Final Fantasy Hacktics

AeroGP runs it now

Quote from: "Zodiac"The idea is Asmo's:

An AI Tournament patch.
Yes, right now we're using 1.3 as a base for AI tournaments, but there are many cons to that. 1.3 needs to be rebalanced for multiplayer use. Just look: many skills cannot be accessed, golem is utterly broken, only the top available items are used, no tier 3 monsters, etc.
The goal of such a patch would be to create an item pool where every item has a different use, but in overall is not better or worse than another item in the same category. The same would go for monsters; tier 3 would not be superior to tier 1, only different. Everything would be balanced for multiplayer use only.

Okay ye lazy bastards, guess I'll start this damn topic.

Changelist:

ASM:
Uses Final Fantasy ASM'd as a base. (See this thread (http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3953) for more information)

• ASM'd growths implemented, EXCEPT Speed.
• Jump increase to 3/2 still requires Spears.
• Axes get new formula ([(0 + (1..PA)) + PA] * WP); Flails retain 1.3 formula ([WP] * WP)
• "Equip X" is unchanged. (No Equip Crossbow+Bow, for instance)
• 1.3 Sage class is used.
• If possible, Two-Hands hacked to only increase WP by 50%; otherwise, Samurai lose innate Two-Hands.
• Thieves lose innate Concentrate. Instead, they gain Vanish: 1 CTR, Self-inflicted Transparent.
• Bulldemon family gains Counter reaction, since Caution is now innate to all monsters.
• Other ASM'd skillset changes and new abilities are PENDING. (These need to be discussed for competitive purposes)

Fury Hack is also inputted at Brave+35% damage done and taken.

Jobs:
Thieves/Ninjas lose 1 Speed.
Mime is allowed with average PA/MA. (Only one mime per team)

Items:

Daggers
Daggers DO NOT lose +1 Speed
Orichalcum is 9 WP, 5% W-EV, +2 MA
Assassin Dagger is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Death Sentence
Air Knife is 11 WP, 5% W-EV, Wind-elemental, 25% Sleep

Ninja Swords
Hidden Knife is 7 WP, 0% W-EV, Initial: Transparent (it sucks, but whatev)
Spell Edge is 12 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Don't Move
Iga Knife is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Wind-elemental; Boost: Earth
Koga Knife is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Earth-elemental; Boost: Wind

Swords
All swords have 10% W-EV
Ancient Sword is 14 WP, 25% Don't Move
Ice Brand is 13 WP, Ice-elemental
Rune Blade is 11 WP, +2 MA
Blood Sword is 10 WP, Absorbs Damage as HP (Undead reversal, Not usable with Two-Swords)

Knight Swords
Defender is 18 WP, 30% W-EV, Cancel: Don't Move, Don't Act
Save the Queen is 16 WP, 25% W-EV, Always: Protect

Katanas
(This is actually pending, and I'm looking for some really good ideas on what to do with them)
Murasame is 12 WP, 20 W-EV, +1 MA, Water-elemental, Restores HP
Heaven's Cloud is 13 WP, 20 W-EV, +1 PA, Wind-elemental
Kikuichimonji is 16 WP, 20 W-EV, 25% Silence

Axes
Axes are now 1-handed, but cannot be used with two-swords or two-hands.
Giant Axe is 7 WP, 25% W-EV, Earth-elemental, Boost: Earth, Wind, Water (note: no Axe proc)
Slasher 12 WP, 30% W-EV, 25% Decapitate

Rods
Thunder/Flame/Ice Rod are 4 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Bolt/Fire/Ice2
Poison Rod is 8 WP, 5% W-EV, 100% Poison
Wizard Rod is 4 WP, 5% W-EV, +2 MA
Faith Rod is 4 WP, 20% W-EV, Always: Faith, 25% Faith

Staves
Healing Staff is 8 WP, 10% W-EV, Restore HP, Boost: Holy (note: NOT holy-elemental)
Wizard Staff is 4 WP, 10% W-EV, +2 MA
Gold Staff is 10 WP, 10% W-EV, +2 PA, 25% Dispel

Flails
Flails lose Two Hands compatibility, but DO NOT return to regular random formula
Flame Whip is 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Fire-elemental, Boost: Fire
Morning Star is 11 WP, 10% W-EV

Guns
Mythril Gun is 9 WP, 5% W-EV, +1 MA, 25% Slow
Blaze Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Ice/2/3
Glacier Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Fire/2/3
Blast Gun is 12, 5% W-EV, 5-Range, Casts Bolt/2/3

Crossbows
Hunting Bow is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 25% Second Attack
Gastrafitis is 14 WP, 5% W-EV

Longbows
Long Bow is 12 WP, 5% W-EV, 5-Range
Windslash Bow is 10 WP, 5% W-EV, Wind-elemental
Mythril Bow is 11 WP, 5% W-EV, +1 PA

Harps
Lamia Harp is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Confuse
Bloody Strings is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, Absorbs Damage as HP (Undead reversal)
Fairy Harp is 13 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Charm

Books
Battle Dict is 13 WP,  0% W-EV, 25% Zombie
Monster Dict is 11 WP, 0% W-EV, 25% Sleep
Papyrus Plate is 9 WP, 0% W-EV, 25% Petrify

Spears
Partisan is 14 WP, 20% W-EV, 25% Cancel: Protect (note: cannot be thrown)
Oberisk is 13, 10% W-EV, +1 PA
Holy Lance is 11, 10% W-EV, Holy-elemental, 25% Holy

Sticks
Ivory Rod is 10 WP, 15% W-EV, +2 MA
Octagon Rod is 12 WP, 25% W-EV, Cancel: Frog (100%)
Whale Whisker is 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Water-elemental

Bags
All bags are 12 WP, 0 W-EV
C Bag is +1 MA
FS Bag is +2 PA
P Bag is Always: Regen (maybe Initial: Regen, we'll see)
H Bag is Half: all elements

Cloths
All cloths are 0 WP, 35% W-EV, Initial: Defend
Persia is Always: Protect
Cashmere is Always: Shell
Ryozan Silk is Initial: Haste (wanted Always: Regen, but... =/)

Throwables
All throwables are 9 WP, except Shuriken which is 11 WP.

Shields
Ice Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Weak: Fire
Fire Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Weak: Ice
Gold Shield is 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Thunder, Weak: Earth
Aegis Shield is 10% P-EV, 50% M-EV, +1 MA, Cancel: Silence
Crystal Shield is 25% P-EV, 20% M-EV, +1 PA, Cancel: Stop

Hemlets
Platina Helmet is 95 HP, 0 MP, +1 PA
Circlet is 115 HP, 25 MP, +1 MA
Crystal Helmet is 150 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Sleep

Hats
Twist Headband is 56 HP, 0 MP, +2 PA
Black Hood is 100 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Don't Move, Don't Act
Golden Hairpin is 80 HP, 50 MP, +1 MA, Cancel: Silence
Thief Hat is 45 HP, 0 MP, +1 Speed, Cancel: Charm
Flash Hat, 30 HP, 25 MP, +1 MA, +1 Speed
Ribbon is 20 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: All negative statuses

Armor
Carabini Mail is 115 HP, 0 MP, +1 PA
Crystal Mail is 170 HP, 0 MP, Cancel: Petrify
Reflect Mail is 145 HP, 0 MP, Always: Reflect

Clothes
Power Sleeve is 70 HP, 0 MP, +2 PA
Earth Clothes is 85 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Earth, Boost: Earth
Black Costume is 100 HP, 0 MP, Absorb: Fire, Cancel: Stop
Rubber Costume is 50 HP, Absorb: Thunder, Cancel: Don't Move

Robes
Wizard Robe is 30 HP, 22 MP, +2 MA
White Robe is 45 HP, 60 MP, Half: Thunder, Fire, Ice
Black Robe is 60 HP, 45 MP, Boost: Thunder, Fire, Ice
Light robe is 55 HP, 50 MP, Always: Regen, Weak: Darkness (apparently this isn't enough...)

Accessories
Germinas Boots is +1 Move, +1 Jump
Rubber Shoes is 30% M-EV, +1 Move, Cancel: Thunder
Sprint Shoes is +1 Speed
Bracer is +2 PA
Magic Gauntlets is +2 MA
Reflect Ring is Always: Reflect
Defense Ring is Cancel: Sleep, Berserk, Death Sentence
Magic Ring is +1 MA, Cancel: Silence, Absorb: Earth, Wind (note: Absorb: Water is now removed)
Angel Ring is Initial: Reraise, Cancel: Blind, Dead
Diamond Armlet is +1 PA, +1 MA, Cancel: Slow
Jade Armlet is Cancel: Stop, Petrify
108 Gems is Cancel: Blood Suck, Undead, Frog, Poison, Boost: All elements
N-Kai Armlet is Cancel: Confusion, Charm, Half: Darkness
Wizard Mantle is 10% P.EV, 20% M.EV, +1 MA
Elf Mantle is 15% P.EV, 15% M.EV, Initial: Transparent
Feather Mantle is 20% P.EV, 10% M.EV, Always: Float
(Perfumes are dead; Feather Boots is dead until I can think of a boost to give it)

Abilities:
Charm duration is ASM'd implementation.
Potion is BANNED (or whatever equivalent we come up with so that Hi-Potion (70 HP) is the minimum potion for Auto-Potion).
Cure4 now only heals one unit.
Ice/Fire/Bolt4 are now 10 CT and can hit the caster
Meteor is 12 CT, Dmg_F(MA*45), 70 MP Cost, Hits Allies
Drain is both vanilla Drain and 1.3 Diminish (Dark-elemental, 33% damage healed as hp, Undead Reversal)
Pray Faith and Doubt Faith are now 1 CT
Salamander/Leviathan are Dmg_F(MA*13), 3 AOE
Golem is now 6 CT with Caster Faith/100*(MA+10%) to hit
Zodiac is Dmg_F(MA*47), 10 CT, 99 MP Cost
Chirijiraden is MA*15, Hits Allies and Caster
Last Song is 20% to hit
Nameless Song loses Random Flags
Nameless Dance is now 10% to hit and loses random hits flag
Throw Axe is back in Throw Skillset

Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"The goal of such a patch would be to create an item pool where every item has a different use, but in overall is not better or worse than another item in the same category. The same would go for monsters; tier 3 would not be superior to tier 1, only different. Everything would be balanced for multiplayer use only.

So, we should take every uberpowa item and ability, and nerf it a bit, so nothing is truly uberbroken, I guess...

Context is HUGE.  Are we assuming to still be level 35, in a 4v4 match with AI control?

Yes, here, we'll discuss what to change, how to change it, and then change it to test. Right now, we're in discussion time, but we'll assume that it's 4v4 AI matches with AI control. Level is to be decided.

ok, then... regarding the job trees:

Speed and jobs (and items):

Fast mages are horrible.  The worst possible opener would be for a mage to go before a melee goes, march into the middle of the field, charge some big ass spell, and then promptly die from the charging debuff.  

Plus... Priest, while 8 speed at level 35 in 1.3, does have a 110 SPM and usually is 1 speed point ahead of the 100 SPM jackbutts.  Additionally at level 35 being at 100 SPM isn't *that* big of a liability.  So I suggest dropping the +1 sp off carabini mail.  This enables all the mages to equip +Sp gear if desired, and prohibits Knight/Lancer/Samu from having +1 sp from head/armor.  Priest and Time Mage are also the only mage classes that should have higher SPMs, because haste/protect/shell can be reduced to 1 CTR with short charge, ensuring minimal liability.  Oracle is a contender, but for the life of me I can't ever prompt them to cast blind over ANY other spell.  But at least priests with slightly better SPC and armored units without +Sp armor fixes that gap.

Regarding reactions and movements, both absorb used MP and critical quick certainly have their places, and I wouldn't call jump +1/2 worthwhile.  And this is more just classes themselves... there just simply aren't that many reactions for mages in the first place, much less useful ones (they share about the same worthwhile:useless ratio).  Hm.  Swap Dragon Spirit over to Priest and give Squires Caution for starters.

Regarding damage output... just remove innate 2h/DW from Samu and Ninja.  They'll still do comparable damage with the rest, and samu is half there for draw out anyways so it can lose some single-target strength anyways.  Flare/Holy/Flare2 will become the top dogs but they'll still be marred by charge time and MP cost.  

For items... EVERY item with a different use is a stretch -- there's only so much that can be done with gear.  But currently there's maybe 2 decent weapon choices per slot, and 3 head/chest slots for light/heavy armor.  Using robes as an example, 3/4 of them  can be brought into the fold by simply normalizing their HP/MP stat boosts:

Robes - All add 70 HP and 50 MP.  
Light Robe - Regen
Black Robe - Boost Fire/Ice/Lit
White Robe - Half Fire/Ice/Lit
Cham Robe - Absorb:Holy, Cancel:dead
Wizard Robe - +1 MA
Robe of Lord - 85 HP, 80 MP.  No stat boost.

Past that I have no clue how to make Silk/Linen worthwhile.  But we can do similar things to the other armors.  Weapons... probably 3 or 4 per slot is a good idea; through a mix of WP, add:status/procs, and +X stats.

I'm thinking about how to balance out weapons, whether it be added status effects, procs, WP difference, or stat boosts. The thing is, there's tons of weapons to balance, and it's hard making everything unique.

This may be a crazy idea... but what about giving each class it's own set of unique items? Like Knight, Geomancer, and whoever else gets swords get different ones available, each having different perks to using them? This kind of reminds me of Soul Calibur, with each person having similar weapons, but different styles. This could make it more interesting.

Here's a possible idea. Geomancer Sword could give a different element boost, but with a slightly lower WP, say 10 instead of what a Knight could have, like 12. On the other hand, a Knight's basic sword could give it a speed point, and has more WP. The idea is having weapons fitting needs of the class. This only will work because of it being an Arena patch, as there's no way to diversify weapons that specifically ingame. It's not like you're giving a NPC random.

Here are my ideas:
- For ranged weapons we can increase/decrease the attack range
- For daggers we can place 25% add status
- For the rest we can increase the Cast spell on hit to 50/75/100% and add fitting skills.
- Staves/Harps can add positive status by 100%
- Make armor add something special but prevent some positive statuses.
- Reflect Shield: Always reflect but crap evasion
- Make bad status HARDER to recover from, but offer more options. Esuna/Remedy/Sitgma Magic anyone? The weaker items like Antidote can stay all 100%.

Asmo had the idea to add elemental weaknesses to more things, and I want elemental boosts to more things, so that mages and low level black magic have more effectiveness in it.

Look through the list of items, and we are only using about 10% of them currently. We have a lot we can edit.

Looking through the patcher, there are 80 item attributes we can edit. There are 239 editable items. 127 weapons, 112 equipment.

16 Shields, 32 Access, 64 pieces of armor.

Also, are we agreed at everyone being level 35?

Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"Also, are we agreed at everyone being level 35?

Why not 99?

99 is a poor choice in 1.3 because of stat scaling -- everything is so fast that charge-time abilities are nigh-unless, and the MA/PA to HP ratio is a bit different than at 35.  Basically it'd be a one-shot fest across the board and the metagame would de-evolve.  We're going for balance, not power.

A more radical idea would be to simply make these level 35-like stats level 1.  We can modifiy the pre-raw stats and then we can never have to mess with growths and instead focus purely on multipliers for class balancings.  Additionally this also means we'd be able to pick up people from the soldier office already prepped for action, zodiac/br/fa permitting.  No need for exp or JP grinding, imo.  Then we can unlock all the gear right at the start, do some attack.out and world map editing to go to the deep dungeon (anywhere, really, but this is most compatibile with zodiac's latest creation, I think), and just barrel through fights as desired.

instead of trying to make ALL the items useful, we might as well just make like 5 of each, or something like that. it would reduce the need to come up with lots of variations to make them all useful.

Quote- For daggers we can place 25% add status

I don't think this is going to be enough. in an AI tourney I wouldn't want the items I choose to rely on luck, I would rather choose something with stat boosts that I know are going to work, rather than hope the enemy is blinded/poisoned/death sentenced/etc.
giving daggers more weapon power wouldn't work, daggers should be weak, but we need to do something more to make them useful.

other than that I think all Zodiac's ideas are good.


give all armor of the same type the same HP, but add different stuff to make them more useful.

all shields could have elemental attributes, like ice shield and fire shield, only more of them. we could do one for each element. they could either half or or absorb the element of the shield.

we could give heavy helmets add: blind, but give them large HP or stat boosts

Quote from: "philsov"Additionally this also means we'd be able to pick up people from the soldier office already prepped for action, zodiac/br/fa permitting.  No need for exp or JP grinding, imo.  Then we can unlock all the gear right at the start, do some attack.out and world map editing to go to the deep dungeon (anywhere, really, but this is most compatibile with zodiac's latest creation, I think), and just barrel through fights as desired.

Giving that my patch works solely on home made saves on a custom memory card, all this stuff is meaningless. I had to disable every location but the deep dungeon because my music hacks act funny (and tend to crash) when exiting bar/shop/soldier office.
Oh but don't worry, for what it gets and its purpose it is fully functional.

What about job levels? I thought that we could remove them all so people only have to spend JP in abilities they will use. Maybe a 250JP cost for job unlock? Just throwing in ideas.

@Samurai

But a tournament is not fun if there is a small pool to choose from. If there are large pools, the fun of it all will come from trying to find the next greatest combination of skills, items, and units. Also, many strategies also increases interest. You might want to go with a luck team, being able to slaughter anything in one hit or watching the team crash hard. You might go with an average team, where it isn't great, but no real weaknesses. I say make a large pool out of everything.

That sounds like a plan, using JP to unlock jobs. Thing is, we'd either need to place a higher JP cost than 250 for each job, or lower the amount of JP. With 250 JP unlock, if you use stuff from 5 different classes, you'd be down 1k JP, with 2400 for your abilities... maybe it's just me, but that seems like a bit too much to spend on whatever you want.

Actually, spending 250 of your 3400 jp to be able to get abilities from that job sounds good. Although, doing this we might have to lower the 3400 jp.

tbh the 3400 element is just another variation introduced.  There doesn't need to be a JP cap at all, in fact that's how we did most tourneys at Super Tact.  There's just simply banned abilities/classes and everything else is free game.  In terms of a real patch it's probably just simpler to unlock the classes and make most if not all the abilities cost >10 JP so you can just select what you want and ignore the rest, since there's no real way to juggle around a JP cap ingame.  And then the banned abilities will simply just be inaccessible.

This of course means things like sages with abandon and singing knights, so if you're really going for a "larger pool" it just kinda follows.

Actually, I think being able to choose your own action abilities adds to the fun. It allows to build more specialized unit members and teams.

We talked about this patch a bit in chat; here's the idea. Implement the fury hack to change physical damage to 25+fury%. If you get the idea with a fury range of 40 to 70 (65%-95%), 40 vs 40 fury would deal 42% physical damage while 70 vs 70 fury would deal 90% physical damage. Sure the difference is not HUGE, but for a mage reducing physical damage to 65% can mean a lot...
Yes weapons and other physical abilities will deal less damage but faith based magic really needs the boost compared to physical attacks. And anyway it gives a reason to have low fury(brave) on a unit.
If we were to make spell cast 100% on hit, we could see real different setups. A mage could use its rod to cast a strong spell on a target, but of course since most warriors have lower faith than mages, the overall damage will be much greater against other mages. Coincidentally, warriors could benefit from having higher faith or MA to cast stronger, or higher % hit to hit, spells with their weapon.

Why not just remake the job tree to include many more classes other then the ones we have on the original job tree.

This means to change each of the inaccessible classes into something different and completely original requiring base job unlocks to get to. This would create more variety and may actually feel more interesting.

Examples would be:
1.To add a Mage/Knight hybrid into the middle of the job tree to create a jack of all trades, yet not the better then both (I was thinking of a Swordskill class, yet the actions would be very weak compared to current 1.3 standards).
2. Create another class focused on bringing down monsters
3. A Unique class that gets it's own choice of action abilities, yet costs so much JP to unlock they get only three action abilities, including R/S/M.
4. Add classes (with permission of course) from other projects, yet balanced in a way to keep it from being overpowered or underpowered in tournament standards.

-Lancer's Vertical Jump should cost less JP, maybe 100-150 less then it's current cost.
-Thief's Hat should be re-balanced and returned to the pool of items.
-There needs to be Charm Immunity on something other than a accessory.
-Elemental Shields for elements, meaning one for each elements (Flame, Frost, Shock, etc.). This will fill up the "weaker" shield slots so we can use shields other then the top tier.
-Sword that adds speed, another that adds PA, and another that adds MA.
-Spears that cancel specific negative statuses and have their WP balanced with the negative ailment they block.
-Lower-Tier clothing (one of them maybe) gets initial protect with low HP/MP bonuses. The Lowest-Tier clothing gets always protect and no HP/MP bonus.
-Hats the same as clothing, except the status is Shell.
-Book procs stay.
-Mythril Gun should be reduced in range just a bit, eight is a bit much.

Those are my opinions on what should be changed. Some of them are weird, yes, but they are suggestions of course.

I think you misunderstand the point of this patch. No item should be superior to any other of the same type; just different. There won't be such a thing as "lowest tier". And all items will be available. Maybe we could add a series of rare items (like one-two rare items per team), but that's probably a bad idea.
This patch won't be based on 1.3 either.

What I meant by "tier" was that the dagger was considered a lower tier compared to a main guage or assassins dagger and etc. I was trying to give ideas so that balance will be there or just ideas for variety so that all items will be used and not just the most powerful ones.

Quote from: "philsov"Fast mages are horrible.  The worst possible opener would be for a mage to go before a melee goes, march into the middle of the field, charge some big ass spell, and then promptly die from the charging debuff.  

Not exactly. The 10 speed Haste caster with 9 speed team works quite well, removing the chance of the team splitting up. Also, if the mage has 3 move and the rest of the team has 4-5, the mage will still be behind.

Sounds promising. Try to keep all the weapons especially balanced, otherwise this might become either very strange or ridiculous. Zodiac's ideas are solid, stick with those for now. Here is a totally weird idea, why not give all abilities 0 JP cost and all jobs are unlocked, but the rules are no more than one type of unit (with abilities) each. I know what you all are probably thinking - don't take it wrong - but get rid of the 1 hit spells like Death and also Death-Sentence spells, and get rid of Summon/Draw Out all together. Then there may be somewhat of a tactical experience, otherwise we may get a bunch of 1 hit killers which to me seems lame. Just dumb ideas thrown in, don't take what I said too seriously...

It's to try NOT to ban stuff. Basically, every spell, skill, buff, debuff, item, weapon, armor, shield, accessory and job will be rebalanced for a new AI tourney patch. Pure awesome, in other words.

As for Squire, maybe just turn it into a Mystic Knight of some sort. Also, if we're not including monsters, there's a ton of room open for new abilities, though possibly not.. can't remember what abilities are hardcoded, if any. Hell, we could even make more classes. This doesn't even need a job wheel. The possibilities are endless.

Problem with that Zaen, it wouldn't be FFT anymore, there's a limit to what can be done and still call it "FFT:Arena"

Well, it is a tournament patch. There's most likely going to be no job levels, just spend a small amount of JP to unlock a job. Also, during testing of monsters in AI teams, I've heard of them being a hindrance(I'll follow this up later). Since this is a PvP balance patch, there shouldn't be a "weaker" class, but good at each job's thing. Squire doesn't have much use since it has lower stats in every way compared to Geomancer. It also has a near worthless skillset that's overpowered by everything else in most situations. That being said, it's possible to add in a job or two. Since this won't be using special units and most likely monsters(followed up), there's some room for those possible jobs.

The only way it'd get out of character, would be for it to include Tekken characters or something. If any jobs would be added at all, they'd be from the FF universe.

I think we'll be taking the job changes from 1.3, since that already did a pretty good job of balancing the classes

For squire, I propose that we give them the ability to equip armor, but not helmets, give them more hp, and give them Half: All elements or something like that. Turn them into tanks.

I did some changes and put them on the first post. Tell me what you think?

Honestly I don't think we should be playing with elemental resistance on non-mage jobs. Better equips and more abilities yes, but elemental resistance feels off.

Quite honestly, the only job I could think of having resistances would be Priest, halving Dark. Maybe Sage could have one as well, but eh.

Resistance should remain in the equipment, because it makes choices more important and allows for more strategy in choice.

I had an idea on what to do with Katanas. What if we gave them 25% to cast their respective drawouts (except Muramasa, Masamune and Kiyomori obviously)?

That could work, and those other 3 would just be compensated by an extra 10% evade on the 30% we'll most likely give them. They might also do slightly more damage on contact.

Quote from: "Zodiac"Actually, I think being able to choose your own action abilities adds to the fun. It allows to build more specialized unit members and teams.

We talked about this patch a bit in chat; here's the idea. Implement the fury hack to change physical damage to 25+fury%. If you get the idea with a fury range of 40 to 70 (65%-95%), 40 vs 40 fury would deal 42% physical damage while 70 vs 70 fury would deal 90% physical damage. Sure the difference is not HUGE, but for a mage reducing physical damage to 65% can mean a lot...
Yes weapons and other physical abilities will deal less damage but faith based magic really needs the boost compared to physical attacks. And anyway it gives a reason to have low fury(brave) on a unit.
If we were to make spell cast 100% on hit, we could see real different setups. A mage could use its rod to cast a strong spell on a target, but of course since most warriors have lower faith than mages, the overall damage will be much greater against other mages. Coincidentally, warriors could benefit from having higher faith or MA to cast stronger, or higher % hit to hit, spells with their weapon.

That is a fascinating prospect.

But Draw Out would become suddenly WAAAAY more powerful. It'd have to become faith based.

EDIT: General ideas:

Global C-EV (100/75/50 or 100/50/25), Innate weapon guard, reduce evasion of shields and mantles slightly, have each of the various shields either:

Guard against a status(es)
Give a positive status.

Change power sleeves and thief hats, we'll be fine with just flash hats and judo outfits. Make various armors defend against elements and/or even add support abilities to you (Armor of defense up?) If possible make these come with side effects like "attack down" or "always slow" or something.

Make some male only equips and allow ribbons and perfumes in, maybe like a "jockstrap of power" or something that gives men powers when worn on their leg slot.

Ideas for specific items:

Defense armlet becoems Heretic's symbol: An accesory that grants always: Innocent. That means no enemy magic but also no haste, raise, or any healing, even from draw out.
Feather hat becomes red, grants innate fly and 2 points of movement. ~ + 40 HP
Clothes become fire overalls, grant 4 points of jump, strengthen/absorb fire, and give +1 MA. + 65 HP
Cotton Robe becomes emperor's new clothes, grants always: Transparent and always: defending. +0 HP.
Cachusha becomes beer hat, adds always: protect, shell, berserk, poison, haste, male only. +40 HP
Barette becomes monocle, adds innate concentrate, immune blind, confusion, silence, berserk, +2 MA, male only, + 20HP
Leather vest becomes jockstrap of power, adds initial: haste, innocent, +2 PA, +60 HP, male only.

Okay some of those are jokes, but they might work as items. I especially like Fire overalls.

No "buts". We can just nerf them, that's far from being a problem.

Well I edited in some suggestions, some are jokes but they could work as real items.

Well this has fallen off the board. Change log of what I've done so far is in the first post, but there needs to be more suggestions on what to change!!!!

You want more suggestions? You got 'em: (Referencing 1.3)

1. How about Romanda Gun and Mythril Gun be brought up to 8 and 10 WP respectively, with Romanda Gun giving some kind of status, maybe poison?

2. In addition to my katana idea, Muramasa should heal on hit, Masamune give +1 speed and Kiyomori...initial: Protect and Shell sound too painful? Perhaps initial: regen instead? Status immunity to something? I don't know.

3. Some Sword suggestions:
Rune Blade, 12 WP, +2 MA
Ice Brand, No Changes, 12 WP?
Platinum Sword, Various Status Immunities,
Ancient Sword, 12 WP
Sleep Sword, 12 WP
Blood Sword, No Changes
Coral Sword, 12 WP
Diamond Sword, Wind Element, 12 WP
Nagarock, no changes
Materia Blade, no changes
Mythril Sword, Doublestrike? +1 PA? Maybe other status immunities?
Long Sword, 14 WP
Broad Sword, More W-Ev

4. Take the Flail/Axe formula from ASM'D.

5. I think Defender should have more W-Ev, because I don't think those 10 extra points do enough to compare with  the other K swords.

6. Axes should be simple enough, leave the WP alone and just increase the W-Ev for the weaker Axes, 60/40/20 sound okay?

7. Assuming you are implementing the Flail/Axe hack, for Flails, Don't Act for Flail, Don't Move for Morning Star, and extra WP for Scorpion Tail?

8. Crossbows:

Bow Gun: 11 WP, Extra W-Ev
Night Killer: 11 WP, Add: Slow
Cross Bow: 11 WP, ??????
Arbalest: 11 WP, +1 PA
Hunting Bow: 11 WP, Range of 6
Gastrafitis: 12 WP

9. Bow suggestions:

Long Bow, 14 WP, More W-Ev
Silver Bow, 14 WP Element Holy?
Ice Bow, 14 WP
Windslash Bow, 14 WP
Mythril Bow, 14 WP, WP*WP formula
Ultimus Bow, 14 WP, Add: Dead
Yoichi Bow, 14 WP, Range of 6
Perseus Bow, 16 WP

10. Harps: ??????

11. Cloths: lol good luck

12. Books: Just standardize the WP and it should be okay.

13. Sticks:

Cypress Rod, 12 WP, More W-Ev
Battle Bamboo, 12 WP, Double Strike?
Musk Rod, 12 WP, Water Elemental
Iron Fan, 12 WP, Earth Elemental
Gokuu Rod, 10 WP, Always: Innocent?
Octagon Rod, no changes
Ivory Rod, Add: Undead
Whale Whisker: 14 WP

14. Spears:

Javelin, 14 WP, More W-Ev
Spear, 14 WP, Add: Jump?
Mythril Spear, 14 WP, Status Immunities
Partisan, 14 WP, Double Strike
Oberisk, 14 WP, Add: Confuse
Holy Lance, No changes
Dragon Whisker, 16 WP
Javelin 2, 18 WP, only one.

15. Knives, just give them all various statuses to add, maybe make one WP*WP, and that should do it.

16. Ninja Swords:

Hidden Knife, 12 WP, More W-Ev
Ninja Knife, 10 WP, Double Strike?
Short Edge, 12 WP, Add; Berserk
Ninja Edge, 12 WP, Add: Confuse
Spell Edge, 12 WP, No changes
Sasuke Knives, 14 WP,
Iga and Koga Knives,  12 WP, No other changes.

That's it for weapons for now.

You could make a cool alternative for gun users. A weaker gun with 5 WP, but that can have Two Swords. It could also grant +1 Speed per gun, to balance out for weaker damage output.

I like the double strike being added to more weapons, it makes them a viable alternative. Thing is, the WP seem to be very close to each other.
Partisan should have less WP, like 11.
Ninja Knife should have 9 WP.
Bamboo Rod should have 10.
Mythril Bow should have quite a bit less if it's WP*WP. Maybe... 10, 11, or 12.
Arbalest should get 10 WP if it adds PA.
Crossbow could have 12 WP and 5 Range. They usually have 4, so Hunting Bow would still have a purpose, giving 6.
Axes should not have scaled evasion. Maybe 45 Ev with 11 WP, then 30 with 14, then 17 with 15.
Maybe instead of Confuse, the Oberisk or the Ninja Edge could add poison.
Harps could be like buff appliers.
Cloths could be dual status inflicters.

These below are casual suggestions, and obviously haven't had a large amount of thought put into them.
Defender: 50 W-EV, rest 30 W-EV.
Make Knight Swords have less OP effects. Defender gets 14 WP. Maybe make Excalibur be 2nd strongest, with 18 WP and +2 PA while Chaos Blade has 19 with +1 SP. Save the Queen could retain initial Protect at 16 WP, while Ragnarok could be 17 with +2 SP, initial Slow and Regen.

That ragnarok you propose is clearly more powerful than any of the others. Also, similar WPs is boring, bring on the fun effects!

I don't think that knight swords (except excalibur) are particularly unbalanced. I say that the lack of the shield or the lack of 2 hands makes up for it. Samurai are, after all, still pretty much the be-all end-all physical unit. them and monks. Although, if universal C-Ev and weapon guard is implemented (hint hint, we've already been shown it works in the AI tournament), reduced W-EV is probably the best thing. Furthermore, increasing WP grants diminishing returns. Sure, 169 damage is better than 153 damage, but how much better is 500 damage than 487 damage? How much is one more measure of PA worth? How much will you care that your oracle hit for 30 more damage when it still takes 3 actions from your team to kill the knight? Interesting effects are key! going lower is a greater bane than going higher is of a boon.

more suggestions:

Guns:

romanda gun becomes machine gun, Range 5 8 WP, 1-4 hits
Mythril gun becomes shotgun, Range 3, WP 10, AoE 2, up to 6 hits
Stone Gun: Becomes mortar, Range 10, WP 10, AoE 3 cast Asura (Rafa's asura, using WP as MA, up to 10 hits) (adjust WP to make it just slightly weaker than a shotgun bullet hit).
Blaze Gun: Becomes B.B. gun, casts 60% Blind/30% berserk/10% sleep (as beowulf's magic sword or Oracle's spells)
Blast Gun: Becomes Tazer, casts 60% Don't Move, 30% Don't Act, 10% Galaxy Stop
Glacier Gun becomes sniper rifle, Range 9, cast death, or maybe make it Demi2/Gravi2/Death (it still would have to hit from the faith percentage).

Knives:
Bring back Main Gauche's high w-ev, and mage masher's silence.

Sticks:
Stick 1: 10 WP, deals MP damage, silence proc
Gokuu Rod: Always innocent, add innocent (niche uses)
Battle Bamboo: 12 WP, 25% power break proc
Musk Rod: 12 WP, 25% confuse
Octagon Rod: WP 4, PA x WP formula, same effect.
Whale Whisker: Same as-is

Crossbows: EDITED

Bow Gun becomes paper crossbow, ignores evasion (nobody would suspect you to kill them with a crossbow made of paper), WP 10
Night Killer becomes darkness elemental, absorbs dark, strengthens dark, WP 11, kotetsu proc instead of doubleshot
Cross Bow WP 12, best weapon evasion
Arbalest: range 7, no doublestrike. WP ~ 10
Hunting Bow becomes hand crossbow, 8 WP, 2 swords, allow ninjas to equip crossbow (whether or not the keep their innate 2 swords).
Gastrafitis: Range 5 WP 16, decent weapon evasion, 2 hands (the most powerful crossbow, unusually big gives a huge reaction)

Armor:
Maximilain becomes heavy plate, -1(maybe 2) speed, all other stats the same as in 1.3
Carabini, crystal, reflect mails all unchanged
Leather armor becomes recon armor, +2 move, +1 speed, HP + 50
Linen Curiass becomes Spiked Armor, all attacks against wearer cause damage as per the amount of damage a steel giant takes when using Dispose, HP + 110. If that's impossible (it doesn't sound too impossible), have it give the wearer innate damage split.
Bronze Armor becomes Mage Armor, MA + 2, HP + 100, MP + 80
Chain Mail becomes berserker armor, gives +2 PA, Initial haste and berserk, +160 HP
Plate Mail becomes Dragoon mail, gives +3 Jump and innate any ground/move on lava, HP + 130
Platina Armor: Immune don't move, don't act, slow, poison, stop HP + 110
Gold Armor: absorb and strengthen holy, immune dead, initial reraise
Genji Armor: Reduce HP to + 100

Helmets:
Platina Helmet: Immune Blind, Berserk, Silence, Sleep, Charm, blood suck, same HP

Shields:
Platina Shield: Immune invite, undead, petrify, dead, same stats

Swords:
Platina Sword: Immune chicken, Confusion, Frog, Anything else platina shield, helmet, and armor missed

Spears:

Javelin becomes lance, 2 hands range 3, effect line (range 3 line like earth slash), vert 4, WP 12
Javelin 2: -1 speed, 18 WP, 2 hands
Spear Becomes battle standard, EDIT: MA x WP formula 10 WP, heals on hit, add random positive status (but note that it still works with jump)
Mythril spear 10 WP +1 speed
Partisan 12 WP 100% knockback (if possible)
Oberisk: 14 WP
Dragon Whisker: WP 12, Absorb: fire, ice, lightning, holy

thats all i got

Yeah... Save the Queen could use +1-2 MA, and I figured Ragnarok was a little too strong. It's just hard to balance out stuff. Maybe +1 PA and +1 SP?

The guns seem nearly impossible with ranked % chance, unless you mean that those status effects take the spot of Fire/Ice/Bolt in the spells list. that's how Blaze/Glacier/Blast guns work. Also, we have to remember that this is a Medieval time period, so the gun changes seem rather out of place, with swords and such around.

As for crossbow ideas, Ninja doesn't need that. It has Throw. Paper Crossbow is far to powerful for being paper. I guess Night killer could do that, even though the correct translation was Knight Killer.. like that matters.

Some small things I've noticed are armor and weapon ideas that are impossible, like the Spike armor idea, even with Damage Split. Armor and weapons can't give reactions. Also, it's impossible to make equipment lower stats. If you do that, you'd need to make everything GIVE speed from that slot. I tested it out personally, and it severely cripples those classes using heavier armor, no matter the HP. Knockback also can't be changed with weapons, and heal on hit is 100% chance.

The thing is, there's such a thing as too little special effects and too many. Somewhere between similar WP with a few status effects and extremely varying WP and status effects is the best bet, and probably more towards the first. Too much variation is just gonna cause problems for actually balancing the classes.

Good points, it's easy to get carried away with this. I did mean for the gun abilities to take the place of fire/ice/lightning from the spell guns. the problem is there's only so much you can do with the existing status effects. It's either a variety of options that matter, or a variety of options that don't.

My ideas for Knightswords (all are forced 2-hands)-

Excalibur - 10 WP, Strengthen: Holy, Initial: Regen, Reraise (Used on Support Knights, the Reraise might be a bit too strong though)
Save The Queen - 14 WP, Always: Protect, Speed - 2
Ragnarok - 14 WP, Always: Shell, Speed - 2
Chaos Blade - 20 WP, Always: Zombie, Poison, Initial: Confuse

Aren't undead immune to poison?

Is that supposed to be minus speed?  That can't be done.  Equipment can only add stats.
The Chaos Blade seems a bit too counterproductive.  The person using it would have to be relying on a great deal of lucky revivals, and those take so long anyways that the fight could very well be over before it gets the chance to revive.  Realistically, it would only get ten turns at most, and a number of its early turns would be wasted.

Chaos Blade - 20 WP, Always: Zombie

So is anyone working on this? Or is this simply a brainstorming thread?

Somebody will make it eventually, when we have some solid agreements on what to do about it, but I don't think anyone has stepped up to the plate yet.  It is clearly something a majority of the community wants to see done.

PX is editing it.

My mistake.  I looked back at the first few posts to check and didn't see any indication that someone planned to be the one to do so.

You guys don't have to include every single item. This patch would be far better with less of everything. Also, don't just tack on random shit. Always Zombie might be an interesting idea for an item, but put in a simple balancing feature and move along. You don't need mountains of effects. That will only piss in the balance pool. Keep it simple.

Btw, if the minus speed on an item is impossible, it could have Always: Slow
Knight swords are heavy, it's not so strange after all

Quote from: "Dome"Btw, if the minus speed on an item is impossible, it could have Always: Slow
Knight swords are heavy, it's not so strange after all

I like this idea. I think that if you add in the knight swords without any negative buffs it would be way to overpowered. Maybe reduce the overall WP as well so that equipping them doesnt always make it worth it. I would also keep them forced 2-hand like in 1.3 but thats just me.

Well, I'm really looking forward to this patch then!

I like some of these suggestions. I'll try to get up a test fftpatcher file by February 7th. Updates will be on the first post.

Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"I like some of these suggestions. I'll try to get up a test fftpatcher file by February 7th. Updates will be on the first post.

Cool, I can't wait!

Would we have to use FFTastic to create teams or will you be doing some ASM editing so that soldier office randoms start at Level 35? I'm really looking forward to this patch!

FFTPacther file up there now with current change log. Name changes haven't occurred yet, so refer back here.

QuoteHunting Bow becomes hand crossbow, 8 WP, 2 swords, allow ninjas to equip crossbow (whether or not the keep their innate 2 swords).
Gastrafitis: Range 5 WP 16, decent weapon evasion, 2 hands (the most powerful crossbow, unusually big gives a huge reaction)

Ranged weapons aren't given Two Swords because it gets glitchy, however, I really like the idea of making Gastrafitis Two-Hand-able (no forced Two Hands + High WP, that just too cheap). 7 WP, maybe 8 WP. However, I'm not sure if Two Hands is still banned or not.

Shields

I'll leave what the evasion baseline should be alone for now and just get to the suggestions/inconplete concepts.

Safety Shield, Always: Defend
Timeless Shield, Cancel: Slow, Stop, Haste, Don't Move, Float
Reverse Shield, Absorb: All Elements, Always: Zombie
Rubber Shield, Cancel: Lightning, Half: ????, Weak: ????
Soul Buckler, Cancel: Dead, Petrify, Dark
Shield of Apathy, Cancel:Charm, Berserk, Always: Silence
Cursed Shield, Always: Poison, Cancel: Sleep
Crystal Shield, Cancel: Confuse
Genji Shield, +1 PA, +1 MA, Initial: Dead

...Wouldn't Absorb + Undead = Taking damage? If not, then I'm stupid and it's only healing items and cures, etc.

Initial dead sounds like too much of a negative. Other than that, it sounds awesome.

Also, if there's no innate Two Swords, and classes that can use melee weapons can't use ranged weapons, you could do two swords on a weapon type. Like crossbows. If only archer can use bows, then they can have a crossbow with 2 Hands that's weaker than the rest with no positive effects, nor negative so it balances out. Gastrafitis could be that said crossbow. I don't think anything other than Squire and Archer use crossbows, and Squire can just be reworked so that's not the case.

Equipping a ranged weapon in the first hand and then a non-ranged weapon in the second hand makes both weapons attack at the first one's range.  Allowing a unit to have a combination of Two Hands, ranged weapons, and melee weapons all at the same time is a very bad idea.

Unless I'm mistaken about the effects it has, but I really doubt I am.

Quote from: "Zaen"...Wouldn't Absorb + Undead = Taking damage? If not, then I'm stupid and it's only healing items and cures, etc.

Nope, undead only effects straight up healing. Otherwise Undead monsters wouldn't be healed by Dark element.

QuoteInitial dead sounds like too much of a negative. Other than that, it sounds awesome.

This are just starting points. They should to be expanded upon. You are right, though, but, what would make initial: Dead worth it?

QuoteAlso, if there's no innate Two Swords, and classes that can use melee weapons can't use ranged weapons, you could do two swords on a weapon type. Like crossbows. If only archer can use bows, then they can have a crossbow with 2 Hands that's weaker than the rest with no positive effects, nor negative so it balances out. Gastrafitis could be that said crossbow. I don't think anything other than Squire and Archer use crossbows, and Squire can just be reworked so that's not the case.

True, but simply make Gastrafitis Two Hands instead of Two Swords is a lot less intrusive then having to modify the Squire.

QuoteEquipping a ranged weapon in the first hand and then a non-ranged weapon in the second hand makes both weapons attack at the first one's range. Allowing a unit to have a combination of Two Hands, ranged weapons, and melee weapons all at the same time is a very bad idea.

Unless I'm mistaken about the effects it has, but I really doubt I am.

Yep, you got it.

Looking over the patch, I see:

1. Was Pray/Doubt Faith supposed to be INSTANT, as in 0 CT or just 1 CT?

2. Cure 4 still has AoE of 3.

3. What does removing random flags do to Nameless Song?

4. I did some tests with Diamond Sword and Diamond Swords 1-3 hits just aren't happening.

Well, the Squire is going to be modified anyways. It's just too weak for use in AI battles, so it either needs a heavy revamp in skillset or stats, or it needs to be a new class altogether. Therefore, it's not intrusive by any means. But I do agree that 2 Hands would be a lot easier. But wouldn't that mean only half the chance of the Doublestrike?

Updated Patcher File. If you patch it on a clean ISO, use the AI sees invis ASM hack on it please.

Okay guys, I'm gonna update it by Sunday, Februrary 7th. After that, I'm throwing a mini tourney with 8 people. Sign up now and wait for patch notes to come out to create your teams.

I'll sign up.

I'll sign up!

I'm in, definitely.

Signing up

In. If you want me.

I'm in, if possible

I will dance my way to victory .

Okay, we got our 8. And the weapons are finally done, and on schedule.

Sign me up.

You miss two weapons: Romanda Gun and Mythril Gun

Here are the brackets for the tourney. I'll update the rest of the things today, and we'll be set.
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/PX_Timefordeath/_ArenaBetaTournament.png)

Quick question: will this patch be available as a ppf before the tourney, or will it only be available as a fftpatch file?

Another question... how is Hunting Bow going to work as Two Swords? Couldn't it easily be abused to make other weapons ranged? Or is Equip Crossbow no more?

QuoteNinjas lose innate 2-Swords

How do you have two supports?

FFT: ARENA BETA TOURNAMENT RULES

VERY IMPORTANT: Based on map placement:
• Unit #1 will be on highest panel and Unit #4 will stand on lowest panel
IF the panels heights are about the same:
• Unit #1 will be the nearest unit to access a high leveled area.
IF there is no high leveled area:
• Unit #1 will be in front of the others.
Note that I used constantly "Unit #1". But in fact if we'd have 4 units on different heights, for example #1 would be placed on height 7, #2 on height 5, #3 on height 4, and #4 on height 2.

Post Teams here. Or PM to me.

Rules

1) Teams. Team will consist of 4 generic humans level 35, leveled in their assigned class. UNITS WILL BE CONTROLLED BY THE GAME'S FULL AI. There is no longer distinction between ally and enemy sides, and you cannot specify a specific AI routine for your units.
1a) All Zodiac signs are allowed for units. That includes Serpentarius

2) Fury and Faith ranging from 40 to 70. NO MAXIMUM OR MINIMUM FURY AND FAITH. Fury factors in at the end of all physical damage formulas as (User_Fury+35)*(Target_Fury+35)/10000. Otherwise, Fury functions EXACTLY like brave.

3) JP. Each generic human unit has 3400 JP to spend in various abilities. We're using a new system for Arena. With the exception of Squire, any class can be unlocked with the cost of 250 JP. So you can spend 250 JP to unlock samurai, leaving you with 3150 JP to use on buying abilities from Squire job and Samurai
3a) Elemental can be wholly purchased for 600 JP.

4) Skills. Only two units on a team can buy any individual ability. So four units could have the Punch Art ability set but only two could have purchased Earth Slash. Innates do not count for that, so you can have two chemists and a Knight with Throw Item.

5) Equipment. All items that are not "dead". Complete list is here: http://project-yvalice.wikispaces.com/Tact_Equip_Check (http://project-yvalice.wikispaces.com/Tact_Equip_Check) Just like abilities, there is a cap of 2 per any piece of equipment. Full list of item changes is on first post changelog. Anything not mentioned is same as 1.3 here (http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1671)

5a) Usable Item/Throw/Draw Out goodies will be 99 in quantity.

6) Elimination. One battle between players. Whoever wins that round moves on. 1 Map for all battles.

CLASS STATS
Male              HP  MP  SP  PA  MA  M  J  Ev
Squire           126  33   8   8   5  4  3  10
Chemist          106  59   8   6   7  3  3  15
Knight           207  45   8  13   5  3  3  10
Archer           126  28   9  10   4  3  4  10
Monk             199  39   8  12   5  3  4  20
Priest           107  76   9   8   9  3  3   5
Wizard            89  83   8   5  10  3  3   5
Time Mage         84  83   9   3   9  3  3   5
Summoner         106 102   8   3  10  3  3   5
Thief            114  21  10   9   3  4  4  25
Mediator         101  59   8   8   6  3  3   5
Oracle           123  70   8   7   9  3  3   5
Geomancer        139  52   8   9   7  4  3  10
Lancer           163  22   9  10   3  3  5  15
Samurai          101  47   8  11   9  3  3  20
Ninja            101  24  10  10   4  4  4  30
Sage              86  71   8   9  10  3  3   5
Bard             101  22   9   8  10  4  3  30

Female            HP  MP  SP  PA  MA  M  J  Ev
Squire           118  36   8   7   6  4  3  10
Chemist          100  63   8   5   8  3  3  15
Knight           193  48   8  10   6  3  3  10
Archer           118  30   9   8   6  3  4  10
Monk             187  42   8   9   6  3  4  20
Priest           100  81   9   6  11  3  3   5
Wizard            83  88   8   4  13  3  3   5
Time Mage         78  88   9   3  12  3  3   5
Summoner         100 109   8   2  12  3  3   5
Thief            106  23  10   7   4  4  4  25
Mediator          94  63   8   6   8  3  3   5
Oracle           115  75   8   6  11  3  3   5
Geomancer        130  56   8   7   9  4  3  10
Lancer           153  24   9   8   4  3  5  15
Samurai           94  50   8   9  11  3  3  20
Ninja             94  26  10   8   6  4  4  30
Sage              80  76   8   7  13  3  3   5
Dancer            94  24   9  10   8  4  3  30
ABILITY COSTS
250 JP to unlock a job except Squire.

Squire
Dash              50
Throw Stone       50
Heal             150
Wish             200
Cheer Up         100
Counter Tackle   180
Move+1           180

Chemist
Potion             0
Hi-Potion        100
X-Potion         200
Ether            100
Hi-Ether         200
Antidote          70
Eye Drop          80
Echo Grass       120
Maiden's Kiss    180
Soft             220
Holy Water       300
Remedy           900
Phoenix Down       0
Auto Potion      500
Throw Item       250
Maintenance      200
Equip Change       0
Move-Find Item   100

Knight
Power Ruin       200
Mind Ruin        200
Speed Ruin       200
Magic Ruin       200
Weapon Break     350
Head Break       250
Armor Break      300
Shield Break     250
Counter          300
Defend            50
Equip Armor      400
Equip Shield     200
Equip Sword      350

Archer
Charge+1          80
Charge+2         120
Charge+3         150
Charge+4         200
Charge+5         250
Charge+7         350
Charge+10        500
Charge+20        600
Speed Save       600
Arrow Guard      400
Equip Crossbow   250
Concentrate      350
Jump+1           100

Monk
Spin Fist        150
Repeating Fist   250
Wave Fist        250
Earth Slash      500
Secret Fist      300
Stigma Magic     100
Chakra           300
Revive           420
HP Restore       400
Meatbone Slash   200
Martial Arts     150
Move-HP Up       270

Priest
Cure              50
Cure 2           150
Cure 3           300
Cure 4           750
Raise            150
Raise 2          400
Reraise          600
Regen            250
Protect           70
Protect 2        500
Shell             70
Shell 2          500
Wall             300
Esuna            280
Holy             600
Regenerator      350
Magic Defend Up  350

Wizard
Fire              50
Fire 2           180
Fire 3           350
Fire 4           750
Bolt              50
Bolt 2           180
Bolt 3           350
Bolt 4           750
Ice               50
Ice 2            180
Ice 3            350
Ice 4            750
Poison           150
Frog             300
Death            500
Flare            650
Counter Magic    700
Magic Attack Up  350

Time Mage
Haste             80
Haste 2          500
Slow              80
Slow 2           500
Stop             300
Don't Move        80
Float            150
Reflect          250
Quick            800
Demi             200
Demi 2           450
Meteor          2400
Critical Quick   700
Short Charge     800
Teleport         800
Float            150

Summoner
Moogle            80
Shiva            180
Ramuh            180
Ifrit            180
Fairy            200
Silf             200
Golem            300
Carbunkle        350
Titan            200
Odin             200
Salamander       200
Lich             400
Leviathan        600
Bahamut          600
Cyclops          700
Zodiac          2150
MP Restore       400
Half of MP       750

Thief
Gil Taking        10
Steal Heart      120
Steal Helmet     300
Steal Armor      400
Steal Shield     300
Steal Weapon     500
Steal Accessry   450
Steal Exp        200
Caution          150
Gilgame Heart    200
Catch            200
Move+2           420
Jump+2           200

Mediator
Invitation       100
Persuade         100
Warn             100
Threaten         100
Preach           200
Refute           200
Death Sentence   400
Negotiate        100
Insult           300
Mimic Daravon    300
Finger Guard     250
Equip Gun        700
Monster Talk     100

Oracle
Blind             80
Spell Absorb     100
Life Drain       200
Pray Faith       200
Doubt Faith      200
Zombie           200
Silence Song     170
Blind Rage       400
Petrify          500
Confusion Song   300
Dispel Magic     400
Paralyze         100
Sleep            300
Absorb Used MP   200
Defense Up       350
Any Weather      200

Geomancer
Pitfall          150
Water Ball       150
Hell Ivy         150
Carve Model      150
Local Quake      150
Kamaitachi       150
Demon Fire       150
Quicksand        150
Sand Storm       150
Blizzard         150
Gusty Wind       150
Lava Ball        150
Counter Flood    250
Attack Up        400
Any Ground       220
Move on Lava     150
ALL ELEMENTALS   600

Lancer
Level Jump2      100
Level Jump3      250
Level Jump4      350
Level Jump5      500
Vertical Jump2    50
Vertical Jump3   150
Vertical Jump4   250
Vertical Jump5   350
Vertical Jump6   450
Vertical Jump7   600
Vertical Jump8   900
Dragon Spirit    500
Equip Spear      350
Ignore Height    500

Samurai
Asura             80
Koutetsu         150
Bizen Boat       200
Murasame         300
Kiyomori         450
Muramasa         500
Kikuichimoji     550
Masamune         600
Chirijiraden    2600
Equip Katana     350
Two Hands        900
Move in Water    300

Ninja
Shuriken         100
Ball             100
Axe              100
Knife            100
Sword            100
Hammer           100
Ninja Sword      100
Spear            100
Stick            100
Dictionary       100
Sunken State     400
Abandon         2000
Two Swords       900
Walk on Water    420

Sage
Zombie 2         400
Sleep 2          400
Confuse 2        400
Toad 2           500
Gravi 2          500
Flare 2          600
Despair 2        200
Return 2         300
Distribute       150
Damage Split    1500
Gained Exp Up    300
Move-Get Exp     370
Move-Get Jp      350

Bard
Angel Song       300
Life Song        300
Cheer Song       300
Battle Song      300
Magic Song       300
Nameless Song    300
Move-MP Up       1500
MA Save          550
Fly              600
Move+3           1500
Jump+3           300

Dancer
Witch Hunt       300
Wiznaibus        300
Slow Dance       300
Polka Polka      300
Disillusion      300
Nameless Dance   300
Last Dance       300
A Save           550
MP Switch       1500
Fly              600
Move+3          1500
Jump+3           300

Mime
Hamedo          2000

Aero we could potentially face in two different tournaments  .

Aw, I'm sad I missed it. If you need another player (someone drops out or something) PM me. xD

I'm still very interested in this patch. I may be interested in hosting some sort of tournament on it once it is completed. It looks VERY good so far.

Well, my team is practically ready. I'm just waiting on the finished JP costs so I can slap on abilities and various RSM that seems questionable at the moment.

Yeah, i got a decent idea, I think. Expect more random stuff from me. When is the deadline to submit teams?

Deadline? Hm...

All JP and Items are now done. For now.

(http://www.countdown2zero.com/mscd.php?code=4fa89)

This is just my opinion about the 1.3 AI Tourneys... overall I think they are really not exciting enough to watch. It's like back in the days when WoW PvP with everyone having huge crits and one-two hit kills. I think there needs to be a MAJOR change in the game's pace, making battles last much longer, giving them chances for come backs, etc. By increasing HP and lower damage from all skills will be a good start. Give the healers more chances to heal. Just my opinion.

Blizzard gave every class major survival boosts (people lasting 5x longer) with new equips and skill/talent tweaks as WoW became more competitively balanced in PvP. I think FFT can get the same treatment.

lol half the reason I watch the AI Tourny vids is cause the commentary is imba ^^
All the guys who have done them (philsov piercewise arch) GJGJ

Quote from: "R999"This is just my opinion about the 1.3 AI Tourneys... overall I think they are really not exciting enough to watch. It's like back in the days when WoW PvP with everyone having huge crits and one-two hit kills. I think there needs to be a MAJOR change in the game's pace, making battles last much longer, giving them chances for come backs, etc. By increasing HP and lower damage from all skills will be a good start. Give the healers more chances to heal. Just my opinion.

Blizzard gave every class major survival boosts (people lasting 5x longer) with new equips and skill/talent tweaks as WoW became more competitively balanced in PvP. I think FFT can get the same treatment.

It is and always has been balanced. and some of the 1.3 tourneys have very long matches, that's why arch has all matches play like x2 speed. I mean mine fight would be over 16 minutes. Just one fight. and I think many people in WOW would not be figthing one guy that long.

Quote from: "Shade"

Quote from: "R999"This is just my opinion about the 1.3 AI Tourneys... overall I think they are really not exciting enough to watch. It's like back in the days when WoW PvP with everyone having huge crits and one-two hit kills. I think there needs to be a MAJOR change in the game's pace, making battles last much longer, giving them chances for come backs, etc. By increasing HP and lower damage from all skills will be a good start. Give the healers more chances to heal. Just my opinion.

Blizzard gave every class major survival boosts (people lasting 5x longer) with new equips and skill/talent tweaks as WoW became more competitively balanced in PvP. I think FFT can get the same treatment.

It is and always has been balanced. and some of the 1.3 tourneys have very long matches, that's why arch has all matches play like x2 speed. I mean mine fight would be over 16 minutes. Just one fight. and I think many people in WOW would not be figthing one guy that long.

Actually, Arch uses x4 if I'm not mistaken. Some of the "fast matches" take quite a long time real-time.

Oh I didn't know they would last that long in normal speed. But to be fair this is turn based the other is real time. In a real time match up a lot more things are happening. In WoW arena PvPs (5v5), if both teams are good at survival it will last quite sometime. The point being is that there's basically no chance for comebacks and healing/survival strategies. I am not saying it isn't balanced, just saying it could be more interesting.

And they were much longer last season before people had figured out the best damage setups.  It wasn't played as fast, but one of my matches was 11 videos I think, so nearly two hours, and another was about 10 videos.  We've had enough of the really long ones.

I've noticed that on other games I've played.  Changing the game to favor offense over excessive defense doesn't usually change the victors (who tend to be the best at adopting new strategies), but tends to lower the amount of time needed.  2 hours is too long to determine a championship match for a video game.  (A chess match, maybe, but 4v4 FFT?)

Forgive me if I made it sound like the matches are going to last 4 hours, but it's not I wanted to say. What I am saying is that from what I am seeing, the matches end too abruptly, without giving the healers a much chances. Overall I think there will always be a balance of defense and offense and Crowd Controllers (or status units in FFT). Making units last longer does not necessarily mean the game will automatically favor the defensive players. What it means is that your rush / aggressive teams will be less effective than before. What it also means, is that if both teams are being too defensive, the team with better Crowd Control/Status or better overall offense will likely win. You will get to see more powerful spells being fired off. You will need more than 1-2 hits to rush kill a unit. You will see more heals going in. Point being longer games will open up more interesting strategies.

The point you bought up about Chess though is interesting. I never really compared FFT with chess, but then they are both turn based strategy games. If you look at the most competitive PC games in the past decade (Starcraft and Counterstrike comes to mind), the most epic matches all last 35 minutes to an hour.

Anyway since most of you disagree with the idea so I'll just forget about it.

Can you really compare match lengths between game genres? Let me give some examples.

Fighting games are normally decided from about 2 minutes to maybe 5 minutes. Some games (IaMP) might go for maybe 10, but its pretty rare. RTS games can go for pretty long as well, but can also be short (rushing, Starcraft, etc). It really depends on your type of game, and the game style itself.

Game length honestly doesn't affect how competitive a game is. The only criteria really is balance.



Also, I can't see how this makes any sense at all.

QuoteMaking units last longer does not necessarily mean the game will automatically favor the defensive players. What it means is that your rush / aggressive teams will be less effective than before.

How does it not favor defensive players? Off the top of my head:
-Gives more max HP so its more unlikely to spill over for healing with spells like Cure 3 and Cure 4.
-Allows more hits to be made, giving more chances for things like Speed Save to activate, which stall teams would normally have.
-MP healing would be needed more for teams with a Flare mage (or similar builds), since they run out of steam far too quickly, and rely on the battle being finished before they run out.
-And well, if rush teams are weaker, isn't that an advantage stall teams already?

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind more HP on units. Right now, too much shit is getting 1-shotted.

Quote from: "FFMaster"Can you really compare match lengths between game genres? Let me give some examples.

Fighting games are normally decided from about 2 minutes to maybe 5 minutes. Some games (IaMP) might go for maybe 10, but its pretty rare. RTS games can go for pretty long as well, but can also be short (rushing, Starcraft, etc). It really depends on your type of game, and the game style itself.

Game length honestly doesn't affect how competitive a game is. The only criteria really is balance.



Also, I can't see how this makes any sense at all.

QuoteMaking units last longer does not necessarily mean the game will automatically favor the defensive players. What it means is that your rush / aggressive teams will be less effective than before.

How does it not favor defensive players? Off the top of my head:
-Gives more max HP so its more unlikely to spill over for healing with spells like Cure 3 and Cure 4.
-Allows more hits to be made, giving more chances for things like Speed Save to activate, which stall teams would normally have.
-MP healing would be needed more for teams with a Flare mage (or similar builds), since they run out of steam far too quickly, and rely on the battle being finished before they run out.
-And well, if rush teams are weaker, isn't that an advantage stall teams already?

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind more HP on units. Right now, too much shit is getting 1-shotted.

FFMaster, I agree with all of your points, actually. It's going to take more than just changing the HP to make proper balance. Yes indeed abilities like Speed Save (and perhaps Damage Split if provided) will become much more powerful than before if used in a very high defensive team. However, that's provided if you can survive that long. And what if this unit is charmed? How about throwing status effects into the mix. All status effects, including Poison will also be more powerful. It's going to take sometime to adjust and rebalance the game, but it's not impossible.

I used to play Fighting Game tournaments in our local arcades so I know what you mean. However, fighting games do not always revolve around strategy. It's mostly about who can abuse the longest chain of combos more than strategy. If you can imagine playing in a fighting game where most 3 hit combos kill one guy, I am sure you'll probably never bother go watch the tourneys. In other words, even fighting games last long enough to let players survive very strong combos. Long enough to give the opponent a chance to comeback.

But I firmly believe a good balance can be achieved. Heavy Damage focussed teams will still be viable, because weak offensive teams will take much longer (3-4 guys) to kill one, while the strong offensive team will be able to wipe out unit by unit much more quickly. You'll have to rethink and plan out the setups a bit so that you are able to achieve the proper balance between offense, defense and status.

While game length might not determine how competitive a game is, however, the best match ups are those where a lot of strategies / tech / skills / combos being used creatively. Lengthier games allow more room for players to be creative, is more forgiving and giving players chances to do come backs, etc. The most entertaining matchups (in games of all genres) are usually long enough to show more than just a chain of crits or an early game rush. At least that is my opinion.

Longer matches with heftier units doesn't make the chances at the comeback any easier.  Once you're down its usually cyclic unless you get lucky with counter flood and/or charm -- that's just how the AT works.  Using wow as a horrible example, if a 5v5 turns into a 3v5, how often does the team with 3 win?  

See here.  Hefty ass unit, takes eight minutes to kill.  See all the comebacks?  no?  Really?

@philsov, thanks for the video.

Perhaps there need to be more changes to defensive abilities than just adjusting the HP. At its current state, maybe FFT really does need better healer skills/jobs. WoW maybe isn't a good example (although 4v5 or 2v3 can do comebacks), but it is a game where you don't die in one-two shots. Healers are VERY important in theat game, to the point where they are usually the first primary target.

Wait for videos to come out, then say stuff.

Maybe you should actually watch all the S3 Tourney videos

Quote from: "philsov (something to the effect of)"Ok, this battle is taking ridiculously long, and I'm tired of announcing the massive sandbaggery taking place here, so I'm just going to throw on some music.

*Queue clever mashups*

Haha I usually think these types of remixes are really stupid, mostly because they remind me of a college roommate who thought that they (and therefore, he) were so cool, when everyone else hated them. But I thought these were awesome, and they're almost perfect for use in videos like this.

Also, holy crap why couldn't the ninja do more damage in one swipe than the time mage's clubbing?

Just realised why some of the damage numbers for that run were so low. At 40 Fury, my units would be doing about half as much as 70 Fury. Because Fury counts for double with weapons like Fists.

So Fist damage would be something like
PA * PA * Fury * (Fury+35) * (Enemy Fury + 35) / 1000000

So that was bad on my part.

But for Meatbone... can't really do much.

Quote from: "FFMaster"But that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind more HP on units. Right now, too much shit is getting 1-shotted.

Just look at my first match with randomguyH

You guys got 1 more day to send in teams. Go go go go go!

Okay guys. Do to some IRL problems, I can't be as active. Therefore, somebody has to take over for now.

Expect 1-2 videos within 20 hours, if not sooner. Kind of busy right now, but will have plenty of time later.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRhdFeSm5mE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRhdFeSm5mE) - ProRPGGamer vs. Smitson
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx76hEAxtkU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx76hEAxtkU) - AeroGP vs. degrofm

Damn, I wish I'd have known about this - I would have sent in a team.

Whaat?
No one with faith rod + short charge+status? Ok? No tanks with save the queen, damage split, defense up, regen, move-hp up? Seriusly?

@first match: how the hell did the chemist manage 281 damage in one shot with mythril gun (trying to weapon break) ??????
I know it was good compat (virgo and capricorn), but still, mythril gun has only 5 wp! Unless my eyes fooled me, there's something wrong (did you change gun damage calculation?)

And a gunner with concentrate... guns don't miss iirc o_O I don't get it...

FFT: Arena - Dokurider vs. FFMaster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHzepPFGe8I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHzepPFGe8I)


Due to a massive bug with the formula change to Mythril Gun, we are going to have to change it back to WP*WP.

EDIT:
FFT: Arena - logus vs. Zaen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUBAIkqPa0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUBAIkqPa0)

Quote from: "FFMaster"FFT: Arena - Dokurider vs. FFMaster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHzepPFGe8I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHzepPFGe8I)


Due to a massive bug with the formula change to Mythril Gun, we are going to have to change it back to WP*WP.

EDIT:
FFT: Arena - logus vs. Zaen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUBAIkqPa0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZUBAIkqPa0)

I didn't catch this until just now, but PX made me change my Mediator to male.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTc6C6xda28 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTc6C6xda28)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd33YuB_hgQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd33YuB_hgQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVLuM7-mQ4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTVLuM7-mQ4)

alright so, what I've seen so far(judging my team since it's what I watched the most, will analyze other teams as I watch more carefully):

fury hack:
Seemed to work fine. It made 40/40 DO users good, but DO will get nerfed anyways.

equipment-wise:

arbalest is somewhat strong. My archer was very vulnerable though, and anything with flee would make a joke out of him. We need to see more defensive teams to check out how fury/equipments are.

Blood sword is the obvious exception to the above. 10 wp with 2-hands/2-swords and drain is too good. Heck, you can 108 gems, and no equipment helps you against dark. It's good even as a 1-handed weapon, due to packing a shield and going happy with concentrate/atk up. Solutions:
1. forced 2-hands (less of a tank, no shield, no damage raising except for atk up, and can't have concentrate with that, can we?).
2. Reduce wp to 7 (zodiac suggested 8, but eeh... I'm not sure 8 is low enough)
I still think it should drain hp tho, it's the "thing" of the sword. We just need to balance it.

Stone gun is a very strong weapon. Sure, you have the "problem" of having to heal the guy, but in a large map you get a big advantage since initial actions are expendable. I'm not sure what to suggest on this one. Range down to 4 seems gay, reduction of wp seems meh. The issue is that the gun never misses, doesn't depend on anything to deal awsm damage, so you can use more tanky stuff and still do great. Seems a bit too good compared to the other choices...

Faith Rod: as someone posted, no one really tried status'ing with this, my guess is it would be nice. I have yet to see faith rod as a big vulnerability, as it didn't seem to influentiate a lot (the casters would die with 70 faith or 100 faith, it didn't really matter, but it improved their damage otherwise).

setiemson is STRONG. makes you double turn too easily at the simple expense of your accessory. Give weapons init:haste, but not accessories, imo. Especially perfumes, pulling even more people to females...

vanish mantle: lol, px was on drugs. Always: Vanish (read as Innate Concentrate) shouldn't be there, especially for accessory (maybe some specific clothing/robe with drawbacks?). Too bad I went for reflect ring afraid of magic with my archer. A cool solution would be to make it so that the owner kinda got "sunken state" as a reaction, but that must be impossible to code...

Well, a basic solution would be init:vanish, 25/30 eva, looking like 1.3's... til we find a cooler solution.


Skill:
Masamune is balanced, I thought it would be too good, but damn regen keeps getting in the way so, it looks ok. Didn't use the shell/protect one, but that one should be nice (I'll probably replace masamune with it next time).

But every agressive DO obviously needs a kick in the nuts. As already discussed, faith formula is a solution, but if it is applied, I suggest that we also double the DO constants. Else it will be too weak to be decently used... 40 faith is just going to laugh at you. 70 against 70 will do 49% of the damage, so, barely the same damage(ok, maybe constants* 1.8~). It forced you to go 70 faith(vulnerable to magic) and if the guy got enough meat he will survive. It is also a good way to punish faith rod.

Maybe reduce Kiku range to 4? 5 is a bit more than it needs imo, even with faith formula.

I think oracle's skills need a little lift (5-10% ?) in their formulas. Low faith screws them too much, and they should be able to do status more reliably than a mediator (they have charge times and charging status ffs!). But then again, faith rod is there, we need more testing.

Another thing is charging status. 150% damage = "please, rape me." 120-125% would be fine. And charm/confusion not canceling it would also be good.

And, last but not least, zodiac made some good considerations on using more elemental armors/clothes and stuff. I wish he posted his ideas here.

EDIT: Almost forgot. BUFF SQUIDS!

Diamond Shield is 15% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Immune Slow/Stop/Sleep
Diamond Helmet is 80HP, 20MP, Immune Darkness/Confusion/Berserk
Diamond Armor is 120HP, 10MP, Immune Silence/Frog/Poison
Gold Helmet is 90HP, Weak Lightning, Half Earth
Gold Armor is 120HP, Weak Lightning, Half Earth
Black Hood is 120HP, Weak Holy, Immune Darkness (status)

Reduce twisted headband's HP; +2PA is a killer and barely has less HP than the other hats
Silk Robe is 80HP, 25MP, Immune: Petrify, Blood Suck, Undead, Confusion, Frog, Berserk

Lower Helmet's HP by about 25-30%
Buff the Genji Helmet/Armor, 50HP is ridiculous and the +1MA is cool at best in most cases, it will never create a real advantage like the +1PA does. 70HP helmet and 90HP armor would be fine from what I see. Else there's no reason to use them.

your silk robe is broken zodiac, it needs less hp for all that stat protection.

Also, the same problem that applies to the genji armor and helmet applies to the gauntlet:

you rarely if ever will need +2 PA AND +2 MA, so the weakness throws the gauntlet to garbage, since you got power wrist for +2PA and no penalty, and magic gauntlet for +2MA and no penalty. I'd say +3 PA/MA and the weaknesses, that should make it usable. perhaps +4, not sure if +1 stat is worth the weakness, but then again, not everyone is out there with elemental stuff to fuck you, so keep it at +3.

Also, mythril sword is Flame Sword: 10 W Fire Elemental

good to give healing ability to knights with team packing black costume,  countered by black costume itself among other stuff. Comments?

:more:  :more:  :more:  :more:

Question. If I unlock the job with 250jp. Can I use those 250jp get abilties?

not that I'm aware of, shade.

Materia Blade/Sword of Might is somewhat useless, no? forced 2-hands, same WP as other 1-handed weapons, +2 pa? I can't really picture an efficient way to use it that would be better than another 1-handed sword with a shield or supportive (2-hands/2-swords).

katanas need to be remodeled. The ones we got now haven't taken in consideration that katana is (br/100)*WP*PA, which will make them always weaker than the other weapons. The bad thing is that only samurai can use them without wasting a support, so I'd say you give them special effects (I really liked kyomori and  chiri) instead of pure fighting power (samurais would be usually doing DO anyways). Doesn't mean we can't have some strong katanas as well, but you'd only need one for whoever tries a physical/hybrid samurai (hybrid since, with faith formula, you can't  smack low faith people down with DO anymore).

orichalcum dagger makes little sense, AI has too much of a hard time with protect/shell (unless we test and it shows otherwise).
Reduce Main Gauche and Assassin Dagger W-EV by 5% (I guess? maybe 10%). 2 swords + abandon = main gauche makes you way too hard to hit keeping a good WP. And you didn't even need an accessory! You could also try limiting one main gauche per character, or just reduce WP to 7.

Nagrarock could be a holy elemental sword. Maybe healing as well? 10 WP anyways, to keep the pattern. I'll edit this post as more ideas come to mind.

btw why is Madlemgen is weaker then Papyrus Plate?
I mean dark holy is weaker then flare.

Dark Holy is boost-able.

boost able by only one item in game, then undead drain it and we have n-kai armlet.

Isn't save the queen little bit WAY TOO GOD MODDED!
I mean it has 13wp and always: protect(can't say it right).
To me it seems alot more powerful then other knight swords.

The others either have tons of EV, ini haste and strengthen holy + holy element + absorb holy, or cast awesome magic.

any spell casted by PA based knight isn't going to do alot of damage with those spells.

those excalibures are pretty bad againts anyone wielding te same weapon, but if enemy doesn't then it's fine weapon.

Defender is alomost good as save the queen, cause of 14wp and 50% evade.

BTW That blood sword should be 8wp at max. Also that the weapon s boost able and even if you would try reduce the damage by equipin n-kai armlet it would not work since the damm weapon's ability is drain hp or something and it avoids all half darkness and crap like that.

Hamedo/Counter with two-handed/sworded Blood Sword=destroys melee.

Hamedo/Counter with two-sword Long Sword/Blood Sword=destroys melee and spears. Wait does the long sword attack at only two range or is it like a spear?

Zodiac is waaay too strong, one cast could destroy an entire team.

melee means also gun shots, arrow shots and another skills

zodiac is imposisble to get with short charge. only thing that you can reduce is mp cost and maybe MA UP. CT 10 is long time to wait.

I think meteor is ALOT better since you can get it with short charge.

Neither can be obtained with Short Charge.

When you say 250jp to unlock a job, is that a straight-to-job cost? Or do we just substitute 250 for each job cost in the original prerequisites?

straight-to-job.

example: I wanna have a thief using 2 main gauches, break skills and move-HP Up. I'll have to spend:
250 to open thief.
250 to open monk, +270 to open move-hp up
250 to open ninja, +900 for two swords.
250 to open knight, + whatever for break skills.

that's 2170 + whatever for break skills on knight.

Also, ffs, read what other people have already posted so you don't make redundant posts (looks at blood sword whining). Yes, pretty much everything above 2000 jp is unusable/too situational. hamedo/counter ideas are not exactly as strong without golem and balanced damage(ranged weapons being almost as good as melee weapons). No one even tried throw yet (pretty sure I should), so counter/hamedo is not viable as a strategy yet.

Actually... I tried throw, but it didn't work out too well.

50 jp less and you could get meteor and short charge.


Edit:

I made my own team based on one idea for the hell of it.

what's the point of making a team using stuff that will obviously be changed *looks at vanish mantle*.

@zaen: yea, but in our fight, I don't remember seeing you use throw. You also gotta take in consideration that I was using Draw Out (broken) and  bahamut with short charge/faith rod/setiemson(broken). Draw Out already has a proposed solution, setiemson will probably gtfo, and I don't think anyone found a good idea for bahamut (faith rod stays, maybe a drawback for it).

It was on the lancer. He died too fast.

As you already ignore, Arena will use a group of 8 colors for generic human palettes...
But what about monsters? I know it can create confusion for some monsters:
Black Chocobo
Red Chocobo
Black Goblin
Dark Behemoth
Blue Dragon
Red Dragon
etc.

But I think it would be fun to see monsters of other colors too. However I'm still uncertain about this whole matter.

For the Chocobos,
maybe we could just change the eye and leg color for them.
For example, A yellow chocobo having black eyes and legs, then having blue eyes and legs.. etc..
How's that? It'll look strange but I think it's worth a try..

For others as well, we could just change their secondary colors..
Hmm.. I don't really know..

8 palettes per monster, as opposed to per group? That could be very interesting, though a challenge to pull off.

8 different pallettes for monsters seem as though it could be interesting, but since it's ultimately fluff (and fluff that would take some time AND potentially be confusing), it's a staggeringly low priority IMO.

"We" should focus on trying to make so that people will potentially use more than just the types of monsters that absorb Fire or have Ulmaguest or have Nose Bracelet. I mean, besides those, the only ones that currently seem usable are Blue Dragons and, though none of these got used in S3, Black Goblins, Black Chocobos and, maybe, Ghosts with their Blade Grasp.

So...are there any plans on about how do this? Monsters will always have less abilities than any human, so it seems like one would have to focus on stuff like innates, immunities and elemental affinities (or lack thereof, since I'm assuming quite a lot of the reason that some monsters didn't get used at all was because of weakness to all the [Ice] magic that was flying around).

Otherwise, good job in spearheading this PX and Zodiac.

what if we just made all monsters like byblos or worker 8? That too would also solve the palette issue, since instead of 'Red Dragon' or 'Blue Dragon' it'd just be 'Dragon', though this would probably require some re-imagining of the dragon monsters, since their abilities are so integrated with the elemental variant traits. , All the other monsters lack such large variance between tiers, excepting maybe the skeleton monsters and the various -soul attacks.

Okay, time to take this slowly. One part at a time. So let's start off with daggers. Discuss what you want changed here and what you like.

I'd say we have to lower their WP a little bit since everything else got slashed more, while these got buff. I'd also like to change one of them into a Glacial Blade: Ice Element, Chance to add slow.

Daggers
Daggers lose +1 SP
Dagger is now 11 PA and +1 SP and 0% W-EV and Non-Two Swords able
Mythril Knife is now Poison Knife: 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Chance to poison on hit
Blind Knife is now 10 WP and 15% W-EV. On hit chance to cause Blind
Mage Masher is now 6 WP, 15% W-EV, 25% to cast Magic Ruin on hit
Platina Dagger is now Azoth Blade: 2 WP, +2 MA, 15% W-EV, 25% Chance to cast on hit a spell that deals ((MA+6)/2*MA)
Main Gauche is 9 WP and 35% W-EV
Orichalcum is now 8 WP, 20% W-EV, On hit cancels Protect/Shell
Assassin Dagger is 7 WP and 25% W-EV, Chance to cause Death Sentence on hit
Air Knives are 8 WP and 25%, W-EV Wind Element
Zorlin Shape are 9 WP and 15% W-EV, Chance to hit causes Sleep

I'm not sure if everything need a WP slash across the board. In fact, the only Knife that I think "needs" a WP reduction is Dagger since the user can still equip Shields and Mantles and Abandon to have godly evade. Maybe Mythril Knife, Blind Knife, Main Gauche and maybe Zorlin Shape stand to lose a WP point. Mage Masher could see a WP point increase maybe.

As for your Glacial Blade, you can just use Orichalcum's spot, since as someone said earlier, the computer has no way of taking advantage of the "cancels Protect and Shell" on hit. (Although, admittedly, I'm not sure if the computer takes advantage of most weapon procs.)

That or Assassin Dagger since the computer acts stupid with regards to Death Sentence, though we've at least seen that with S3 that Death Sentence can be built around.

Regardless, Skip Sandwich's proposal for monsters sounds interesting.

well, daggers should serve mainly as a status proc source.

@Damned: yea I said that, but you misunderstood it a bit. The problem is not that the ai can't take advantage of procs (it can and does so quite often), but that the ai is not smart to use protect/shell in the first place, and you can't break something like "Always:shell", making the orichalcum we have now just useless.
Also, which class can equip a dagger and a shield? Squire only iirc, and I don't see it being usable any time soon.

Now, some ideas:
I completely agree with the orichalcum = glacial blade.

Assassin Dagger should be 0%EV, 0 wp if possible (would it be possible to do 0 damage so you can combo sleep +ds? since charm +ds is useless now), else 1WP and regardless of the case, add proc "Dead" (yes, 25% chance to add DS and another 25% to add dead, if possible). It'd give a bit more consideration for status protection.

Dagger is dumb, I don't see any real reason  to use it over the ninja knife with 12 WP except for the +1 speed (and when you take in account that such speed point is counting half towards damage...eeh). Sure, +1 speed is quite good, but women still got bags and you probably want harder hitting males.

I still disagree on main gauche having 35% EV. Make it 30% or lower wp, imo.

still have to see azoth/platina being used...

and this pretty much summarizes the rest:

QuoteMaybe Mythril Knife, Blind Knife, Main Gauche and maybe Zorlin Shape stand to lose a WP point. Mage Masher could see a WP point increase maybe.

the only disagreement is that "maybe". Zorlin shape NEEDS to lose wp. Sleep is very powerful imo, much better than other status in AI fights (only because charm is nerfed though).

Well, the reason we're not seeing use of things is because of the narrow range of user play styles. I don't think 8 people is enough to gauge what will be used or not. Maybe if there's a larger scale of testing, say 16 different people, or whatever works, there doesn't even need to be a bracket.

Once large scale testing is done, we'll know what to change. Also, it's like getting used to a new game. 1 match isn't enough to get used to everything. I mean, there's no storymode for this, so it might take some time to adapt.

@zaen: a lotta ideas were given after the first tourney, let them all be changed before we make another one. And this, taking it slow, seems good, since px is probably just as busy as anyone else here. This gives us quite enough time plan equipments decently and allows more input. So please, give your input on the daggers, use your imagination of what could be abused and what just seems to have no use, criticise it and everyone thinks a solution out.

Quote from: "logus"Also, which class can equip a dagger and a shield? Squire only iirc, and I don't see it being usable any time soon.

For the record, I had meant Equip Shield since it's pretty decent with Abandon.

Otherwise, I agree that Zorlin Shape needs to lose WP definitely. Still not sure about the others. Thank you for correcting me about the Orichalum thing though.

I downloaded the patch and i noticed that it's not a ppf file.  Is there a certain way I'm supposed to patch it?

FFTPatcher.

Oh fuck me... I can't download that on my Mac...  thats my only issue with apple, i can't play games the way i want to..

Or at all in most cases.

So...any progress, PX?

I'm pretty much in front of my computer 24/7 for the foreseeable future if you need someone to test something.

Quote from: "The Damned"So...any progress, PX?

I'm pretty much in front of my computer 24/7 for the foreseeable future if you need someone to test something.

I'm so envious of you D:

I take it that px is somewhat busy with school, as he is usually speaking on mirc from a library pc... perhaps he could share with you so you make the edits?

Daggers
Daggers lose +1 SP
Dagger is now 10 PA and +1 SP and 10% W-EV and Non-Two Swords able
Mythril Knife is now Poison Knife: 8 WP, 10% W-EV, Chance to poison on hit
Blind Knife is now 8 WP and 10% W-EV. On hit chance to cause Blind
Mage Masher is now 6 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% to cast Magic Ruin on hit
Platina Dagger is now Azoth Blade: 2 WP, +2 MA, 15% W-EV, 25% Chance to cast on hit a spell that deals ((MA+6)/2*MA)
Main Gauche is 7 WP and 25% W-EV
Orichalcum is now Glacial Blade: 5 WP, 10% W-EV, 25% Chance on inflicting slow
Assassin Dagger is 6 WP and 15% W-EV, Chance to cause Death Sentence on hit
Air Knives are 8 WP and 15%, W-EV Wind Element
Zorlin Shape are 7 WP and 8% W-EV, Chance to hit causes Sleep

Next

Ninja Swords
Hidden Knife is 8 WP, 0% W-EV, and Always: Transparent
Ninja Knife is dead
Short Edge is 12 WP and 0% W-EV
Ninja Edge is 10 WP and 20% W-EV
Spell Edge is 9 WP and 15% W-EV, Chance on hit inflict Don't Act
Sasuke Knife is 7 WP, 15% W-EV, +1 Speed
Iga/Koga are 7 WP, 20% W-EV

Uh... I'm not sure here. A W-EV slash by a few points, but otherwise I don't see problems.

I don't think they really need to lose wp, although I admit that due to them being still a natural weapon to thieves it may be a bit strong to have two-weapons 2 short edge, due to the innate concentrate. Whatever thief can use should be a bit lower in wp than the rest, since he gets concentrate for free.

You could always make ninja unique by eliminating thieves' option to use said ninja swords but eh, seems too limiting. Guess you better slash 1-2 wp of hidden (common, free concentrate is quite good), 1-2 from short edge and maybe 1 wp from spell edge.

PX, I take it the AI can see Transparent beings in the Arena hack? (EDIT: If I had taken the time to look at the first post again like I usually do before asking a question, then I would see that it can. So please disregard this. Damned sleepiness.)

Even then, Ninja Knife seems like it might be a tad overpowered.

All the ninja knives could probably stand to lose both 1 WP and some EV, if only because they're pretty much always going to be used with Two Swords. Spell Edge could probably afford to lose 2 WP or more, if only because Don't Act is really powerful.

Also, is Glacial Blade still a Dagger or is it supposed to be a sword now? I ask for both clarification and because there might be some graphical errors in the case of the latter.

Quote from: "logus"I'm so envious of you D:

It's really not something to be envious of for various reasons.

Yes, Dagger.

Iga/Koga seem crappy. They're worse than everything else in the type, unless there's something hidden about them... might want to make up for the lower WP somehow?

It just occurred to me that I keep forgetting to mention this.

PX, are you aware that giving something 0 range doesn't work by itself? That said, it seems like turning off all the attack options, i.e. lunging, striking, etc. seems to make the weapon unable to function in the same way that 0 range would.

If you turn off all weapon options, it will function like a hybrid between a dictionary and a longbow.  Meaning the minimum range is 3, the maximum effective range is 4, the height tolerance is 3, but the display will show you able to target all panels with +/- 2 height = +/- 1 extra range even though your height tolerance forbids you from actually hitting such units.

Sorry guys, but if you've been on chat you'd know that I'm bitching about my comp. It's pretty much fucked up, and I wont be able to work on this for a while. If anyone would like to pick up the work, it's all in the first post.