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[Old] FFT Plus 1.02 upcoming changes

Started by Dome, June 01, 2012, 12:45:58 pm

The Damned

(Oh, right. I knew I was forgetting something again.)

I was going to vote "no", but first I "need" to know a few things:


1. If you're planning on killing Breaks for Knights (and, by the sound of it, all generic classes), then what are you planning to do with Divine Knight, if anything?

2. Given Eternal's suggestion, what are you planning to do or change about Berserk status, if anything?

3. Does this break removal apply to the two Ruins that Knight already seems to have?

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Dome

My concern is that Stealing stuff > Breaking stuff (And, battle wise, the effect is the same: Removing an item from an enemy unit)
I want each job to be unique, or at least useful.

Quote from: The Damned on December 05, 2012, 09:26:11 pm
(Oh, right. I knew I was forgetting something again.)

I was going to vote "no", but first I "need" to know a few things:


1. If you're planning on killing Breaks for Knights (and, by the sound of it, all generic classes), then what are you planning to do with Divine Knight, if anything?

Divine Knight stays the same
Quote from: The Damned on December 05, 2012, 09:26:11 pm
2. Given Eternal's suggestion, what are you planning to do or change about Berserk status, if anything?

I have no plans on changing the Berserk status, atm
Quote from: The Damned on December 05, 2012, 09:26:11 pm
3. Does this break removal apply to the two Ruins that Knight already seems to have?

Of course not
My idea was giving them 4 skills + the 2 ruins
But I need some skill that doesn't make them look like a minor version of another class (Maybe some skill that gives defend to themselves or allies?)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

NightwolfXVI

I personally think the knights should have damage skills, kinda like Steiner and that other woman from Final Fantasy 9. Something that makes them shine on their own without out shining other damage classes. Either that or you could make them a better squire, like take the base squire abilities and give them to the knight except make the knight version stronger in some sense. Just an idea anyways.
Also I have a question, is it worth going ahead and playing the current version of FFT+ or waiting for 1.02?

Dome

Well, 1.02 will be a lot better than the current version, but it won't come out anytime soon...it's up to you, in the end

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

The Damned

(I see.)

So you "only" want four skills then?

Very well, I shall try to think of some things that haven't been suggested.

For the record, though, if you're keeping Berserk as it is, then Eternal's version of Enmity would be busted if multi-target. That should be single-target at most really.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Eternal

Well, Enmity would only be one square around oneself and it's not like it'd be 100% hit.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

The Damned

(Yes, I had gathered that much.)

Still, I suppose it would have been better of me to use "overpowered" rather than "busted" since "busted" sounds more like "broken".

Regardless of it's chance to hit, if Berserk is staying as is, then I'd be wary of any multi-target Berserk move, especially one that's on what's meant to be a tanky-unit, meaning said unit can easily get it off even if they're "at risk" because of it. The only exception to this at present is the redone Sandstorm in ARENA, but that's because a) the terrain for that is scare, b) it's only 20% and c) the AI is in control of it; it also helps that no one's really fought on the desert maps in at least months and that Geomancy use is in decline.

As single-target, I think it would be fine really, but even if it's "only" Self-AoE 1, it still seems potentially abusive by the player. That might just be me though.

For the record, what was average or at least starting percentage of Enmity hitting in Parted Ways?
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Eternal

Current PW's Enmity works vastly differently. It heals MA*1 HP constantly 2 AoE around self and hits enemies only, so that the AI will be lured into range by the healing. As far as accuracy goes, it's 100%.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Timbo

I split the stat breaks and the equipment breaks. I gave the squire the stat breaks, throw stone, heal, accumulate, and first aid to make them more like the Soldier from the Advance games. I gave the Knight the equipment breaks, tackle, beat down, wild blow (now a two panel attack), and delay attack to make them more like the Fighter from the Advance games.

All in all it makes the squire more useful and the knight more interesting.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Eternal

I really like Jack's suggestion about Squires, but I'd replace Tackle/Beatdown/Wild Blow with more defensive stuff, personally.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Dome

Yeah, I'd like to give Knights defensive skills, but I don't want them to be a poor-man Priest...They could be the only job able to use (And "inflict") the defend status...but I need more ideas

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

RavenOfRazgriz

Steal isn't better than Break though, Dome.  In terms of your ability to debuff the enemy, Break is almost always better because it can be performed at range, fired multiple times per casting, etc.  Steal is simply more rewarding than Break, which is entirely different and how things work in Vanilla, 1.3, etc.  If you want a consistent, safe, and reliable means of removing the opponent's gear, you use Break.  If you want that gear for yourself, you use Steal.  The main advantage of Steal is that the other abilities that come in the skillset (namely Steal Heart) are better than the non-Break skills in the Break skillset.  (Which amount to... none, actually, since Power Ruin and Mind Ruin are basically Break skills that look pretty.)


The best way to do this is to treat Steal Weapon/Shield/Helmet/Armor/Accessory as all being one skill, and Break Weapon/Shield/Helmet/Armor as all being a second skill, then give both classes a few more skills to work with.  You could also give Knights Spears as a 2-range option to equip that slightly accentuates Break's advantage over Steal without the need for a Support Ability on the primary class.  The point is, one is Risk/Reward (Steal) while the other is Range/Reliability (Break), and both are useful based on the kind of player you are, what equipment the opponent has, and what other abilities come in the skillset.

Dome

Actually...yeah, you are right
But Knights & Thieves look too similar IMHO, and I want to give Knights more flavour

Ideas so far (Knight skillset):

- Defensive stance (Defend on self & nearby allies)
- Disrupting swing (Little damage & Cancel: Charge/Perform/Sing)
- Aimed strike (Low 100% damage Weapon range)
- Something that gives Reflect?

I'm tempted by Jack's idea of giving Squires the stat breaks...but I'm not sure

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

The Damned

December 06, 2012, 02:43:34 pm #253 Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 05:30:23 pm by The Damned
(I'm currently ambivalent about Squire getting the two Ruins for various reasons that I'm not going to go into right now, having just gotten back.)

Reflect might be a bit much considering that, as in vanilla, very little magic can get around it and Knight already being the most tanky unit.  Of course, considering that you don't seem to have a Reflect-adding ability on any other class, even your Arcanist, I suppose it's "needed". Additionally, given that you seem to be using vanilla values, that means it will wear off still eventually and only White Magic gets really screwed over, assuming that Black Magic's Flare is actually immune to Reflect. Also, it seems more magickal than Knights "should" be capable of, but at this point that's of very little importance.

Ergo, I suppose you could call it "Polish" or something like that. Not exactly a stellar name suggestion, but almost anything is better than "Lick". As such, I'd recommend it affecting only the self or else the player heavily benefits over the AI. (Actually, you could may be get away with calling it "Astra" even though the actual Astra is notably different than mere Reflect in quite a few instances.)

That said, I can't say that I get behind the other suggestions. Aimed Strike seems far more like an Archer or other ranged-class ability, Cancel: Charge & Performing abilities bug me for the most part and the AI's going to whore Defending status every chance it gets, even if it's to little avail.

I'll try to think of something now that my morning errands are out of the way earlier than I'd figured.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Stretch

Just posting to reiterate that I love breaking equipment and leaving units naked. Please don't take my break skills away. :(
Yeah, right

The Damned

December 07, 2012, 01:19:27 am #255 Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 12:38:11 pm by The Damned
(No, I didn't forget about this. I was finally able to think of some decent abilities a couple of hours ago and then I got distracted by some other things.)

For the record, I'm still ambivalent to Knights losing the Breaks since I can understand both Raven's and Dome's positions. At present, the suggestions here assume that Knight is losing either one or both of the Ruins:


Proposal for Dome's possible new Knights

Chivalry (renamed Battle Skill skill-set)

1. Astra: Add All or Nothing Regen & Reflect to self only. Costs a decent amount of MP.

2. Nurse: Add All or Nothing Regen & Defense + HP heal to single-ally in close-range. Cannot target self. Costs no MP?

3. Enmity: Add All or Nothing Silence & Don't Move either in Self-AoE 1 that doesn't target self but uses MA+X% or Self-AoE Linear 1 that does target self but uses PA+X%. May or may not use MP.

4. Dispatch: Range 1, PA*WP, 100% Cancel Protect, Shell, Reflect & Innocent. Costs a bit of MP.

5. Shining Force: Weapon Range, (Always) Holy element, PA*WP, perhaps +1 in power compared to normal attack, Add Separate Blind. Costs 5 or 6 MP.


In addition to those, Knight can either keep both Breaks, split one with Squire or give up both. I somewhat lean towards splitting one with Squire since then AI will "intelligently" use which everyone igets without oscillating back and forth between Power Ruin & Mind Ruin in most cases. Of course, that arguably could get obnoxious, especially since I don't think you're using Xifanie's limitation hack.

Regardless, if Knight loses those, then they could perhaps get minor status relief such as Vox (cure Silence + minor HP healing on one unit) and/or Blindna (cure Blind + minor HP healing on one unit) so as to "protect" their allies' skill-sets. In my mind those abilities would use Faith & MP however, so that may not be something you want for Knight even if Ruins move to Squire.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Dome

Thanks for the suggestions/feedbacks given so far guys
7 yes & 1 no...
Looks like the Knight job is going to get a brand new skillset :-)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Neophyte Ronin

The Knight's Code of Final Fantasy, since V, centers on handling and deflecting damage away from an ally.  The problem with Defend is that, if there is another character who can be attacked at far lesser risk of wasting the attempt (i.e. easier to hit), then they get attacked, provided they are also within range.  In other words, given a choice....

Knights would probably benefit from Innate Defend.  Instead of being the only guy on the field with Defend (unlike the last Plus incarnation which, for its circumstances, worked very well), the Knight gets it as an Innate Status--the Class itself.  He need not select Defend and he need not use it or Caution during a fight.  A character with that kind of defense can be quite hard to break, but Thieves with their Innate Concentrate can give them a run for their money.  That would be pretty extreme, but again, there are workarounds.

As for Thieves being a little bit better than Knights, I am forced to agree.  Thieves have both Concentrate and greater agility.  They might not have lasting power, but they can get a much better defense with Equip Shield, while Knights could use Concentrate from the Archer to ensure they are just as effective.  The difference would then stem between the higher health rating of the Knight against the agility rating of the Thief.  In practice, Thieves fare better because it is easier to reposition them after an attack.  Knights are pretty much stuck there to get the **** kicked out of them.  This new push to reform their skill line-ups will have little consequence over their overall public image.

Knights and Thieves should have condensed their primary feature to one ability long ago.  An ability that casts a Break on one of four (or five, given that we're condensing them) is a crapshoot and Stealing a random article is also a crapshoot.  It dismisses the surgical precision and thus makes the moves far less effective at disabling an enemy in specific ways.  Now we can give these classes far more lasting capabilities as Classes.  So, if Knights get the condensed-to-one-and-then-add-new-ones upgrade, the same must be done of the Thief.

The Knight should follow the disruptive element to the letter; cancel prep status with a swift blow, for instance.  Knights should also follow chivalry, as stated.  Here's an example:

Sentinel - A situation where the Knight is given priority by the AI, even if someone is more vulnerable to attack.  Something behind the scenes, like a Status Ailment only Circumstantial, like Berserk.  The Knight becomes a frequent Target; if he does not Defend often or have access to healing, he is often the first to fall.  This could extend into PvP PSP games and is not meant to utterly exploit the AI like Transparent does.

Vigilance - The Character's Evasion stats for all sides are treated as Character (Frontal) Evasion.  This means, if you are 50% Evasion from the front, then you are 50% Evasion THROUGHOUT.  Either the Knight or Thief could have this; it could be an alternative to what the current "Caution" ability does as a Reaction and move it right onto the Support Ability list.

Raging Ache - A move that deals impressive power, but you forfeit your Health--usually 10%.  At what price glory?  This is a Knight Ability I would use in a pinch if it meant it got an enemy where I wanted it to go.  There are abilities in the Worker 8 category that correspond to this concept.  This would be a Knight-exclusive.

Joker Hand - This always crits, but you only get PA 1 * WP otherwise.  This means your damage is low but variable.  It always hits, and since it always crits there is also the chance of knock-back.  This might be a Thief exclusive.

Cleave - If your hit kills the enemy, your Knight can take a free turn, presumably to nail another.  Please note the attack must deal a killing blow for this to work; else, you just forfeit your MP.  Knights could use this to mow down some lesser mooks on their way through an area.

Minuslay - Deal Wound-Based damage.  While many Classes have this (Cloud and Beowulf), this one demands melee range and is thus harder to attempt.  It also requires a direct blow, so it is Evasion-sensitive.  But still, it's got Steiner written all over it.



There are plenty of ideas, but I'll figure them out.

I'm almost finished with my uh... "translation".  I've poured through the TactText and the EasyVent materials, and all I have to do is pour them into an IPS and see if it all works once I'm done.  When I know it can work, I'll send them to you for approval.  (Post-Script: the translations are meant to be for anybody and to be a departure from either of the official/current translations, but I can tailor item and equipment descriptions as long as your current Master Guide is up-to-date.  We'll discuss the particulars once I send them over).

Shao

Hello i'm a big fan of final fantasy tactics and i am really grateful for the hardwork you put in into this great game.
i'm pretty shocked at the number of patches available and i started out(without any clue how to even patch) with FFT 1.3 version downloaded from insanelyderpy.
The mod is really I.N.S.A.N.E(for one reason the enemy has got chapter 4 equips while im in chapter 2  :cry:) and i thought i should look for new patches and there i discover this site.
Your mod appeal to me more and im very looking forward for the new revamps that you wanted to put in the 1.02 version.
XD cheers! and thanks for making fft as fun as ever! playing the beta since im free at the moment=D

Dome

Quote from: Shao on January 22, 2013, 12:52:15 pm
Hello i'm a big fan of final fantasy tactics and i am really grateful for the hardwork you put in into this great game.
i'm pretty shocked at the number of patches available and i started out(without any clue how to even patch) with FFT 1.3 version downloaded from insanelyderpy.
The mod is really I.N.S.A.N.E(for one reason the enemy has got chapter 4 equips while im in chapter 2  :cry:) and i thought i should look for new patches and there i discover this site.
Your mod appeal to me more and im very looking forward for the new revamps that you wanted to put in the 1.02 version.
XD cheers! and thanks for making fft as fun as ever! playing the beta since im free at the moment=D

Glad you decided to try my patch, considering there are quite a few here at FFH :-)
I think you will like it, because the main focus of the patch is to balance everything while keeping a "fair" difficult
Feel free to give us feedbacks about your experience with 1.01c, or give suggestions for 1.02 (It's still in development, and extra ideas are always welcome)

P.s: WELCOME TO FFH, WHERE ALL YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE!

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"