• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 

FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Barren

Sometimes I almost wish that only females can equip ribbons like in vanilla for arena. but that would be OP because you can then come up with uber defense setups for females like a female paladin with white magic, damage split, unyielding, move-mp up or whatever. Just my train of thought while anticipating 1.38
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Shade

I am declaring Murasame broken (the skill).

Reason are actually very simple.

Instant, better Y value then moogle, not based on fury or faith, AOE of 2.

Doesn't help that masamune still exist and in lesser extend, but it will still make murasame even more broken. Even if it's a single target.

Also I noticed during tourney that draw outs were really powerful. instant 150 damage in AOE of 2 hurts, especially when fury or faith don't effect it at all. Also notice how top teams in the tournament had draw out expect for FDC (I salute you for making farther then I my friend). It's not a suprise that draw out was efficient, it is pretty easy determine that the consistency of the draw out was killing other team left and right. and a lot of consistency coming from the fact that draw outs aren't affected by fury or faith.
Upupupu...

Zetsubou

Gaignun

August 23, 2012, 03:02:01 am #622 Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 03:32:00 am by Gaignun
About Draw Out: Masamune was mainly responsible for the skill set's success last season.  That, and the fact that hardly anyone stacked M-EV.

If progress on the 1.38 patch isn't too far along, might I suggest a few tweaks to the current list of suggestions?

  • Increase Lionheart's W-EV from 0 to 10.  If memory serves me right, Raven made it have 0 W-EV to compensate for its damage output.  Now that it has one less WP, I believe it can have its W-EV back.  This will help it keep pace with Platinum Sword, which is now stronger for users with 10 or more PA, and Katar, which has 15 W-EV and 1 Move.

  • Increase Epee's WP from 9 to 10.  This will help it keep pace with Main Gauche, which itself has 10 WP along with twice the W-EV and 1 Move.  Its ability to be dual-wielded does not justify its low WP; if players want extra EV, they'll equip a shield, which is both cheaper to equip (0~250 JP compared to 150 JP for Ninja and 500 JP for everybody else) and also provides M-EV.   I believe that at least +1 WP is needed to encourage players to pay these extra costs.

  • Make Bizen Boat M-Evadable.  While situational, it is brutally effective when the AI chooses to use it.  Mind you, it usually uses it when its opponent is charging, so it's going to bypass M-EV anyway.  Regardless, this will at least minimize its collateral damage, as well as give players the ability to guard against the new Mage Masher.


How is the 1.38 patch coming along, anyway?

CT5Holy

It just came out, Gaignun, although there appears to be a few bugs (not 100% sure about the bug statement).
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Gaignun

Ah, my bad.  That's what I get for asking a question before checking the latest news.  Thanks for the notification.

Barren

Yea i detected a few bugs already myself. I'll look for more as I go along
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Avalanche

great patch so far.
But i wonder how phönix blade works out, allways Reraise seems pretty strong.

Swiss

I know i mentioned this to Barren but I figured id put it here to see if anyone else has noticed or if I'm just talking nonsense.
I have used Heaven's Cloud a bunch on my bard, but have not seen it once slow a target.  I checked for immunity and i believe it may not be able to slow.
Swiss Ch3353

FFMaster

Checked it and the chance to add status is set to 0% currently. Will be fixed next version.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

The Damned

(Now let's see if I can both not hypocritically typo due to my constant inattention and actually be concise for once. Hmmm...this is going to need some type of secular miracle...just to pull off one.)

At present, I've only one suggestion for the next version of 138 at present, at least when it comes to suggestions that aren't more likely to need larger system changes, i.e. a version 139 already: Please move the "Defend" Support from Squire to Paladin.

I didn't really think about it given all the far more important things that we were discussing months ago before 138 came together, but "Defend" is even more unlikely to see any use now that "Concentrate" is both back and in the same set.

(This reminds me: Perhaps it should be noted in Concentrate's description that Blind negates it now.)

That is really saying something since I think "Defend" has seen literally 0% usage before throughout ARENA's entire history. As such, now it's looking at maybe i% usage if stays in the same set as freaking Concentrate. So it would really be for the best if it went to Paladin, especially then Paladin would at least be able to use a Support within its own skill set that isn't utterly redundant, ignoring desperation or quality concerns; let's similarly ignore how the AI tends to whore Defend status stupidly and how Nurse basically obviates it save for costing MP.

Additionally, it fits thematically more with Paladin as it is, given that Paladin is only class in all of ARENA that can actively add Defend through skills.

At the very least, it needs to not be in the same set as Concentrate if it's going to continue to have illusion of possibly being used; Equip Clothes actually can "compete" with Concentrate (by doing something entirely different), so that staying with Squire is fine.

(Now that I think about the Nurse thing, perhaps other alternatives like Samurai or Thief would be better since they too lack non-redundant Supports [and actually have C-EV, unlike Paladin].)

****

I'm trying not to "lie" about not making heavy suggestions, but I really have to ask something about that's been confusing me ever since 138 was revealed: Why was literally the only thing that changed about the three still-now Monk-only "headbands" the names?

I ask this less because no one commented on my suggestions about how to "fix" them twice, and more because I still have no idea what people actually think about them. The fact that only names changed, though, implies that people think they're fine...despite the fact that they've seldom seem use since they got relegated to Monk and its pretty much only ever Ribbon, now Chakra Band, that ever saw use.

So...yeah? What's the deal there? I can understand not touching certain things (read: Poles) given how much else was overhauled, but why touch that if you're only to touch the names to make them more...unisex?

(Also, I don't understand why you'd keep the weather graphics around if you went through the trouble of disabling their effects. That just seems like ripe for potential confusion. However, I'm utterly ambivalent about that, so I'm not going to kvetch about it.)

Quote from: Gaignun on August 23, 2012, 03:02:01 am
Make Bizen Boat M-Evadable.  While situational, it is brutally effective when the AI chooses to use it.  Mind you, it usually uses it when its opponent is charging, so it's going to bypass M-EV anyway.  Regardless, this will at least minimize its collateral damage, as well as give players the ability to guard against the new Mage Masher.


I pretty much concur with this between how much a Samurai's Bizen Boat can do and the fact that Mage Masher's Bizen Boat, while likely to becoming from units with lesser MA, is backed by damage. Comparatively, the only other item to both do damage and potentially damage MP is the Monster Dict, which only has more range over Mage Masher. Meanwhile, Mage Masher gets to be used with Two Swords & potentially get used with the pseudo-Concentrate of Hidden Knife or double it with itself, adds +1 Move, has more EV, effectively has more WP since Knives aren't split between PA & MA like Books/Tomes are and has a proc that isn't evadeable (unlike Magic Ruin coming off squishy, low-PA mages).

So, yeah, Bizen Boat, even if isn't "killer", seems like it should have M-EV. It would be consistent with the other offensive Draw Outs, even if it's not a direct; in that instance, though, Kiyomori would also need to become magickally evadeable, though that I'd actually get behind as well due to the huge boost Poison got going into 138.

Not a huge deal with way, but I just wanted to comment on that, especially no one else had yet.

(Ugh. This computer needs a break if it took that long to post.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

Headbands need a change, yes, and got neglected due to the number of changes. Same for the Monk class.

Defend... I'm not sure what I should do. It doesn't matter where the skill is, nobody will use it. I'm thinking to either remove it or remake it into something entirely if possible. It's probably possible to make it add status other than Defend, or add more than just Defend, for example.

I see no problems with Bizen Boat change, and it will probably be added unless someone puts up a good counter argument.

As for weather, I personally like the extra effects, even if they do nothing. Only thing I dislike is rain in DD, but I have no idea how to just change that.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Swiss

I have an idea about intial petrify with the stone gun.  I equipped stone guns on monks so i could see if a chakra band would start them off without the petrify status but it doesn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who is immune to a status can start the game off with that status. Unless you think it would be to powerful.
Swiss Ch3353

The Damned

(Nice to start another day with already being half-wasted.)

Might as well comment on this before I leave for at least a few hours.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 am
Headbands need a change, yes, and got neglected due to the number of changes. Same for the Monk class.


I suspected as much, but as I said, I think it can wait until 139 really. I just figured I'd ask since I was curious what was actually thought about them yet was still uncertain since no one had said anything and I'm not psychic, especially over the Internet.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amDefend... I'm not sure what I should do. It doesn't matter where the skill is, nobody will use it. I'm thinking to either remove it or remake it into something entirely if possible. It's probably possible to make it add status other than Defend, or add more than just Defend, for example.


Also understandable, especially since as I mentioned, the AI tends to waste turns with Defend(ing) status. I mean, the AI tends to constantly use Nurse when it really "shouldn't" or rather doesn't need (that much) healing just because it adds Defend.

That said, I'm pretty sure you can add and/or change what status(es) the Defend Support adds to the self. It "should" be relatively easy too from what I remember of the couple instances someone brought it up...forever ago (says the person who still can't code at all).

At present, you have a bunch of options for dealing with it:

1. Ignore it for now and deal with it later - Your easiest and frankly "best" option at the moment since it takes the least effort and there are far more important things to focus on at present. Besides, it'd have "company" in the useless department what with Monster Talk being around and unused since the beginning as well (if for different reasons).

2. Remove it - The second easiest "solution", though it requires you editing the Master Guide in the Squire section when you don't really need to (unless you want to point out that Concentrate is negated by Blind now).

3. Give it to someone else unchanged - The worst "solution", so it would of course be the one that I originally suggested. All it would really do is make Defend look less impotent not having to measure to Concentrate (or Equip Clothes) and potentially give a class devoid of self-redundant Supports like Samurai or Paladin a (free) Support they could use (in case of desperate emergency).

4. Change it to add Defend and some other positive status - I'm relatively sure that you can change Defend so that it somehow adds another positive status in addition to Defend. I'm not entirely sure, though. Of course, even if it can, you have to figure out what positive status to add alongside Defend that a) isn't busted to able to add continually and free, which means something like Reraise is out, and b) if possible, won't have the AI eating up its actions as continually (or at least uselessly), which means Haste is out.

5. Change to add some positive status other than Defend - This is a sure option even if the above isn't possible. Even if the above is possible, though, this would still be the second trickiest since outside of the above things, you'd also have to find a status the AI would use it on itself at all, even while in Critical, period. The "easiest" seems like it would be Regen, but free, infinite Regen also has the problem of seeming overpowered. (This gives me an idea for Embargo though.)

6. Make coding changes to Defend status itself - What these changes would be or "should be", though, I cannot say.

All that obviousness out of the way I must admit it's probably best for you to leave it alone for now.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amI see no problems with Bizen Boat change, and it will probably be added unless someone puts up a good counter argument.


Huzzah. I'm guessing that Kiyomori will stay as is, correct? I just want to confirm.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amAs for weather, I personally like the extra effects, even if they do nothing. Only thing I dislike is rain in DD, but I have no idea how to just change that.


Fair enough.

Quote from: Swiss on September 02, 2012, 11:36:17 am
I have an idea about intial petrify with the stone gun.  I equipped stone guns on monks so i could see if a chakra band would start them off without the petrify status but it doesn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who is immune to a status can start the game off with that status. Unless you think it would be to powerful.


It would be too powerful. The other guns would pretty much not get used, save maybe the elemental guns solely for absorption purposes; the other two non-elemental guns, which barely see any use now, would definitely never see use.

Initial (and Always) status taking precedent has been like that since vanilla. Not that I'm saying that alone should be the reason it stays as is, but given that Initial: Petrify is the only thing balancing Stone Gun as it is...yeah. Also, I think if you changed Initial: Status to be vulnerable to getting Blocked, then it seems liked you'd inevitably change how Always: Status interacted with immunities as well. Phoenix Blade with the Slow aspect blocked would be busted; so would Genji Armor or Iron Boots with the Don't Move aspect blocked.

Besides, this would only really be a problem if the Initial: Petrify meant that your Block: Petrify aspect didn't work at all and thus the character was still vulnerable to Petrify after the fact, which isn't what happens.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

Could be just me but isn't Malestorm suppose to be water elemental in the scholar skillset? I did a gauntlet series for Otabo's High Tides a while back and his scholar used Malestorm healed the party. Its not listed as water elemental in the master's guide
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

The Damned

(Maelstrom is indeed supposed to be Water elemental and isn't listed as such.)

I already pointed that out on the currently last page of the Download thread last night/early this morning though, alongside pretty much everything else that's wrong with the Master Guide in terms of just not matching the Changelog or stuff we discussed here.

There are probably more errors that are going unnoticed that can only be revealed by testing though.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

Quote from: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 09:24:16 pm
(Maelstrom is indeed supposed to be Water elemental and isn't listed as such.)

I already pointed that out on the currently last page of the Download thread last night/early this morning though, alongside pretty much everything else that's wrong with the Master Guide in terms of just not matching the Changelog or stuff we discussed here.

There are probably more errors that are going unnoticed that can only be revealed by testing though.


Ahh I must have missed it. My bad Damned. Didn't mean to repeat what you said
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

The Damned

(No need to apologize.)

It was easy to miss and it's not like repeating anything is verboten. I just wanted to point out that it's already been noted, just not in this thread.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

reinoe

I have a question about status interactions.

Let's say I have a Paladin equipped with Rune Blade, Flame Shield, Crystal Armor, Maximillian, and Cursed Ring

If I'm hit with the fire spell, I take double because of Cursed Ring, but then does it all heal because of Flame Shield?

Also what happens when and Undead unit get's KO when it has Re-Raise?
My dreams can come true!

Eternal

In regards to Fire Shield, you'd heal 2x the damage. As for Undead, I'm not 100% positive. I'm fairly sure Undead prevents Reraise in Arena.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Barren

undead you have a 100% chance of coming back (I believe cursed ring units are immune to crystal) and there is no double absorption in arena. flame shield and cursed ring combo does block out fire weakness yes
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?