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Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [June 17, 2012, 05:57:33 AM]
Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords [On Hold]
« on: June 17, 2012, 05:57:33 AM »
Focus of the Patch
The focus is going to be around five base classes that each tier off into a more offensive and defensive variant, and each class will wield a primary weapon and 2-3 secondary weapons, where the final skills of said class depend on the primary weapon. This patch will also be using the elements to construct a rock, paper, scissors mentality, using fire, lightning, ice, water, and earth. While Special Classes (such as Agrias and Ramza) will use the holy and dark elements.

Monsters: Have more unique monsters and base them around elements as well. Things like Goblins being based in earth (cannot understand why they were ever weak to ice).
Lower Numbers: This means lower stats, less Gil per battle, while items will be noticeably more expensive.
No Chemist: Instead, use item innate all, but in turn make potions either weaker and/or more expensive.
Squire is now Commoner!: Changing Squire to Commoner (Description: Where everyone starts and no one knows how to do anything. Should probably pick up a sword and choose another job for adventuring!).
Limited / Replaced Special Characters: The removal of some or many of them ... maybe replace Cloud with another special appearance?
More Weapon Selection: Eight weapons per job, giving you a total of anywhere from 24-32 weapons to choose from per class.
Limited R/S/M: Limit how many there are. Like removing Move +3 and such.
Zero charge spells: It'll have to be balanced in such a way that melee classes use more MP per ability to portray the fact that they're melee, but I think this'll be interesting.

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« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:30:35 PM by Lydyn »
Durbs [Posts: 617]
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  • [June 26, 2012, 03:14:16 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 03:14:16 PM »
So each of the classes will be based on a specific element? Hmm. Neat idea.

I would definitely say remove the commoner though. Start with the 5 base classes unlocked and have players work from there.

"Evanescence... what a sad word..." -Agrias Oaks

Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [June 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM »
Well, that's the thing ... I can't remove squire and if I make him one of the five base classes, then special characters like Agrias won't have access to one of the five. I've also been debating between making either two spin-off classes per base class or making two spin-off classes with one being male-only and the other being female-only. The first idea is probably better, but I'm unsure.
Durbs [Posts: 617]
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  • [June 27, 2012, 04:07:49 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 04:07:49 AM »
There's an easy way around this. Early in JotF we discussed how to make multiple base classes, and the easiest way to do it is to set one of them as a class and have all of the other base classes unlocked as well. Though I suppose specials nuke that class.

"Evanescence... what a sad word..." -Agrias Oaks

Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [June 27, 2012, 04:32:10 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 04:32:10 AM »
Yeah, making 5 base classes isn't a problem ... making five base classes that even specials can use is tricky - hence the commoner solution.
Unreliable as a Mime.
The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [July 07, 2012, 09:36:36 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2012, 09:36:36 PM »
(Had meant to in here a while ago as well. Sorry about Shuushin again too.)

Yeah, going with a "Commoner" or "Freelancer" starting class is probably the best, even if it's going to be extremely weak starting out, just because of the way that Squire's position is hardwired to interact with non-generics' job slots.

Of course, in a bit of a Catch-22, what you want to do with Squire's position often depends on what classes you want to be immediately branching from it, so you should probably figure those out first.

Before I suggest anything, there are, like always, a bunch of things I feel I need to ask:


1. When it comes to weapon-focus, do you want there to be overlap allowed? I ask partly because there's currently space for 18 different weapon types, 19 if you count barefists, so you can already get rid of 3 types and still have enough separate for 15 classes besides Commoner. I also ask partly because you might want to branches only to focus on the weapon(s) of the original instead/as well.

2. Similarly, when it comes to element focus, do you want the elemental division to be hard and fast? Or just for that particular element to be what that particular line focuses on for the most part while allowing them some other elemental use or just non-elemental use? I ask because having focused on elements a lot for Embargo, it's easy to see that it's rather important for elemental diversity to be had, not just within classes, but the game in general, while at the same time not making everything so dependent on being elemental. Otherwise it's likely to lead to situations where (magickal) classes can only physically attack the enemy if that or, even worse, all sides end up stalemating because they can't get past absorptions.

3. What exactly do you mean by "unique" monsters?


There's pretty much it for now, I guess. I might have some ideas, but I'll need to think about it for awhile, especially since I've never played with D&D despite looking it up a bit.


P.S. Goblins were possibly made weak to ice because they're generally associated with fire in standard mythology IIRC. It could have been for some other reason though given, well, Japan's differences. It also doesn't really explain why so other many things were weak to Ice (or Fire) as much as I like the element (and feel it shouldn't necessarily be automatically folded into Water).

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 01:12:24 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 01:12:24 AM »
Right, the idea was to branch the five basic classes out from squire and then two from there, though I'm going to spend sometime writing it all out on paper regardless to see where I really want to go with all of this. ^^ As for the weapons ... I was thinking of some overlapping, though their would be a primary weapon for each class I think. As in, like each class gets 8 skills (just for example), and 3/8 of them require the primary weapon of the class, but the other three can be used as is.

As for the elements, I didn't plan on putting absorb on any classes, but halve [insert element] instead so nothing is entirely useless, but it'll follow a rock, paper, scissors pattern. Surprised I didn't put it. It'd probably go something like so; Water > Fire > Ice > Earth > Lighting > Water. I'm thinking of leaving wind out since I can't make sense of where it'd go anyways. Water puts out fire, fire melts ice, ice freezes earth, earth grounds lighting, and lighting shocks water.

Probably meaning a limited about of them, change names, stuff like that. It's not fully fleshed out yet. I need to make the classes first, but with limited feedback, it's always hard for me to just come up with something out of the blue. =P
Desocupado [Posts: 83]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 01:52:30 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 01:52:30 AM »
5 Rock paper scissors means 2 resistances and 2 weakness (immunity to self elemental would make sense tough, tough not required)

How about this:
Earth Lightning  <-- Ice --> Water Fire
Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 02:05:18 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 02:05:18 AM »
... I don't understand what you mean by two resistances and two weakness. It'd pan out like so;

• Water Class: Halve Fire, Weak Lightning
• Fire Class: Halve Ice, Weak Water
• Ice Class: Halve Earth, Weak Fire
• Earth Class: Halve Lightning, Weak Ice
• Lightning Class: Halve Water, Weak Earth
Neophyte Ronin [Posts: 144]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 03:47:15 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 03:47:15 AM »
Arrange them in a star and pick a direction the arrow goes, often through each one.  Then go in a clockwise pattern to form a pentagon.  Depending on the location of each element, and where their arrows go, that's your corresponding resistance and weakness.  If you did it like what Desocupado suggests, that means the adjacent ones are either resisted or weakened, and vice versa for the ones on the opposite end.

Boiling it all down to a limited subset of Classes isn't necessarily a foreign trend for Tactics.  There were innumerable encounters with Knights and Archers taking up a large number of the fights.  Big, big emphasis.  Seeing but Five Classes wouldn't necessarily be new to players of the Vanilla editions.  Either way, I'm game.  It would make for a nice, simple game that would also allow for shorter scenarios and thus easier to create.  Good thinking.
Quman [Posts: 34]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 04:24:49 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 04:24:49 AM »
Okay, I guess somebody should post some class ideas. I'll throw out some basic ones and hopefully people will suggest better alternatives.

Warrior - Wields a sword and focuses on the ice element. A melee unit with lots of HP, ideal for tanking. Abilities focus on slowing down enemy units or boosting self.

Samurai - Wields a katana and focuses on the fire element. A melee unit with lots of physical attack power. Abilities focus on negating/bypassing enemy defenses and inflicting heavy damage.

Thief - Wields a dagger and focuses on the wind element. A melee unit with lots of speed. Has a versatile move set that includes both offensive and supportive abilities, though not as good as any of the others.

Scholar - Wields a book and focuses on the lightning element. A ranged unit with lots of magical attack power. Abilities focus on damage and may include weak attack abilities of some other elements or status effects such as poison, instant death, stop or petrify.

Bard - Wields a harp and focuses on the water element. A ranged unit with lots of MP. Abilities focus on healing and buffing allies.

Alternatively, the warrior could become earth elemental, leaving room for the magician to be ice elemental and the thief to be lightning elemental.
Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 04:34:28 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 04:34:28 AM »
Those class ideas help a lot, since I was at bit of a mental block on how to construct it all. I do want to clarify something though ... and I know this is in the original post; there are five base classes, but ten advanced classes as well - each base class having two classes you can branch off to. The basic classes are a great start though and give me some ideas. Thanks! =D I'll let you know what I come up with in reaction to those.
Desocupado [Posts: 83]
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  • [July 08, 2012, 04:36:02 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 04:36:02 AM »
This:
Earth Lightning  <-- Ice --> Water Fire
• Water Class: Halve Fire and Earth / Weak: Lightning and Ice
• Fire Class: Halve Earth and Lightning / Weak: Water and Ice
and so on.. 
Like Rock Scissors Paper with more than 3 elements: (look at yellow and green - there are two wrong arrows connecting to red circle)


Just one strength and weakness makes neutral damage too common.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 04:48:32 AM by Desocupado »
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  • Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 04:45:41 AM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 04:45:41 AM »
    Oh, duh, of course ... it'd halve itself too. xD Haha. Which color is supposed to be which element though? Though I like the two resistances better, myself ... means only 3/5 classes can do decent damage and 1/5 classes do maximum damage. Chances are, I'll design weapons like this too ... I was thinking that each class will have three options, two secondary weapons (which allows them to use 80% of their skillset) and a primary weapon (which allows them to use 100% of their skillset). The primary would match with their element, of course and the secondaries would be shared with the other two classes that are 'neutral' to that element.
    Desocupado [Posts: 83]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 04:48:40 AM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 04:48:40 AM »
    Another option is: 1 vulnerability and two resistances (itself and the "prey" elemental)
    • Water Class: Halve Fire Water / Weak: Ice
    • Fire Class: Halve Earth and Fire / Weak: Water

    Elemental wheel: Earth -> Lightning-> Ice-> Water-> Fire-> Earth

    Using this system, a higher tier class could get a secondary elemental - adjacent to it in the elemental wheel for simplicity:
    Water+Ice: Halves Ice Water Fire / Weak to Lightning / Neutral to Earth
    Water+Fire: Halves Water Fire Earth / Weak to Ice / Neutral to Lightning

    (purple to red and red to blue arrows are inverted in this image)
    Quman [Posts: 34]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 06:08:11 AM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 06:08:11 AM »
    Those class ideas help a lot, since I was at bit of a mental block on how to construct it all. I do want to clarify something though ... and I know this is in the original post; there are five base classes, but ten advanced classes as well - each base class having two classes you can branch off to. The basic classes are a great start though and give me some ideas. Thanks! =D I'll let you know what I come up with in reaction to those.

    I was aware of that, but my main goal was just to get the ball rolling. If you really want the other 10 classes, here are some off the top of my head. The warrior upgrades into a knight (knight sword, light) and gladiator (axe, dark). the Samurai upgrades into a warrior monk (pole, light) and ninja (ninjato, dark). The Thief upgrades into a ranger (bow, light) and assassin (crossbow, dark). The scholar upgrades into engineer (gun, light) and magus (rod, dark). The bard upgrades into a sage (staff, light) and enhanter (flail, dark).
    Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 07:33:16 PM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #16 on: July 08, 2012, 07:33:16 PM »
    See original post for the table concerning classes.

    « Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 02:16:36 AM by Lydyn »
    Neophyte Ronin [Posts: 144]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 09:26:29 PM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 09:26:29 PM »
    If you're having trouble determining the Power and Magic ratings and you're going to use Level-Ups to determine growth, why not use standardized stat growths across all the classes and then change the stat divisors of each Class?  If you've tried Tactics Plus, that's a good example of standardized stat growths at work.  The rankings would just ensure the divisors themselves are standardized as well.
    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 09:31:47 PM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 09:31:47 PM »
    And remember, different growths will encourage min-maxing strategies

    "Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"
    Lydyn [Posts: 1100]
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    • [July 08, 2012, 10:15:47 PM]
    Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Crossed Swords
    « Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 10:15:47 PM »
    You're talking about standar growths, but different multipliers? Yeah I was thinking the same thing... As for the PA & MA, I guess it depends on how long I want fights to be.
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