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Arena BETA 130 changes discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, May 26, 2011, 06:48:30 am

FFMaster

Since it has been a while, I'm making this thread to refresh my memory as well as others. This is mainly for people to discuss on what direction Arena should go, how to balance it, and any other changes that should happen.

Right now, I can remember a few things being debated before I left:

- Good/Bad compat being reduced to 12.5%. Best/Worst compat being reduced to 25%. For all I know, fdc is the only person who is truly against this change. From my view though, it would be an indirect nerf to healing as well as positive status abilities, since it will reduce their heal/hit rate, assuming all teams runs good/best compat teams (I've yet to see a team run 4 bad/worst compat team members =p). Damaging attacks will also become more standardised, assuming the opponent has a completely random Zodiac/gender. There may be other effects to this.

- Remaking weapons. As of right now, most weapons are using the PA*WP formula (Swords, Knight Swords, Katanas, Spears, Crossbows off the top of my head, there are likely more) and the only difference between them is range and equipment restrictions. I think diversifying them by changing the formula that each weapon uses will help some needed weapons that will always be shadowed.

- Status effects. This discussion is fairly recent on IRC. A suggestion was brought up (forgot who, sorry) suggesting that positive statii cancel negative statii and vice versa, similar to Haste/Slow. For example, Reraise could cancel Death Sentence, and Death Sentence could cancel Reraise. Now, a few problems arise. Firstly, we would have to decide which status goes with where (I honestly don't know what can go well with things like Frog or Oil). Secondly, this would make spells like Paralyze even stronger, although very little. Thirdly, this would make status healing spells less shiny, but once again this is quite minor. On the other hand, this would give the AI more incentive to use spells such as Protect/Shell, which were only used when allies were in critical.

Well, that's all I've got for now. Feel free to voice your opinions or to raise your own suggestions. If it is reasonable (ie. Doable), and has support we can try it out. If it doesn't work, then we can always revert back a bit.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Pride

1. As you may know, I strongly prefer a 12/25% system to take less emphasis on a big part of the luck in battles and to reduce peoples reliance on just using best compat to ensure Status attacks hit. Now people will have to devote more Faith to their attackers... Potentially give Magic users a bigger boon (which I believe is a good thing).

2. I like giving other weapons different formulas to play around with to encourage the use of across the board... Though it could back fire.

3. No comment
  • Modding version: PSX
Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Wiz

First and Second Para's I agree with.

As for suggestions/possibilities on the third one, I know that Poison -> Regen / Regen -> Poison works, but what about Blind -> Transparent / Transparent -> Blind? Would that cancellation work out or does it already work that way?

I'm planning on helping out big time when I get done with S5 :)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

philsov

QuoteI'm planning on helping out big time when I get done with S5


Speaking of which, Wiz redid positions on several of the crappier maps.  They're worth adopting here imo.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

FFMaster

Can someone list the maps that were changed? I'd rather not mess with the 12211221 priorities for Arena.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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MysticKnightFF5

...I'd prefer a remove to compatibility altogether, but that's just me.

Eternal

Quote from: MysticKnightFF5 on May 26, 2011, 08:41:59 pm
...I'd prefer a remove to compatibility altogether, but that's just me.


I second this. I think luck (i.e, getting lucky on compat with the enemy) should play as small a factor as possible in a tournament patch.
  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
"You, no less human than we? Ha! Now there's a beastly thought. You've been less than we from the moment your baseborn father fell upon your mother in whatever gutter saw you sired! You've been chattel since you came into the world drenched in common blood!"
  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Wiz

May 26, 2011, 09:00:06 pm #7 Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 09:12:37 pm by Wiz
Quote from: FFMaster on May 26, 2011, 08:31:55 pm
Can someone list the maps that were changed?


Copy/Paste from the 1.3 AI Tournament S5 Rules Discussion Thread on page 11 (Look at the spoilers)

QuoteOkay, first of all, I have to point out that I did not factor in this rule. Too complicated to do what I just did with it otherwise.

VERY IMPORTANT: Based on map placement:
• Unit #1 will be on highest panel and Unit #4 will stand on lowest panel
IF the panels heights are about the same:
• Unit #1 will be the nearest unit to access a high leveled area.
IF there is no high leveled area:
• Unit #1 will be in front of the others.
Note that I used constantly "Unit #1". But in fact if we'd have 4 units on different heights, for example #1 would be placed on height 7, #2 on height 5, #3 on height 4, and #4 on height 2.

If you wish to change your team order before the tournament, just PM Barren your new order, like: 3 1 2 4 or whatever. It's very simple and quick to change the team order so don't hesitate.


Legend:
* = change in position
Player 1/Yellow Team = My S5 Team in Formation Screen Order (Unit 1/Samurai, Unit 2/Ninja, Unit 3/Lancer, Unit 4/Time Mage)
Player 2/White Team = n00btactic's Team in Formation Screen Order (Unit 1/Lancer, Unit 2/Knight aka Cinnamint, Unit 3/Knight aka Peppermint, Unit 4/Summoner


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
* Unit 1/Samurai moved to (4,1). In other words, one panel in front of Lancer

* Unit 2/Ninja moved to (5,1). In other words, the panel where the Time Mage is currently standing

  Unit 3/Lancer doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (4,0). In other words, the panel where he's currently standing

  Unit 4/Time Mage doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (5,0). In other words the panel right behind her.

Player 2 Team Changes? No

Overall Picture


Player 1 Team Changes? No (Highlighted Panel is where Time Mage initially started)

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (2,3). In other words, one panel to the right of the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (3,3). In other words, one panel to the left of the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (3,2). In other words, one panel to the left and one panel forward of the Knight

*Unit 4/Summoner moved to (2,2). In other words, one panel to the right and one panel forward of the Summoner

Overall Picture


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes (Highlighted Panel is where Time Mage initially started)

*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (8,5). In other words, five panels to the right and three panels forward of the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (7 ,5). In other words, three panels to the right and four panels forward of the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (7,4). In other words, two panels to the right and one panel forward of the Lancer

*Unit 4/Time Mage moved to (8,4). In other words, three panels to the right and two panels forward of the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (3,11). In other words, two panels to the left and two panels forward of the Lancer

Unit 2/Knight doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (3,12). In other words, the panel where he's currently standing

Unit 3/Knight doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (4,12). In other words, the panel where he's currently standing

*Unit 4/Summoner moved to (4,11). In other words, one panel to the right and one panel forward of the Summoner

Overall Picture


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (2,13). In other words, one panel to the right and two panels behind the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (1,13). In other words, one panel to the right and two panels behind the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (2,14). In other words, one panel to the left and three panels behind the Lancer

*Unit4/Time mage moved to (1,14). In other words, one panel to the right and two panels behind the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (2,3). In other words, one panel to the left and four panels behind the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (1,3). In other words, one panel to the left and four panels behind the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (2,2). In other words, one panel to the left of the Knight

*Unit 4/Summoner moved to (1,2). In other words, one panel to the left of the Summoner

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (9,12). In other words, one panel to the left of the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (8,12). In other words, two panels to the left and one forward of the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (9,13). In other words, six panels to the left and one behind the Lancer

*Unit 4/Time Mage moved to (8,13). In other words, six panels to the left and two behind the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
Unit 1/Lancer doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (9,1) In other words the panel where he's currently standing

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (8,1). In other words, one panel to the right and one forward of the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (9,0). In other words, five panels to the right and one behind the Knight

*Unit 4/Summoner moved to (8,0). In other words, seven panels to the right and one behind the Summoner

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (8,1). In other words, five panels to the left of the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (8,0). In other words, seven panels to the left of the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (9,1). In other words, seven panels to the left and one behind the Lancer

*Unit 4/Time Mage moved to (9,0). In other words, six panels to the left and two behind the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (1,9). In other words, five panels to the left and one forward of the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (1,8). In other words, two panels to the right and one forward of the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (0,9). In other words, three panels to the left of the Knight

Unit 4/Summoner doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (0,8). In other words, the panel where she's currently standing

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (8,8). In other words, three panels to the right and two forward of the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (8,9). In other words, five panels to the right and three forward of the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (9,8). In other words, three panels to the right and two forward of the Lancer

*Unit 4/ Time Mage moved to (9,9). In other words, five panels to the right and one forward of the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (4,2). In other words, two panels to the right and two panels forward of the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (3,2). In other words, one panel to the left of the Knight

Unit 3/Knight doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (4,1). In other words, the panel where he's currently standing.

Unit 4/Summoner doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (3,1). In other words, the panel where she's currently standing.

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (1,1). In other words, ten panels to the right and one forward of the Samurai

*Unit 2/Ninja moved to (1,0). In other words, seven panels to the right and one forward of the Ninja

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (0,1). In other words, three panels to the right of the Lancer

*Unit 4/Time Mage moved to (0,0). In other words, two panels to the right and two panels behind the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (9,0). In other words, eleven panels to the left and one forward of the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (9,1). In other words, six panels to the left and one forward of the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (10,0). In other words, four panels to the left of the Knight

Unit 4/Summoner doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (10,1). In other words, the panel where she's currently standing

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Player 1 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Samurai moved to (1,10). In other words, one panel to the left and one forward of the Samurai

Unit 2/Ninja doesn't need to be moved from initial spot (0,10). In other words, the panel where she's currently standing

*Unit 3/Lancer moved to (1,11). In other words, seven panels to the right of the Lancer

*Unit4/Time Mage moved to (0,11). In other words, six panels to the right of the Time Mage

Player 2 Team Changes? Yes
*Unit 1/Lancer moved to (7,1). In other words, five panels to the right and one forward of the Lancer

*Unit 2/Knight moved to (8,1). In other words, five panels to the right and one forward of the Knight

*Unit 3/Knight moved to (7,0). In other words, two panels to the right of the Knight

*Unit 4/Summoner moved to (8,0). In other words, two panels to the right of the Summoner

Overall Picture

Time Mage Initial Position


Silly me, I should've made a video showing the coordinates which would've saved me MANY hours worth of time XD

O well, the deed has been done with those 82 photos.

Edit: Actually, Pride made the changes manually, I just happened to provide the screenshots Phil :P

Looking at all the maps and how they're labeled in size, there's some revisions that should be made for next tourney imo (notably some mediums which could be toned down to smalls).
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

The Damned

1. I'm pretty neutral on removing compatibility versus dialing it down, though I suppose that ultimately, I say we try to see how dialing it down works first. As it is now, Zodiacs count for too much, but I'd rather like think it should still count for something, especially since ARENA is allowing people to just use Serpentarius if they don't want to be bothered.

2. I'd be up for the attempts at change, but that's all I can say at the moment. Actually, that's not true. If some of those formulas are anything like some of rather weird formulas that were posted in general discussion thread before you disappeared, then I think we should avoid formulas that try to incorporate Speed.

3. I'd also support this. However, I don't think that we need to make an opposing pair for every negative status since most negative statuses often have too little of a reward as it is at present. Frog, for instance, shouldn't really get since it already cancels itself and is incredibly difficult to inflict on people (as it should be) while be incredibly be easy to heal. (Because who doesn't have Item, Esuna or Stigma Magic on at least one unit?)

Provided that this is only being down for the benefit of Protect and Shell, then that's a bit...trickier. You would have to pick negative statuses that both actually get used somewhat frequently (Charm, Don't Move, Don't Act, Slow, Petrify, Sleep and, maybe, Death Sentence) while also accepting that you're going to be rather weakening those particular status to get the AI to actually use Protect and/or Shell. (Although, I suppose you could technically buff Undead status if you made it "canceled" by both given Cursed Ring might actually get a use then beyond assisting suicide.)

That said, yeah, at the very least Reraise and Death Sentence need to cancel each other. It's completely stupid that they didn't already do this in vanilla.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

CT5Holy

Welcome back FFM! :D

1. I'm fine with toning down zodiac compatibility. With no 50% boost, we might start seeing higher Faith values to compensate to try and maintain high success rates for Haste, Raise, etc.

3. I don't see how the change would make the AI like casting Protect/Shell more. I'm fine with the change though.
Wait, cancel, or overwrite? ex. Haste overwrites Slow and vice versa. Applying Haste to a Slowed unit doesn't leave it in neutral condition. I'm fine with cancel (heck, I think I'd like to see Haste and Slow cancel each other instead of overwrite).

And, to repost my latest ideas for discussion (which includes an answer to 2)

Knives and Staves are the biggest problems/most useless right now. Knives simply need to be stronger; +1 move just isn't enough. Several staves (and similarly, Poison Rod) rely on a frail mage whacking something for a possibility of an effect. Mages whacking things don't really happen anymore with Move MP-UP, and people would rather have +2 MA/strengthen element/etc anyway.

No abilities use the move stat, either, which makes knives even worse. Is it possible to make Throw Item's range based on the move of the user? I remember there being some discussion about this. Well, even if we did this, people would prefer guns for anti-sandbag. Still fairly good range even with 3 Move. So... Knives need a rehaul =P. One of the new knives could keep a +1 Move bonus (to possibly go with the Throw Item range tweak).

As usual, I have no good ideas for these Item rehauls.

Oh, I was also thinking if we've maybe slapped on too many status immunities to the heavy armor. We're making the tanky, high HP units even harder to deal with by giving them immunities to the most commonly used negative statuses. (mainly Don't Act and Sleep)

What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

FFMaster

Yes, I remember most of what you brought up CT5.

For the Heavy Armor, I think maybe making them immune to certain weaker statii could be a small step in the right direction. We'll see as time goes though.

I remember the discussion about increasing magic range by 1. This would be a huge improvement, letting them stay back while dealing the damage.

Here is a copy/paste of Skip's Item ideas. Whether you like them or not, just post here, say why(please) and maybe suggest a new one.

Knives: (SP + Move + Jump)/2 * WP
Ninja Swords/Longbows: (PA + SP)/2 * WP
Swords: PA * WP
Knight Swords/Katana: (PA * 2 * Brave)/100 * WP
Axe: (PA + (rnd 1..(PA-1)) * WP
Flails: (MA + (rnd 1..(MA-1)) * WP
Rods: MA * WP
Staves (MA * 2 * Faith)/100 * WP
Poles: (MA + Move + Jump)/2 * WP
Books: (MA * 2 * CurMP)/MaxMP * WP
Cloth: (PA * 2 * CurHP)/MaxHP * WP
Spears: (PA + Move + Jump)/2 * WP
Crosbow/Guns: (SP + (rnd 1..(SP-1)) * WP
Handbag: (PA + MA + SP)/3 * WP

I know that Damned hates any formula with Speed in it, and for good reason.
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FFMaster

Current Changelog

GENERAL
- Good/Bad compat now increases/decreases effectiveness by 12.5%
- Best/Worst compat now increases/decreases effectiveness by 25%

JOBS
- Monks can now equip Poles
- Thief loses innate Awareness
- Thief gains innate Flee

ABILITIES
- New movement ability for Thief(Flee: Add 3 move when in critical, 100 JP)
- All Priest, Wizard, Time Mage, Summoner, Oracle and Scholar spell ranges increased by 1
- Auto Potion JP cost reduced to 300
- Stigma Magic is now 2 Range, 0 Vert, Single Target
- Chakra is now 2 Range, 0 Vert, Single Target, 200 JP
- Revive JP cost reduced to 300
- Flare is not reflectable
- Holy is not reflectable
- Demi now deals 33% Max HP damage and now has F(MA*2+210)% chance to hit
- Demi 2 now deals 66% Max HP damage, has F(MA*2+180)% chance to hit, and costs 300 JP
- Lich now deals 33% Max HP damage, has F(MA*2+160)% and is 5 CT
- Shuriken range down to 5
- Katon range down to 5
- Raiton range down to 5
- Suiton range down to 5
- Tornado is now 5 CT
- Quake is now 5 CT

ITEMS
- Crystal Shield gains Cancel: Slow, loses 15 P-EV, loses 10 M-EV
- Diamond Helmet gains Strengthen: Holy, loses 10 HP
- Platina Helmet gains Strengthen Wind, loses 10 HP
- Leather Mantle now correctly absorbs Water
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CT5Holy

June 16, 2011, 03:33:53 am #12 Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 03:50:57 pm by CT5Holy
FFM, I say you should release this new version to get some activity. Next version will have weapon changes + whatever else comes up.
While interesting, I don't like Skip's proposed weapon formulas because it feels needlessly complex.
Oh, what if we had a few weapons in each category have a different formula? You know how 1.3 Octagon Rod is PA*WP instead of the normal MA*WP for sticks? Something like that.
Overall though, I don't think we need huge changes to weapon.
Knives and Staves need the most help! I'm thinking give Staves some Initial: Buffs. This will help the stave-users in small maps, where they are most susceptible, but it won't make a huge difference on large maps. Knives could... +some WP or a better bonus than +1 Move. 25 or 50% Double Blow? (like current 1.3 Katanas. Might be more manageable due to lower WP. And we could always lower WP even more if they get scary) I don't have any great suggestions for knives, unfortunately.

Some random suggestions:
Mime gets innate Unyielding - survivability = more mimed actions = good
Samurai gets innate Two Hands and -1 PA - Samurais get Two Hands back so they'll be more usable. -1 PA is to compensate for innate Two Hands.
Ranged weapons +1 range support ability would be nice
Hmm, what if we raise maximum Faith to 80? Granted, magic is getting a buff due to +1 range. We'll see, I suppose.
+1 MA for Mediator. Because they still suck.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

FFMaster

Well, I'm still currently in exam mode (Wednesday last one) so I haven't actually touched the ISO in a while.

I am personally against different formulae in the same category. Makes you have to watch the tables more =p
Staves getting initial buffs is a nice touch. I wonder how much space I have left though. I think maybe 3 spots.
Mediator still sucks, I agree. They will be even worse when mages get buffed. I'm thinking of adding Mediator to the range buff along with the other mages.
80 Faith... maybe another version. I think we should let the game settle for a bit with weapon/spell changes.

Everything else, I agree with.
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The Damned

(Good luck with exams.)

Damn. I could have sworn that I responded to this already. I guess my mind really is going.

I'll try to do everything in a list this time rather than multi-quote. Not sure whether that's going to be more or less readable:

1. Zodiac Changes: Already said why I agree with this.

2. Job Changes: I'll probably be stealing Innate Flee for Thieves from you. Otherwise, this makes sense, though I'm not sure how much Monks will benefit from Poles.

3. Magic Spell Range +1: Agree with this for everyone but Summoner considering Summoner's AoE, though I doubt that Summoner benefiting will make it OP, especially given that Lich is getting nerfed.

4. Monk Ability Changes: Not sure why Revive is losing it's JP, but as long as Stigma Magic and Chakra get balanced, that's all I really care about.

5. Flare and Holy Ignore Reflect: This is absolutely necessary as far I'm concerned.

6. Percentage-Based Spells: I hope this makes Demi or Demi 2 useful and Lich not a better version of Death. Speaking of Death, as I said before, I don't think anything can be done to save it.

7. Ninjutsu and Sage Changes: These seem for the better as well, though Ninjutsu might have to have its range further decreased.

8. Item Changes: These also seem for the better, though to be honest, I don't recall what Crystal Shield was like to begin with.

9. Potential Stave Changes: Initial Buffs kinda of need Item Attribute room...which there isn't. To be fair, though, I'm not sure what else can be done to change them.

10. Potential Knife Changes: Double blow is probably the best bet to me, though I actually not that much of a fan of "double blow" either.

11. Mime and Unyielding: Yes, I believe that Mime needs Unyielding.

12. Samurai and Two Hands: I'm...kinda of weary of this, actually. I'd have to look at the item list again and think about it for a bit to agree whether or not it's worth it or it just limits them more.

13. Maximum Faith at 80: There seems to be no reason to do this, especially since it doesn't fix the change of magic being horribly ineffective against units with 40 Faith still. That needs to need to change first rather than ratcheting up Faith. +1 range seems like enough change for now anyway.

14. Potential Mediator Changes: Yeah, I'd argue they need +1 MA, +1 range increase AND another Innate given that Monster Talk is pretty damn worthless without monsters around. As paradoxical as it seems with magic probably still needing a buff, maybe give them innate Magic Defend UP since they're a master of words? It's something I've been considering for my own Mediator, but my RSM (and patch in general) is in such disarray that I've yet to test it. So....

Quote from: FFMaster on May 27, 2011, 05:42:17 amI know that Damned hates any formula with Speed in it, and for good reason.


Meh, I hate everything.

But, yeah, formulas with Speed with them seem no good, at least with things like Speed Save, Quickening and the new, lessened Cheer Song and Slow Dance around.

Skip's other formulas...I'll have to look over those again and think about them. I'm rather horrible with formulas/formulae.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Dome

Sorry for the off topic, but where I can find this hack?
QuoteGood/Bad compat being reduced to 12.5%. Best/Worst compat being reduced to 25%

I want to put it into OrgASM

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Squidgy

I find my poor Franz unit lacking after Shuriken abuse was removed... but with these suggested changes, he might be enjoying a gun now. ;)

If Zodiacs are getting changed (totally agree with), then shouldn't Brave/Faith get the same treatment, such that the difference in boosting/lowering is min/maximum 25%? Also if Un-Truth stuff exists, it'd be nice to have Faith scores centered on 50. Isn't Brave centered on 50 for neutral damage?

All for more movement abilities, but Flee sounds scary with AI use. Were Move-HP/MP tweaked already? I remember ignoring the Reaction and Movement slots of some chars due to the low cost options due to seeming too bad for the cost... but I've forgotten any examples.

Two Hands/Two Swords: The incentive to use these seems low due to item restrictions. Usually the few you can dual weild or two sword have half the power of single hand options, making the net damage boost nil. I'd say just have 1-2 items per weapon set which you can use both on... Though Two Hands would just be weaker all-around if that was the case. Suppose that's not a bad thing if the JP cost is lower?

I'll get more stuff down later.

FFMaster

What do you guys think of this by the way? (Won't be added in 130, just something I've been considering since yesterday)

UNIT PLACEMENT
All 4 units will be placed so that they are close to each other and each unit will be standing next to at least 1 teammate. The only formations are the square formation and the T formation.
-Unit 1 will be closest to the enemy.
-Unit 2 will be second closest to the enemy. If Unit 1 and Unit 2 are equally close to the enemy, then Unit 2 will be placed closest to a nearby high panel, if one exists.
-Unit 3 will be third closest to the enemy.
-Unit 4 will be fourth closest to the enemy. If Unit 3 and Unit 4 are equally close to the enemy, then Unit 4 will be placed closest to a nearby high panel, if one exists.



Arena 130 will be released by the end of the week.
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formerdeathcorps

July 29, 2011, 02:30:32 am #18 Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 02:57:04 am by formerdeathcorps
Still think the Zodiac compat reduction is a terrible idea.


Common Argument 1) This reduces the aspect of skill.
a) There's luck in every game.  Even in chess, luck is quite often an occurrence; the same person may make a different move in the same position on a different day especially if the position is complex and the sequence of moves that arrived to the position and the opponent was different.  People don't always play the position.  The FFT AI isn't entirely deterministic either.
b) A championship team should be a team that can defeat a "counter-strategy" team at least 40% of the time, where compats play are factored into "counter-strategy".  If you look at S3-S5, this is true for the teams that did win.
c) It affects everyone.  If you build a risky compat strategy, you should expect the chance for a quick downfall.  If you build a more varied one, you should expect to have a more unpredictable spread.  If you choose Serpentarius, you should expect to actually use higher faith values to guarantee early game haste.  Furthermore, it takes some skill to understand how to match your squad's objectives to the compat layouts.

Common Argument 2) This isn't fair.
a) See 1c) and 1b).  EVen if you run the risk of losing to an objectively weaker squad on compats (like S5's Lijj vs. OGB), you also have the chance of crushing an objectively even or stronger squad (like S5's fdc vs. Barren).  Both chances need to be assessed, and not only the chance to lose.  In theory, the average squad should break even, but you can certainly design a non-typical team that benefits more off one design more than another.
b) If I want to avoid all risks, I choose Serpentarius.  But that means I can't get the benefits of a squad that gets guaranteed haste or enhanced healing.  To this, I do concede this probably isn't fair and perhaps Serpentarius should always have good compat with itself, but then again...risk nothing, gain nothing.

Common Argument 3) FFT Arena is too tanky, or damage output is too high/unpredictable.  Besides, shouldn't we encourage higher Fa?
a) At best/worst compat, no doubt this is true.  That doesn't mean this is ALWAYS true.
b) Reducing the amount of healing to make Arena go faster doesn't solve the root problem why tanking is more extreme in Arena than in 1.3; it's actually the fury mechanic (which centers normal damage at 65 brave, rather than 55 brave, which is average).  Of course, many of you think 1.3's damage was too high overall, so this may not be considered a bad thing, especially when mages are less squishy.
c) Brave currently has 2 good uses if high (reactions and more damage dealt), and only 1 good use if low (less damage taken), but you don't need to use a strongly reactive counter.  Thus, brave is currently even.
Faith currently has 1 good use if high (more damage/status dealt), and only 1 good use if low (less damage/status taken), but only casters need high faith because physical damage dealers have skills and weapons that don't use faith that deal almost as good damage (without MP costs or charge times).  Thus, the scales are currently tipped in favor of low faith, except on casters, but casters tend to be weak overall classes.  Thus, it's more efficient to use 4 physical units with low faith.
If you want to fix this problem, resolve this rooted inequality; casters < physicals.  I personally suggest more UnFa spells and a weaker Flare so physicals can't simply defensively outlast casters.  You can also try tipping the scales towards high faith by getting some (if not all reactions) to trigger on Fa%.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Malroth

Carve model proc should be changed from Petrify to either Slow or Don't Move