Bullets and Gun (a new addition to Mercenaries!)

[LastingDawn]

Though the TEST demo is out, that doesn't mean innovation stops! There is still much more then what that shows, mainly a new plan I've formulated to make gun's muchmore unique and give a new touch to the whole of the matter! Introducing...

Gun and Bullets!
Part way through the game you will receive one single gun. Guns themselves I found to be rather boring, I couldn't think of anyway to innovate them that I haven't already tried or done with the Crossbow and Bow. So I decided to make them incredibly unique...

Are you aware of the secondary weapon range glitch? In that it shares the same range as the first weapon. Well I know of a way to utilize that very well to the benefit of this project.

Poles, have lost their place in Mercenaries, I can't find any class they really stick to, also they are a rather boring concept by this point. Poles have been turned into "Bullets".

You might still be asking "How is this supposed to work? Can't we just equip two "bullets" and completely bypass using the gun?

The answer to that is plainly, no, you cannot.

If I make Poles 0 Range weapons with two swords you Can't use them without the assistance of another Two Sword weapon, now I've made certain that no class can abuse this delicate set up. The only Two Sword weapon that these classes can equip would be Engineer's Gun and Bullets.

With the Engineer's Gun in the right hand and a bullet in the left, you will have two attack technically, one of WP ^2 and the other as MA * WP (maybe). With up to 8 different bullet types to the single gun the possibilities are pretty expansive. (also with Equip Change on each PC, this allows for "reloading" which make them versatile as well)

Any ideas you might have for certain types of bullets can go in this thread, or in the relative Equipment Thread. I look forward to seeing what your creative minds can put together!

[beawulfx]

Wow, hell of an idea. I love it, have you tested this or are you sure it'll work? It seems like it would, and it's very innovative. Mercenaries keeps getting better

I may try to think of some bullet ideas, as I am glad you liked the 'Mage Armor' idea.

[SilvasRuin]

I have been trying to think of how to do such a thing and was failing miserably.  I did not know about that glitch.  Very awesome use for it!  (Mind if I decide to borrow the method at some point?)

What route do you want to take?  A completely mixed bag or some sort of theme?  There's status infliction, elements, and special effects, and that's not even including damage.  I'll see about providing ideas after you answer.

[beawulfx]

Good questions, if you have any idea of how many bullets there will be and any sort of direction to give that would help, although I am sure some of the more creative minds don't need that direction, heh

[KazeKasano]

The obvious method here would be to look at the similar system used in XII (though in that system, guns could not be used sans-bullets). There are numerous bullet items in the game, many of them elemental, and numerous ones to cause status effects.
It should be reasonably simple to apply the same idea, right?

[SilvasRuin]

Well, the other thread lists that there will be eight bullets.  That's enough for one of each element (or one left over if a Cure one isn't made).  I don't really like that idea.  The melting pot approach is preferable, but I work better when there's a theme.  I would favor going almost if not completely all effect.

[Xifanie]

what about the Equip support abilities?

[LastingDawn]

Wow, hell of an idea. I love it, have you tested this or are you sure it'll work? It seems like it would, and it's very innovative. Mercenaries keeps getting better

I may try to think of some bullet ideas, as I am glad you liked the 'Mage Armor' idea.

I am certain it will work, I did quite a bit of testing with this one, as I was doubtful it would work, myself

I have been trying to think of how to do such a thing and was failing miserably.  I did not know about that glitch.  Very awesome use for it!  (Mind if I decide to borrow the method at some point?)

What route do you want to take?  A completely mixed bag or some sort of theme?  There's status infliction, elements, and special effects, and that's not even including damage.  I'll see about providing ideas after you answer.

Heh, a mixed bag is precisely what I'm looking for in this case. Any ideas, even Item Attribute like will be considered for these.

Good questions, if you have any idea of how many bullets there will be and any sort of direction to give that would help, although I am sure some of the more creative minds don't need that direction, heh

There will be up to 8, it depends how many we actually need. A direction... well some of them might have item attributes, a few of them might have status infliction, another attack, etc... For instance

"Rapid Bullets" relatively low attack power, yet has a chance to cast "Energy Torrent" which is a move that can hit anywhere from 1-12 times. All relatively low attack hits.

Things like that would be preferable, or even simpler then that.

The obvious method here would be to look at the similar system used in XII (though in that system, guns could not be used sans-bullets). There are numerous bullet items in the game, many of them elemental, and numerous ones to cause status effects.
It should be reasonably simple to apply the same idea, right?

Indeed but... I disliked that system, those bullets were rather bland in all respects. I think I'm looking for something more akin to Irvine's attacks in FF8 and improve on it from there.

Well, the other thread lists that there will be eight bullets.  That's enough for one of each element (or one left over if a Cure one isn't made).  I don't really like that idea.  The melting pot approach is preferable, but I work better when there's a theme.  I would favor going almost if not completely all effect.

Theme's are nice... but if they aren't creative enough they get more in the way of things then they do helping matters. Of course if you have a theme that is creative and innovative I am all ears.

what about the Equip support abilities?

Thanks to Razele's old works I was able to replace a few of them, while I would like a new one instead of Equip Gun, I can also just do without the ability. Equip Knife has become Equip Cards, Equip Sword has become Equip SpellBlades, Equip Armor for relative reasons (Invoker) is not available currently. My hope is to reimplement them at a later point though.

[SilvasRuin]

I don't see how scattershot and anything else with a charge time or AoE effect would work.  I'm also not including numbers as I'm not the greatest at balance and have done nothing to calculate stats and damage for this patch.

Shellcracker - Dispels Shell, Protect, and/or Reflect
Shrapnel - Separate chances for Don't Move, Don't Act, and maybe Blind
Ether Shot - Half damage?, 100% for a second hit that targets MP
Magic Bullet - Casts a random -ra level spell (is this possible?)
Drugged Shot - Confuse and Blind

[Dol]

Would it be possible to do something like Exploding Shot?  Hits with Fire 2/3/4, but with a 25% chance to hit you with it instead of the enemy (backfire)?

Also, the gun + bullet is an excellent idea

[Sephirot24]

Sounds like a great idea, specially with Equip Change on all characters!

Some kind of exploding bullet with AOE would be great if it could be made.

Also:

Blessed Shot - Fire and Holy dmg, (chance to cast addle?)
Shotgun bullets - 50% chance of an extra attack.
Debilitator - Low dmg, 50% chance to poison and slow.

[beawulfx]

I like the idea of a 'Heal shot' to use a single target (or possibly multi even) healing support without using MP and with more range too. Have to adjust it's power to a proper level obviously, but that's one I like. (Potion Launcher/Heal Shot/etc)

Could have one that does moderate damage with 100% knockback for strategic use (Heavy Shot or something to that effect)

Those are quick ideas, I'll try to remember if any interesting ones pop into my head any time soon. Again, awesome idea though.

[CT5Holy]

Ooo, cool idea. I should actually try and contribute something to the patch instead of just playing with it.

Some ideas for now:
Quick Draw - Normal damage, chance of confuse, reduced accuracy (~70-80%?) (You're making a shot so fast that it shocks ('confuses') people, but since it's so fast the shot isn't as accurate as if you had the time to properly aim)

Point Blank - 100% accuracy, ~1.5x damage, can only be used one panel away from target (is this possible?)

Hmm, the above are more abilities rather than ideas for bullets...

How about...
Gravity/Ghost Bullet - 'fires' a Demi (shaves off a certain % of HP, if Demi isn't in mercs) (Yes, not very original)

Poison Darts - Low WP, but high chance of poison (maybe include don't move/don't act? If all three chance of status goes down, if just poison then chance for poison 50+%?)

[SilvasRuin]

Main thing I'm thinking should be done is borrow the coolest stuff that is doable in weapon form from FFTA2 cannon units, FFXII's ammunition, and FFX-2's gunner abilities.  I'm guessing you're thinking along the same lines that I am already, beowulfx.  Is an MP healing weapon doable?  The effect would have to be small, but it would be interesting.




Heh, a demi bullet?  How about something like a Min[10%,100] formula or something (I think that is clear enough to at least get the idea) that serves as the highest level of bullet?  It would be the strongest against really powerful foes, but the others would still hold their own against weaker enemies.  Kind of like the FFII Blood Sword.

[Skip Sandwich]

when I think of varied bullet payloads, I think shotgun, also, people, keep in mind that these things are WEAPONS, not skills, and as such we are much more limited as to what we can make them do.

Buckshot- random damage, 100% accuracy

Slugs- normal bullets, set damage, may cause knockback

Grenade- earth element, fires a low-velocity explosive, dealing high damage, concussive force may inflict sleep or confusion

Penetrator- designed to pierce armor, may cast Shellburst (uses shellburst stab formula, so no extra damage if no armor), deals noticebly less damage then slugs

Coffin Nail- cursed bullet that feeds off the firer's life force, low-moderate damage, but may cast Lifeburn (deals high damage, but 1/4th the damage is dealt back to the firer)

Beanbag- deals little damage, but is very painful, very low damage, cancel: Charging and Performing

[LastingDawn]

I don't see how scattershot and anything else with a charge time or AoE effect would work.  I'm also not including numbers as I'm not the greatest at balance and have done nothing to calculate stats and damage for this patch.

Shellcracker - Dispels Shell, Protect, and/or Reflect
Shrapnel - Separate chances for Don't Move, Don't Act, and maybe Blind
Ether Shot - Half damage?, 100% for a second hit that targets MP
Magic Bullet - Casts a random -ra level spell (is this possible?)
Drugged Shot - Confuse and Blind

Ah yes, I apologize for missing part of your earlier post, of course you may use this idea.
Though Shellcracker, while a neat concept has been used already in Mercenaries, it is very prevalent in the Warder and Inquisitor sets.

Shrapnel's quite a concept there, though is there even such a thing as a "Shrapnel Bullet"?

Ether Shot - Fantastic! This is a grand idea! Of course it would need to be a 50% chance, also keep in mind it's two shots to begin with. The first shot is with the Engineer's Gun and the second shot is with the Bullet, though one will guess that the Engineer's Gun doesn't really hurt that much. (36, give or take) which for one you recieve it isn't that... fabulous.

Magic Bullet, eh heh... unfortunately no Ra magic spells exist anymore, all of them have been replaced. Also the Magic Gun formula would only allow for certain sorts which the Bent Pocket Watch already keeps under control.

Drugged Shot, Confuse and Blind is already used twice as well, Blansch has it in his "General's Seal" and Goblin's have it in "Eye Gouge" (though that might not be permanant in fact my next step after equipment is to make monsters more appropriate to their past carnations)

Would it be possible to do something like Exploding Shot?  Hits with Fire 2/3/4, but with a 25% shot to hit you with it instead of the enemy (backfire)?

Also, very the gun + bullet is an excellent idea

Hmm, this is a conondrum... let me check...

Yes indeed! Great idea! The 50% chance of a weapon effect does indeed work! That effect Can include the damaging effects of Worker 8's formulas! That is a brilliant idea!

Sounds like a great idea, specially with Equip Change on all characters!

Some kind of exploding bullet with AOE would be great if it could be made.

Also:

Blessed Shot - Fire and Holy dmg, (chance to cast addle?)
Shotgun bullets - 50% chance of an extra attack.
Debilitator - Low dmg, 50% chance to poison and slow.

Equip Change really makes the balancing of the bullets very interesting and is personally my favorite aspect of them. It's technically "reloading" in that respect.

Blessed Shot, is an interest move... I'll think about it.

Shotgun Bullets is keeping with the spirit of Irvine? It's already three attacks (granted one is a 36 blow directly of the Engineer's Gun), Shotgun Blast is an interesting concept... and will be considered.

Debilitator is a great concept! Perfect! Especially when used in conjunction with Formula 2D, though the two should probably be "seperate" rather then "all or nothing" though. Slow's a pretty powerful status.

I like the idea of a 'Heal shot' to use a single target (or possibly multi even) healing support without using MP and with more range too. Have to adjust it's power to a proper level obviously, but that's one I like. (Potion Launcher/Heal Shot/etc)

Could have one that does moderate damage with 100% knockback for strategic use (Heavy Shot or something to that effect)

Those are quick ideas, I'll try to remember if any interesting ones pop into my head any time soon. Again, awesome idea though.

Healing Bullet, eh? What anime is that from again...? It's a grand idea though! I will admit, it's unique in its execution... or wait! What of a "Wish" Bullet? I just tested this and it works great!An 8 range wish from a gun (of course take away 36 from the final equation...) in the end it's probably safe to say that the Engineer's Gun will have little to no WP, right now it has default 6, I'm not too comfortable with that, personally. Especially if we have bullets to help as well as hurt. Though yes... recovery from very long range is good, but I think making it Wish is a bit more... balanced.

As for the Knockback... That will work quite well! But the damage is rather miniscule... unless put into another 50% chance skill? Would that be preferable in this case?

Ooo, cool idea. I should actually try and contribute something to the patch instead of just playing with it.

Some ideas for now:
Quick Draw - Normal damage, chance of confuse, reduced accuracy (~70-80%?) (You're making a shot so fast that it shocks ('confuses') people, but since it's so fast the shot isn't as accurate as if you had the time to properly aim)

Point Blank - 100% accuracy, ~1.5x damage, can only be used one panel away from target (is this possible?)

Hmm, the above are more abilities rather than ideas for bullets...

How about...
Gravity/Ghost Bullet - 'fires' a Demi (shaves off a certain % of HP, if Demi isn't in mercs) (Yes, not very original)

Quick Draw can be done (a very different concept then what I had for the long ago scrapped "Gunner" class (Barinten) though it will need to be another 50% ability, in fact... all of these will have to be 50% abilities, heh...


Point Black is... a bit impossible, Weapon Strike attacks don't really obey most laws of Abilities.

Demi Bullet is a very interesting concept, especially combined with the Lifeshaver idea below, hmm... I'll get back to you all on that one, since if it can be done it would more then likely have to be another 50% ability.

Main thing I'm thinking should be done is borrow the coolest stuff that is doable in weapon form from FFTA2 cannon units, FFXII's ammunition, and FFX-2's gunner abilities.  I'm guessing you're thinking along the same lines that I am already, beowulfx.  Is an MP healing weapon doable?  The effect would have to be small, but it would be interesting.




Heh, a demi bullet?  How about something like a Min[10%,100] formula or something (I think that is clear enough to at least get the idea) that serves as the highest level of bullet?  It would be the strongest against really powerful foes, but the others would still hold their own against weaker enemies.  Kind of like the FFII Blood Sword.

Well at the beginning of the project I borrowed a lot from FFTA, though I haven't checked the gunner abilities in X-2 as of yet... Though the problem with the Demi Bullet as mentioned here is the fact it could do 999 damage to some "???" foes. Now the weapon element helps pervade that one though.

Personally I like our ideas much better then cannoneer's abilities as the moment. Also as for an MP healing weapon... MP is a rare commodity in Mercenaries, until you get Blissful Indulgence, one better keep hold of all of the Mind Rune's they can get their hands on. I don't think I could have MP recovery through a weapon without Major repercussions.

when I think of varied bullet payloads, I think shotgun, also, people, keep in mind that these things are WEAPONS, not skills, and as such we are much more limited as to what we can make them do.

Buckshot- random damage, 100% accuracy

Slugs- normal bullets, set damage, may cause knockback

Grenade- earth element, fires a low-velocity explosive, dealing high damage, concussive force may inflict sleep or confusion

Penetrator- designed to pierce armor, may cast Shellburst (uses shellburst stab formula, so no extra damage if no armor), deals noticebly less damage then slugs

Coffin Nail- cursed bullet that feeds off the firer's life force, low-moderate damage, but may cast Lifeburn (deals high damage, but 1/4th the damage is dealt back to the firer)

Beanbag- deals little damage, but is very painful, very low damage, cancel: Charging and Performing

Well not quite.... the 50% ability margin helps us even the creative odds on those.

Buckshot, hmm... well true, Poles don't have innate 100% accuracy on their shot, heh... Though how do you plan for Random Damage on a weapon itself? I'm all ears for that.

Slugs, set damage and knockback is sort of an oxymoron oddly enough... since only one formula has knockback capabilities which is ironically enough a random damage move.

Heh, Grenades... Earth Elemental though is an interesting concept, though. Especially since Float will guard against it. That one will be considered.

Coffin Nail - How did I miss that, this is another great idea! It's naming is unique it's effect is creative. That will almost certainly make it in.

[SilvasRuin]

Well at the beginning of the project I borrowed a lot from FFTA, though I haven't checked the gunner abilities in X-2 as of yet... Though the problem with the Demi Bullet as mentioned here is the fact it could do 999 damage to some "???" foes. Now the weapon element helps pervade that one though.

That's what I was trying to get at with the (random guess-attempt at a) formula.  Isn't there a way to cap its damage at 100 HP for example?  It would have to have its own formula, of course, but I'm fairly sure it is possible.  Don't one of the ASM hack threads have something similar for potions?

[LastingDawn]

A lot of those ASM hacks are rather unstable, they cause very strange problems at times. Though in those cases, why not just switch out your Elemental Bullet, for another Bullet that would probably be more effective in that battle? Part of Mercenaries playstyle comes from adapting to the enviroment around you and preparing for such. If you happen to stumble into battle with a less then ideal set, then using Equip Change to fix that should be no trouble at all.

[Skip Sandwich]

well, thinking on it more, maybe have buckshot the random damage + knockback, since i'm not sure if there is enought room in the pole formula to ASM it into a random damage formula, then slugs would be the 'vanilla' bullet, maybe dealing WP * SP, with no special effect.
grenade being earth elemental is mostly because I don't see ivalican technology involving proximity airburst bombs, the lack of AoE on weapons isn't a problem either because it'd be a pretty small explosive anyhow.
glad you like coffin nail, that one is my favorite

[Cheetah]

This is a really cool idea. I definitely want to see a video preview of how it would look in action though.