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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Mudvayne

Awesome idea for the Scholar. And I agree about too many weapons and items fulfilling similar roles. I like the Jump idea as well. Lots of good stuff proposed. There is lots of tweaking that could be done to improve Arena.

Barren

It is true that Time Mages and Summoners can use a buff. I would think better speed and HP would be beneficial. Especially since they are both squishy. Summoners shouldn't be this slow and their MA should be on par with scholars.
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Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on June 25, 2015, 09:00:37 amProtect and Shell
Given that the AI only casts the Priest spells when the target is in danger of dying, having the spells heal as well as apply Protect and Shell is the best solution.  However, I am not sure that a skill can both heal and apply a buff at the same time.  If this is impossible, then lowering the CT to 0 is the best compromise.

On a tangent, is it possible to reduce the damage reduction of Protect, Shell, Defend UP, and Magic Defend UP from 2/3 to 3/4?  2/3 reduction is fine if these buffs can only be temporarily applied through spells, but items and support abilities with Always: Protect/Shell, particularly perfumes, are just too good.  For example, equipping Defend UP increase ones effective HP and effective healing (toward one of the two damage types, mind you) by a whopping 50%.  In contrast, equipping Equip Armor increases ones HP by 15%~20%, and effective healing does not increase at all.


Celdia's CCP2 has the Green Mage, who's Protect and Shell buffs heal for a minor amount on top of the buff itself, so it is possible.
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Kurosabes

I've also done a similar effect to Regen, where it immediately heals 13% of maxHP if successfully cast, using the Raise formula.


Protect and Shell (or Protect 2 and Shell 2) could also add: Defending. This could incite the AI to use them more often
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Mudvayne

Adding Defending to it would be bad I think. The AI LOVES defend and I feel like that would make it end up being literally the only ability the AI would ever use for that unit. I could be wrong but I know how much the AI priorities Defend over basically every other status, so if that was added to Protect/Shell then it would just be spammed all the time.

Kurosabes

It's hard to tell. AI enjoys using Nurse at the beginning of a battle, but stops using it once Regen is in effect except to restore HP/cure Poison. On the other hand, Defend (the support) is being spammed over other potentially more useful actions (or no action at all, to conserve CT) despite having no other benefits. Going by that, one's guess would be that the MP cost prevents Nurse spamming here. Protect/Shell (2) also have an MP cost, as well as CT, which may discourage the AI from spamming it even if something such as Add: Defending was added. If they spam, you can scratch my idea
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Elmdork

I would seriously love the shell/protect to go off preemptively, but add defend seems a bit OP to me. The ideas I came up with were:

1: Wall has a %chance to add haste, Just enough to make the skill work.

2: make shell/protect essentially a low strength cure spell with 100% add shell/protect, so even if we can't get preemptive casts, they'll at least potentially save a unit from death.

3: make a clothing item that starts a unit at 50-60% HP for the purposes of getting units to target their allies when they wouldn't otherwise (reraise, regen and perhaps absorb elemental may benefit from this, nameless song please?)
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Shintroy

Shell is easy to have the AI use. The same methods used to forcibly apply innocent can be used with Shell, Shell 2, and even Wall. For those reasons I don't see any reason to buff these three spells.

The only way I can see protect being buffed is to give it a % heal. 10-25% at most, but only to. Shell could probably get a 10-25% MP healing so the AI uses it on units that are low on MP, units with a harmful spell being cast on them, and wounded units that aren't low enough in health to be healed, but enough to buffed.

Adding a chance to haste or defend to these spells would just mess with the AI. Certain support builds with life or nameless song are already affected by the chance of adding regen and positive status. For example,when you give a chemist nameless song or life song they'll choose to sing over everything else at all times.
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Reks

Dunno if it's Defending as much as it is applying Regen.

One of my teams that had the spell LOVED spamming it.
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Gaignun

June 27, 2015, 12:44:01 pm #1709 Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 10:20:02 am by Gaignun
Quote from: Mudvayne on June 25, 2015, 06:50:26 pm
Adding Defending to it would be bad I think. The AI LOVES defend and I feel like that would make it end up being literally the only ability the AI would ever use for that unit. I could be wrong but I know how much the AI priorities Defend over basically every other status, so if that was added to Protect/Shell then it would just be spammed all the time.

If memory serves me right, the only statuses the AI uses proactively are Haste and Defend.  The AI will cease to apply either once engaged with the enemy.  Only when the AI retreats or is out of range of the enemy will it reapply them.

Therefore, if we make Protect and Shell apply Defend as well, then I am sure that the AI will use these spells at the start of the match as they should.  If required, we could even scrap Defend's +Evasion, which would effectively turn the status into a dirty AI priority hack.  Unfortunately, this would require uncovering where the +Evasion is applied in ASM.

2015.06.28 Edit
Consolidating a few numbers here.  Feel free to pick apart the details.

Protect: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Protect, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP
Shell: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Shell, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP
Protect 2: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Protect, 20 MP, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 4 CT, 250 JP
Shell 2: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Shell, 20 MP, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 4 CT, 250 JP
Regen: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Regen, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP

Protect, Shell, and Regen turn into Cure spells that add a positive status at the expense of a finite CT.  Second-tier Protect/Shell are changed to match the change to the first tier.

NEW CLASS:
M: 134 HP, 67 MP, 8 SP, 10 PA, 8 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 0 C-EV
F: 125 HP, 72 MP, 8 SP, 8 PA, 10 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 0 C-EV
Can equip: Swd, Rod, Stf, Book, Pole, Shld, Helm, Armr, Robe, Acc
Innate abilities: Clairvoyance (see below)

Maelstrom: As before
Rime Bolt: As before
Earth Dragon: As before
Thunder Flare: As before
Shadow Shade: As before
Mad Science: Removed
Tornado: 4 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 20 MP, Wind elemental, Dmg_F(MA*7), 100% Cancel: Protect/Shell, 250 JP
Quake: 4 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 20 MP, Earth elemental, Dmg_F(MA*7), 100% Cancel: Haste/Regen, 250 JP
Bio 1: Sent to Wizard.  Made Dark elemental to prevent wizards from having innate access to non-elemental damage.
Bio 2: Removed. (If it was sent to Wizard, it would overlap with the Frog spell)
Bio 3: Sent to Wizard or removed.
Poison: Inherited from Wizard
Amplify: 4 Rng, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Amplify (strengthens all elements), 150 JP
Veil: 4 Rng, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Veil (halves all elements), 150 JP
Clairvoyance: Allows P-EV and M-EV to be applied even when Charging/Performing. 200 JP. (The name is inspired from Barren's proposed "Extrasensory.")
Distribute: As before
Damage Split: As before
Equip Magegear: As before
Move=0: As before
Total skill count: 16

This new class would be the first mage class that can equip armor and shields.  With the M-EV from shields and the status immunity from armor, it can be used as a reliable status healer.  Also, with its decent MA and high HP pool from armor, the female version of this class can also be used as a reliable frontline attacker with staves and rods (e.g., with Dragon Rod, Golden Staff, Poison Rod, etc.) Conversely, the male version can attack with swords.  Both versions can attack with books and poles equally well.  The innate ability "Clairvoyance" makes this new class attractive as a primary class.

As for the skills, Tornado and Quake are redesigned, and Amplify and Veil are new. Tornado and Quake are changed to oppose the new Protect, Shell, and Regen, which will likely see more widespread use upon implementation of the proposed changes. Amplify and Veil will require the ASM hacking of two new status effects.  These status effects are similar to 6.39's Oil, only instead of adding "Neutral: All elements", they add "Strengthen: All elements" and "Halve: All elements." These two abilities also heal the targets to encourage the AI to use them consistently.

Barren

I also hope while we're at it we can fix the thief and scholar bug where their animations is all goofy
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Kurosabes

June 28, 2015, 03:24:42 pm #1711 Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 03:08:29 pm by White Knight Wiegraf
Quote from: Barren on June 28, 2015, 12:14:56 pmI also hope while we're at it we can fix the thief and scholar bug where their animations is all goofy


I found the problem and it's really simple: in ShiShi, the Scholars were made into TYPE1 when they are actually TYPE2 sprites. The Thieves are TYPE2 when they should be TYPE1. No need to wait for an update, you could change it right now if you wanted. >>

Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2015, 12:44:01 pmIf memory serves me right, the only statuses the AI uses proactively are Haste and Defend.  The AI will cease to apply either once engaged with the enemy.  Only when the AI retreats or is out of range of the enemy will it reapply them.

Therefore, if we make Protect and Shell apply Defend as well, then I am sure that the AI will use these spells at the start of the match as they should.  If required, we could even scrap Defend's +Evasion, which would effectively turn the status into a dirty AI priority hack.  Unfortunately, this would require uncovering where the +Evasion is applied in ASM.

At this point it will become irrelevant, but since I've located the ASM to change Defend I may as well post it.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses
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Barren

June 28, 2015, 04:17:25 pm #1712 Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 09:20:28 pm by Barren
Ahh good to know. Thanks white knight. I'll take a look at that when I get home
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dw6561


From the things I've seen of arena, defend (the support) and caution aren't really used that often anyway. So if we're thinking about scrapping the evasion+ from defend, maybe we should change it so that the units don't use their defending sprite. That way it can be a "hidden status" of sorts. Nurse could still be used as a way to add regen and get some healing in but will no longer actually show them defending, and we could replace caution and defend (support) with far more useful options.



I'm all for this. Cure spells sacrificing an instant cast for a buff is a good idea, but is it enough of a trade-off?



I like this idea. Nerfing tornado/quake to MA*7 is a good plan, and I can see many possible builds with clairvoyance. The only problem I can see with this is that other mage classes might not see much use as a result.



Gastrifitis:
This weapon needs that WP nerf, maybe just down to 14 WP or so. It will still be a viable weapon for warpath/PA*WP scaling strats but will give more spotlight to lower WP ranged weapons.

Stone Gun:
Bringing the Stone Gun up to 5 or maybe even 6 range would help give it an edge over spell guns and crossbows, even if it will still have initial: petrify. Perhaps we could even change the stone gun to something else or remove the initial: petrify. I don't think we should raise the WP of it though, because WP*WP can really add up.

Demi Gun:
This sounds really cool. I am in full support of the idea. My question is, will it be a 100% demi or will it be percentage based like the spell?



Stop definitely needs to get an accuracy reduction or something.
What about adding a robe that gives +PA as well as MP? This could help with hybrid units like male samurai or paladins who have almost no MP and want a PA buff.


Even though I'm new, I feel the need to give my own two cents here. I'm actually kind of shy though, so it's difficult to make my opinions known without feeling at least slightly embarrassed.
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Gaignun

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on June 28, 2015, 03:24:42 pm
At this point it will become irrelevant, but since I've located the ASM to change Defend I may as well post it.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses[/font]


Cheers!

This is my first time looking at the code.  I did not realize how many NOPs there are!

Now that I've thought about it a little further, I wonder how the AI would respond to the change.  Would the AI refrain from attacking a defending target even when Defend adds no evasion?  This would depend on whether the AI queries the "Defend" flag or the evasion stat when making decisions.

Quote from: dw6561 on June 28, 2015, 07:26:53 pm

From the things I've seen of arena, defend (the support) and caution aren't really used that often anyway. So if we're thinking about scrapping the evasion+ from defend, maybe we should change it so that the units don't use their defending sprite. That way it can be a "hidden status" of sorts. Nurse could still be used as a way to add regen and get some healing in but will no longer actually show them defending, and we could replace caution and defend (support) with far more useful options.



I'm all for this. Cure spells sacrificing an instant cast for a buff is a good idea, but is it enough of a trade-off?



I like this idea. Nerfing tornado/quake to MA*7 is a good plan, and I can see many possible builds with clairvoyance. The only problem I can see with this is that other mage classes might not see much use as a result.



Gastrifitis:
This weapon needs that WP nerf, maybe just down to 14 WP or so. It will still be a viable weapon for warpath/PA*WP scaling strats but will give more spotlight to lower WP ranged weapons.

Stone Gun:
Bringing the Stone Gun up to 5 or maybe even 6 range would help give it an edge over spell guns and crossbows, even if it will still have initial: petrify. Perhaps we could even change the stone gun to something else or remove the initial: petrify. I don't think we should raise the WP of it though, because WP*WP can really add up.

Demi Gun:
This sounds really cool. I am in full support of the idea. My question is, will it be a 100% demi or will it be percentage based like the spell?



Stop definitely needs to get an accuracy reduction or something.
What about adding a robe that gives +PA as well as MP? This could help with hybrid units like male samurai or paladins who have almost no MP and want a PA buff.


Even though I'm new, I feel the need to give my own two cents here. I'm actually kind of shy though, so it's difficult to make my opinions known without feeling at least slightly embarrassed.


Thank you for your post, dw6561!  Allow me to provide my own comments.

The above Protect/Shell changes might be too good.  It might be better to reduce the multiplier from 7 to 6 or so.  I'll have a more informed opinion once I run through the numbers.


The scholar change might be too good, as well.  In particular, I am concerned about the stacking of Abandon with innate Clairvoyance.  The innate access to shields might be enough of a boon.  Adding an innate reaction ability to that is probably overkill.


As for the Demi gun, I think it would need 100% accuracy to be viable.  After all, it would deal only 33% of the target's max HP, which is about the same damage as a Romanda Gun, and this damage cannot be boosted by any modifiers.

Reks

June 29, 2015, 02:27:15 pm #1715 Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 02:51:33 pm by Reks
Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 01:06:41 pm
Cheers!

This is my first time looking at the code.  I did not realize how many NOPs there are!

Now that I've thought about it a little further, I wonder how the AI would respond to the change.  Would the AI refrain from attacking a defending target even when Defend adds no evasion?  This would depend on whether the AI queries the "Defend" flag or the evasion stat when making decisions.

Thank you for your post, dw6561!  Allow me to provide my own comments.

The above Protect/Shell changes might be too good.  It might be better to reduce the multiplier from 7 to 6 or so.  I'll have a more informed opinion once I run through the numbers.


The scholar change might be too good, as well.  In particular, I am concerned about the stacking of Abandon with innate Clairvoyance.  The innate access to shields might be enough of a boon.  Adding an innate reaction ability to that is probably overkill.


As for the Demi gun, I think it would need 100% accuracy to be viable.  After all, it would deal only 33% of the target's max HP, which is about the same damage as a Romanda Gun, and this damage cannot be boosted by any modifiers.



About the same on general units, but harder-hitting on the high-health tanky ones.

And I thought Demi was boosted sliiiiightly by Dark Strengthening? Huh.

At least, I do remember a match that CT5 did some time ago in a 'joke' battle where Doku WANTED his lancer to be 1-shot by a Demi 2 (he had a Platina Shield) and Barren's main unit for Demi 2 had a Golden Hairpin.

Wasn't sure if it made the Demi do any more damage (aside from the weakness to Dark), though.

EDIT: Found the match, here
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Gaignun

Dark strengthening boosts Demi's hit chance by [MA/4]% rounded down.  A very slight improvement, indeed, but not to its damage.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 03:09:24 pm
Dark strengthening boosts Demi's hit chance by [MA/4]% rounded down.  A very slight improvement, indeed, but not to its damage.

Ahhh, so besides weakness there's no real way to strengthen it.

That's fair, actually.

Since Demi is 33% HP, on most units that'll do at least 100 damage (amusingly, it'll actually be weaker against mages for obvious reasons), and should do about the range of an X-Potion or a Hi-Potion on more beefy units.

Still kinda weak in comparison to the other magic guns, so potential 1-hand since you can't really power it up? Would need balanced WP for Kage/GC/Spellbreaker(?) reasons and whatnot.
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Barren

I wonder if demi 1/2 should get a accuracy buff because of the strengthen dark. Like bigger than before or is it OP?

Death is also dark elemental so I wonder if it should get the same accuracy buff treatment due to dark strengthen
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Reks

Quote from: Barren on June 29, 2015, 04:15:49 pm
I wonder if demi 1/2 should get a accuracy buff because of the strengthen dark. Like bigger than before or is it OP?

Death is also dark elemental so I wonder if it should get the same accuracy buff treatment due to dark strengthen


It does, actually

At least that's what I thought when I made Till Death

Seems to be the case, I believe.
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