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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 02:03:22 PM]
Introducing - Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign.

What is this?  

This is my other, once secret, "serious" project that is being developed in parallel to the (in)famous Final Fantasy Tactics - Special Power Rangers Edition. In fact, these two projects will be sharing the same basic game engine for a number of reasons I won't get into here.  Originally, this post was never to come until a full, four-Chapter demo was ready to be released, but recent steps in Assembly knowledge combined with the aforementioned infamous project have all but assured this will be completed, so I have no problems with announcing this project relatively early.

(Don't think that because I call this "serious" that Power Rangers won't be amazing as fuck.  Ohhh, I have plans for that which will break almost everyone's expectations, I'm quite sure...)

What will this project feature?  What's so "Redesign"ed about it?

...Pretty much everything, honestly. I'll give a quick notation of each new mechanic below.  It should be noted that this patch seeks for a large amount of "fair" difficulty - it may be gruelingly hard sometimes, but this will be achieved with as few instances of the AI having special gifts as possible.  It also seeks for balance, removing as many exploits as possible and rebalancing all classes and the game's entire scaling and damage curve.





I'm not sure when you can expect a demo on this.  Once FDC's Formula Hack is complete, assembling most of this project will be trivial outside of text and ENTD editing as most of the design-level work is already done, though finishing a playable version of the Power Rangers mod will likely come first.  Them sharing the same basic engine though will make finishing both projects easy once the basic ability and text changes are complete.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 05:55:18 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 05:55:18 PM »
About time you got on this. [/hypocrisy]

I guess this means that of the four people who already knew doing hacks that I was looking forward to between FDC, philsov, Eternal and you, I now know the basic gist of all them. That's good since it will enable me to not step on anyone's toes, though I haven't been planning to do such radical program-based overhauls at present anyway. (I may well "borrow" the non-Mage naming scheme, though, if only because "Dimensionalist" is a really awesome name.)

All of these changes look rather interesting, especially the Elements one and the Support one alongside the FFV treatment of "those" classes. The Reaction one worries me a bit, but I'm just that means that you're forced to remove more than just the obviously broken reactions and get rid of stuff like Damage Split, Dragon Spirit and HP Restore as well. (I mean, those triggering 100 of the time would be...obnoxious to say the least.)

Capping at Level 50 also seems like a decent enough idea.

Not sure how I feel about monsters not being poachable, though.

Regardless, I look forward to this as I always have. I've no idea for new jobs that would fit generics well at present. I'm noticing that you got rid of Mediator, though. I'm guessing you felt it was too weak?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
Cheetah [Posts: 3654]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 06:05:10 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 06:05:10 PM »
Very interesting project Raven, I look forward to how these different mechanics will work.

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 06:47:04 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 06:47:04 PM »
About time you got on this. [/hypocrisy]

I've been on this, I was just originally waiting until I had a 4 chapter demo to post.  With the Power Rangers mod using the same engine though, I basically guarantee enough of the work on this mod gets done that taking the next step to at least output a basic gameplay mod is easy, so I decided to just post since the fear of being unable to deliver some form of gameplay basically disapparated.

(I may well "borrow" the non-Mage naming scheme, though, if only because "Dimensionalist" is a really awesome name.)

If you want it, use it.  I don't care if you step on my toes, I've already technically gifted a few of these ideas to other patches like ASM'd (monsters with full skillsets, for example) instead of selfishly keeping those discoveries to myself, so it's honestly not like I care if mechanics get shared.  FDC and I for example are likely sharing a lot of things in some areas, like Support Abilities and that entire change surrounding them... but everything else about our mods is so different it's basically irrelevant.

The Reaction one worries me a bit, but I'm just that means that you're forced to remove more than just the obviously broken reactions and get rid of stuff like Damage Split, Dragon Spirit and HP Restore as well.

Damage Split and HP Restore are currently enemy only.  Dragon Spirit is staying.  On one hand it can get annoying... but several classes can easily disassemble sandbagging, which is why all the proper revival skills will heal 25+% HP.  If you try to sandbag with paper units or with Phoenix Down / Reraise, it's easy just for someone to cast a Titan and ruin your day.  (I should have noted it, but the Summon command is casted instantly, so... yeah.  It's the perfect anti-sangbagging set most of the time.)

Not sure how I feel about monsters not being poachable, though.

It's one third because the workaround for full skillsets requires it, one third because I want to eat Secret Hunt and make a new skill with it, and one third because Poaching has always been a soft-exploit - either not really worth the effort of doing, or an easy way of getting a couple rare Items and owning sections of Chapter 3 and sometimes early Chapter 4 without really even "grinding."  One of my big things was to remove expoits.  This AI is meant to be out to kill you and use your eviscerated organs to line its Ajoramas Tree and you're forced to mostly take the bull by the horns here.

Regardless, I look forward to this as I always have. I've no idea for new jobs that would fit generics well at present. I'm noticing that you got rid of Mediator, though. I'm guessing you felt it was too weak?

I killed Mediator because when I was done designing, Squire and Mediator were both essentially low-mid end classes focused on buffing skills with a couple misc skills (Squire had Dash, Throw Stone, and something else, Mediator had Mimic Daravon and a couple piecemeal things.)  So I did the obvious thing, went "fuck it", threw the concepts at each other, merged them into what I thought would be the most attention-worthy class, and called it "Squire" because I felt it was more worthwhile as a starting class than one halfway down the Job Wheel.  I could've went with 1.3 Mediator, but that's stepping pretty hard on Oracle's territory, so I scrapped that idea too.  Part of the reason Bard was scrapped is similar to that - it was a buff class, I originally merged it with Mediator, and now that hellish hybrid got merged with Squire for a hydra job monster that somehow only has 7 skills yet is still awesome.  Dancer's out mostly because there are at least 3 other classes that focus on various kinds of debuffing as their primary feature in some distinct way, and cutting it let me remove the male/female Job schism that always made no sense to me.

Very interesting project Raven, I look forward to how these different mechanics will work.

So do I.  I keep track of a lot of the numbers, so I'm not worried about damage stacks being broken... but there's a lot of cool new combos here I think people will be able to enjoy exploring and be rewarded for, like the one I mentioned on Ninja.  (Katanas are normally Two-Hands Only weapons with some of the highest WP in the game and powerful positive traits, but Monkeygrip lets it be held with one hand and they can technically be Two Sworded... but the only classes with Two Swords are Ninja and Thief, so yeah.  There's lots of cool combos like this built in if you look hard enough.)
Desocupado [Posts: 83]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 06:49:10 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 06:49:10 PM »
Sounds pretty interesting.
Good luck with it.
Lucifer_zero [Posts: 76]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 06:53:45 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 06:53:45 PM »
One more hack to expect for. ^^

Hey... why don´t you make one "red mage" class ( hahahaha, okay, baaaad bad joke ) ?


Now seriosly, liked the way jobs are, but still, only one thing i miss is one job that is gun user ( i mean, one focused on it ), on true, i think one that is specialized on fire power, like reworking shurikens and ball into something like bombs and grenade, and making skill that are with no reaction, WP-damage, and another that have long range, real long ( and make guns have less range )...

Edit, on true i was thinking of one long range class with no magical attack and something that ignore evasions, reactions and can have more range ( not only horizantal, but vertical to ) as for what you said about Archers, they should be weapon range, correct ?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 07:04:19 PM by Lucifer_zero »
My english sucks... and i know this.

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 07:14:13 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 07:14:13 PM »
Hey... why don´t you make one "red mage" class ( hahahaha, okay, baaaad bad joke ) ?

Yeah, answer's no there, but not for the reason you think.

Now seriosly, liked the way jobs are, but still, only one thing i miss is one job that is gun user ( i mean, one focused on it ), on true, i think one that is specialized on fire power, like reworking shurikens and ball into something like bombs and grenade, and making skill that are 100% hit with no reaction, WP-damage, and another that have long range, real long ( and make guns have less range )...

A Gun user will probably be within the 3 new Jobs, since FFT really didn't have one either as a generic unit, though canonically there's a pretty good reason for that.  Guns I've already got almost entirely planned out, so I can easily design a class to make use of my various Guns.

Throw exists as a Support command, so there's no reason to rework Shuriken and Ball... plus that would mean this class would need more than one skillset for a primary to work correctly.  I can still make bombs though as long as I remove the ammo concept from them, Rangers use a bomb for several of their skills after all. 

I'll figure something out in regard to pewpewpew masters.

Edit, on true i was thinking of one long range class with no magical attack and something that ignore evasions, reactions and can have more range ( not only horizantal, but vertical to ) as for what you said about Archers, they should be weapon range, correct ?

Most Archer skills are Weapon Ranged, yes.  I can make skills that ignore Evasion and Reactions entirely.  The Ranger already has one, actually.  Making a class like you'd want would be very tricky though, as the only thing that would work for what you said there is basically something akin to really long range Swordskills without the Requires Sword flag on... something I'm not really looking to do.  A lot of my skills are intentionally Weapon Range - if you want that range off the primary classes, the Marksman ability exists to allow you to use Bows, Crossbows, or Guns on any class, and they're all buffed enough to actually be worth doing that with due to low move making range actually worth a damn beyond the first two turns or so.
Lucifer_zero [Posts: 76]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 07:29:17 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 07:29:17 PM »
Hum, okay, i´ve said about the Shuriken and ball cuz you didn´t mentioned about it, that makes me think that you did discarded throw.

And when i said about no reaction, evasion and range was diferent skills, one for each, not one that have the three.


Ps. thinking better, a generic unit that focus on gun don´t fit the FFT universe, as gun are news for most of Ivalice, lame on me for suggest one...

My english sucks... and i know this.

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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 07:40:21 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 07:40:21 PM »
Hum, okay, i´ve said about the Shuriken and ball cuz you didn´t mentioned about it, that makes me think that you did discarded throw.

Nope.  The old Charge skillset will with all luck be built directly into the Attack command along with a Defend command and possibly one or two other basic actions.

Item, Geomancy, Jump, Throw, Draw Out will all be Support Abilities that allow you access to the proper skillset and give you a second soft bonus.  Tentatively those are 3 range Item toss, Boost: some Elements, Jump +1, Mod Item Range to Throw Range, and MA > PA on 01 attacks, respectively.

Sorry for the confusion there.

And when i said about no reaction, evasion and range was diferent skills, one for each, not one that have the three.

Ah, okay.  Most skills here are somewhat powerful though, so something like No Reaction and No Evasion really does need to be combined to be worth it unless you make it also do full Weapon Damage.

Ps. thinking better, a generic unit that focus on gun don´t fit the FFT universe, as gun are news for most of Ivalice, lame on me for suggest one...

Yep.  That's part of why I was avoiding a hardcore Shooter class.  It's not like FFTA, these fuckers are literally digging Guns out of mountain cycles and hoping they eventually get deep enough to start digging out Mobile Suits.  And if anyone gets that joke in its entirety, I don't know what to say.

But yeah, it's likely at least one of the new classes will be able to use a Gun and possibly have some decent synergy with the various Guns I have planned, though the class likely won't be an actual Shooter class.
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Pickle Girl Fanboy [Posts: 1482]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 08:14:23 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 08:14:23 PM »
Will you fix Unequipabble Support Ability Syndrome?  Our Chemists, Monks, Mediators, and Ninjas need your help, as do every other class you'll give inherent supports to, so they won't waste a support slot with an ability they already have.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 08:21:36 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 08:21:36 PM »
Will you fix Unequipabble Support Ability Syndrome?  Our Chemists, Monks, Mediators, and Ninjas need your help, as do every other class you'll give inherent supports to, so they won't waste a support slot with an ability they already have.

Well, Chemist sortof died in a tragic accident.  So did Mediators.

The others, if I can, sure.  It's not something I've looked into or asked around about yet though.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 09:49:04 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 09:49:04 PM »
That'll help.

Thanks.  It's still rather low priority, but it's something I'll put on my to do list for this mod definitely since it does help keep the AI less dumb and makes things more cosmetically consistent.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 10:50:01 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 10:50:01 PM »
Speaking of AI stupidity, does your incorporating the Defend command into the Attack command "magically" make the AI not whore it like idiots? I ask because partly because that overuse has always been a problem (at least with regards to the CT). I also ask partly because it's pretty obvious that any pretty much every patch would benefit from intelligent use of options by AI, regardless of the overall design.

As for the poaching thing, I suppose I see your point and I certainly refute it given that I haven't focused on poachable stuff myself, though I've a general idea. I did forget about the whole "job wheel makes monsters immune to poach".

Yep.  That's part of why I was avoiding a hardcore Shooter class.  It's not like FFTA, these fuckers are literally digging Guns out of mountain cycles and hoping they eventually get deep enough to start digging out Mobile Suits.  And if anyone gets that joke in its entirety, I don't know what to say.

That they're horrible people who watch too much Gundam?

*probably does not get the joke because he doesn't watch Gundam*

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 10:56:30 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 10:56:30 PM »
The Defend issue is solved by making CT always return to 0 at the end of your turn regardless of the actions over the course of your turn.  (Moving only, Acting only, Moving and Acting, and neither Moving nor Acting all now reset your CT to 0, meaning the AI cannot mismanage its CT.)

You're a horrible person who doesn't watch enough Gundam.

Either that or you saw Gundam SEED, in which case I support your fear but encourage you to try an older entry.  G Gundam is hilarious and any of the original timeline are good from a drama perspective, especially Zeta Gundam.  I'm specifically referencing an odd fact about the universe of Turn A Gundam.
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The Damned [Posts: 2168]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 11:18:10 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 11:18:10 PM »
Oh, I thought as much given what I remember seeing you suggest about a week ago. I don't entirely agree with that, but I certainly see why you're using and it is rather superior to the current scheme of things when it comes to AI limitations.

Also, I never saw Gundam SEED or, at least, that much of it. What little I saw of it I didn't like. G Gundam is the only one I've seen a lot of besides that one with Deathscythe and that irksome bitch Relena Peacecraft or whatever; the former was a bit too campy but decent enough I guess and I rather enjoyed the latter outside of said character. I've been meaning to watch Turn A Gundam, but I've been meaning to watch a lot of things and I'm sidetracking the thread, so I'll shut up.

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 11:30:18 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 11:30:18 PM »
I rather like it even without the AI problem, honestly.  It makes you decide whether you want to move somewhere because that place is the strategically best place to position your character, which can be pretty damn hard to do with lower Movement scores.  CT manipulation to me has always sortof felt like a means of cheating the system, get a slow character in place then suddenly he's one or two Speed Points faster because he's essentially camping, what?  You can argue that CT manipulation is a sometimes difficult strategy in itself and that removing leads to simplifying an aspect of the game... which it does.  But this is offset by a more equal footing against the AI and other changes that complexify other aspects of the game.

As for Gundam... let's leave it at SEED = SHIT.  ^_^
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  • [February 22, 2011, 11:32:59 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 11:32:59 PM »
The Defend issue is solved by making CT always return to 0 at the end of your turn regardless of the actions over the course of your turn.  (Moving only, Acting only, Moving and Acting, and neither Moving nor Acting all now reset your CT to 0, meaning the AI cannot mismanage its CT.)

I like it, but I know I shouldn't, because removing functionality because SE can't write AI sucks balls.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 22, 2011, 11:58:36 PM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 11:58:36 PM »
Haha, yeah.

But like I said above, I'm unsure of the concept to begin with, so I like this fix because it fixes the AI in a direct and simple way while also settling the problem of whether I want that concept to remain or not at the same time.
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RavenOfRazgriz [Posts: 3027]
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  • [February 24, 2011, 12:59:50 AM]
Re: Final Fantasy Tactics: Redesign
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 12:59:50 AM »
Updated the opening post.  It contains a fully-fleshed breakdown of the current draft Squire class for everything except JP costs, adds the not Moving/not Acting doesn't grant bonus CT change to the ChangeLog, adds a basic overview of Weapons, and splits things up a bit better.
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