough damage to match.  (That and good compats with OGB + map rematches did you in).
F) Lijj's oracle was fairly tanky between DEFUP and damage split and she did a good deal with draw out, but that squad had one very squishy unit (priestess) and only two real damage dealers.  That + some terrible movement synchronization did Lijj in.
G) Aquilae's female samurai is essentially a better version of Wiz's, but his squad against strong opposition really only had 2 healers at close range because that priestess couldn't herself up (Gaignun partially solved this problem by having a fast raise2 user).  This + his lower starting speed means he's at a disadvantage against a faster team's synchronized blitz.

In short, Kiku, like any other skill, has to be on a well-built team for it to shine consistently.  Thus, it is far important to have high base speed/haste + synchronization of speed/movement between party members + having 3+ attackers/healers than to just have a high MA kiku unit.  Of course, there's nothing barring you from having both.  As for countering high MA Draw OUt, the above suggests the best counter besides reactive counters is having a fast team with multiple party members dealing damage.  To be honest, the only thing high MA Kiku defeated consistently were squads that relied mostly on tanking to win (Mando/Odal, mostly), and I personally see nothing wrong with that, both in terms of the video (battles go by faster and there's not the a letdown towards the end where I know the tanking squad will win 3-5 minutes before the video ends only because of how slow they are at pushing their offense) and in terms of mechanical taste (in my opinion, a balanced offense/defense squad should be superior to a defense oriented squad and S5 was good in making this distinction far clearer than S3/S4).

We banned throw item + concentrate x2, but if we want to keep the mechanics roughly the same from S4 (while also remembering that people can now tank better due to the removal of JP caps), we need another decently powerful form of 100% damage.  Hence, I don't see how you find this to be an issue.
I'll speak for myself here, but my main motivation for banning throw item + concentrate was more of stopping the following that I saw in S3 from 3rdORacle's team.
Best compat + elemental weak/absorb + water ball + midcharge bonus = 430 HP healing + Dragon Spirit

To be honest, Kiku never was THAT dangerous except on best compat + constricted map.  I can only think of two examples (OGB vs. Lijj and Derevish vs. ODal).  At neutral compat, any physical unit optimized for damage does more, even with concentrate (over ATKUP/Two Hands/Two Swords).  Those physicals also have more HP.

As for the average 2x hit, yes, this is true, but virtually every hit except the first few is usually used in an anti-sandbagging manner.  This means the damage from kiku is really dealing 1x + anti-sandbagging past the first 2-3 uses.  That's essentially fire2/3 without CT or MP.  It's strong, but not really lethal except on repeated use (but if you're repeatedly anti-sandbagging someone, they've already lost the initiative and likely the match).  You could argue that this makes matches too decisive because it makes it harder to upset the opponent by a cleverly timed PD/raise/revive/wish and when speed is equal or slightly slower, P2 has an advantage on the counterpunch since the first strike kiku for P2 would likely hit more units.  Again, personally, I don't see what's wrong with making matches more decisive or giving P2 an advantage against incompetent offense.

Quote
I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, but something overpowered is always going to be optimal. Something optimal isn't necessarily overpowered; the strongest, yes, but not necessarily overpowered to the point where it invalidates all other (similar) options (like Kiku) and you end up standing no chance to win for not using it (like Kiku).

By that logic, then, we could also say that the stronger the Kiku damage, the stronger the team.  So why didn't OGB win?  Clearly, it's not the strongest overall tactic.
Nor is Kiku the strongest tactic in terms of concentrated damage.  That has to go to monk + 2 swords + 15 PA + bulls' eye.  In terms of range, a concentrated marksman is certainly better.  What Kiku is, however, is the best hybrid between these two, but since you can only have 1x of everything, most squads that wanted surefire anti-evasion also had concentrate or bulls' eye.
Yes, the odds were against non-kiku using teams, but Barren and zxpr0jk did pretty well against teams even with Kiku.  They lost ultimately to a high damage output team (which wasn't necessarily kiku).  So if that general trend holds for some of the other non-Kiku survivors, we must also consider the confounding factor that a lot of teams the kiku users beat weren't very good in the first place.

As for Kiku's range, yes, that partly shields weaker units against direct fire and draws the enemy in, but with today's metagame, striking range is almost always greater than 5.  So unless the enemy squad has terrible movement synchronization, it's usually going to draw in 1+ units.  Plus, a good number of Kiku users (like Aquilae's Mary or Wiz's Xifanie) were fairly tanky and they were targeted last by the foe anyways.  Also, staying back isn't a good idea when the rest of your squadmates are in trouble.  This proved decisive for Aquilae, Wiz, Lijj, and to some extent, OGB as well.

As for 1x of all abilities = only 1 evasive unit, your own squad invalidates this, Wiz.  Your squad has 2.5 units with good evasion, Kokojo has 2, Mando has 2, Odal has nearly 4, and Barren has 3.  Yes, two swords is a nice way to bypass evasion some of the time, and concentrate, other Draw Outs, Bulls' Eye, and Repeating Fists are good at offense (and not just anti-sandbagging), but only concentrated marksmen (not a good base class, to be honest) has the range kiku does.  Hence, kiku doesn't really make obsolete any of them since you need at least one of the others to pierce an evasive squad.  (Even in S5, you can still have 4 concentrated users of damage at fairly high effectiveness, even though you only have 1 draw out user.)

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Not very much, if none at all because of it's 5 panel range. Slap Move+2/3 onto your DO user and it makes this point moot. There aren't that many maps that have such rigid terrain (Goug Machine City Map #38) that it backfires on the user by hitting their own team members. Sure Derevish defeating Odal in Round 1 was incredibly by luck from the RNG Map Selection, but look at how long he lasted for Round's 2 and 3 for that same match, it was one of the longest matches in the tourney (running it at 200 FPS) and vividly demonstrated an MA Optimized unit's staying power (others include OGB's Wizard and AeroGP's Summoner).

Let's count how many times my samurai used Diminish not to KO a unit (or even chain KO a unit on top of demi) at neutral compat (since diminish + bad compat still does more damage than kiku).  Pretty much, every time that happened, she couldn't use Kiku because of height restrictions.  It's not even half the maps, but it's somewhere between 20-25% of all maps (on top of my samurai having float).  Now, of course, this is only usually the first or second hit where this is true, but it's still a disadvantage.  In a tight battle, every advantage counts.

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While awaiting your answer, I'm going to have to assume you just mean "teams with units (read: Ninja) with that decked out to fly across the map and cave faces in". If so, then, yes, units meant to optimize Draw Out for maximum possible damage, which I'd argue is completely unnecessary given how much compat. plays into things, will likely die if they're in front because they're almost always squishy and their teams will have to spend time on resurrecting them.

Doesn't even have to be a ninja.  A 10 SPD 2H lancer if you're P1 against a 9 SPD samurai or wizard would work too.  All you need is the ability to 1HKO or 2HKO that unit between your attackers.  The key to this, like I mentioned before, is having 3+ units capable of (preferably ranged) offense (at above 8 SPD as P1 and above 9 SPD as P2).  2 at most to KO the draw out user, and 1 to KO any support mage.  You can argue against a fast squad like Gaignun, this is tricky because one of your units will be spend a turn healing Gaignun's initial attack, but that's no issue as long as you have that third man.  Even if you can't quite pull this off, if you can tank the hits (and don't move into kiku range), you can counterpunch them still if your squad is speed synchronized (if you're not quite that fast, but playing as P2).  Of course, this often becomes a battle of kiku user vs. kiku user, but such dogfights are fun to watch.

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The problem with this argument--besides the fact that, as stated above, it can happen to anyone who isn't a "tank"--is that pretty much all those units are themselves squishy enough to at least be sent into critical by Kikuichimonji if not outright killed by; those type of units get outright murdered by Kiku if there's good or best compat. involved.

Most of these teams (excepting Wiz, Aquilae, AeroGP) have Kiku users as their lowest HP unit.  Hence, they would be the primary target at neutral compat.  The point of manhunting is eliminate the main threat before her turn.  Also, even if you don't 1HKO that kiku user, if her turn starts and her HP is less than 50%, she'll likely use murasame and then run off, essentially buying you another turn to position your units even better or deal with the other units.  (A squad with no murasame, of course, would always attack, but would actually be at an even bigger disadvantage against the manhunters because they'll have less comeback ability because they can't adequately counter AoE anti-sandbagging).

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Well that's a problem as well as the fact that Samurai CAN wear armor is also a significant problem with argument. I mean, it's not like Kiku is dependent on MP or anything, so....

Armor + Draw Out Female Samurai has a maximum HP of around 390 and an MA of 16.  However, you just used up your rune blade, your crystal mail, and your magic gauntlets.  I presume that if you want tanking on your other units or if you have a knight, you might want that sword and armor elsewhere.  Furthermore, your samurai still has 8 base speed and 3 base move/jump (presumably raised to 5 with Move+2).  I don't see how my argument was hypothetical, at all.

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Especially when we, for some reason, allowed MP Switch, which is female-only, and pretty much everyone Kikuichimonji's user was female.

Females have higher MA.  Also, MP Switch with the AI simply provides an extra 100-140 HP on a mage 70% of the time.  IT's not great because MP healing is inconsistently used by the AI.  If your mage also has MP using spells (and not just draw outs), she risks a midcharge + MP switch = wasted turn.  Your spell also has to be something spammed over kiku, or the mage will use kiku and the AI won't think about healing MP.  Notice that ThrowAway's team was able to do this because the bard was mainly focusing on refreshing the lancer's MP for haste (which as a secondary effect, gave his Draw Out/MP Switch wizard more MP).

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So, I feel I have to ask the obvious as long I feel like I'm already verging into a condescending tone--my sincere apologies if I am--here: Why not just not allow Abandon either?

Don't look at me.  If I had it my way, we would have used a raised JP cap that would have prevented precisely what we saw in this season, mages with kiku, auto-get of holy water, and knights with abandon.  But we chose to allow abandon, even though it's patently broken and allows knights to only lose to faster squads (and the occasional frog squad).  In that case, why not tip the scales back by allowing kiku?  (You can argue, reasonably, that this may have tipped the scales too far in favor of the mage with draw out and abandon, but such mages aren't unstoppable.)  Plus, as philsov noted at the time, 1x of everything + all is allowed is a less arbitrary set of rules.
In short, what I'm arguing here is mutually exclusive path.  We can ideally have neither, or we can have both (which is sub-optimal for balance), but it is EVEN worse for balance to have one and not the other.

Damned, essentially, I'm making these "lesser evil arguments" to show that you shouldn't be singling out Kiku as OP when there are far more powerful and decisive tactics in the game and taking/blunting them all from FFT would actually make the AI tournaments less fun, not more.
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krilz

I hate to be that guy but...
I find it odd that AeroGP's summoner didn't use Kiku once; especially after seeing round 2 where Gaignun's wizard advances and does Kiku right off the bat but when the summoner gets to move she does nothing (even though she's in Kiku range of the ninja). Did she actually have Kiku enabled or am I missing something? Anyway, I don't think it would've made a huge difference to be honest. AeroGP's damage wasn't on par and what clinched it was the lancer going on sandbagging duty when he had the most power.

Big gratulations to Gaignun also, I rooted for that guy ever since I saw him being 2v4 against Odal, yet still coming back and winning.

Barren

Well considering you said Wiz about it not a matter of can or cant....to me i agree a little of what formerdeathcorps said because if say you have a team that is designed to tank a lot of hits especially draw out then you wont have to worry about how much damage it really does...especially if you decide to place magic defend up and dragon spirit/damage split on a fairly mobile but high hp tank that is designed to take hits while having a throwing thief to use water ball to heal (assuming your tank had flame shiled + magic ring)

Plus i say it does depend on the map because kiku users are somewhat dependent on the size of the maps and if the units bunch themselves up and they can be taken down...plus combine that with earth slash, then say...summon magic (like aquilae's team) then yes the addition of kiku is OP because of the damage being too much to comeback from, but we've only seen a handful of teams teams that has only DO for AoE.

Earth Slash is just the same as kiku in terms of damage plus it can slightly less harder i think than kiku provided that the monk 14 PA w/108 Gems (like DomieV's Monk) plus Attack up with good/best compat or strictly 15 PA with good/best compat. Plus Earth Slash can serve well as a heal as well as damage(like formerdeathcorps' team)...but kiku is just plain high damage with yes High MA stacked units and it did have a strong showing in this tournament.

Now onto why it should never be allowed, yes its stronger than koutetsu and muramasa by a lot and you can hit through walls like in the Odal vs Derevish match, I will not disagree with you there Wiz, that is plain OP...but again i say it was the map because it screwed Odal over where his team couldnt ascend to the roof top and wait for the samurai to get in range then beat her down until his squad couldnt keep up with the anti-sandbag on Odal's part...if his squad had done that then kiku would not have been a problem (but its the AI they're stupid sometimes) Earth Slash is no different from kiku because its capable of the same thing but at least it can be avoided unlike Kiku so for that I do agree that its OP

Hypothetically if Kikuichimonji wasnt allowed for this tournament then I would say that we would have seen a different outcome in this tournament. My team was designed to counter high damaging teams with breaks and debuffs (particularly my oracle and ninja were my 2 main units) whereas my lancer helps with item botting and my knight can tank as well as inflict don't act/sleep making my opponents waste turns healing status and reducing the numbers of units i have to worry about and to counter haste squads with dispel magic/refute and my ninja destroys them while my oracle keeps them busy with status thus making DO teams useless. Of course it didn't work to the fullest extent that it could have but I'm not disappointed in my team's performance at all, i'd say i did a good job this season.

So do I really think kiku should have never been allowed overall....well...it can be countered with specific setups, that's the only thing i can say about it

Plus i didn't have a problem whether or not kiku was allowed although i did vote for it not to be allowed because it would give teams a huge advantage.
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