Final Fantasy Hacktics

Voldemort

1.3 is not balanced for 4v4, that's why it's using 4v4 rules (max 2 of each item, skill, limits on ninja and samu, some top end skills, 3400 JP, etc etc). And with those rules in place, it does OK. (Alot of imba stuff has been weeded out through S1 and S2, putting us where we are now, and I doubt anything in S4 right now can be called "overpowered") - but that's the price you pay for running 4v4 on a patch that was designed for something else in mind (player vs AI)

Arena changes tons of things about the game but for some reason still follows some 4v4 rules like 1.3 does (such as 3400 JP limit) which makes no sense, since it was DESIGNED with 4v4 balance in mind - so keeping the rules for the sake of "balance" is very contradictory in Arena,  because the reason those rules are here in 13030 is because the patch is NOT "Balanced" for 4v4.

I don't feel like Arena has a clear direction right now and the fact that it's still clinging to the aforementioned rules leads me to believe that there's still a lot of work to be done with it's "balance".

Arena doesn't have to care about breaking the single player balance when they switch things up, so they have a lot more possibilities to get 4v4 right, WITHOUT arbitrary rules like we have here. I don't understand why it doesn't take advantage of that, but that's another topic altogether.

Pokeytax
Quote from Voldemort
"I don't feel like Arena has a clear direction right now and the fact that it's still clinging to the aforementioned rules leads me to believe that there's still a lot of work to be done with it's "balance"."

Yeah but you only get there by running a bunch of matches.  Arena is under construction and includes a lot of awesome lunacy like Mimes so I don't blame them for having a lot of makeshift rules to keep things within reason.  A comprehensive Master Guide and some regular minitourneys/league would help though, the action seems to be paused at "yep Pride's team sure is merciless" and it's hard for a new person to make heads or tails.  Don't want to sound too negative because it's very neat and ambitious. I would like to see the current tourneys continue awhile as they're far from played out.

Voldemort
Quote from pokeytax
"Arena is under construction and includes a lot of awesome lunacy like Mimes so I don't blame them for having a lot of makeshift rules to keep things within reason.  A comprehensive Master Guide and some regular minitourneys/league would help though."

You seem to miss the very obvious point that they will never have a balanced product that doesn't require 13030's arbitrary 4v4 rules if they keep running test tourneys using those rules and balancing with those rules in place. I don't see how it can get any simpler than that. If they balance with arbitrary 4v4 1.3 rules, then the final product's balance will depend on those rules. Otherwise the balance is gone once you lift the rules, meaning you had no 4v4 balance to begin with, and ended up in the same place (4v4 wise) 13030 is at.

They aren't "makeshift rules", they are 13030's 4v4 rules, put in place here because 13030 isn't balanced for 4v4, yet Arena is supposed to be. Please reply to my post as a whole, I already stated this exact same thing already.

Philsov
Quote
"Each unit has 3000 JP to spend on various abilities. It costs 250 JP to unlock ANY job.(includes Squire/Chemist) For example, to unlock Ninja, you only have to spend 250 JP(the 250 JP is lost forever). You do not need to unlock Squire/Knight/etc to unlock Ninja."

Sounds pretty different.  imo the cap and/or cost of skills and/or the unlocking fee need to be tweaked, but its certainly different that what 1.3 AI offers.  The other core rules under FFT: Arena are.... what... 4v4, limit 2 of any skill or item, and elemental wholly purchased for 600 JP.  All of which are pretty solid (again, minus the JP number) -- these are not so much borrowing from 1.3 as they are just good rules for the sake of balance and to avoid stacking.

Voldemort

It's different, but still arbitrary as hell. There is no point in keeping those rules when you are no longer bound to pay attention to single player balance (which is the limitation we have here in 13030).

Arena should have no arbitrary limitations in place like we do here, because it's free to change whatever it wants in order to achieve 4v4 balance. Relying on our crutch rules when you have so much freedom to truly balance out the 4v4 is lazy and a waste of time, IMO, or just simply lack of ideas / will to balance it out properly. Have some balls. Lift the rules, that's why the patch was started in the first place, for 4v4 balance.

It's like going to a Starcraft tourney and being told "you're only allowed to build 5 unit types in each match, because that's what we balanced around". That's not balance, just the illusion of it- OR an RTS with a very small scope!

Philsov
Quote from Voldemort
"There is no point in keeping those rules when you are no longer bound to pay attention to single player balance (which is the limitation we have here in 13030)."

The 3400 JP rule?  I made the 3400 JP rule with PvP balance in mind, completely ignoring the single player aspect.  Simply put -- there's a long list of powerful combos that certain JP caps offer, especially when coupled with the tree-like job unlocking system.  3400 was enough to unlock Ninja/Samurai/Dancer/Sage with a decent primary skill or two, but didn't for example allow MAU wizards with draw out, teleport or defense up on advanced melee units, severly limited damage split options, etcetcetc. 

This... is not the case in Arena.  But the JP cap still serves to prevent killer R/S/M combos coupled with extremely heavy action skillsets and makes team creation more interesting. 

What you're asking for is going to a Starcraft tourney and asking to play as Protoss, Human, and Zerg all at the same time.

edit: Not that I'm versed in SCII at all, but doesn't the current bracket systems have a "twist" in ruleset that changes at some interval?

Voldemort
If it's balanced for 4v4, there are no "killer, unstoppable R/S/M combos" that can't be countered, hence the word balance.

You can call it "more interesting team creation".

I'll call it "arbitrary rules which just limit my options like they did in 13030 tourneys" and "conditional balance that depends on arbitrary rules which vanishes the moment you lift them".

Philsov
Quote from Voldemort
"If it's balanced for 4v4, there are no "killer, unstoppable R/S/M combos" that can't be countered, hence the word balance."

Considering the options are:

1) Remove them from the game
2) Give them a JP cost/limit to prevent that much synergy
3) ASM every single R/S/M so they're all usuable/balanced

2 is the best one at this time, unless someone just starts dripping ASM from their pores.

Quote
"This is really very simple.

1) 13030 isn't balanced for 4v4.
2) 13030 depends on these rules to achieve artificial 4v4 balance.
3) Arena depends on the same rules to achieve artificial 4v4 balance.

---> Arena isn't balanced for 4v4."
No, it's not that simple.  If arena is balanced that allowing 4x of anything at all times or has no JP cap, the metagame is rendered impotent, or becomes so comp-dependent that as soon as the teams are revealed it'll be patently obvious who will win.

Quote
"I'll call it "arbitrary rules which just limit my options like they did in 13030 tourneys" and "conditional balance that depends on arbitrary rules which vanishes the moment you lift them"."

So you want unlimited options and balance?  I... uh... wow.  Don't know what to say except that'll never happen.  Ever.*
*without recoding a vast majority of the game.

Voldemort
This is really very simple.

1) 13030 isn't balanced for 4v4.
2) 13030 depends on these rules to achieve artificial 4v4 balance.
3) Arena depends on very similar rules to achieve artificial 4v4 balance.

---> Arena isn't balanced for 4v4.

Seriously, how can you not understand this? I'm not saying they are bad rules, I am saying that Arena needs to get rid of them if it wants to rise above how 13030 performs in 4v4.

You even agree that the moment those rules are lifted from arena, killer R/S/M and A abilities start raping everything, hence breaking the balance:

Quote from phil
"But the JP cap still serves to prevent killer R/S/M combos coupled with extremely heavy action skillsets"

Which is why Arena needs to start balancing without the rules, or end up in the same exact place 13030 is at now, but with different abilities and different stats.

Quote " "
"So you want unlimited options and balance? I... uh... wow. Don't know what to say except that'll never happen. Ever."

FFT options aren't unlimited. They never have been. Nice attitude though.

Quote " "
"If arena is balanced that allowing 4x of anything at all times or has no JP cap, the metagame is rendered impotent, or becomes so comp-dependent that as soon as the teams are revealed it'll be patently obvious who will win."

That's a pretty extraordinary claim. If Arena gets balanced to the point where allowing complete freedom works at all times without a JP cap, the metagame is rendered impotent, and as soon as teams are revealed we can predict who will win? lol. You're thinking of a vanilla tourney.

Let me correct that statement:
If Arena gets balanced to the point where allowing complete freedom works at all times without a JP cap...
then they were successful in balancing the game for 4v4.

Philsov
I really don't feel like going through semantic gymanastics on what I meant by unlimited versus the true definition of the word.

Quote from Arch
"Nice attitude though."

What can I say?  One plus one is two.  I mean, I'd be overjoyed to see someone actually rig it up so thats the case, but in my years of experience (read:  lots and lots and lots of Super Tact) its simply impossible.  Stacking turns the game into rock-paper-scissors.

Quote " "
"If Arena gets balanced to the point where allowing complete freedom works at all times without a JP cap... then they were successful in balancing the game for 4v4. Horrible, isn't it!"

Ban, hack, allow with limitations, imbalance the game.  Those are the four options.  Banning is boring and hacking isn't possible at this time, so we're left with allow with limitations or break the game.  Gee.

Arch
Repeating myself yet again:

Arena should have no arbitrary limitations in place like we do here, because it's free to change whatever it wants in order to achieve 4v4 balance.

SuperTact did not change as much as it could have (not even close). Arena can.
Quote from Phil
"Ban, hack, allow with limitations, imbalance the game. Those are the four options. Banning is boring, hacking isn't possible at this time, we're left with allow with limitations or break the game. Gee."

There's a 5th option. Actually balance the game.

Talk about false dilemma. I think you've lost it.

Quote " "
"I mean, I'd be overjoyed to see someone actually rig it up so thats the case, but in my years of experience (read: lots and lots and lots of Super Tact) its simply impossible."

If you'd be overjoyed to see someone pull it off, it's not showing. Forcing those rules on Arena is killing any chance whatsoever of it allowing true 4v4 balance. Your years of experience with SuperTact don't mean shit compared to how much they can alter the 4v4 with FFTPatcher.

Philsov
...you actually balance the game by banning, hacking, or allowing with limitations.  There is no other way.

Voldemort
Quote from Phil

"...you actually balance the game by banning, hacking, or allowing with limitations.  There is no other way."

That's wrong. Repeating it for the 3rd time:

Arena should have no arbitrary limitations in place like we do here, because it's free to change whatever it wants in order to achieve 4v4 balance. It might not even play like our tourneys do. The possibilities are huge. Putting your foot down and declaring "impossible" is really stupid IMO.

SuperTact did not change as much as it could have (not even close). Arena can.

Melancthon
Arch, just for clarification, are you suggesting that there should be no JP costs for abilities, and that we should allow as many uses of jobs/abilities/items as people want?

Voldemort
Yep.

And if that's balanced properly, you will see variety regardless, because there would be a reason to use everything. Random Example 1: Making a team with 4 Ninjas might sound cool, but has major weaknesses, thus deterring people from doing it if they want to win. They still can, but lose to better constructed teams. Keep in mind these wouldn't be 4 1.3 Ninjas, they would be 4 Arena Ninjas. Random Example 2: Using the highest WP sword might seem like a good idea on your knights, but it only has 3% W EV. Everyone has innate Weapon Guard. There's a sword with less WP but 25% W EV. Then you have to make a decision, each one with it's own weakness. Balance.

Of course this is all my opinion. I don't work on Arena, this is all what I *think* you can do if you balance the game for 4v4. None of this discussion matters if FFM and PX disagree with it.

Voldemort
What if you get rid of every single rule, right now? And then try to balance stuff. You'd be working towards 4v4 balance that at the same time doesn't impose limitations on what a player can and cannot build / put together. The balance changes you make then BECOME the rules of the 4v4 game. Instead of invisible rules like "max 2 of each skill" or "max 2 of each item" or "sorry, 3000 JP only", when it's obvious that the game itself has no such limitation.

My guess is you'd have to deal with the things that have always been broken in PVP FFT (and 13030), the ones everyone avoids actually fixing but tries to find workarounds via JP limits and/or banning:

- Blade Grasp (I think there's an ASM hack to make it vs swords only)
- Concentrate (I think there's an ASM hack to make it a flat % bonus instead of 100%)
- "Power attacks" (Big deal, open up FFTPatcher, that's what it's there for...)
- Abandon (Ditto)
- Blind (You already fixed that)
- Hamedo (Not sure if this one's been hacked, but it obviously needs to be changed)

Then there's a list of things which you can't balance even if you were to ASM hack it, such as:

- Move +3
- Move +2
- Move +1
All of which are lost causes, but to be honest, in order to make the player decide of he wants to get + Move or not (instead of no brainer like it is now), just give an accessory that gives +1 move, and done. Then the player has to decide: Do I want evasion? Or +1 Move?
Do I want +2 MA? Or +Move? Making people think and sacrifice one strength for the other is an EXCELLENT way to approach balance (see, choice of unit composition in Starcraft Brood War)

The problem with the current JP limits is that it says: "You can build any unit you want, but you are limited to picking 5 because it's balanced around a maximum of 5 choices. We're limiting your options because our system is only balanced to handle 5 unit types at once. If we let you build 1 of each, you'd break the game!!! More options would make you too strong. " That doesn't make sense. If more options make you too strong, then nerf the options, not their quantity.

And things which you can balance via ASM Hack or FFTPatcher

- Attack / Defense / Magic Attack UP (etc)
- Teleport (% success rate nerf)
- Every single Action ability (FFTPatcher)
- Every single item (gotta get creative here, and yes, it's possible to balance all 49049 items without removing half of them, using examples like the WP vs Weapon Evasion one I gave above, and yes you'd need tons of ideas to pull it off)
- The balance of magic vs charge times (and skills that can interrupt said charge times)
- The balance of instant physical attacks (though Fury does a great job of balancing this already)

You might not be able to fix every single movement skill, and the pool of movement skills might be limited (just like it is now), but that doesn't mean you can't balance things MUCH better than they are currently (the remaining 99% of skills in the game).

Quote from Philsov
"But you are asking for immediate rule changes without the balance changes to back them up. THAT is foolish."

Yeah, because the sooner they get rid of those rules, the sooner the real balance works begins. Don't you get it? Those rules are crutches, they artificially create the illusion of balance by limiting options so that instead of the player being able to use (example) all 12 broken elements of game-play, they have to pick 3 out of the pool of broken stuff, and fill the blanks with the stuff that actually is balanced, all the while always pushing their JP limits to try and make their setup contain the most out of the imbalanced stuff. If you are happy with that half-assed solution, then please proceed.

I'd hope that FFM and PX and whoever else works on Arena is capable of balancing things without the arbitrary SuperTact rules present. I don't think that's stupid at all.

TL;DR which you can quote if you wanna reply to this long ass post:


If Arena gets truly balanced, you don't need limits, because regardless of what the player combines, it'd be accounted for in your balance changes. That's really the bottom line. Holding on to the arbitrary SuperTact rules is a self-admission of imbalance, like what we do here in 13030 PVP.