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Job & Skill Proposals/Idea Thread

Started by Vanya, November 21, 2009, 11:35:58 am

Orlandu

November 24, 2009, 12:50:52 pm #20 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Orlandu
imho, the stat growth should be more or less like geomancer, but the modifier should be magic focused.. at least that what i'd do if i make a blue mage.

something like
12  90  9  110  95  100  45  100  45  125  4  3  10

well, that's me.

SilvasRuin

November 24, 2009, 02:54:55 pm #21 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
Quote from: "jimmyjw88"Hmm....so meaning each abilities required some souls to use the skills? Like what you suggest about Samurai's skills using katana? So, for Blue Mage to use the skills, example, choco meteor, required muramasa, to use?

Yes, that's the basic idea, but you could be more creative than that.  An idea I like is changing each katana to something more relevant to the monster you obtain it from, like making one gotten from a tonberry into a knife, for example.


I agree to the magic focused geomancer stats.  Hm...  maybe if a lot of their abilities are short-range spells, it would make players more inclined to go with something with more HP than one of the other mages.  If Blue Mage is given high HP for a spellcaster, it would make it more ideal for its own skillset than one of the other mages.  I definitely recommend it has fairly good hp modifiers at least.  I'm not sure how to justify giving it enough MA to be damaging and still pack enough punch in PA to make melee attacking a reasonable choice.  I suppose you run into the same problem trying to make any jack-of-all-trades useful.  Perhaps if such jobs are given more lenience in overall stats, they can manage to have multiple stats at a respectable level without being able to overshadow any of the "pure stat" jobs?

RavenOfRazgriz

November 24, 2009, 04:05:34 pm #22 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"I agree to the magic focused geomancer stats.  Hm...  maybe if a lot of their abilities are short-range spells, it would make players more inclined to go with something with more HP than one of the other mages.  If Blue Mage is given high HP for a spellcaster, it would make it more ideal for its own skillset than one of the other mages.  I definitely recommend it has fairly good hp modifiers at least.  I'm not sure how to justify giving it enough MA to be damaging and still pack enough punch in PA to make melee attacking a reasonable choice.  I suppose you run into the same problem trying to make any jack-of-all-trades useful.  Perhaps if such jobs are given more lenience in overall stats, they can manage to have multiple stats at a respectable level without being able to overshadow any of the "pure stat" jobs?

You could always give the class decent growths, higher multipliers, make it have innate Secret Hunt so it can poach said animal spirits, then give all the spirits a 100% break rate in addition to the MP cost, to symbolize said Blue Mage "consuming" the Spirit to use the attack?

Since there would be no difference between common/rare poach and you could make the "spirit" required to use the ability a poach from every species in that monster class, keeping a viable stock shouldn't be hard... it'd just make actually spamming the abilities require the player to farm like a bitch.  It'd make the magic require care to use, but the Blue Mage's superior stats compared to other mages (meaning proficiency with many Secondaries and better melee capacity) can more than compensate for those times it can't drop magic all over the place like primordial jizz.

Y/N?

Dome

November 24, 2009, 04:12:21 pm #23 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dome
Just my 2 cents
The whole "Spirit" thing needed to use the blue magic skill sucks
The "monsters can spam them without CT and Mp with higher stats than humans, while the Humans unit cannot" part seems good to me
So, IMHO the best thing to do is:

- Give to every monster innate non-charge
- To balance the monster skills, give them a fair ct and mp cost

In this way, humans will do less damage with monster skill (Monster stats>human stats) and they will need to use mp, but they can also have more versatility than a monster
P.s: I agree that a blue mage should have better stats than a normal mage

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

SilvasRuin

November 24, 2009, 09:03:15 pm #24 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
That is what I was thinking, RavenOfRazgriz.

Dome, that is why multiple variations are going to be listed.  Not everyone is going to like one specific setup.

Orlandu

November 24, 2009, 11:55:03 pm #25 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Orlandu
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"I definitely recommend it has fairly good hp modifiers at least.  I'm not sure how to justify giving it enough MA to be damaging and still pack enough punch in PA to make melee attacking a reasonable choice.  

i think you should choose between higher HPM and MA, or PA and MA... because if blue mage excel in HPM, PA, MA...  :gay:

RavenOfRazgriz

November 25, 2009, 12:33:35 am #26 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"That is what I was thinking, RavenOfRazgriz.

iirc, 1.3 Samurais already kind of classify as what you need a Blue Mage to be anyway - powerful PA, MA, decent HP.  While you may need to buff the HP multiplier a bit since I doubt a Blue Mage will be sporting Heavy Armor (hell, my almost straight 1.3 Female Samurai has less HP with a Circlet than my almost straight 1.3 Female Oracle with a Flash Hat, with the same Robe equipped...), it seems like the Samurai is actually your perfect template in more ways than one.

SilvasRuin

November 25, 2009, 03:48:10 am #27 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
Quote from: "Orlandu"
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"I definitely recommend it has fairly good hp modifiers at least.  I'm not sure how to justify giving it enough MA to be damaging and still pack enough punch in PA to make melee attacking a reasonable choice.  

i think you should choose between higher HPM and MA, or PA and MA... because if blue mage excel in HPM, PA, MA...  :gay:

They shouldn't excel at anything.  No stat of theirs should surpass a more specialized job.  That said, the stats should still be high enough to actually see some use.
A Blue Mage without decent HP would suck.  Many traditional Blue Magic spells don't strike me as long range, and any PA they would have would be useless if they can't survive long enough to to actually get in some hits.  They're the type of unit that is likely to be in the fray at all times, and yeah... they're not going to have heavy armor.  (Or at least it doesn't match the concept.)
You could change the formula of whatever weapons they use to use either the (PA+MA)/2*WP formula or the MA*WP formula, but somehow I think that it would be unreasonable to assume that you would be any less against that than Blue Mage "excelling" in PA since it has the same outcome.


I suppose my stance on jack-of-all-trades is this:  Any job that has its stats spread too thinly is useless, but certain traditional concepts wouldn't fit any other mold.  I don't think giving a jack-of-all-trades job a certain percentage of the stats of more specialized jobs would ever be enough to oust the usefulness of those jobs, and with the percentage tweaked right, it should be useful enough to be able to substitute itself into those roles as needed without being horrible at it.

On a slightly different subject, in my opinion, I see Red Mage as being the faster job and Blue Mage being the bulkier, meatier job.  I suppose that comes with the association I have of Red Mages to magic fencers and Blue Mages to monsters like Malboros, Dragons, and Behemoths.  Then again, FFIII has Red Mages equipping certain knight equipment towards the end of the game (Excalibur and shields at least), and Blue Mages have an arguably more ninja-like look to them...

jimmyjw88

November 25, 2009, 09:40:09 am #28 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
Yeah, I think they should have roughly around Geomancer's stats. As for attack formula, PA and MA, I'm not sure about this. They just have to balance, not weak nor strong. And yes, definitely need good HP or else they can't really learn any skills as can't stay alive for long.
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Vanya

November 25, 2009, 03:14:29 pm #29 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
Blue mages have in different iterations tended towards basic mage weapon proficiency (rods/wands) and light blades (knives/standard swords). So giving them a like mix of weapon options should make them versatile without being overly powerful in either direction.
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Wasabi

November 25, 2009, 08:51:25 pm #30 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Wasabi
Vanya, I agree with your assessments on Blue Mages and making them speed based. They also have a decent amount of MP, a step or two lower than the Summoner, but enough so that they can deal and surmount the high costs for each of the monster skills they learn. The idea of giving Monster Skills an MP and CT value, while giving all monsters innate Non-charge/CT 0, is the right path to go as well.

In my patch, I've given them growths comparable to most of the mage classes, such as the Black Mages PA, Time Mages MA, Thieves SP (not so much tbh), Summoner's MP etc., but their multipliers are just shy from their amounts aside from Black Mages PA, in which I feel should be higher. Considering that they can equip knives and light swords, they have a melee component to them as well, and this should be considered within a Blue Mage build. However, in terms of HP growth and multiplier, it should be kept decently low/moderate. Not to the point of a regular mage build, but akin to a job that usually equips light armor/robes and can keep up with damage on the field (Squire, Archer, Geomancer, etc.).

Blue Mages can be made into a jack of all trades, but that doesn't they cannot be a master of none as well. It's just a matter of looking at the stats under Patcher and re-balancing them for the Blue Mage within a slight margin. The same can be said for the Red Mage, but as for them I have no solid clue how their skillset is made, and how effective they can be with them on the map.

Vanya

November 25, 2009, 11:59:27 pm #31 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
Thanks for the input from your project, Wasabi.
I think we've got a good consensus about the Blue Mage now. I will begin building a tutorial for them in the next few days.
If anyone else has any more ideas about them, please feel free to continue the discussion.

Since you mentioned the Red Mage, Wasabi, I think that should be the second subject of this discussion.
I've been thinking about how to best execute thins job ever since I first started learning how to use the patcher a couple of years back.
I've seen a couple of ideas emerge in that time as well. The two most prominent ideas I've seen are to either have them use custom spells that have very short CT making them a sort of speed mage or spells that have the ability to hit multiple times. Neither of these are consistent with the traditional dual casting variety found in most games. My own idea for them would require an ASM hack to overhaul the Calculator skillset to cast two spells independently as chosen by the spell lists it already uses. This promises to be an exceedingly difficult hack however.

Before we delve into discussing the possibilities for the Red Mage I'd like to point out that the original Red Mage/Wizard in FF1 didn't have dual cast at all. They were basically just fair warriors with fair magical ability and speed, but with a massive arsenal of spells at their disposal. But even that aspect of them seems like it would take some ASM hacking to get to work.

But enough talk! Have at you!
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Skip Sandwich

November 26, 2009, 12:59:16 am #32 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
Well, with the way that the job system works in FFT, there are really only three places that a red mage could fit in the job tree, since its most basic version is simply a priest with black magic secondary and equip sword/short charge.

A) nowhere, by which I mean restriciting the red mage to a special character, this and option C are the most compatible with custom spells

B) at the bottom, as  the point of divergance between the more focused mage jobs (in other words, replacing chemist as the basic mage job) this is probablly the best option to preserve the original FF flavor, but would require retooling the skill lists of those mages the red mage borrows spells from in order to remove redundancy. One such approach would be to give the red mage tier 1 and 2 spells from black, white, yin-yang and time magic, and give some bonus spells to the priest, wizard, time mage and oracle to compensate.

C) at the top, as a universal master job, much like the 1.3 sage, as mentioned earlier, this and optioin A are probablly the most compatible with giving the red mage unique abilities.
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jimmyjw88

November 26, 2009, 02:29:43 am #33 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
Hmm....I feel that Red Mage should have some unique abilities rather than just compilation of all the existing mages' abilities. What's Red Mage like in other FFs?
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ronan

November 26, 2009, 10:09:22 am #34 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by ronan
They mostly use spells from other skillsets, especially white and black magic, but they may have access to some unique spells. Double cast, or fast cast, is also a typical ability:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage

jimmyjw88

November 26, 2009, 10:51:13 am #35 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
Ah, I see. Thanks. Hmm...would be nice with some unique abilities.
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Dormin Jake

November 26, 2009, 11:39:52 am #36 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dormin Jake
The best place I can think to look for unique Red Mage abilities is FFXI, where they are a combination of classic Red Mage (black and white spells with a sword), FFT Oracle (enfeebling magic), and FFV Mystic Knight (giving elemental properties to physical attacks):

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_ ... tasy_XI%29

The only thing that's really unique about that are the En-spells (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Enspell).  So...you could make Red Mage a fighter that can attack from melee with all 8 elements, plus a sampling of White/Black/Yin-Yang/Time Magic.

If'n you wanted.
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mav

November 26, 2009, 12:28:52 pm #37 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by mav
While I do prefer the more traditional style Red Mage (i.e. a sampling of White and Black Mages, perhaps with Dual Cast), I feel that the idea Dormin just mentioned could easily work as a standalone class.

Shade

November 26, 2009, 03:40:48 pm #38 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Shade
or we could make blue mages without any equips or ablities to be equiped expect their own skillset. Can we do this on mime class?
Upupupu...

Zetsubou

Wasabi

November 26, 2009, 11:08:08 pm #39 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Wasabi
For the Red Mages, in retrospect to the FF1 version, I've always assembled them as melee fighters with enfeeble magic spells. When applying that logic into the job tree in Tactics, the ideal of replacing it over Calculator is a good endeavor. For elemental attack spells, that may be difficult to discuss, but imo I would like them to be weaker versions of the Truth/Untruth skillset, with a quicker CT and have an MP cost. I would like these "random hit" formulas to work on enfeebling magic as well, but I'm not exactly sure how much percentage is calculated on hit for status inflictions (formula 5E "Dark Whisper" inflicts Dead & Sleep at 6.25% for each status, correct?). For the tiers on their elemental attacks spells, I feel that at maximum tier 1 to 3 is a good start, but I don't mind if only tiers 1 to 2 is a good restriction, considering that if we do use formulas 1E or 5E for these spells a 3rd tier spell may be too overpowering (and the extra 3 slots could be used for more enfeebling spells. It's just a matter of juggling around additional Y values, or X hit values.

The only roadblock I see are cure spells. I would like to make them unique, but considering how restricted some of the formulas are in Patcher the only idea that comes to mind is making one element a healing element across the board. Outside of ASM hacking, formula 1E/5E could be used in this application.

Enforcing a restricted "dualcast" or double cast component to the ability themselves sounds a bit ridiculous, considering that I don't see any benefit in having one ability hitting twice in a row. Mind you, I'm making this judgment from what I've seen from a Mercernaries mechanics trailer involving Rad's double-casting spells, so that's my only experience of how a double-casting spell would emulate on the field. However, an ASM hack on the Calculator skillset, as Vanya described where the abilities within the skillset are listed twice in a row to emulate a "dualcast"-ing action is phenomenal imo. An arduous task to work on, but worthwhile one at that. I hope this is possible.

And if this hasn't been mentioned yet, spells emulating Zalbag's "Ruin" swordskills would be a worthwhile input. I've always felt that those abilities would work great for the Red Mage as great enfeebling spells. These should go into their skillset I believe.