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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

formerdeathcorps

October 02, 2013, 05:02:19 pm #1440 Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 05:33:32 pm by formerdeathcorps
1) The Healing Gun, if it has a decent amount of WP, will be put to more efficient use in southern cross, spellbreaker, hawkeye (or Kagesougi, depending on what FFM changes).  Why should I break someone's weapon for at best 50% after evasion when I have a combo-kill 80% of the time after evasion (assuming no Proj. Guard and my teammates are still alive)?
2) If the WP is average or worse, then it will be used only to break and arm aim, as you suggested.  However, let's compare this to the mediator.
Arm Aim > Threaten
Weapon Break ~ Death Sentence because
A) WEapon Break is permanent, but only seriously affects physicals and units without Maint.  Death Sentence always leads to a KO, but the AI does not attack said unit.
B) Weapon Break trades extra range for evasion. Base hit chance is similar, though.
Potential (Me) builds > Potential (AR) builds
Notice that mediator really works well as a secondary on nearly any job, whereas the healing gun with low WP will only really promote archer arm aim and break primaries / secondaries.  By virtue of their strategy, they cannot run any kind of ranged (or have high move + melee) offense or the AI will not use arm aim or break.
3) If WP is low, this gun has no value in team offense or defense after the target is DA'd or loses his weapon.  This makes such setups automatically inferior to the current break setups (40 fury archer with concentrate or 2S ninja with hidden knife, 40 fury, unyielding) because both are guaranteed other kinds of utility after break has completed its job.
4) Existing archer setups will use don't act and breaks.  If a gunner cannot deal damage because of elemental absorb clothing and elemental nullification shields, he will opt for break or arm aim.  In general, if a unit does less damage than break would do to HP, he'll give both attacks the same priority.  Similarly, archers will use breaks or arm aim on charmed / sleeping units.  Lastly, the AI does keep track of how many of its skills take physical evasion and the rough level of enemy evasion.  If the # of skills is above 50% of total skills (not including ATTACK), the target cannot be KO'd by the existing turn combo (ignoring both reactions and evasion), target evasion is high, and the attacker can add DA or shield break, then the AI will give DA and shield break the same priority as a weapon attack.  If the target is soon to get a turn (i.e. your typical archer vs. tank paladin), DA and weapon break also have the same priority as attack.  In other words, a team that uses both HP and evasion to tank will be hit by these tactics far more than the average team.

Conclusion: The healing gun is a poor gimmick.  High WP makes it the new Blaze Gun to be spammed off kagesougi, hawkeye, and grand/southern cross, especially if made elemental, which defeats the intended purpose of the item.  Mid-Low WP makes it worthless because Mediator and the existing break setups have far more flexibility.  The low flexibility is incredibly damning because such offense, without team support, has no means of continuing itself after its main goals (of break or arm aim) are accomplished, but maybe that's just my biases towards favoring an autonomous offense.

6) As for revive, it's currently no better or worse than wish.  Unlike Raise2, which can simply ignore CT synchronization on all but the most fragile of teams, Wish and Revive require a synchronized team to ensure maximal use.  I really don't see the need to strengthen either as I've used it on both on many of my teams with little complaint, because Raise2 requires you to dedicate significant deterrence against anti-mages.  In today's metagame, that includes max damage pilgrimage spellguns, bizen boat, refute, throw stone, sinkhole, SC'd summons or silence / berserk / DA.  It is literally impossible to protect your raise2 user against all threats (nor should anyone expect such security), nor can you guarantee its reliability without exposing your team (as you need at least 70 faith on caster + at least 50 on target + good compat to get 90+%).

7) If you all are adamant about wanting a specialized breaker's gun, can't we just replace the stone gun with the rainbow gun?
I.e. Gun Properties = Half / Weak All Elements; forced 2H, 6 range, 12 WP
Gun References a spell that is All Elements, XA * 12 (not subject to faith, WP replaces XA here so it takes MADEF and Shell)
Since it doesn't take faith (or pilgrimage), the damage it normally hits for 240 at maximum.  This justifies both the 2H and the spell being all elements.
Of course, this means the rainbow staff now needs to be something else as the gun completely overshadows its effect and has range.  Maybe 8 WP with init: reflect?
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Dokurider

1.) I'd like the Rainbow Gun because it would be a much fairer implementation of Heal Gun.

2.) I actually forgot that Revive heals more than Wish, enough in fact to bypass Critical. Used timely, it can preserve momentum quite well.

3.) I don't think anyone would be sad about Rainbow Staff getting replaced. Initial: Reflect could work. So could Immune: Charm or Poison.

Now for today, I'd like to turn attention to Lancers and their Spears. I know we've already had a few discussions about them before, but I feel the subject needs more discussion.

I like the idea of making Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan Fire, Ice, and Lightning respectively, but I think they can be varied up a bit.

QuoteSpear: 12 WP, Ice Elemental, Speed +1, 50% Ice Bracelet
Mythril Spear: 12 WP, Fire Elemental, Immune: Ice
Partisan: 12 WP, Lightning Elemental, Cancel: Blind


Spear is pretty much what was originally proposed. I might have missed something, but that's pretty much the gist of it. Mythril Spear and Partisan, however, are two weapons designed to make Lancer more compatible with Grand Cross. Partisan negates Grand Cross' Blind, but also makes it a valuable weapon on it's own terms. Mythril Spear, however, isn't as on the nose for it's Grand Crossing. It's designed to buff Flame Shield by covering it's Ice Weakness.

In addition, I'd also like to change up Obelisk because I feel it's just not effective enough.

QuoteObelisk: 8 WP, 0 W-Ev, +3 PA


Yes, +3 PA. But why? Right now, Obelisk doesn't do enough to help Lancers out. It's just a harder hitting FS Bag. Which isn't bad, but it still means that Lancers lose out to Monks when to comes to Punch Art/Ninjutsu use. Lancer's PA maxes out at 17 PA, a figure a Monk effortlessly reaches with a FS Bag and a Power Sleeve. Furthermore, Lancers can't leverage their HP and Shield advantage for a position when maxed out because they had to use their shield for PA and they only have 70 more HP then a Monk. A Monk that is currently immune to pretty much everything he needs to be immune to. While half of this problem is Chakra Band, it still stands that Lancers simply can't compete with what Monks can offer even after Headbands.

I don't consider this attribute any more extreme than Javelin's +2 Speed attribute, especially with a -3 WP drop. With +3 PA, they can reach 16/17 PA and have an additional slot to make them competitive with the other physical classes. For instance, with the new Genji Helmet and their reunion with Robes, they can be built to be excellent Fuuton/Suiton users. They can also built to be tougher Punch Art users than Monks thanks to having Shields.

Gaignun

October 13, 2013, 06:34:43 am #1442 Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 05:43:19 pm by Gaignun
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 02, 2013, 05:02:19 pm
7) If you all are adamant about wanting a specialized breaker's gun, can't we just replace the stone gun with the rainbow gun?


I do not believe everyone is adamant about wanting a breaker's gun.  It is Dokurider's suggestion.

The primary purpose of the healing gun is to heal, so the gun should be judged accordingly.  The way I see it, the healing gun is a substitute for X-Potion; archers and mediators can throw these "X-Potions" at 5~6 Range without needing to equip Item or Throw Item.

Now, it is perfectly valid to question the necessity of this gun.  After all, if its primary purpose is to replace X-Potion, then its role is quite redundant!  That is why I propose that it adds reflect at a high (33~50%) percentage.  The AI is competent at using reflect to double-cast spells on targets and reach targets out of range.  However, there is currently no way to exploit reflect outside of making use of "Init: Reflect" equipment.  Depending on such equipment is not reliable because reflect expires on death and can be easily dispelled (especially once Dispel's AoE is buffed from 0 to 1).  This healing gun will offer a way to get around these difficulties by permitting the application of reflect in battle.

Dokurider: A summary of recent weapon proposals -- spears included -- was made a few months ago.  I can't blame you for failing to reference/notice them as I have not transferred them to the proposal thread.  And for a reason: We've been making 1.39 proposals for so long that if we were to request FFMaster to carry out every single one as they appear, patch 1.39 would never arrive.

Here are the spear changes.  A full list is on page 71.

QuoteSpear Moonlight: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Blade Beam
Mythril Spear Blood Spear: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Drains HP
Partisan Odin's Lance: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 20% Add: Dead
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Holy Element, 50% Cast: Holy Breath (Dmg_(MA*8))


Do any of these feel appropriate to you?

Dokurider

No, I'm pretty sure a breaker's gun was wanted at some point. I just can't be bothered to shift through everything.

Like I said, a healing gun would never replace X-Potion, mainly because of fury restrictions throttling the healing and giving up a weapon. Either way, it will be used as a breaker weapon and it's healing purpose will be largely ignored. The only way to curb it's use as a breaker weapon would be to make it a magic gun and lower it's WP very low (no higher than 8-9). Even that would probably be a bandage. My point is, you're right in not wanting it, just not for the right reasons, Gaignun.

Quote from: Gaignun on October 13, 2013, 06:34:43 am
Dokurider: A summary of recent weapon proposals -- spears included -- was made a few months ago.  I can't blame you for failing to reference/notice them as I have not transferred them to the proposal thread.  And for a reason: We've been making 1.39 proposals for so long that if we were to request FFMaster to carry out every single one as they appear, patch 1.39 would never arrive.

Here are the spear changes.  A full list is on page 71.

Do any of these feel appropriate to you?

They are just fine then. My point was to increase the Lancer's utility.

Gaignun

I believe it would be used to break equipment regardless of its WP.  Each point of WP adds only 1% to a break's success rate, after all.

I would strive to demonstrate the usefulness of its reflect proc were it implemented.  It would be used to shield high-faith units from spells.  In this respect, it is best to implement it as a faith-driven spellgun, indeed.

Malroth

I'd Like to Hear Opinions to A Phoenix blade that instead of Always:Reraise, Slow had Immune:Undead, Petrify ,Crystal, Death Sentence  ensuring that they were always revivable but diddn't automatically ensure they'd be back up the next turn.

Dokurider

I proposed something similar in the 139 topic, but as a Crystal Shield replacement. I like your idea of being Immune to Undead/Petrify/Death Sentence better than perma Regen/Poison Immunity however.

Barren

I was thinking for the flame/ice/gold/mythril shield we keep the elemental absorption but have flame shield be immune to oil, ice shield be immune to slow, gold shield be immune to don't move and mythril shield be immune to don't act so that way lets say you have a wizard or someone with black magic and you can heal them without inflicting bad status on them by accident. Gives the players more freedom to choose other equips without being locked to certain equips to have status immunity. i.e grand cross for most cases you need elemental absorption and angel ring to prevent blind
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Malroth

There also needs to be Immune Blind on at least 1 shield

Barren

If mythril shield with don't act immunity doesn't sound good then go with the blind immunity like Malroth suggested so we can see kiku grand crosses from paladins
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

There is already Diamond Armor for Blind immunity.  Making a blind-proof shield will do more for Grand-Cross squires than armor-classes by freeing up squires' accessory slot.  Grand-Cross squires are already pretty scary.  We sure we want to buff them?

Barren

I was thinking for earth absorbing paladins using kikuchimoji as a weapon and the mythril shield absorbing earth while being immune to blind spices up some setups considering if someone wanted to use kiku grand cross aside only being able to use kiku, mythril shield, cross helm, diamond armor, rubber shoes because that's the only setup that can work for earth absorbing grand cross for paladins.

Even if you switch mythril shied with gold shield and rubber shoes with diamond armlet its still essentially the same ideal setup
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Dokurider

October 19, 2013, 08:07:18 pm #1452 Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 08:23:13 pm by Dokurider
Well for one, Squires can't even equip any Earth Weapons, but what can are Geomancers. Allowing a Geomancer to use Giant Axe in tandem with Blind Proof Mythril Shield would increase it's damage from 170 to 210. But in case I'm wrong (well, if the Master Guide is wrong again) then Squires' Giant Grand Cross will go from 200 damage to 220 damage. Compare that to Squire's Brand Cross with 280 damage.

It's not a really helpful change because it's not freeing up your accessory slot during Grand Crossing. Even outside of that application, it would still be a dubious choice because of it's Lightning Weakness. It would only be handy used in Earth Absorb teams when you need Blind protection.

I think these Elemental Shields need much more help than simple status proofing. I say either remove the elemental weaknesses or give them weapons that complement them. The latter, the idea of creating Weapons that cancel the shield's corresponding weakness was something I suggested in my changes for Elemental Spear changes. Perhaps they'd be suited for the Elemental Swords instead?

Of course a third option would be give them stronger bonuses but that feels like going in the wrong direction somehow.

Malroth

Inside of Riovanes Castle should be classifed as a Small map since every unit starts  within attack range of the entire enemy team.

Gaignun

October 20, 2013, 09:16:20 am #1454 Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 11:36:14 am by Gaignun
I was thinking more along the lines of Grand Cross squires with Air Knives, Ice Brands, and FDC's Phoenix Blade (14 WP fire element sword).  Together with Yell and Wish buffs, they will be pretty versatile.  Then again, the free accessory slot will come at the price of lightning weakness, so it might not be so bad.

On the subject of elemental shields, they should become more usable if FFMaster decides to reduce the weakness modifier.

Edit:

Attached are graph assessing the 1.39 arsenal of a selection of jobs.  Damage does not consider brave nor faith.  Each data series' minimum value represents no XA optimisation (i.e. maximum freedom in the choice of equipment), whereas each series maximum value represents maximum XA optimisation (i.e. no freedom in the choice of equipment).

Archer
========
To reflect the advantage of gun's 100% hit rate, guns are used with (Magic) Attack UP, whereas non-guns are used with Concentrate.  Elemental strengthening is applied if applicable.

Stone Gun: 12 WP, Attack UP, Concentrate
Glacier Gun: 12 WP, Cast: Nether Ice, Magic Attack UP, element strengthened, Concentrate
Ultimus Bow: 15 WP, Concentrate
Silver Bow: 13 WP, 40% Cast: Holy, element strengthened, Concentrate
Silencer: 12 WP, Concentrate

Paladin
========
Ice Brand: 14 WP, 20% Cast: Ice 2, Attack UP, element strengthened
Chaos Blade: 17 WP, Attack UP
Kikuichimonji: 10 WP, 25% Cast: Quake, Attack UP, element strengthened

Samurai
========
Koutetsu: 10 WP, Attack UP, Two Hands, element strengthened
Bizen Boat: 9 WP, 100% Cast: Sinkhole, Attack UP, Two Hands
Kiyomori: 10 WP, 50% Cast: Bio, Attack UP, Two Hands
Kikuichimonji, 10 WP, 25% Cast: Quake, Attack UP, Two Hands, element strengthened
Chiridiraden, 10 WP, +1 PA, Attack UP, Two Hands

Thief
========
Dual Cutters: 8 WP, 50% Cast: Double Attack, Two Swords
Katar: 11 WP, +1 PA, Two Hands
Air Knife: 13 WP, Attack UP, element strengthened
Lionheart: 10 WP, +2 PA, Two Hands
Coral Sword: 8 WP, 25% Cast: Suiton, Two Hands, element strengthened
Tactician's Blade: 14 WP, Attack UP

All right.  Back to work.

Gaignun

October 26, 2013, 01:03:36 pm #1455 Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 08:29:20 am by Gaignun
In addition, here are graphs showing how Stone Gun and Glacier gun measure up to non-guns with Concentrate.  Weapons are wielded by the most competent class.  Elemental strengthening is applied when applicable.  Only a selection of the most powerful weapons are shown.  All other weapons (harps, knives, et cetera) have lower damage.  The 1.39 version of weapons are considered unless otherwise stated.

The first graph compares Stone Gun and Glacier Gun (both 1.38 and 1.39 versions) to the most powerful weapons that can be wielded with shields, namely Ice Brand, Lionheart, Tactician's Blade, and Coral Sword.  Also, Silencer is included as the most powerful ranged weapon usable with a shield.  Clearly, Stone Gun and 1.38 Glacier Gun outperform every weapon at low XA (i.e. no XA stacking).  With the exception of Ice Brand, only at high to maximum stacking do weapons begin to outperform Stone Gun.  Realistically, this amounts to devoting 3~4 of the 4 available equipment slots for stacking.  As for 1.38 Glacier Gun, it outperforms all weapons except Ice Brand at high stacking and Tactician's Blade at maximum stacking.

The second graph compares Stone Gun and 1.38 Glacier Gun to the most powerful two-handed weapons, namely Ultimus Bow, Silver Bow, Chaos Blade, Kikuichimoji, and Gastrafitis.  (Other katana, while also strong, are omitted as they are weaker than Kikuichimoji.)  With the exception of Kikuichimoji, Stone Gun once again outperforms every other weapon at no stacking.  However, it is outperformed by Chaos Blade at modest stacking and Gastrafitis at high stacking.  As for 1.38 Glacier Gun, it yet outperforms all weapons that are not highly stacked.

I present two conclusions.  First, Stone Gun is too powerful to be categorised as a weapon that is usable with shields.  In spite of opinions expressed elsewhere, its damage is, in fact, large at equal hit rate.  Second, 1.38 Glacier Gun is too powerful for any category of weapon and should therefore have its damage reduced.  Bear in mind that these two guns also have the advantage of 6 range.

As a corollary, katana, particularly Kikuichimonji, are slated to become the most powerful weapons in 1.39.  Mind you, they are powerful only on male samurai.  Male samurai have only 3 move and katana have only 1 range, so it will be difficult to make the most of katana's power.  (Or, at least, more difficult than 1.38 spellguns.)

Dokurider

So are you saying that Stone Gun's Initial: Petrify isn't enough anymore? Or rather, hasn't been enough? Granted, making it Forced Two Hands would take the edge off of Stone Gunners, particularly when they're build to speed. We could give them Initial: Stop in addition to Initial: Petrify, so that it'll take two turns or two units to ready them for battle.

reinoe

One thing I'm a firm believer in is showcasing that results matter.  While I never would have believed it without seeing it, Stone Gun is indeed OP when maximized.
My dreams can come true!

Gaignun

Just making Stone Gun force-2H is okay with me.  This is a pretty modest change, as it primarily affects only Archers.

Malroth

I'm definately becoming a fan of the idea of Dual elements for Lore so that its easier to grab accidental immunity for non lore Teams

How'd i'd Run it.
Malestrom Water/Darkness
Earth Dragon   Earth/Fire
Thunder Flare Bolt/Holy
Rime Bolt Wind/Ice