Team organization

[fpkfor]

Taking up Andrew idea here and making a thread just for the discussion that is currently on the battle videos thread

I wont be discussing this any further,and if no progress is made/the discussion getting of hand/no one posts i will ask for this thread to be closed/deleted (if i have permission of course)

[silentkaster]

Actually, Shintroy, I think it's you who didn't understand the basis for my argument. I understand perfectly well what your categories had to say. I said I don't want to make it a universal or unwritten rule. I don't think you should be telling people or strongly suggesting people do anything. You can raise it as an idea, but the way you're presenting it makes it look like people should be almost forced to do it. You might disagree since you said this...

No one is pushing the sort, but I do encourage people to think about it so we can have a lot more entertaining matches instead of one sided ones like we've been getting a lot of recently.

Yet, let's look at a few of the other things you said.

Would it be a good idea for everyone to sort their teams into some categories everyone can agree on?

If everyone was to do this I think it would motivate others to make more teams. I think all three categories are encouraging enough as long as everyone sorts their teams out well.  I figure even if a quarter of the players here organized their teams there would be more entertaining match ups. Those that don't want to sort up could just be considered neutral. What does everyone else think about sorting teams to make match ups easier?

Everyone is...well everyone. Why should everyone conform? If you meant, "everyone that wants to participate in this type of organization," then say that or ask the question and stop writing; then you can get the "general consensus" you were asking for, not a convinced audience.

I'm aware of you and others that sort out their teams. Still though, I think it'd be best if we all organized our teams the same way.


GL organizing your teams. There's really no need to unless you have some you want to only be matched up against competitive and for fun teams, but thanks for doing so since you'll be helping prevent mismatches in the categories where they matter.

I included the first part since it, again, sounds like you're pushing all (IE everyone) to organize the teams the same way.

The second part of your post I included since you are "thanking" someone for taking your idea (although it started out as a general consensus, not a rule) with an indirect jab at people who don't organize their teams.

This is just my input on the categories. The one that decides how their teams are organized is up to the player. I'm only worried about new players unaware of category "rules" accidentally putting a competitive team in a for fun team. The vice-versa doesn't really matter, but it does since it wastes the other team's time if they just end up getting steam rolled. No point in thinking about it now. Matching up teams hasn't even begun yet. Let's worry about the holes when we get there.

Wait, didn't you say earlier that you wanted everyone to organize their team the same way? Now you're saying the it's up to the player how to do that?

Also, when you talk about the new players, see my number 1 and 4 points in my original rebuttal, which say why this will discourage new players to force them into this.

One more thing...and perhaps this is just me being a perfectionist. But when I manage people at work or anything else and I propose a new rule I want everyone to follow, I don't "worry about the holes when I get there," but rather try to anticipate holes and problems and solve them proactively. In fact, you do this when you make teams. For example, if you made a water absorb team, there are only a few items that allow water absorb and they're somewhat rare to see in normal matches. Yet, if you gave nobody a way to attack other than using water, if you run into a team that has even one member who absorbs water, you cannot win. Even if that member had healing staff/no offensive moves whatsoever, it would be a draw since you literally cannot beat that team. So, you give your team some ways to attack using something other than water. But that's anticipating the problem, not "worry about it when it happens," you know?

1. I don't think you understood any of the categories if you think it discourages new players. What's discouraging is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTj1M4U_W18 . Nobody's at fault here except maybe RNGesus forsaking Joorum who was a new player at the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10S6lDAh6KU 42 Minutes in against Malroth's team. Again, you're not at fault, I'm not at fault, and Malroth definitely isn't at fault here, but wow if this isn't a good example of a why there needs to be some pooling, seeding, or match making system then I don't know what is. At least in the next AI tournament we will have teams made specifically for testing tournament teams since there will 100% guaranteed be a team in the competitive category and a for fun team that follows a NO JP Cap or past tournament ruling.

2. I'm not forcing anything on the recorders but to maybe respect the players choices when it comes to pairing up their competitive and for fun teams with those that aren't sorted aka "neutral category". In the past people have taken the time out to make teams made specifically for one purpose like for fun or supposedly competitive and I feel leaving things how they are now wastes an opportunity for these players and maybe even for the uploaders themselves. It solves a player feeling like all of their teams have to be ready to compete and prevents uploaders from having to apologizing for taking the time out to record a match. I don't understand how you're not seeing the categories being the same thing as labeling too. Every point you've made at the end there just fits the neutral and maybe "for fun" category.

3. Definitely didn't understand the point of the categories again. If you don't care for them then you're automatically neutral. The categories aren't about the people that don't care, they're there for players that do. 14 categories? It's almost as if you didn't read the spoilered info at all so I'll explain again at the end of this post.

4. The categories doesn't stop all requests. I just posted twice about there needing to be a universal system for players to organize their teams, that's it, the system doesn't change much. The only thing that will change is a player being unable to have a match against a team if it's not in the same category. Of course if the player is active they can always accept requests, but if an inactive team were to have organized teams and someone wanted to have a match up with one they'd have to have a team in the same category matched up out of respect for the inactive player's wishes.

Exactly WKW. I admit I didn't as good of a job as I could have explaining the categories since it was done right on the spot, but it's obviously silentkaster didn't understand enough to fully agree or disagree with them as much as you were able to.

You have a good grasp on the reasons behind the neutral and competitive categories and how teams always have the option to change between them. The for fun category is definitely an odd one that I need to put more thought into. I think a lot of players need to rethink how teams are since there's a lot of players that may believe a "themed" team should or could fit in the "for fun" category.

Again, I understood and do understand the denominations. But I don't believe you understood my argument, "I don't think everyone should have to follow these rules, or even be strongly suggested into doing so."

By the way, I'm well aware of the match I recorded between you and Malroth taking forever. In fact, I had to sit through that twice, since the first time I had a problem with the sound. But the whole reason I did that was so you'd face a variety of teams that were well known throughout Arena and your tournament team along with that Malroth team were both pretty defensive. Therefore, long match incoming.

BTW, if this sounds a bit hostile, I apologize. I just don't like being told I don't understand something and then someone arguing points that don't need to be raised when I never argued those points in the first place. It's not that I don't understand your system; I do. I just don't feel everyone needs to participate in your system (and three different times as stated above, you said "all" or "everyone.")

[Kurosabes]

I think I'll start tallying up the win/loss ratio of each active team since the start of 139c. That means if someone labels themselves as Competitive or requests a match vs a strong team, it will be easier for me and other recorders (I can share the results if you want) to find a good matchup. Similarly, a new player who doesn't wish to be competitive (or doesn't specify it) would not be paired against high win/loss ratio teams.

[Shintroy]

Choosing to organize teams is entirely up to the player. I still see you don't understand that though silentkaster since I went and explained that the players with the same views as you will just fit the neutral category automatically. Borderline projecting like in the balance discussion thread  when you keep coming to the conclusion of me forcing anyone here to do anything.

No need to go that far WKW. Way too much effort when the majority of players seem not care about making rng match making less rng. To each their own really. If I end up having teams that don't go unused due to no one else having competitive teams then so be it. There's always testing teams the old fashioned way.

I won't go into any more detail on this subject either. It only took up half a page and seemed to rub people the wrong way unfortunately. Progress through change? I guess not that's too much to ask, so we'll continue to go with progress through consistency. RIP the dream.

[Barren]

It usually doesn't matter to me how people label their teams. No one has to have a "A" Team. I don't mind that people do, I just care about the date they were updated so that way whenever I check I know what's recent.

As far as whenever I submit teams I just submit them. I can classify them later if people ask me but I just submit teams whenever I want to try out a new concept or combine similar concepts into one team. But that's just me though. And I as a player have the freedom to label my team(s) however I wish as long its legal. Same for everyone else.

I don't think a way a person should submit their team are to be forced in a certain way. Yes, you do got to update your post in order for us to see and you must make sure that your team is legal, i.e JP cap for regular Arena teams unless a tourney stipulation specifies otherwise. But other than that let people label/submit their teams however they want as long as its readable

[silentkaster]

Choosing to organize teams is entirely up to the player. I still see you don't understand that though silentkaster since I went and explained that the players with the same views as you will just fit the neutral category automatically.

Again, I do understand. When you use words like "everyone" and "all," that's typically what they mean. You described, later, (notably in the second post after your original post using the words "everyone" twice and in a spoiler tab after you had already used the word "all") that players who don't organize would be listed as neutral.

[dw6561]

It usually doesn't matter to me how people label their teams. No one has to have a "A" Team. I don't mind that people do, I just care about the date they were updated so that way whenever I check I know what's recent.

As far as whenever I submit teams I just submit them. I can classify them later if people ask me but I just submit teams whenever I want to try out a new concept or combine similar concepts into one team. But that's just me though. And I as a player have the freedom to label my team(s) however I wish as long its legal. Same for everyone else.

I don't think a way a person should submit their team are to be forced in a certain way. Yes, you do got to update your post in order for us to see and you must make sure that your team is legal, i.e JP cap for regular Arena teams unless a tourney stipulation specifies otherwise. But other than that let people label/submit their teams however they want as long as its readable

I agree with this. I like to be able to submit my teams however I want. I don't like the idea of not being able to fight anything other than neutral listed teams if I don't categorize either, but maybe I'm misinterpreting.

[reinoe]

One of my joke teams of old, "Short circuit", turned out to be one of my strongest teams.

Most of the teams I submit are garbo because I cannot test them.  Technically they'd all start out as "joke teams".