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Bug cleaning and obvious imalance cleaning for 133

Started by FFMaster, September 23, 2011, 08:06:17 am

FFMaster

September 23, 2011, 08:06:17 am Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:06:45 am by FFMaster
Here is a list of my stuff
Changelog

BUGS
- Haku Korosu properly renamed to Tsuzumazuku
- Magic Ward and a few other skills mimic bug fixed. Tell me if other skills aren't mimicing.
- Holy Spear now correctly has 50% proc
- Hidden Knife now correctly has +1 speed
- Green Beret fixed
- Echo Grass now correctly appears on Item skillset
- Mad Science now correctly appears on Lore skillset
- Dragon Spirit now correctly 300 JP
- Status proc for Geomancy and a few other skills fixed
- Blind fixed


JOBS
- Chemist loses Move Find Item(worthless anyway)


SKILLSETS
- Bio 1/2/3 are now Dark elemental
- Dancer formulas changed to PA+X(debating on what X currently)


TODO
- Auto Potion
- Dual Cutters?
- Nerf H-Bag
- Remove initial: transparent from diamond helm
- Pumping Cursed Ring
- Paladin HP++
- Xif's Stat hack thingy
- Make flails not evadable and pump damage

If I missed any bugs or other obviously broken equipment/skills, then shout out here.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

RavenOfRazgriz

September 23, 2011, 09:07:34 am #1 Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 09:09:29 am by RavenOfRazgriz
Genji Armor.  For realz.  Bigger nerf requirement than H Bag, probably.  There's a lot of matches where H Bag is irrelevant.  Genji Armor is never irrelevant, because Reraise is guaranteed to matter.  It's free Reraise and a potential second soft-Reraise through Regen if the enemy doesn't deal in the art of facerolling enemies quickly, and comes at no real drawback - no low-end HP debuff, etc.  It's at bare minimum definitely better than Maximillian, which as the theoretical "most tanky" armor only gets 25 HP more.  Shit's whack, yo.

Not something that needs changing, per se, but on a related note, having both Reflect Mail give Reflect and Diamond Helmet give (less permanent) Reflect seems like a bad place to overlap, since they're both used by the same units.

Not sure if bug, but Salty Rage is only Initial: Berserk, but listed as Always: Berserk in the Master Guide.  Personally, I think it's fine that way, and would remove Berserk healing from Priest/etc. and make all the Berserk skills ally-buffers with some other incentive to get the AI to use it.  It's incredibly rare for you to want to Berserk an enemy unit, after all, and dispel-on-death ensures Salty Rage and general Berserker-ness has some kind of built-in check considering Berserk has no CT.

Bizen Boat needs to lose that dumb as hell 100% Silence, or we need more powerful anti-Silence accessories beyond Magic Ring.  It's kind of terrible that you can land Silence at almost no cost off Nameless Dance, land it for free while rearranging something's face for tons of damage with Bizen Boat equipped, etc.  4 classes can heal Silence, but the range on most of those is terrible unless you're Echo Grass in Chemist Primary, and one of them is even blocked by Silence.  It doesn't help that Silence is a needless Don't Act +++ against anything running X Magic/Talk Skill with no chance of wearing off outside of death.  Tl;dr: 100% procs on Bizen Boat is stupid, there's only 1 Accessory to block Silence given its extreme effect, most means of curing it are pretty mediocre considering your opponent can hit you with it for free by doing something they want to do anyway.  I'm honestly in the way of saying "Fuck Silence" and either removing or redesigning it in some way, because it's a fully-persistent and heavily biased status against something that's already heavily biased against.  I'd say "shit needs a CT", but a Silenced unit doesn't walk away, it runs forward, so by the time a CT runs out, your Wizard is probably dead anyway, making the CT useless.  I know the counterargument is parity between Silence and Blind, but Blind doesn't cripple you the way Silence does, and a unit that's Silenced can also eat a Blind and be crippled more, whereas a Blind unit can eat a Silence and probably not give a shit.  Something is just horribly wrong in this here game balance.

Fixing it so units in the formation screen can actually equip what they're advertised as being able to equip to make testing teams a bit easier.  (Like I said before, the issue is at minimal Bag equipping, could be more.)

Nameless Dance could do with losing Stop, maybe buffing the hitting on the other statuses or adding a new one to compensate a bit.  Slow, (working) Blind, Silence, Poison are good hazing statuses as it stands.  Stop is a ridiculous game-ender, though.  I can't say Nameless Dance is too powerful, but just that those random Stops are dumb - which is why I'd like to see it be given something else that doesn't randomly win games as hard as Stop does in compensation.   Silence is really strong, too, but right now Stop is the clincher status, and if we removed both Stop and Silence, I'm not sure what we could give Nameless Dance.  Could give it Don't Move and Don't Act separately, since those are both halves of "Stop-Light", easier to block/heal, and generally not as crippling or biased.  Would anyone be against Slow/Poison/Blind/Don't Move/Don't Act?  It'd be roughly the same power level, but far easier for teams to cope with in terms of gear and anti-status skills than Slow/Poison/Blind/Stop/Silence, personally.

Also, can we do something with all those worthless Talk Skills like Preach/etc?  Seriously, skillset has only 3 skills.  Not sure what there is to be done with them outside of finding some way to make the AI spam them more often, though, unless we begin eating into Oracle's design space.

Eternal

I forget if it can be done with the formula, but try having Preach/etc. add Defend. The AI might spam it too much then, though.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

RavenOfRazgriz

If all four of them were self/allies only, Add: Defending + Br/Fa Mod, I'd be more than happy because the AI would actually use the damn things and they could be employed strategically, but I'm 90% sure you can't do that with the formula, at least normally.

Pride

It would require an asm to do that, especially with that ugly hard coded talk skill.
  • Modding version: PSX
Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Dol

-  Black Magic Frog is broken.

-  Nameless Dance needs to die in a fire imo.  It changes the entire opposing team's AI to the point that it doesn't function properly.  Not quite the way Golem did, but its pretty close.

-  The WP of the Fire, Ice, & Thunder Rods could use toning down.  That dual wielding Scholar on my most recent team was pretty nasty.  3 of the 4 units halved Ice.  The one unit that didn't she could deal 700 damage to (it was a high brave, high faith enemy, but still).

-  The % to hit on Blackmail and Beguile are both really high.

-  Save the Queen & Ragnarok still suck compared to the other Knight Swords.  I'd take the Defender over those every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

-  A robe with Silence immunity would be optimal.  I'd vote to change the Silk Robe or Robe of Lords.  Something like 80 HP, 40 MP, Immune:  Silence.

Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

formerdeathcorps

1) Ban Rods + 2 Swords.  Otherwise, I see no further problems with it.
2) Make nameless dance = mass dispel (i.e. the opposite of nameless song being mass addition of stats).
3) Use 1.3's mediator skills.  I really don't like a majority of the skillset.
4) You guys are WAY too harsh on silence.  It's not that strong unless you build your entire team around Talk Skill.  Since so many weapons are now MA * WP, I really must wonder why you all aren't also creating mages who can use the attack button.  However, I do agree that every healing skill that can remove silence should not be nulled by silence (mostly thinking of esuna here)...just like how dispel magic (which removes reflect) should not be reflectable.
5) Beguile + Faith Rod may be too high, but otherwise, I don't see too many problems with it.
6) We don't really need Xif's hack that caps stat growth/loss.  In fact, I personally think the only real change that needs to happen to dancer is just higher MP cost in general (because -1 PA is a lot more dangerous than +1 PA).  However, we may want to code some formulas that use stats that don't involve PA/MA/SP so ruining stats to zero isn't going to entirely destroy a team (i.e. formulas like LVL * X).
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Malroth

September 23, 2011, 02:25:48 pm #7 Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:00:54 pm by Malroth
40 faith is WAY too strong,  One should not be able to become 80% resistant to a time mage warping the fabric of reality on you simply because you don't go to church

Faith/Innocent statuses last far too short as units only get 1 spell/ninjitsu off even with speed boosting gear and short charge
Heretic ring needs to loose Inital Haste

The Armour/Clothes  that boost nothing but HP need more HP

Silence/blind need a Finite but long duration possibly 3 to 4 times don't act's

Time Magic debuffs need a boost in accuracy

Holy water/Dispel should Cure Death sentence

Don't Move should replace Stop in nameless dance if its purpose is supposed to be hazing/inconviencing  

Kiyomori should be given a water elemental AOE in addition to its poison proc.

Ensuna/Stigma Magic Shouldn't remove Berserk Dispel Should

Wizanabus/Witch Hunt Should be streghened to 3x PA base but should be affected by Fury as well as Defence Up, Protect and Unyeilding, It should also trigger all the same reactions as ranged physical attacks

Add an additional flat +2 or 3 to the MP gained from Move MP up,  its currently too weak for non mages

The CP gain from speed save should be boosted to 30 or 40

RavenOfRazgriz

September 23, 2011, 05:13:07 pm #8 Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:52:39 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Rods + Two Swords I hadn't thought of, but that seems like a serious issue of just too many buffs being stacked onto one weapon (well, Element Rods, in this case) over time.  Some of those need to be peeled away, I think.  Probably those 100% Procs.  A good number of statuses (specifically positive ones) do need far longer CT, as well.  Speaking of Kiyomori, skill is so worthless, lol.  Though I noticed the AI can charge a Draw Out then walk back, leaving the AoE situated onto the panel they were previously standing on.  Intentional?  I don't see any issue with it but I figured I should bring it up.

E: I think what Dance/Sing needs isn't a higher MP cost, but higher JP costs.  They should all really be 300 JP, not 100.  Song and Dance units are not only really powerful, but really cheap to make compared to a number of other things in Arena, especially given their power.

@Malroth, a CT that long on Silence/Blind is worthless because the unit's probably dead long before it wears off, and Dead causes all other statuses to be removed.  If it's not going to have a fairly reasonable chance to actually wear off, don't bother.  If Death Sentence can be cured, it's not even a status.  Dead is already easily cured, if Death Sentence is also easily cured... just remove Death Sentence then.  Also, Dispel removing Death Sentence would make no goddamn sense because Dispel is meant to be anti-buff, not anti-debuff.  :|

As for the whole Faith thing - WELCOME TO FFT, FLIP OFF GOD AND YOU'LL ENDURE WHAT EVEN THE DINOSAURS COULD NOT ENDURE.  That's why I keep pushing for a Faith constant.  Witch Hunt at 3x PA... laughably broken, but it'd match the equally laughably broken Angel Song, I guess  Yay, let's nerf Move-MP UP into oblivion but allow team-wide infinite MP that bypasses the only check placed on Song in the last version.


Gaignun

Has adding unfaith spells been considered?  You could turn mediators into unfaith spell casters and leave the status game to oracles.  Alternatively, you could mix some unfaith spells into some of the current mage skillsets.

RavenOfRazgriz

Oh, I saw Malroth's comment on buffing Grand Helm/Maxmillian/Black Hood/Brigandine.  I can't say I'm entirely against that, but I wouldn't buff them much.  Maybe just another 5-10 HP each.  The main problem with the "max HP" gear is just that Genji Armor is almost always going to be better at defense than Maximillian because it essentially gives two Reraises vs your average teams, so there's no reason to ever go with Maximillian unless you're running P Bag and Chantage/Angel Ring.

FFMaster, have you considered implementing Pride's "Mist" status?  (I'd call it Refresh since that's more accurate to Final Fantasy, but you know which one I mean.)  You could implement it at 1/8th MP regeneration per turn, add it to Genji Armor over Reraise (along with adding it to a few other pieces of gear), then have a few of the MP restoring skills add it as a status / add a few skills that add it + restore MP.  Just write it over Wall, and there's its CT, even.  But yes, I think you should do this, and maybe lower Genji Armor's HP by 10-20.  This'd give them enough of a disparity to both have their own places (especially since Genji Armor would help with MP management, a uniquity for Armors), especially if you do a +5-10 buff to all the "HP only" gear.

Eternal

Quote from: Gaignun on September 23, 2011, 06:00:38 pm
Has adding unfaith spells been considered?  You could turn mediators into unfaith spell casters and leave the status game to oracles.  Alternatively, you could mix some unfaith spells into some of the current mage skillsets.


Ninjas.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817


Eternal

That makes the Ninja kinda useless then, Dual Wielding aside.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Malroth

The reason why I suggested Death sentence be removable by dispel is because of some fundamentals of game balance,  1) every stratagey should have a counter   2) taking a counter to a stratagey should have some opportunity cost that leaves you open in other areas.  In this specific case I suggested Holy Water and Dispel and specificaly did NOT specify Ensuna/Stigma Magic   Why?  because they are heavily used by teams to counter most statuses and death sentence is used by status teams specificaly because it bypasses those two.  Having uncommon, JP expensive options to stop death sentence while adding little additional utility should be an option for as long as death sentence exists.

Quote
E: I think what Dance/Sing needs isn't a higher MP cost, but higher JP costs.  They should all really be 300 JP, not 100.  Song and Dance units are not only really powerful, but really cheap to make compared to a number of other things in Arena, especially given their power.

I approve of this

Celdia

September 30, 2011, 01:19:33 am #15 Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 01:54:30 am by Celdia
You're right. Every strategy should have a counter. Since the topic is Death Sentence we'll look a little more closely at that. What does it do? Well, first and foremost it makes a unit Dead. It also has the double-edged effect of making units ignore it which can sometimes cause a problem for an AI team because it may decide to run away from a Death Sentence'd unit instead of killing it outright and ending a match earlier. Since that aspect of Death Sentence feels self-balancing, let's focus on the other effect - its makes things Dead. Well, Dead status already has many counters; Raise, Raise 2, Fairy, Phoenix Down, Revive, Wish. Let us also not forget the equipment that can Cancel: Dead which will also Cancel: Death Sentence; Angel Ring, Gold Armor, Ribbon...the list goes on. Hell, Death Sentence even gets its own special item that blocks it but not Dead - the Defense Ring. I won't even get into the list of items that give Initial: Reraise which can defend against Death Sentence at least temporarily.

On to your second point - which I hope I'm understanding correctly - is that Death Sentence needs ways of being removed, but that it shouldn't be on Esuna and Stigma Magic because they get too much use on other teams. Not only that but you want to put it on Holy Water and Dispel of all things. I'll start with saying that Dispel doesn't even make sense here since it has always been a skill that removes positive status effects, not negative ones. As for Holy Water, I refer to my previous paragraph and say the Item skillset already has a counter for Death Sentence: Phoenix Down. Why add Cancel: Death Sentence to a more expensive skill in the same set? Just so you can cover your ass from Zombie AND Death Sentence at the same time? This just feels redundant. The other half of your point here, "death sentence is used by status teams specifically because it bypasses those two", goes back to what you started with, doesn't it? Death Sentence is the counter to teams using Stigma Magic and Esuna as a strategy. Remember, EVERY strategy should have a counter.

But even with that said I'd like to take a moment to look at all these "status teams" you're worried about if only because I think you want these changes implemented because you see one team as a looming, unstoppable threat and that you are also completely missing the point of that team. Namely, Y U SO DERP. I went through all of the team submissions, skipping 'retired' and 'on hold' teams, to see just how much Death Sentence is getting used by 'status teams'. Since I can't be certain what that term really means to you without asking first, I hope you'll indulge me in my assessments of what is and isn't a 'status team'.



I offer this list of opinions with apologies to the team creators if I got the visions of your teams wrong.

Dark Secret Love: This team does have a pair of units with access to the Muramasa Draw Out. Not exceedingly dangerous for Death Sentence with a meager 19% chance for it to proc, but I'll be listing every team that has access to it. As for bad status, it seems to run Sleep and Slow most prominently and one could argue that lowering Brave counts as bad status. Overall though it looks like this team is focusing on delaying the enemy and then dealing as much damage as possible. You'll note the odd combination of Brave and Faith on the Mediators are seemingly optimized for taking low amounts of damage but also being able to turn magic back on their attackers with Counter Magic.

Hirosu: The Assassin Dagger looks like an afterthought on the Chemist here, though its 33% proc rate is certainly better than Muramasa's. As for the Draw Out itself, Muramasa looks more like low JP cost for high damage. Either way this team doesn't appear to focus on bad status as its driving force since it really only has one real status skill on the whole team, Doku no Kyoukai, which I believe can be completely countered by both Stigma Magic and Esuna. I guess this one doesn't count as a 'status team'.

Future So Light: Only one unit with Muramasa that also runs Asura and Overwhelm. Muramasa looks like the afterthought here. Definitely not a team focusing on status to win.

Academy Team: Now here we have two units with Muramasa...but not a single other skill or weapon to add status effects. With all of the MA+ gear this one looks like its focusing on high damage output and not a possible 19% proc of Death Sentence. Why Shade isn't also running either Kikui or Chiri with all that excess JP, I can't fathom.

The Norm Team: This has one unit with an Assassin Dagger and Steal Heart, another with Slow, not even Slow 2. The Samurai doesn't even have Muramasa but goes for Kikui and HC for damage, choosing range and element over raw power. Not something anyone would call a status team and it only makes the list because of that dagger.

D. N. Angel: Alright, finally a status team. I see two units with Charm, there's Silence, Silf, Odin...one unit has Death Sentence - in addition to 2 other skills that will shut down a unit instantly. All things considered, this team is likely looking to stall the enemy until it can just overcome them with damage and isn't using DS as a win condition - more of a bonus should it drop someone.

Boom Boom Shake Da Room: This must be the other team you were talking about, right? Kiyomori, Blackmail and Death Sentence on units with MA Save and MA boosting gear, and a couple of high damage item bots backing them up. They start out with a dangerous 50% hit rate on Death Sentence. So hey, that's one.

Motley Crew: One Assassin Dagger on one unit, Muramasa on another. Not really a status focused team here. Muramasa AGAIN looks like an afterthought of spending some JP to get a better-damage-than-Kikui Draw Out. Personally, I'd drop both of those and get Chiri, but that's me.

Team of First Times: One unit with Muramasa which also has Asura so this again looks like an afterthought of cheap Draw Out damage for specific, close range situations. That same unit is running other, better damage MA skills, though I will admit the Ninja on the team is very status heavy with everything EXCEPT Death Sentence. Looks like Stigma Magic and Esuna will trump him.

Gentle Spark: One Monk with Secret Fist, a Thief with Steal Heart and a Mediator with Daravon. This might classify as a status team since multiple units are running status skills but I'm looking at the Priest's Black Magic and the Monk's physical damage as the win conditions here. Secret Fist feels like something just tacked on because there was JP left over. He runs nothing to boost MA and still ends up with the highest proc rate so far for DS at 60%. Kind of sad when we've already seen a team that seems to use it as a major strategy.

Team Voodoo: Now here's a status team. Yin Yang Magic all over the place, good MP regeneration to support those skills, high damage potential from Monk and Wizard - the only reason they make this list is the Samurai is running Muramasa and Kikui again. People love their Kikui for that range and it just keeps leaving them with 200 JP they don't know what to do with. May as well get Muramasa...

JUMP AND GEO FTW: This looks like a choice of non-elemental+higher damage over elemental+lower damage. The design of this team appears to be everyone having Haste and moving in to destroy you with pure damage before you can act against them. Having faced off with them twice now, I think I have an idea of what's going on there. Also to note, the two Lancers are running Punch Art but no Secret Fist. Wouldn't take a huge sacrifice to fit it in there and it would still be good for a 58% hit chance. I guess DS isn' the big worry here, either.

Rivals: One unit with Muramasa tacked onto the end of a list of other Draw Outs and some negative status effects available on other units, the latter of which can be handled with Stigma Magic or Esuna. Thing is I see two 108 Gems wearing units with Ice3/Fire3/Bolt3 and the Samurai also runs Kikui. This is a damage team that happens to have some status effects on it, not a status team.

Which brings us inevitably to the showcase feature here...

Y U SO DERP: Is this a status team? Not really. I mean, they run a whole two status effects; Death Sentence and Don't Act. Don't Act even gets wiped clean by Stigma Magic and Esuna, but its jut a delay tactic. This whole team screams of delay tactics. It forgoes any option of dealing real damage just so it can persist. That's all it needs to do. Every unit is built to take as little damage as possible from all sources so it can just keep spamming those dances to whittle away the enemy team's stats. It even runs Stigma Magic to deal with a lot of negative status effects so they can keep on dancing. This team doesn't care how fast you go or how hard you hit because in the end you'll be getting 1 action to their 9 or so and you'll only be doing the smallest amounts of damage, and that's when they'll move in with their knives and stab you to bits. "But what about Secret Fist and Death Sentence?!" you might ask. What about it? Death Sentence and Secret Fist exist on this team as a mercy to whomever is recording the battle so that it doesn't run for two hours. It can end a fight that much sooner but its not required by any means. Feel free to remove it and test it yourself and you'll see the above strategy fall into place almost every time. Some lucky status procs like a double-petrify on the Chemists can take them down but taking Carve Model as an example there, that's a less than 4% chance assuming you can get them both next to each other AND be on a tile to make use of Carve Model in the first place. If this is the 'status team' you were worried about when you made your claim about them at all, I think you missed the point entirely.

I would like to add that if you think Death Sentence is such a powerful status effect, maybe you should try building a team that uses it to great effect. Y U SO DERP has no defenses against it other than things that treat Dead status. Maybe that'll win. :P



Just a note to your last thought of "uncommon, JP expensive options to stop Death Sentence": This is silly as hell. As I said before, Death Sentence is just a delayed version of Dead, one where your units can continue to fight for three rounds before they drop (as opposed to Petrify taking them out instantly) and there are already a pile of common, JP-inexpensive skills to deal with Dead. Adding in expensive skills that deal only with Death Sentence is a ridiculous notion at best.

On a lighter note, I will grant that Songs and Dances maybe could use a boost in JP costs.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Celdia#0