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♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ FFT Arena♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ AI Tournament Season 4 ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

Started by Barren, June 11, 2015, 08:36:46 am

TrueLight

Ouch. Just got completely slaughtered by the AOE damage. Mediator didn't dodge enough and perfectly timed Esunas from that Geomancer did not help me. Also, TWO missed Raise 2s in a row? Thanks RNG. GG Reks.

Time to see how I do in the Loser's Bracket.
  • Modding version: PSX

Zotis

Quote from: Barren on June 18, 2015, 08:18:56 pm
I'm not familiar with the rules of chess but maybe we can do some kind of unique gimmick tournament. My only concern would be that if its too complicated for everyone to understand
You don't need a preliminary tournament.  Like in FIFA or fighting game tournaments, everyone is divided into small groups called "pools."  Each person plays everyone else in their pool and the people with the most wins move into the tournament bracket while the others get eliminated.  The tournament organizer can spread out the familiar top players so that pools are not too stacked.  There are big advantages to having pools.  Less skilled players who will likely get eliminated early in the bracket can actually get more than just two games, making it more fun for them.  Seating sets the tournament up so that the most skilled players make it further and meet up closer to the end of the tournament, so the top 8 rounds are more intense instead of having top players knock each other out early, or a new player having to face a top player in the first round of loosers.  Those can be a bit discouraging.  Overall it balances everything more for both the newer players and the veterans, and it makes for a more entertaining.

I think it could be something worth considering in the future.  I play Super Smash Bros. Melee competitively and that's the way they do it.  You and CT5Holy facing each other so early is pretty rough because you're both such veterans and obviously among the best players here.

Shintroy

ranged/magic team vs high speed status
Pretty even looking match up. Truelight's team is more on the RNG side though. I definitely want to see Reks's squire go far so I'm betting on AoE taking it.

R1 - Pretty scary round. Truelight couldn't deal enough damage or land enough status to gain momentum. Either a well timed Esuna or a horribly timed Mimic Daravon by the AI. That Geo/Whm is definitely the MVP of the round either way.

R2 - Two hit KOs with chiri and draw out followed by two missed Raise 2s? Quick round for Reks.

GG.  Not an upset in my book. Gotta love that Squire and Geo/Whm.


Free Win


I'm definitely with Zotis on pools. We had a lot of last minute new players enter the tournament and random bracket seeding with a lot of early upsets. With pools there would've still been some upsets sure, but there wouldn't have been as many mismatches due to there being a near equal amount of new and veteran players. We could've done pools of four players with a 2:2 ratio of veteran and new players. Veterans could've been players that have entered an Arena tournament in the past, while new players could've been players that haven't been in a tournament before. It's too late for it now, but for the next tournament, next year maybe, pools would be the better choice then completely random brackets.

Zotis you compete in melee tournaments? Pretty cool. I used to compete in melee between 05-07, brawl for the first two years, and I play top end Street Fighter 4 players online too. I was the best Dudley before Smug took over. He's so good.
Some day my people will be free.

Zotis

Quote from: Shintroy on June 18, 2015, 09:58:20 pmZotis you compete in melee tournaments? Pretty cool. I used to compete in melee between 05-07, brawl for the first two years, and I play top end Street Fighter 4 players online too. I was the best Dudley before Smug took over. He's so good.


Melee is still going strong, in fact the community is growing.  A lot has changed since 07 though.  The metagame is pretty nutz.  I've been playing for about 8 months and I've been to over a dozen tournaments.  Toronto has the biggest scene in Canada and the top 5 Canadian players, so I get a good amount of practice.

I wish we could get tournaments going a bit more frequently for Tactics.  It's hard to stay invested when tournaments are only once a year.  I'm tempted to start recording again.  Tactics has always been my favorite RPG.

silentkaster

Quote from: Zotis on June 18, 2015, 09:34:25 pm
You don't need a preliminary tournament.  Like in FIFA or fighting game tournaments, everyone is divided into small groups called "pools."  Each person plays everyone else in their pool and the people with the most wins move into the tournament bracket while the others get eliminated.  The tournament organizer can spread out the familiar top players so that pools are not too stacked.  There are big advantages to having pools.  Less skilled players who will likely get eliminated early in the bracket can actually get more than just two games, making it more fun for them.  Seating sets the tournament up so that the most skilled players make it further and meet up closer to the end of the tournament, so the top 8 rounds are more intense instead of having top players knock each other out early, or a new player having to face a top player in the first round of loosers.  Those can be a bit discouraging.  Overall it balances everything more for both the newer players and the veterans, and it makes for a more entertaining.

I think it could be something worth considering in the future.  I play Super Smash Bros. Melee competitively and that's the way they do it.  You and CT5Holy facing each other so early is pretty rough because you're both such veterans and obviously among the best players here.


Yes, or even have a point system. Like, this year we already have an elimination and two teams haven't even been in action yet. A single or double elimination I believe is ideal for more competitive games whereas round robin and point systems give more flexibility and allow things like RNG and map selection to be evened out.

Like for example, my days are numbered since my next opponent will be either Mudvayne or Zotis and yeah...both are very strong opponents. But with points, you could lose a match or two and still have a shot at winning or placing high in the tournament.

Speaking of which, Barren or TrueLight, please be on standby if Mudvayne does not win for that particular match. Thanks :)
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Jumza

We did pools for the SSC tournament, didn't we? That worked pretty well (though I didn't make it out of my pool :( )
  • Modding version: PSX
Nyzer: Alma teleports out of her own possessed body.
Raijinili: Remember that you're telling a modding community that the game they love could use some fixing.

Kurosabes

I don't really know how all these methods are done, but I'll propose something of my own:

QuoteEach participant starts at 0 points. A set number of rounds are prepared depending on the amount of participants. After each round, participants will be moved up or down in the rankings and face either a weaker or stronger opponent, in order to have a chance of climbing back up. At the end of the rounds, the top XX% will face off in a single-elimination bracket.

Decisive win (2-0): +3
Win (2-1): +2
Loss (1-2): +1
Decisive loss (0-2): +0


It really depends how long the organisers would want this to go on for. For example, The top XX% could be top 25%, 50% or a set number like 8.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Shintroy

Quote from: Zotis on June 18, 2015, 10:59:09 pm
Melee is still going strong, in fact the community is growing.  A lot has changed since 07 though.  The metagame is pretty nutz.  I've been playing for about 8 months and I've been to over a dozen tournaments.  Toronto has the biggest scene in Canada and the top 5 Canadian players, so I get a good amount of practice.

I wish we could get tournaments going a bit more frequently for Tactics.  It's hard to stay invested when tournaments are only once a year.  I'm tempted to start recording again.  Tactics has always been my favorite RPG.


All I'm saying is. I hope Leffen takes EVO. I've been subbed to just about every top end melee channel for a couple of years now. Less than a month to go until EVO mate. I can't wait.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on June 19, 2015, 12:52:12 am
I don't really know how all these methods are done, but I'll propose something of my own:

It really depends how long the organisers would want this to go on for. For example, The top XX% could be top 25%, 50% or a set number like 8.


Pools are basically miniature tournaments before the main bracket where only the top two make it out into the tournament bracket (winners and losers). Tournament Organizers will usually do things like not have too many people from the same region in the same pool, not have a pool of nothing but killers to avoid upsets, a pool with only one killer that'll basically get a free ride into the tournament bracket. I believe tournament brackets are supposed to be in factors of 8 too. So we would've had to do pools of 6 people with an even amount of vets and new players.

Maybe after this tournament we could do ranked matches that would go towards our seeding in S5. I like the idea of ranked matches a lot, but I'm not sure how it would work in Arena.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_%28sports%29
Some day my people will be free.

Reks

Quote from: Shintroy on June 19, 2015, 02:55:28 am
All I'm saying is. I hope Leffen takes EVO. I've been subbed to just about every top end melee channel for a couple of years now. Less than a month to go until EVO mate. I can't wait.

Pools are basically miniature tournaments before the main bracket where only the top two make it out into the tournament bracket (winners and losers). Tournament Organizers will usually do things like not have too many people from the same region in the same pool, not have a pool of nothing but killers to avoid upsets, a pool with only one killer that'll basically get a free ride into the tournament bracket. I believe tournament brackets are supposed to be in factors of 8 too. So we would've had to do pools of 6 people with an even amount of vets and new players.

Maybe after this tournament we could do ranked matches that would go towards our seeding in S5. I like the idea of ranked matches a lot, but I'm not sure how it would work in Arena.
---------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_%28sports%29


Still depends on what one would consider a 'veteran'
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Kurosabes

Quote from: Shintroy on June 19, 2015, 02:55:28 amMaybe after this tournament we could do ranked matches that would go towards our seeding in S5. I like the idea of ranked matches a lot, but I'm not sure how it would work in Arena.


Rated matches could work well with Arena. They would (most probably) be on a separate thread from the existing sticky, and more organised. Then the old thread would become more of a practice thread than anything else to prepare newer teams for rated matches.

Edit: I see one problem with that though. If we see another surge of new players in the next season like what's happened just now, rated teams that have racked up points would have a seed advantage whereas the newcomers are pretty much doomed from the start.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Shintroy

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on June 19, 2015, 03:20:12 am
Rated matches could work well with Arena. They would (most probably) be on a separate thread from the existing sticky, and more organised. Then the old thread would become more of a practice thread than anything else to prepare newer teams for rated matches.

I've always thought of the matches outside of the annual tournament as exhibition matches too. There could be another thread for ranked matches, but it could work in the existing video discussion thread.

Quote
Edit: I see one problem with that though. If we see another surge of new players in the next season like what's happened just now, rated teams that have racked up points would have a seed advantage whereas the newcomers are pretty much doomed from the start.


There's two ways to deal with new wildcard players.

1. Use pools and count them as unranked players. (you'd still use seeded ranking, but we'd have to evenly distribute them into the pools.
2. Host a preliminary tournament with only the new players entering. Depending on the amount in the tournament bracket, list them as bottom seeded players.

Either way new players are highly likely to only get two matches in a tournament. That's just how it goes if you're bottom seed.  It's really up to the uploaders to decide how tournaments will run since they're the ones who have to record, edit, and upload matches. I'd like the seeded bracket since the matches in the beginning of the tournament are highly likely to be short.

Quote from: Reks on June 19, 2015, 03:11:16 am
Still depends on what one would consider a 'veteran'


Since this is Arena, I'd count veterans as players who have entered a tournament in the past. That's not a reliable way to identify players, but it's all we have at the moment without a ranking system. I'd prefer a ranking system that resets at the end of every annual tournament. We can make a thread about how ranking, and ranked matches could work too.

I'm most interested in how we would deal with counter pickers, or players that could make a team built to specifically counter a certain team.  I think the best idea would be have a player challenge another player and both sending in their teams to an uploader that would volunteer on handling arena matches. That way there's no way of either player knowing about the other's team and countering it. If it just so happens you submitted a Holy/Silver bow team and your opponent entered with a Magic Ring/Cursed Ring team then that's on you.

I'd love ranked matches if they went something like that.
Some day my people will be free.

Barren

I believe we did have a top 5 placement before if I recall. Like for example season 1 of arena the top five were Wiz, CT5Holy, myself, Gaignun and champion Avalanche. I was ranked no. 3 as the guy who went from the beginning of the loser's bracket all the way to the last loser's bracket match. It's been for years my best performance as a AI tournament player. I might be able to replicate that or hopefully win the whole thing but I'm likely not (unless the rng wants me to win this year).
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Zotis

Typically the tournament organizer arranges pools based on his knowledge of the players and who he expects to win.  Unknown players get seated low.  If they turn out to be really good, then that just makes for an interesting upset.

It's hard to have exhibition matches when you don't have a league or a whole season.  A lot of people only show up for tournaments.

It would be nice to have a cash prize.  That would draw a lot more people.  Who knows, in the future I may even be willing to offer $100 towards the winnings just to support this kind of scene's potential growth.

Barren

It depends if money at that time is right. We did however have a win/loss system where back at the SSC tournament I hosted a few years ago. So maybe next time we do a tourney (if we have time for another one this summer) we can do like a SSC or something with swiss or round robin rules.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Malroth

I'm Working on an Excel spreadsheet that can generate Elo rating changes based on round performance, and am planning on using the season 3 and 4 tournament results to come up with initial rankings for the participants,  it's a small match pool so the rankings will be skewed toward the middle especially for the ones eliminated early but those could be used in any ranked match thread that comes up later.


Zotis


Malroth


yeah i knew i was boned as soon as I saw that the opening was a medium map, My team is awesome when it can either reach range on the first move or get a couple rounds in before closing but my high speed setup means my guys just walk up and die when they start a little over spell range,  seperation did me no favors either, then in round 2 they went for comets instead of summons on the one good round they had,  Well I pretty much was sure I'd loose to CT5 or Barren anyway so meh

Shintroy

Stalling Mime vs Two Swords Mime
Everyone's a threat on this team. The Ninja can probably break my gear. The squire can either OHKO or sleep. The Monk can't be affected by any status besides slow. The Mime gets to mimic quickening, and every two swords attack if it's in range. Soft Counter maybe?

R1 - God opening for reinoe. My Mime and Time Mage advanced a bit too much and got destroyed for it. It got pretty ugly from there. You don't want to be at a unit disadvantage against a quickening mime team. Surprised it took so long for reinoe to close it out.

R2 - Great opening for me this time. Everyone's regen and hasted and I even got a few status effects off. Called it once the monk was down and all of reinoe's units were put to sleep... What was up with regenerator not overriding the poison?

R3 - Pretty neutral start, Early death by the Ninja, but it seems like reinoe designed her to advance and be a target in the beginning. Didn't get a chance fully revive her due to the monk dropping steal heart and the squire getting put to sleep.

GG. Hopefully this is the last time we see mime on mime crimes.



Brutal knowing the video's six minutes long. I do agree with the map being medium sized and not large. Could've probably taken it to the third round if it wasn't for this.

Some day my people will be free.

reinoe

Because my squire has Light Robe, Regen is technically always in effect.  So when my unit tries to get Regen it can't be applied because it's already there.  That's why my unit kept poison.  That's also why I said my team is completely unfinished.  Light Robe is supposed to be White Robe among other things... I pretty much submitted a rough draft but because My laptop broke down I couldn't refine.

Well, my match was a comedy of errorS like I expected.  Every time my Mime got put to sleep I died a little inside.  There were even errors I hadn't spotted.  My squire needed to go before the mime, not after.  Speaking of the squire I found it hilarious when he kept intentionally placing himself in a way that the mime would cast wall on the chemist.  I don't mean to sound so negative, it was still a fun match, and shintroy definitely earned the win.

GG and good luck in your future matches!
My dreams can come true!