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Arena battle videos and discussion

Started by PX_Timefordeath, August 04, 2010, 06:49:51 pm

Barren

Quote from: Dokurider on October 24, 2014, 04:59:57 pm
Please use a team that uses Demi 2 on Demi 2 Better Happen please. I'll also accept a team that uses Dark Element primarily


I'll make a team that will make your dreams come true tomorrow
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: TrueLight on October 24, 2014, 03:03:37 pm
FFT Arena 1.39C - Reks (Till Death Do Us Part) vs. The Damned (Unused Katana)

FFT Arena 1.39C - Dokurider (Demi 2 Better Happen) vs. Fenire (High Ground)


Well, that was unexpected.

And I saw several 100% Deaths in there. I don't think she missed a single one.

GG, Damned. I got luckier than you this time.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128


Leif1991

Oh no! I thought Cursed Ring would kill off the unit if it missed the revival. Time to fix up my team.
Season 3 A.I. Tournament Champion

The Damned

(I still need to check up with the backlog, but I might as well comment on the three latest videos. Thanks, TrueLight and CT5Holy, especially since now I want to watch Nightmare Before Christmas again due to the former.)

No, Leif1991. Cursed Ring is actually balanced now that in you're not guaranteed to get back up 100%. You have a 50% chance of getting back up or nothing happening every turn after you hit 0 due to the  Immune: Crystal that Cursed Ring still has, which it needs since it frankly was horrible when you weren't guaranteed to get the unit back. The problem before was that FFMaster accidentally overcompensated by making the revival 100% at 0, which when combined with Quickening made Cursed Ring so overpowering and "over-centralizing" in the previous version.

You'll get back up...eventually. It may just take a while. Theoretically, you could never get back up, but I'm probably the only person whose luck is bad enough for that to ever happen to (repeatedly).


Given this was a battle of someone who has bad luck versus something has worse luck because Lady Luck loathes him, I already knew how this was going to turn out. Hell, I called the Decapitate proc, the Stop proc from Hell Ivy and not being able to hit a single Steal Heart (like always).

That Reks's team is actually better than he gives himself credit for while I expected mine to suck because I'd argue that Samurai is actually one of the worse classes also made the outcome of this rather predictable. Note that I'm saying that Samurai itself has problems, not Draw Out, which I'd actually argue is still a bit overpowered; too bad that doesn't mean anything, at least for male Samurai. Even the change to Asura the ability can't really save them unless maybe you go for suicidal max damage set-ups like the one Barren is using with the new Chirijiraden the Katana. Again, though, that's a Balance Thread issue.

Still, good game, Reks; I just wish my team was more of a challenge. Juliet alone pretty much kicked my ass, especially since my team, like the idiots they are, never targeted her. She's basically silentkaster's "The Queen" in mage form, at least when it comes to my team.

I wonder if there's anything I can do to make Unused Katana slightly less shitty. Hmm....


Not really much to say here at all given I've already harped on about Quake (and Tornado) being overpowered still, so I'll just ask the question everyone is doubtless wondering: What the hell was up with Won the Ninja's A.I. in this match, especially in the first round?

Like...seriously, what was going on there? Did he suddenly just decide "hey, we've been getting screwed over in the past couple of fights, I'll just sit this one out and take credit if we win"? He just kind of cowered in the corner in the first round and then straight-up ran away for a bit despite just getting healed out of Critical in the second round. The...A.I. continues to vex me after all these years, especially since I don't remember him acting up this much, if at all, in the other two matches were just recorded with High Ground. Huh.


Despite how long this went on, I actually don't have much to say about this either. formerdeathcorps's team just did too much damage for Leif1991's team to keep up with on smaller maps, though I personally try not to use any of the unfinished maps as it is, especially since there's duplicates among them as shown here. The duplication made unsurprising to me that fdc would win round three, especially given how it started.

I can only imagine that formerdeathcorps's team would have easily taken the first round if Cursed Ring was still as unbalanced as it was in 1.38, especially given how unlucky Leif1991 got in round two. At least in round three it was less luck that did Leif1991 and more just Slow 2 still being slightly overpowered/too accurate.



Quote from: Reks on October 24, 2014, 12:37:22 am
Huzzah, you DID catch it!

I still need to play that game, though. I only read about that. *snip*


Oh, so it is a reference to Paper Mario. Good to know I guessed correctly. I haven't played anything from that series either. Actually, I tend not to have actually played a lot of the things I reference unfortunately, such as Blazblue or Shovel Knight or Skullgirls. The only exceptions in recent memory have been the Kingdom Hearts-themed teams even though I've long since grown disenchanted with that series and the FFT:A team that never got to fight even though I never liked that series to begin with either.

As for the other references, I just thought you avoided the Red Queen reference because silentkaster's "Protect the Queen" is arguably already a reference to her. Interesting to know about the Poe unit though.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Fenire

Thanks for the match TrueLight.
What was that ninja doing!It is like my ninjas decided to play tag team and never tag out, or the archer stole all the AI in order to function perfectly. GG Dokurider

Barren

CT5Holy, please do doku's demi 2 better happen vs my dokurider's wish. I want his dreams to be reality!
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

CT5Holy

Just finished recording! Will splice and upload... later. Tomorrow or Monday I think.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Barren

Its fine, thanks man. This team is only made to make Dokurider's day, not really meant to take on anyone else's team :P
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

silentkaster

I've got a few teams coming. Expect a defensive and an elemental absorb...both of which I'm horrible at.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Shintroy

Ey. Can someone please make me save with a blank team vs another blank team? Only one file needed. Can't unlearn abilities so I plan on inputting teams manually. I no longer have access to a pc and excel so I can't make or fight teams at the moment. Thanks in advance.
and again when i start posting again.
Some day my people will be free.


Barren

consider your hopes and dreams a reality! there were some nice reflect + demi 2/stop combo I pulled off there. too bad my paly was useless half the time. maybe it was just due to being unlucky at some instances. it missed a axe shot three times in a row? oh RNG. GG Dokurider, that was fun to watch.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

The Damned

(Thanks for the video, CT5Holy.)

Also, challenge accepted on that essay about Magic Ruin.

You shouldn't have tempted me.

Weird how I haven't had much to say about the longer matches of late, though in this case it's at least somewhat "helped" by the fact Dokuknight the Paladin was mostly useless. Seriously, it was like a repeat of Won the Ninja from Fenire's High Ground's most recent fight, though here it might be understandable given how many OHKO Demi 2s got flung the Lancer's way (and hit despite their "only" about 70% chances of hitting). I'm still not sure if that would "excuse" her being the reason that Barren lost the first round despite the Lancer being dead for literally half of that round. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, actually.

The second and third round went much better for Barren partly because she actually was in the fray, even if she was basically just a bumbling meat shield with Reflect in the third round since she literally couldn't hit anything. She may have been effectively Blind, but, hey, at least she got used for cool Reflect shenanigans by the Chemist and Time Mage.

To me, given how great the A.I. is at using the status, the Reflected spells by Barren's team were easily the highlight of th is entire match. Everything else was just as an amusing exercise in fulfilling Dokurider's suicidal wish. I suppose it was also nice to see a Spear Grand Cross even if it didn't go off that often since I think this is only the third or fourth time ever someone used one in all of ARENA.


And though this should likely go in the Balance thread, since CT5Holy suggested it so nicely, here's six--technically only five--paragraphs on Magic Ruin if you really have time to kill:

As with the half of the skills in the current skill set of Steal that aren't Quickening (which I'd still argue needs to die), Steal Heart, Steal Accessory, probably Spellbreaker and maybe Speed Ruin, Magic Ruin is basically unusable in its current form. This isn't necessarily FFMaster's fault, as Magic Ruin has more going against it than half of the remaining unusable Steal skills. In fact, despite the A.I. being able to use Magic Ruin correctly unlike Power Ruin or Mind Ruin, Magic Ruin has even more wrong with it than either of those abilities. Indeed, a myriad amount of factors that utterly undermine Magic Ruin's viability: it's an MP damage attack; it must compete with the far superior Steal Heart, which in the same set; it is far too expensive both in terms of JP cost and risk for how inaccurate, short-ranged and self-defeating an ability it is.

Being based on MP damage is what defines Magic Ruin and thus is what is the chief problem with it. Unfortunately, MP damaging abilities are by their nature extremely difficult to balance in any mod where MP doesn't regenerate in some at least slight fashion if MP is used at all. Without a natural regenerative MP cushion to help mages escape obsolesence should or when they run out of MP, mages are naturally forced to overcompensate with MP-restorative abilities. That or turn to abilities that they don't use MP that they can actually use, such as Draw Out. As such, MP damage has the problem of either doing too little to actually matter in the face of MP Restore, Absorb Used MP, Move-MP Up, Angel Song, Carbunkle & Chakra or being overpowered by taking MP to 0 almost every time. This even though MP damage often wouldn't matter at all in cases where the target in question doesn't care about it, which is sometimes the case even for mages. Still, notice how the latter basically applies to only Bizen Boat while everything else that damages MP falls into the "nigh-useless" category, especially since every MP damaging ability save for Bizen Boat uses MP itself and thus triggers Absorb Used MP.

Furthering this is the fact that Magic Ruin can only ever deal damage in fixed percentages at Range 3...despite the fact that the only other MP-damage bounded to percentage, Spell Absorb, has greater range, accuracy, benefit and safety. Sure, they both rather needlessly trigger Counter Flood and Magic Ruin both deals more MP damage and can damage the Undead as well as work with Concentrate, but that's part of where its self-defeating nature on Thief comes in. Given the good damage and high speed that Thief still has even after the nerf Knives, with Concentrate it would be easier to just kill the likely squishy mage, since using it on a physical unit basically has no effect outside of maybe a Grand Cross unit (with no Chakra back-up), and without Concentrate, one could most likely just turn to Steal Heart since most mages are female and the majority of Thieves still tend to be male. Sure, the fact that Magic Ruin is unisex lends it some small measure of revelance perhaps, but it's clearly not enough to compensate enough to make it actually usable. This especially when has the cost of 200 JP for an effect that isn't even permanent unlike Power Ruin or Mind Ruin (or Quickening).

Really, it being in the same set as Steal Heart is the other chief problem with it. Charm is an extremely powerful status; with Invite no longer existent, it's arguably most powerful status in ARENA other than outright Dead. Magic Ruin having to compete with an unavoidable skill that has the same range, less JP cost, no MP cost, the ability to outright definitively stop spell-casting and often huge & immediately tangible tactical benefits should it land is what dooms Magic Ruin. Sure, unlike Steal Heart, units cannot be made outright immune to Magic Ruin, but they effectively can in many ways due to the amount of necessary MP-restoring abilities that exist and the extremely high chances that those abilities will show up on the unit that Magic Ruin has the most effect on. Additionally, that units can be made outright immune to Charm is arguably another benefit that Steal Heart has over Magic Ruin since at least the A.I. won't waste time trying to Steal Heart an Immune: Charm unit while it will totally Magic Ruin units that effectively obviate Magic Ruin; see: The Maintenance Paradox.

Unfortunately, on top of all that is the final crux is that there is most likely no better class that Magic Ruin could actually go to as it is now. Maybe it could go to Ninja, but that's a big if and Ninja is already most likely pilfering Thief's unused Heretic ability anyway, so there's that separate issue. Still, Magic Ruin at least wouldn't outright obviated by another skill withint the same set outside of perhaps Kagesougi still doing way too much damage for way too little cost on top of still unnecessarily causing Don't Act. So it would be an improvement, which is at least and unfortunately more than I can say about the currently seemingly non-existent ways to improve Power Ruin or Magic Ruin for A.I. use or Quickening for actually balanced use.


(TL;DR: It's because it's not Quickening. The End. ...Just kidding (mostly). It's because it's not Steal Heart, in the same set as Steal Heart and MP damaging abilities that aren't difficult-to-keep-from-being-overpowered Bizen Boat are innately somewhat self-defeating.)


I expect an A on my paper, Professor CT5Holy.

================================

More seriously, though, as far as commentary goes, you're mostly fine. I think your main problem isn't that you're boring, but rather that you're pretty clearly doing stream-of-consciousness commentary. Granted, that's what commentary usually is unless you're dubbing over the video at a later date, as I've done in text, or somehow clairvoyant. Still, it gets rather...obvious when you run out of things to say and try to fill the void even when you're not pointing it out with uncomfortable self-deprecation.

I'm not saying you can't talk if you want to talk. Just don't feel like you have to. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm glad that people are still just taking their free time to rather constantly recording videos whether there's commentary or not. You could always take a talk break in some videos and just play music over the match like TrueLight or myself tend to do. Don't feel like you're somehow contractually obligated to entertain us and thus that things are somehow boring if you're not saying something or being "funny", which is an utterly subjective thing anyway; latter is something I both loathe and don't understand about some of the more popular "Let's Play" people with their egregiously exaggerated reactions to everything.

Shrug.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

Now my team is updated to make demi 2 slightly more useful and my paladin slightly less useless. Anytime anyone has a team that is weak to dark please put it up against my Dokurider's Wish team so I can obliterate it with demi 2 ;)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?


silentkaster

Good job Reks. Ha ha, this match was particularly hilarious. Rounds 2 and 3 really showed off my team's shinanigans. Try as they might to be tanky though, they simply can't tank a OHKO spell.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Reks

*is somewhat waiting for Damned's eventual essay post*

I'm also working on a side team while creating one with Damned, so there's that.

By the way, does anyone know if Jump properly keeps the element of a weapon used when Jumping? I would like to test this.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Fenire

Thanks for the match Barren.
That went better than anticipated. Rng really hated on the mimes in round 2.

Andante49

Thanks for all the matches Barren, also the Rainbow Staff is for oil protection on the Scholar.

If it wasn't for the crit Spellbreaker Round 2 was yours. Once those songs started it was uphill all the way. GG Dokurider


Reks - In vanilla Jump ignored the weapon's elemental, not sure if Arena changed that but probably not.