FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Andrew]

As time goes on and more people make mime teams, I think that there will at least be a couple of teams that support my argument for the removal of the secondary skillset.  Of course, the potency of the secondary skillset is dependant on the mimics done by the mime.  Despite how "limited" secondaries can be to the mime, the skills that do work properly work very well, especially those from Talk Skill.  Also, Cover Fire, lol.  Let's not forget about Punch Art: give a Mime it and they're basically a Monk with less PA (which can be made-up for through PA Save/Accumulate/Battle Song/whatever) and the ability to mimic.  Item is silly, especially when the mime decides to throw items despite not having Throw Item as their support.  I know that this isn't something to be relied upon, but I think that it would suck pretty hard to lose because of an enemy mime (or mimes) being able to do this.

I'm against headbands solely due to Chakra Band.  Even if it's not as good as their innate immunities they had before, there's very rarely a reason for a mime to use any other piece of headgear, and that's what concerns me the most.  Like you said, things are still pretty early, but really... Chakra Band >>>>>>> every other piece of headgear for the mime.  Sure, the mime could equip helmets for more HP, but all of those deadly statuses the Chakra Band protects against still makes it much better.  If monks could wear other headgear, I'm pretty sure that the mass majority of them would still use the Chakra Band, even if their base stats took a hit because of wider access.

Maybe I'm not knowledgable enough to give input on balancing Arena, and maybe I'm simply in the minority (or all in my lonesome), but these are just some things that I felt like mentioning.  Take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Shintroy]

Do you know how bad mime was in AI battles before 139?

[Andrew]

I can't imagine they were used that often, nor they were great, no.  However, I still support them being able to use R/S/M and equipment, and if their access to headbands/secondaries were removed, they should receive stat buffing.  With that much being said, even if such changes aren't implemented, I agree with you that they should be buffed to 9 base Speed if Speed alteration abilities are modified/removed. 

[Kurosabes]

Monks rarely use anything other than Chakra Band either, so Mimes having access to headbands are not the problem, headbands themselves are.

I like the idea of Haste + Transparent too. This way, Masamune still remains unique compared to the other ways to add haste, and we could have a proactive source of transparent.

spoiler

I feel lonely. I seemed to have this aversion to haste/slow being inflicted by songs/dances, but I didn't want to see two perfectly good opportunities for a new skill to be thrown in a fire. It might not be so bad though if they are the only statuses inflicted though now that I think about it.

Could we possibly do Rnd: slow-innocent / Rnd: haste-faith? Should have suggested it earlier. If we do just haste/slow, what about putting Faith/Innocent on nameless song/dance?

Judging from poll results alone, Haste/Slow on Cheer Song/Slow Dance would at least be a given. Personally I feel that just Haste/Slow alone would step on/be too similar to Last Song/Last Dance, so another status should be added. Transparent/Darkness seems to be a popular contender to accompany Haste/Slow. This would mean that Nameless Dance loses both Slow and Darkness. I think that Don't Move and Sadness (if added to the game) could take their spot. Silence could be replaced by Innocent as well, mages always protect against it anyways. In fact, dare I say it, Silence should just be completely removed from the game.

[Andrew]

I suppose that I was thinking of a rather roundabout way to deal with Chakra Band.  I would be fine with it being balanced/changed and mimes still being able to use headbands.  I had to go back and look-up Sadness to see what it was all about.  I like it and your idea with how to improve Berserk.  Sadness would be quite the pain in the ass to deal with, so would it be an easily-removable/preventable status?  EDIT: I wouldn't care if Silence was removed, as there are other ways to deal with casters.

[Reks]

Sadness is effectively the opposite of Innocent there, honestly

Would make them a prime target for Netherspell murders and if Netherseers are created, that'd be like an Innocented unit getting hit by a -ton.

Just be aware of that.

And Silence effects more than mages, as it stops Talk Skill and -should- stop Sing at the very least.

[Reks]

Thinking about it, thematically Sadness would work better as Terror, Fear, or Afraid

Got the idea while playing Tactics Ogre and fighting Terror Knights.



And I finally got around to possibly concepting Netherseers based on what Gaignun shared with me.

I only got to the males for now, but I have ideas for females as well. Arms/cowl were a little weird because I resized half of the drawing and forgot to balance it back out after I kept working, but it's solid-ish.

spoiler: Male Netherseer Concept

Used this as a big part of the reference, as provided by Gaignun. That's why the legs and pants look weird.

FFT jobs seemed a little sad or emotionless in their expressions. I wanted a bit more of a... sinister look here, and a small smile with hidden eyes seemed very... different in terms of feel.

Now if I can do both genders well, I'll submit a request in the Sprite section forums. Hopefully, the spriters could take it up because it'll have potential use in an active patch.

[Corosar]

I think the names we're throwing around right now are temporary.  If they are actually implemented, it is probably best to come up with better names as you say.

yea i kinda guessed... i just wanted to be one of the first to throw up a few name ideas ^w^

[Kurosabes]

Terror resembles Frog actually, just not as crippling. I imagine it would be something more difficult to get rid of like Faith/Innocent. To make Fear work, it would have to temporarily lower the target's PA instead of Brave since lower Brave raises physical defense, and that would counter the intended effect of making them more susceptible to physicals.

[dw6561]

What about sadness being like you are more detatched from the world so things don't have much of an effect on you and you don't effect your surroundings much, and Fury can be like the opposite, maybe immersion?

Sadness = Aloof
Fury = Immersion

[Barren]

I have one more idea about equip changes. Would anyone mind if we let the Genji Helmet be always berserk? Reason being is that we can allow another option besides salty rage to be always berserk.

[Andrew]

I second the notion to change Genji Helmet's function to always Berserk... or, at least, not initial Berserk.  It has its uses on small maps, but since Berserk units die so easily anyway, it's really just a Grand Helmet minus 30 HP.  Besides, a teammate would gladly dispel initial Berserk, making the helmet even less useful.  At least the Chirijiraden is far from bad when its Berserk is dispelled, similar to the Stone Gun and its initial Petrify.

[dw6561]

I third Genji Helm getting always: Berserk. Time to make a PA-Stacked, male, Asura Knife Samurai with Attack Up and have him whack that best compatability, unprotected cursed ring unit. 

[silentkaster]

Would anyone be in favor of Yell getting the Masamune affect? This skill is a single target skill that costs MP, whereas every other skill that inflicts Haste (with exception of repel knife) at least has some kind of AOE. It seems lacking to me.

Also, I would love to see ultima changed a bit. Perhaps gain a dead proc, but make it evadable. Just doesn't seem great to me.

Also, the intended effect of Sadness would be something like to make them more susceptible to Nether Spells, and to nullify a melee unit. However, with something like Initial: Sadness (which would likely be the only way to get it aside from prices) you are going to make some very tanks units potentially. Still, would just require interesting team building.

[Reks]

Would anyone be in favor of Yell getting the Masamune affect? This skill is a single target skill that costs MP, whereas every other skill that inflicts Haste (with exception of repel knife) at least has some kind of AOE. It seems lacking to me.

Also, I would love to see ultima changed a bit. Perhaps gain a dead proc, but make it evadable. Just doesn't seem great to me.

Also, the intended effect of Sadness would be something like to make them more susceptible to Nether Spells, and to nullify a melee unit. However, with something like Initial: Sadness (which would likely be the only way to get it aside from prices) you are going to make some very tanks units potentially. Still, would just require interesting team building.

Well, that's the thing.

If sadness is indeed added, and people try and make some tankier teams out of it, you're gonna run the risk of someone else making a nuke out of an initial:Sadness Nether-Bard or Netherseer, if they become a job.

It's the same with Innocent and Faith, really. People use innocent to shut down mages and boost -tons, but you rarely see how it can be used to make a team EXTREMELY tanky against magic because nothing grants it initially and the only non-damage way to gain it is a quirky skill that the AI has to be coerced into using.

[Andrew]

I think Yell is fine the way it is now, as Basic Skill's strength solely lies in its vast versatility, but I agree with Ultima getting a bit of a buff.  I'm not sure if giving it a chance to proc Dead would be a good idea... it's slow, which can give the targeted enemy time to move in range of the caster's allies.  Odin only affects enemies, so you don't have to worry about insta-killing your own team with it.  Instead, maybe Ultima could have its CT lowered to 3 and its damage lowered to MA*8?

I don't think that Sadness should be an initial bonus, either, as the pros far outweigh the cons.  Sure, the nether spells could deal phenomenal damage, but any other form of damage that's affected by Brave would be completely shut down, most of which would be physical attacks, of course.  As for Innocent: the only reliable way to spread it is by using the overpowered Atheist Bow, which is more than enough on its own in most situations.  I think that its chance to proc Innocent should be lowered to 30-40%, and its WP to 13. 

Disclaimer: These numbers I post are more of a "gut feeling" than the result of any mathematics being done.  Lol.

[Gaignun]

I am fine with Yell getting Regen.  It is currently the lousiest way to apply Haste. Reduce its range from 3 to 2 if needs be.

I would rather improve Ultima's usability than change its purpose.  It is currently a slow, weak spell on a skillset which is, on the whole, unattractive to casters.  Its only current purpose I can think of is as an AoE nuke on 40-40 tank teams that, for some reason, wish to eschew Draw Out.  Buffing Yell would make Basic Skill, and Ultima by extension, more attractive in general (especially if Masamune loses Regen).  In addition, we could reduce the CT.  I personally would like it to drop from 5 to 3 to put it on par with tier-1 magic.

[silentkaster]

I am fine with Yell getting Regen.  It is currently the lousiest way to apply Haste. Reduce its range from 3 to 2 if needs be.

I would rather improve Ultima's usability than change its purpose.  It is currently a slow, weak spell on a skillset which is, on the whole, unattractive to casters.  Its only current purpose I can think of is as an AoE nuke on 40-40 tank teams that, for some reason, wish to eschew Draw Out.  Buffing Yell would make Basic Skill, and Ultima by extension, more attractive in general (especially if Masamune loses Regen).  In addition, we could reduce the CT.  I personally would like it to drop from 5 to 3 to put it on par with tier-1 magic.

I second all of this.

[Shintroy]

Is it possible to give the support ability defend regen? Think of it as a lesser nurse since it doesn't heal.

[Kurosabes]

I'd be ok with a buff to Defend but if Yell also gets Regen, that would make two new ways to instantly counter Poison, not to mention there will probably be an accessory or two to defend against it. I think Defending itself could be buffed to last longer than one turn.

I believe Repel Knife should also add Poison. Since status CT is separate from the unit's CT, Regen from Masamune is taken advantage of as you get more turns, and therefore get more regens out of your Regen. Repel Knife would do the same thing with Poison. At best, it would send a unit to die in a corner, far away from his allies (which is unlikely to happen on any half-decent team). The chance of backfiring due to Don't Act immunity wouldn't change, but at least you'd poison the target and waste an enemy's turn to cure Poison. There's still the risk of the target having both Poison and Don't Act immunities, but it wouldn't be common enough for me to be as repelled from the Repel Knife as I am now.

Ultima is an oddball, and a slow one at that. I mean, it's just not a Basic Skill at all. I understand we might not want to stray too far away from vanilla but maybe the Battlemage or the Netherseer could get the ability instead. (Great job ideas by the way Gaignun)