FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Gaignun]

I would put MP Regen on P Bag, myself.  If we put it on C Bag, then C Bag would become the go-to weapon for every caster under the sun.

MP Regen would be a new status effect.  Move-MP UP would remain as-is.

I am cool with Brave equivalents of Faith and Innocent.  As an application, setting one's Brave to 100 could be used to punish teams that eschew physical attacks.

[Kurosabes]

Are Night Killer and Hunting Bow supposed to be 9 WP? It shows 10 in the guide. My Archer refuses to go for regular attacks with these. But I don't know for sure, I haven't tried a lot of combinations and I don't know if 10 WP would change much in my case.

There should be some AoE method of cancelling Stop or some other thing to prevent it. In fact I think it's the only negative status that can't be AoE cancelled.

New statuses
For Brave statuses, names could be Sadness and Fury. Maybe Berserk's formula could be modified to set your Brave to 100 instead of just increasing attack power by 50%. The 'Lose all evasion' thing could go as well since you'd already take more damage from physical attacks. As for Sadness, really not sure what to replace since Chicken messes with the AI. I'm not sure what this really means though.

[dw6561]

I have a Night Killer in one of my draft teams, but I haven't seen any regular attacks either. Huh.

As for stop, we could add cancel: stop to Esuna or Stigma Magic in place of another status. Though I would be weary of this since Heal's ability to cure stop and oil makes it unique from those other moves.

For Sadness, we could replace Stop. Or Treasure.

Joking aside, you're right. Chicken couldn't be used too well. I would suggest Dark/Evil Looking but trying to make that status look good is rather difficult, or so I've heard. I'm assuming with MP Regen you mean to replace wall, so that's a no-go. If only we knew how to crack the AI, the only things I know how to crack are bad jokes and ethane.

[Reks]

Even if for thematic purposes, I could suggest Oil become Curse, like in CCP2.

Makes more sense given that everything elemental does double damage (with exception, ofc)




Also perhaps changing one of the Squire's current equipment pools from Books to Poles? If Samurai are gonna become more historically accurate, then technically Squires could too, since one of their training weapons were quarterstaffs.

[Kurosabes]

I'll try a quick poll. I've gathered a bunch of different ideas for Slow Dance / Cheer Song and I'd to see what option is prefered. It might be a good way to see what people think about something in the future but for now it's just something I made for fun.

Assuming speed alterations are removed, What happens to Slow Dance / Cheer Song? (Click here for Poll)

[silentkaster]

I have a Night Killer in one of my draft teams, but I haven't seen any regular attacks either. Huh.

As for stop, we could add cancel: stop to Esuna or Stigma Magic in place of another status. Though I would be weary of this since Heal's ability to cure stop and oil makes it unique from those other moves.

For Sadness, we could replace Stop. Or Treasure.

Joking aside, you're right. Chicken couldn't be used too well. I would suggest Dark/Evil Looking but trying to make that status look good is rather difficult, or so I've heard. I'm assuming with MP Regen you mean to replace wall, so that's a no-go. If only we knew how to crack the AI, the only things I know how to crack are bad jokes and ethane.

For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA

[dw6561]

For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA

I would be okay with both MP regen being an entirely new status or it being merged with HP Regen and putting MP depletion on poison. I'm actually leaning more towards the latter though, because it makes poison a more viable status and another counter for Move-MP Up.

I think I know where you are coming from with nerfing Masamune, and I can see why slow dance might need to have a lesser accuracy than cheer song. I definitely agree that the bags should get a stat nerf if they get status immunities too. I don't really like the crystal immunity on FS Bag though. Sure, units with FS Bag wouldn't get right back up after three turns, but what I'm really concerned about is using two cursed rings and two FS bags to make your entire team immune to crystal.

[silentkaster]

(I always think of that kid's show Arthur whenever I see your screen name, dw6561, ha ha.)

I'm not 100% on Immune: Crystal. It's just an idea. We could always replace that with another status immunity, too if people like that.

I don't think you were around when we had immortal teams, but we've already somewhat experienced the situation you've brought up when we had them. It doesn't give either side a significant advantage usually, but I definitely understand your reservation and wouldn't mind seeing another suggestion if people like changing the bags like that.

[Gaignun]

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

I would prefer to keep MP Regen separate from Regen and have the Regen skill add both statuses.  Otherwise Masamune would get even stronger.

And concerning Masamune:

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Masamune was like this a long time ago.  In those times, the AI would continually use Masamune until Haste was applied, resulting in wasted turns.  Accordingly, I cannot get behind this proposal.

Also, as mentioned several pages ago, I am not in favour of items that add Crystal immunity since they goes against the proven style of Arena.  Cursed Ring is one of those weird exceptions, since it carries the huge drawback of exposing its wearer to healing skills.

I am fine with the Song/Dance and 108 Gems changes, and don't yet have an opinion of the bag changes.

Edit: A quick summary of the recent status discussions:
MP Regen: Restores 1/8 of max MP per turn
MP Poison: Drains 1/8 of max MP per turn
Fury: Sets Fury to 100
Sadness: Sets Fury to 0

Obsolete status effects:
Bloodsuck, Confusion, Invite, Evil Looking, Chicken, Wall

[silentkaster]

I think most of us can agree that Masamune is already an excellent skill, and some may even say overpowered. But this is why it needs a nerf.

Is there a way to Add: Haste and then 50% of the time, Proc Regen? That way, the AI wouldn't continue to re-use Masamune over and over to get Haste. The AI would know that Regen is not guaranteed and not always go for it.

I strongly disagree with making a separate status for "MP Regen" and "MP Poison," as this would be a lot of work, require new palettes to be introduced, and would be confusing with what we already have. For example, in this scenario, it's possible to have MP Regen and Poison at the same time...but what would the commanding color be? It's already hard to keep track of when a unit is Berserked and Poisoned, or undead but has Regen or Transparent, but a unit could literally have five of these color changing statuses at a time (Berserk, Transparent, Undead, Regen and Poison).

Second, Equipment and skills would have to change and likely change a lot. We could add a few items in that are currently unused (for example, Leather Hat and Leather Vest) to have Always: MP Regen or something like that, but then an ability (Probably several) would also have to change it. Would MP Poison be able to be cured by Esuna? Heal? Stigma Magic? Would there be an extra ability added to Summon Magic or White Magic (Or another skillset) to just cast MP Regen? Also, we have to make new and/or change abilities to Add/Proc MP Poison.

Finally, I don't think that it's a valid reason not to change a status because an ability is arguably OP. It's better to change the ability itself. In addition to what I mentioned above, Masamune could be changed in other ways as well...like have it only be self affecting, give it a CT of 1, or remove Regen from it entirely and give it something like Add: Haste/Transparent or Add: Haste/Float. (Admittedly if adding MP to the Regen status, Nurse would also have to change, perhaps to give only 25% HP or something since merely nerfing its MP cost would not do much.)

[Shintroy]

Just came by to say changing kiyomori and masamune back to only adding one status effect is taking steps back. We've been over this years ago with 1.3's AI tournaments. Masamune and Kiyomori both went through a lot to get to where they are now. Adding CT to a draw out is insane. The ability isn't overpowered so why change it? I'd be more concerned with the MA and PA*7 draw out abilities. Would buffing them to *8 make them OP? Draw out barely has any place on an absorb team because of it's low power and the unit having to be in close range to use the ability.

I loved MP regeneration being added to regen and wouldn't mind seeing it in arena. The main reason it would buff masamune and nurse is because they're the only abilities the AI use correctly. The AI is fickle with mp recovery. They'll use carbuncle correctly, but not Ether. Will it be the same with MP regen? Who knows. If MP regen were to become it's own buff and debuff I'd like to see them on spell and life absorb. Change the formula to be based off of MA instead of percentage and make them give the user regen and mp regen.

Don't mind me. I'm just more for fixing abilities that screw up the AI more than I am adding abilities in the game that'll only make the AI act even worse and probably go unused. 140's going to be huge with the return of death sentence, the possible removal of SP altering, and a overhaul of spears.

[silentkaster]

I know what you mean by taking steps back, but the fact is if we add MP to Regen, Masamune would become overpowered. Add Masamune to a caster unit (which, incidentally, Draw Out is a great skill set to have on a caster anyway) and what do you have? A caster that doesn't have to worry about MP, who has good magic, possible very strong draw outs, and HP restoration to boot which is instant and has an (admittedly small) AOE.

It is not standard to give it a CT, but that at least cuts the instant benefit that someone gets from Masamune, and was just an idea thrown about. There are other ways to change Masamune to be more balanced if MP gets added to Regen.

For the record, as I mentioned earlier, while I'd like to see MP restoration added to Regen, if this isn't acceptable, I'd rather there be no MP Regen in the game than making it a separate status. I feel like it'll just be confusing and require a lot of abilities and equipment to undergo huge changes which doesn't seem necessary.

Spell and Life Absorb wouldn't work. You already have the spell, "Regen" in White Magic, so there is no need for a single target spell to cast Regen that costs MP. While you could have "MP Poison" be spell absorb, the point of casting this spell to begin with is that this is a spell the AI tends to use well. It will sap MP from a target when it is low (which, admittedly, with the set ups we have isn't often, so the reason we don't see it more is because people simply don't want to waste the JP when they add Move-MP UP or some other MP restoration which is innate to Oracle anyway). But when they cast MP Poison on the target, the caster gets no benefit in that case. This couldn't be like a Bizen Boat where it will mid-charge...it wouldn't affect the caster until they take their next turn. It could wear on them over time, but again, we need a way to cure it. Plus, a spell that just casts MP Poison would probably need to have an AOE to have any appeal. Likewise, a support spell like MP Regen would be pretty out of place in the Oracle skill set, a skill set which literally only has offensive magic (not to mention that Oracles already have a reaction and a movement skill that recovers MP).

[Shintroy]

Speaking of Regen. I hope FFMaster doesn't overlook the need for a poison immune accessory in 140. What was the reasoning behind removing it from 108 gems?

I hope spell guns go back to being 6 range, but still stay forced 2 hands.

Demi only gets a 1% accuracy or damage boost from dark strengthening gear. Could we get a buff for that? Also would Demi gun be dark element? If so then Golden Hairpin won't only be used for Silver Bow Archers.

Oracle getting a buff would definitely be out of place. No idea how to buff the absorb spells outside of making them follow the MA*x formula most spells follow. I mean why is it based of the user's max hp? Oracles don't have high HP and even a max HP paladin isn't breaking 150 damage with the spell.

[Barren]

I was thinking that the magic guns get a range of 5. 6 is where people loved using it but 4 makes it (to me anyways) discouraging. By changing the magic guns to 5 range (and stone gun too) it'd be at least tolerable.

[Kurosabes]

MP Regen/MP Poison are close to Angel Song/Witch Hunt in nature (akin to Life Song/Wiznaibus with Regen/Poison). That's where I'd place these new status to start. It's likely that someone using MP Regen will have other buffs (usually Haste), so Dispel Magic and Refute would probably work well to cancel it, as well as Dispel proc weapons and possibly a weapon that procs MP Poison (Mage Masher?). Dealing with MP Poison might be a little trickier but depending on what status it replaces, I believe the AI will assume it's still the old status and try to cancel it. There would most likely be armor or accessories that prevent MP Poison as well (ex: C Bag could be used exclusively for MP Regen/cancel MP Poison and lose its +2 MA). I suggest both to run for 48 CT before they naturally wear off.

For MA UP/Strengthen having a greater influence on Hit% abilities like Demi, I thought of having a change to the hit formula so it's more dependant on MA. Hit_F((MA*Y)+X)%, where Y could be 2 or 3 depending on the ability since some classes have naturally lower MA than others. Of course that would mean the static X value would be significantly reduced for most abilities as well.

Side question: Is Hawk's Eye supposed to bypass Darkness? It's getting a bit irritating trying to counter this ability in test battles.

Edit: Poll result (Slow Dance/Cheer Song)
1. Add: Slow / Add: Haste = 3 votes (50%)
2. Rnd: Slow-Darkness / Rnd: Haste-Transparent = 2 votes (33%)
3. Rnd: Darkness-Innocent / Rnd: Transparent-Faith = 1 vote (17%)

Of course that doesn't mean a lot with these amount of voters, but again it was just for fun and curiosity

[Corosar]

For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA

MP poison sounds weird to me.. honestly i go Manaleak but ehh.. personal opinion.. i am not one to come up with naming conventions... on the subject of that MP-regen in my oppinion would be better Manawell or Manafill? i don't know just throwing MP onto a name does not sound right to me.. then again i like coming up with words

[Gaignun]

The AI is fickle with mp recovery. They'll use carbuncle correctly, but not Ether.

Just to weigh in, the AI sucks at using Carbunkle proactively, too.  It only casts Carbunkle if it has nothing else to do.

I know what you mean by taking steps back, but the fact is if we add MP to Regen, Masamune would become overpowered. Add Masamune to a caster unit (which, incidentally, Draw Out is a great skill set to have on a caster anyway) and what do you have? A caster that doesn't have to worry about MP, who has good magic, possible very strong draw outs, and HP restoration to boot which is instant and has an (admittedly small) AOE.

Yes.  If Regen adds MP regen as well, then I second the motion that Masamune should change.  Of your suggestions, I like Add: Haste + Transparent the most.

No idea how to buff the absorb spells outside of making them follow the MA*x formula most spells follow. I mean why is it based of the user's max hp?

I am fine with this.

MP poison sounds weird to me.. honestly i go Manaleak but ehh.. personal opinion.. i am not one to come up with naming conventions... on the subject of that MP-regen in my oppinion would be better Manawell or Manafill? i don't know just throwing MP onto a name does not sound right to me.. then again i like coming up with words

I think the names we're throwing around right now are temporary.  If they are actually implemented, it is probably best to come up with better names as you say.

[dw6561]

Yes.  If Regen adds MP regen as well, then I second the motion that Masamune should change.  Of your suggestions, I like Add: Haste + Transparent the most.

I like the idea of Haste + Transparent too. This way, Masamune still remains unique compared to the other ways to add haste, and we could have a proactive source of transparent.

Edit: Poll result (Slow Dance/Cheer Song)
1. Add: Slow / Add: Haste = 3 votes (50%)
2. Rnd: Slow-Darkness / Rnd: Haste-Transparent = 2 votes (33%)
3. Rnd: Darkness-Innocent / Rnd: Transparent-Faith = 1 vote (17%)

Of course that doesn't mean a lot with these amount of voters, but again it was just for fun and curiosity

spoiler

I feel lonely. I seemed to have this aversion to haste/slow being inflicted by songs/dances, but I didn't want to see two perfectly good opportunities for a new skill to be thrown in a fire. It might not be so bad though if they are the only statuses inflicted though now that I think about it.

Could we possibly do Rnd: slow-innocent / Rnd: haste-faith? Should have suggested it earlier. If we do just haste/slow, what about putting Faith/Innocent on nameless song/dance?

[Andrew]

It doesn't take much to mess up the AI's way of "thinking".  Keeping the skills simple encourages it to make some relatively-decent plays, especially in regards to CT management.  For the MP Regen it work, it would need to accompany a high-priority status such as Defending or Haste, or be attached to an item or reaction.  As for the MP Poison, it would need to be handled like how Oil is.

I agree with the changes to Dance/Sing, especially since I've been messing around with the former.  Slow Dance and Wiznaibus are pure, unadulterated evil, especially when mimes are mimicking them.  If you need some proof, fight a match against my Episode 2 team.  I really like Cheer Song and Slow Dance adding Haste/Regen and Slow/Poison.

I agree with that 108 Gems buff, but not so much the bags.  If the bags are to grant immunities, I don't think that they should also grant stat buffs, as well.  Making a tanky unit invulnerable to pretty much every negative status would be overpowered.  Like Gaignun said, giving a team the opportunity to have full Crystal immunity is too much, especially if those FS Bag users have Dragon Spirit/Reraise.


EDIT: Also, some things in regards to balancing mimes: I think they should lose access to headbands and the secondary skillset.  The Chakra Band is the cream of the crop, and since it was balanced with the idea that monks were the only ones able to wear it, allowing mimes to use it is pretty cheap.  I know it leaves mimes with relatively-low HP, but then there's the Maximillian.  As for the secondary, I feel that it gives the mimes too many opportunities to turn the tide of the battle for their team, especially if they're using a support skillset like Item or White Magic, or a neutral skillset like Talk Skill or even Draw Out.

[Shintroy]

Mime's secondary options
squire - Partially
Chemist - Fully
Paladin - No
Archer - Mostly
Monk - Fully
Priest - Very limited
Wizard - No
Time Mage - No
Summoner - No
Thief - Partially
Mediator - Fully
Oracle - No
Geomancer - Fully
Lancer - No
samurai - Fully
Ninja - Partially + MP
Scholar - No
Performer - No

There is absolutely no reason to remove mime's ability to equip a secondary. The class is limited enough as is. Terrible stats, no access to weapons, multiple equip bugs, multiple game breaking bugs, can limit other teammates if abilities MP, mimic interupts charging, etc. It's too early to for anyone to consider changing mime as drastically as you're recommending.

..Remove headband access? Why? Mimes used to have an innate ribbon ability up until 139 and Chakra band is no wear near as good as ribbon.

Come on. We can't even count good mime teams on one hand yet. It'll get even worse for mime if SP altering is removed. If anything buff mime to 9 SP so they'll at least be viable if SP altering is removed.

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What about a base 75% dispel and esuna performance ability? The AI will be able to use this correctly.

Just to weigh in, the AI sucks at using Carbunkle proactively, too.  It only casts Carbunkle if it has nothing else to do.

For the AI to use carbunkle proactively, it has to be out of range of it's melee and low MP options. It helps to have a good frontline unit to draw attention away from the caster. It's a spell so it's going to be used before move. If the caster has any threat at all it'll just move in closer for a melee attack instead of using carbunkle and staying put. Having an instant backline unit like Chiri bot, Southern/Grand Cross Archer, or even a ton ninja helps even more. I've been successful with move-1 on a carbuncle/mp restore unit in the past using both a front and backline job.
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