The idea was inspired by my looking at sprites in the sprite section and seeing other final fantasy characters with sprites for FFT (So I drew Cyan's portrait fft style from ff6).
Basic Idea: You can't buy new recruits, and you don't get any generics at the beginning of the game. Invitation would also be removed.
Instead, you'd get many more named characters throughout the game (Enough to fill your party roster completely). Possibly, you can't crystal, like in other FFs - you only lose if your whole party is KO'ed. Those characters could be new unique characters, or more like Dissidia, drawing characters from other FF Games (Or one FF Game), and working them into the plot of FFT.
Each character would have a new sprite and and their own skillset. (Those skillsets could share some skills, but each character should have at least 2 unique ones).
The new characters would need to have positions they could be inserted in the game to gain them, and preferably a bit of dialogue.
I just thought I'd mention the idea I had, since it seemed like a cool idea in my head, and see what people thought.
Has anyone attempted anything like this before?
I'm sure people have attempted it before; it's almost inevitable that someone has.
No one has completed it before, though, which is the more important thing.
Just look through the locked Patch Proposals/Ideas thread if you haven't already because I'm pretty sure it turns up at least a half dozen times if not more.
What?! No Generics?? Its the antithesis of my patch!
No, seriously though. The archives must be full of this idea repeated by a dozen people and no one ever actually does it because no one seems to want it badly enough. That said, if it got made it would certainly get played. The problem there is very few people seem to have the motivation to see a project to its completion. :(
In CoP, the generics actually get animated after a match. You can't do much with them anyway... Good luck with the patch, but you have many many limitations in unique skillsets and names/sprites.
I would quote celdia last phrase a thousand times.
I love seeing other characters getting used in FFT, but like mentioned earlier, people who are doing such patches very soon give up on it. You can be sure I will play it though, so you have my support.
I like the no crystal/treasure. That way, the enemy has to kill your entire party to win, not just force you to reset when they kill your uber-generics.
Hmm. okay;
I was wondering why I didn't see a patch like this anywhere.
I may just attempt this; if for no reason other than I think it would be more fun to play FFT that way. I see this as something that would be largely a spriting project. It basically means spriting out 16 or so characters, and then working them into the game.
- Making a job/ability set for them with at least as much of a departure from squire as Ramza has.
- Changing event dialogue to include these new characters/find a place in the plot to add them to the party.
- Possibly giving the new characters dialogue in the cutscenes afterward if they're in your party.
It would be a fair amount of work; but would have a cool result. I intend to sprite out special characters for fun, and I suppose as I finish whole character's I'll probably add them into my own game to use them; and if/when it gets to the point that I've sprited enough to make this mod, I'll see about revisiting it. The new event editor that's coming out soon would be a huge help for this sort of project.
Well, good luck on this if you do indeed decide to do it.
I honestly don't know how I feel about doing away with both Crystal AND Treasure though. I can understand doing away with one of them--more likely Treasure for most people, though I could see the value of getting rid of Crystal (since I've been considering it myself). However, getting rid of both just seems like it invites even more sandbagging, especially since you seem to have at least some interest in giving Item to every character innately. In that case, it seems like you'd either have to get rid of Phoenix Down completely, make it piss-poor recovery (even worse than it is now likely), make it as rare as Elixir (though the AI would still be able to spam it) or get rid of Throw Item/reduce Throw Item range to 1.
Again, good luck.
If I got rid of crystal/treasure:
- It would only be on player characters. - this might take some doing... Unless someone has another way to do it it sounds like an asm hack that involves cycling through everyone on the map with a number lower than the max character number; then adding the immunity to them. And setting it up so that this subroutine runs every time combat starts.
- I'd likely raise the cost of phoenix downs.
- Throw range of 2 or 3 would be okay if you took the slot to equip throw item.
If I gave everyone Item mastered innately:
- You wouldn't get throw item innately - if you want that you still have to equip it.
- I'd probably want to put a cap on the number of times a given item can be used by a given character; if at all possible (say 10 per character per fight).
- I'd want to make sure the AI can still use item once I drop chemist and dont have item as a secondary equip option.
But as I said; the first part would be coming up with sprites for enough new characters to make it worth the effort.
Thanks though. :)
Just make the item cap 10.
Raising the cost of Phoenix Down (if you still allow them to still be able to be purchased) doesn't really solve much. It just encourages or maybe even forces people to grind to buy enough of them until they have enough to act as a buffer.
Personally, I feel like getting rid of both Crystal and Treasure for all player characters (though I don't know how you can do that without affecting generics unless you just get rid of the job tree entirely which is a...larger problem) just eliminates strategy. I can understand getting rid of one or the other, but getting rid of both seems like it's going to be rather difficult to balance. So....
Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on March 28, 2011, 05:40:26 pm
Just make the item cap 10.
If you're talking about Razele's hack that says it can do so, that one apparently has problems like a couple of his do.
I was talking of just make his own, but okay. So, I take it heroes can't just "knock out" like Algus and Delita?
That's what I was proposing; but I'm pretty sure I have to set that in each battle; and I'd have to pre-pick who would be in the fight to do that; so I'd need to find another way to do it.
The idea being that you can't permanently lose your party members; you just game over. I suppose you could allow people to lose party members; but thats harder on the player when they can't recruit anyone new except as the plot gives them characters. I realized that what I'm trying to do is hybrid some playstyle from pre-ff8 games into fft.
- Fixed cast of say; like 20 characters who are all worked into the story (counting existing fft characters you can get permanently).
- All characters can use items (and have item mastered), but they don't get throw item unless they buy it and equip it. (The remainder of chemist abilities get pushed onto other classes). Give them equip change as well (sure, why not - I'd had equip change be more useful than another support ability once in all the time I've had the game, to grab a new sword when a knight broke mine).
- All classes made into viable character options. (Either take the class rebalancing from 1.3 or FFT Rebirth as a ase, maybe a few tweaks).
One problem with using items in other skillsets, it won't work. Item is a special command type like math skill, jump, throw item, etc.
Using Items in other skillsets? Why would I do that?
No; I'm talking about the Assembly hack that adds item to the menu all the time. I'd use the regular skillset; I just want everyone to start out with it mastered (another Assembly hack); and if I decide to use the chemist slot for a new job; make the chemist use a different skillset slot, and grant that as the secondary ability instead of item.
I'm not talking about putting the items in other skillsets; I'm talking about giving everyone access to item as a tertiary skillset that starts out mastered; and doing away with chemists, and adding auto-potion, equip change, maintenance, move find item, and throw item to other skillset lists. (Meaning all starting characters would be 'squires', and White Mage and Black Mage require squire levels; etc.)
The fact that you have to be a chemist to use items, and that you have to "Learn" items is something that's always annoyed me about tactics though. In every other RPG/Turn based strategy game I've played, anyone can use any items they have - and it's just always bugged me that they actually made it a skillset in FFT.
i think what chemist should be an alchemist. combining items like Rikku in FFX or creating better versions of items kinda like FF8.
this way everyone can use items that can be acquired through the usual way, but only the chemist (alchemist) can utilize the more complex items.
just thinking of how this could be done... maybe a simple version is just take a few items out of the common list, but make another list just available to the chemist.
As previously stated, I think doing away with crystalizing and boxalizing would really mess up balance and strategy. Half the strategy of fft is making sure you have the ability to revive people. I don't know if it's possible or if it's what you're looking for, but maybe you could just change the crystal timer thing to be 5 turns instead of 3?
Quote from: Darkholme on March 29, 2011, 04:10:49 pm
(The remainder of chemist abilities get pushed onto other classes).
This was the phrase i was focusing on and i assumed you meant the item abilities, not R/S/M. My bad for misunderstanding you.
Why not make the slot Mage Apprentice? It certainly makes more sense...
QuoteWhy not make the slot Mage Apprentice? It certainly makes more sense...
that actually makes so much sense i never thought of that :P It's essentially the squire for mages.
That's an awesome idea; but what would you give it without ripping the abilities out of the other mages?
Quote from: Darkholme on March 31, 2011, 04:15:47 am
what would you give it without ripping the abilities out of the other mages?
You really can't, but the solution is simple. The base spells (cure, fire, ice, protect, etc) go to the first mage class (which I think should be a red mage), and the more specialized spells (eg Fire2/Fira, Protect2/Protectga) go to their corresponding next class up.
I was thinking giving the Apprentice non-elemental magic, like magic missile and mana bolt.
I wouldn't want to rip fire 1 out of bmage or cure 1 out of white mage; and I wouldn't want to have the abilities listed twice.
I like the idea of the non-elemental spells. So you're basically suggesting low level D&D wizard inspiration? Here are my possible suggestions for that route. It could really work.
- Magic Missile (Low Damage, Never Misses)
- Arcane Bolt (Higher Damage, has a miss chance)
- Daze: 1-turn Don't Act. (Can we do that? Or does Don't Act always have the same duration regardless of which ability triggers it?)
- Flare: 1-turn Don't Move. (Or 1 turn Blind, but blind does virtually nothing in FFT).\
- Grease: Inflicts Oil (Short Term?).
- Color Spray: Blind, Don't Move, Don't Act (random choice).
The question is do we want it balanced against the base squire? Or balanced like in 1.3 where all classes are more balanced with eachother? (I'm all for the 2nd option, but its definitely something that needs to be decided.)
Balanced against squire. Let's face it, who the f*ck uses squire abilities beyond monster skill or ramza's set?
shit i rarely use ramza's set. i gave him lightning stab to make him interesting.
Arent squires de-crappified in 1.3? (I havent played it much beyond the first fight).
Is there much point in even adding an Apprentice class if we're intentionally designing it to be something nobody will use? People used to use chemists. Squire gets replaced by special characters; but this class won't
And if I'm/we're doing a "No love for Generics" mod (portrait # 2 of 14 done now btw. (http://"http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6936") ;)) Then every character will have more stuff than base squire moves. Though I'm contemplating giving all of them Accumulate, Maybe Heal, too.
A) Yeah, but that means you need to buff squire, archer, and debuff calculator, and now you're just doing a rebalancing mod like everybody else.
B) Don't give them either, that'd be just messed up rigged :\
A) Well; not quite. I'm not just talking about a rebalancing mod. I was saying it depends what you're taking as your base:
i) If you're taking the rebalance mod as a starting point (1.3 Easytype, FFT Rebirth, Etc), then You want one that doesn't suck.
ii) If you're taking vanilla as the starting point, then I'd argue if you think it should be as crappy as squire it's not worth attempting - I'd say being as good as chemists with item were should be the balance point if it's to be attempted at all in that case.
If you want to be able to handle both scenarios, Give them a good selection of abilities for vanilla, and just give them crappy-ish damage or to-hit rates. then if you are to add them to a rebalance mod, buff the numbers. It's no secret that a few of the jobs have either shit skillsets or shit growths.
B)
i) Ramza gets them, and he's not that great.
ii) You wouldnt be balancing them against generic squires; because you'd never get generic squires.
iii) It would make Mustadio's skillset suck less if he had those two things; Though maybe the stronger named characters don't need the boost.
Alot of the named characters are basically the same class with one or two unique abilities. Delita 2 (cant remember what 3 gets), Gafgarian, Agrias, Orlandeau, and a few others.
Yes, Mustadio could definitely use a buff.
Also, I agree that it wouldn't be wise to try to balance it against Squire (at least the other Squires that people have done) even if Squire were still in just because physical classes have different needs than magical classes.
Quote from: Darkholme on March 31, 2011, 05:36:43 pmI like the idea of the non-elemental spells. So you're basically suggesting low level D&D wizard inspiration? Here are my possible suggestions for that route. It could really work.
- Magic Missile (Low Damage, Never Misses)
- Arcane Bolt (Higher Damage, has a miss chance)
- Daze: 1-turn Don't Act. (Can we do that? Or does Don't Act always have the same duration regardless of which ability triggers it?)
- Flare: 1-turn Don't Move. (Or 1 turn Blind, but blind does virtually nothing in FFT).\
- Grease: Inflicts Oil (Short Term?).
- Color Spray: Blind, Don't Move, Don't Act (random choice).
Despite not having ever played it, D&D seems like a decent enough inspiration. To answer your questions with regards to abilities, Don't Act would always have the same duration, there's a Blind hack by FFMaster to make Blind a static accuracy drop rather than dependent on evasion and Oil currently can't take a duration.
Just give mustadio headshot for instant kill and he'll be buffed plenty XD
Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on April 02, 2011, 07:28:31 pm
Just give mustadio headshot for instant kill and he'll be buffed plenty XD
oic what you did there. lol.