BETA 129 planned changes *DISCUSSION*

[FFMaster]

Changelog
GENERAL
- Fixed Yin Yang Magic bug in the memcard generator and a bunch of other text
- Fixed Genji Shield
- Fixed Carpets

JOBS
- Paladin gains 1 Jump
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 25
- Thief gains innate Awareness

SKILLS
- Throw Stone now deals PA*8 damage, M-EV
- Grand Cross will now stay Weapon element, 12 MP, loses Add: Darkness
- Charge renamed to Snipe
- Greased Bolt now Add: Oil, Poison
- Hawk's Eye and equipment breaks added Archer skillset
- Thief loses all steals except for Steal Heart Steal Accessory
- Thief gains 4 new abilities
- Steal Accessory down to 300 JP
- All Elementals now cost 50 JP (if you buy all of them, its 600JP, removes 1 rule)
- Elemental Y increased back to 4
- Nightslayer renamed to Haku Korosu
- Shadowstrike renamed to Kagesougi
- Shinobi's Seal renamed to Doku no Kyoukai
- Cheer Song up to 25% hit
- Slow Dance up to 25% hit

ITEMS
- All Katanas deal PA*WP damage
- Bizen Boat changed(100% Silence)
- Muramasa changed(100% Faith)
- All Sticks up 2 WP
- Carpets now have 12 WP

[pokeytax]

Will Carpets (thanks, this is much less ambiguous than Cloth) get the auto-statuses working? Or are they already functional? I thought I tested them but I mighta screwed up. Will they be range 2, or is this just for abilities like Jump and Shuriken?

I don't think Sticks need more WP, but regardless Ivory Rod definitely does not need more WP.

Muramasa is too strong.

Grass Cross should use the Hell Ivy effect and do Earth healing with 25% Add: Regen. You typoed it, you can't untypo it.

Hawk's Eye and Bad Luck are crazy strong (guessing there's some ARH on the latter?). Quickening is also asking for trouble.

Rest looks good!

[FFMaster]

Carpets will be 2 range. And the loss of status was my fault.

Forgot to mention that Muramasa got WP nerfed to about 10.

Grand Cross... can't really be changed. I've tried everything, it's going to have to stay weapon element. Unless someone tells me what I did wrong.

Hawk's Eye and Bad Luck probably need an MP increase, yes. And it doesn't add all of them, it's 25% for each statii. Think of it as a single target Bad Breath. Quickening, yeah might be asking for trouble.

[CT5Holy]

Bad Luck and Quickening both seem quite strong. Hawk's Eye is 100% accuracy? I suppose that might be a bit powerful....

But yeah, everything else seems fine.

[FFMaster]

- All Elementals now cost 50 JP (if you buy all of them, its 600JP, removes 1 rule)
- Elemental Y increased back to 4

[pokeytax]

Think of it as a single target Bad Breath.

Yeah, exactly! As listed it's got a 70% chance of disabling the unit (Frog, Stop, Dead, Petrify) and a 55% chance of permanently disabling the unit (Frog, Dead, Petrify). Compare that to Blackmail, where you have to crank MA through the roof to have a 70% chance of inflicting Don't Act.

[LightningHax]

Alright, let's take a look here...

Fixed Yin Yang Magic bug in the memcard generator and a bunch of other text

Thanks.

- Paladin gains 1 Jump
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 25

Yeah, they needed that 1 Jump back. The extra MP is nice too.

Thief gains innate Awareness

   
Are you trying to obsolete Secret Fist?

All Sticks up 2 WP

Stick didn't really need that much of a buff, but good nonetheless.

Carpets now have 12 WP

Now Dancers have better weapons than Daggers !

[Squidgy]

Thief Awareness looks neat, but I wonder if Abandon Thieves will be too much. Thief + Gauche = 52% evade, but maybe that's a problem with Main Gauche. (It'd still be loved at 25%.)
Bad Luck has some sweet 2 vert, so it needs a "nerf"... I'm thinking add more status, to truly emphasize "bad luck": Poison, Slow, Don't Move, Chicken, Silence, Blindness... hell, just toss 'em all on. (Maybe even Protect, Shell, Haste? The AI might use it on allies though... lulz.)
Quickening... wow. Though Accumulate isn't doing much, so I doubt this would either. I foresee Iron Boots + Quickening + Shuriken + Hi-Ether... (That sounds hilarious! Don't change it 'till I can test it!)

Breaks are back! Yay. Now 2Swords has a use... I mean it did before with Arm Aim, and... Leg Aim... 2Swords, aside from archer skillset, nothing amazing. It's worse than 2Hands due to phys evasion being so prevalent. Only upside is double W-Ev and stats. (2H/2S books and harps? Maybe crossbows too? I bet this was already tried, and some problem arised... because it's too cool not to try.)

Any new ideas on Equip X? Movement slot didn't work, right?...
Grand Cross: I QQ about this skill so much. Elemental gimmick to the max.
Don't worry about Hawk Eye being so awesome LightningHax. Concentrate is so powerful because it transitions to special skills based on P-Ev. It'll make Execute obsolete unless you're using a dagger, but that's about it.

EDIT: Oh, Genji Shield having Santa Outfit stats bug! I miss my PA Shield with no absorb Ice so I get extra Saves...

[pokeytax]

I'm thinking add more status, to truly emphasize "bad luck": Poison, Slow, Don't Move, Chicken, Silence, Blindness... hell, just toss 'em all on. (Maybe even Protect, Shell, Haste? The AI might use it on allies though... lulz.)

Yeah, I was thinking this too... well, not toss everything on, that's insane, Squidgy you are insane (if we're using the 25% separate formula). But something like Add: Frog, Don't Move, Blind, Poison, Shell, Regen might not be totally broken. Could add a similarly-weighted Good Luck ability too?

I like Heretic, Faith and Innocent have always been fun statuses. Might think about boosting the Q for the Yin-Yang magic versions, although I don't know how interested the AI is in them.

[FFMaster]

Changed Muramasa, will do more later.
Bad luck now adds Dead, Darkness, Silence, Oil, Slow, Stop at 25% hit each.
Hawk's Eye now 6CT and 8 MP cost.

EDIT: The AI is only really interested in Innocent as a status. It sees Faith as a negative status.

[philsov]

- Thief gains innate Awareness

I thought innate reactions overwrote whatever is set as the reaction ability?  Is... that not the case for passive ones?

[The Damned]

Ah, damn it. I knew I forgot to do something over the weekend.

As always, what follow will be suggestions, despite the tone that might arise from the likelihood of me using the word "should" a lot. Apologies in advance.

Changelog
GENERAL
- Fixed Yin Yang Magic bug in the memcard generator and a bunch of other text
- Fixed Carpets

What was wrong with Carpets/Cloths?

JOBS
- Paladin gains 1 Jump
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 25
- Thief gains innate Awareness

I still say Paladin needs to lose a bit life, especially since they no incentive to use Robes/can get around that MP-limit and whore Grand Cross w/ Excalibur.

Also, with regards to Thief, what philsov said. Awareness will end up overriding any Reaction ability that anyone tries to equip unless we managed to find a way around it. Instead, please give Thieves Innate Maintenance, since you're at least bringing back Break Skills, though I think you should also bring back Steal skills too; you could probably stand to up their C-EV a bit too to compensate for Innate Awareness not working.

SKILLS
- Throw Stone now deals PA*8 damage, M-EV
- Grand Cross will now stay Weapon element, 12 MP, loses Add: Darkness
- Charge renamed to Snipe
- Greased Bolt now Add: Oil, Poison
- Hawk's Eye and equipment breaks added Archer skillset
- Thief loses all steals except for Steal Heart Steal Accessory
- Thief gains 4 new abilities
- Steal Accessory down to 300 JP
- All Elementals now cost 50 JP (if you buy all of them, its 600JP, removes 1 rule)
- Elemental Y increased back to 4
- Nightslayer renamed to Haku Korosu
- Shadowstrike renamed to Kagesougi
- Shinobi's Seal renamed to Doku no Kyoukai
- Cheer Song up to 25% hit
- Slow Dance up to 25% hit

• Throw Stone - This seems fine. Certainly better than anything I could think of with regards to it.
• Grand Cross - It should keep Darkness, especially since the Paladins abusing it will eventually hit themselves with Darkness; they should listened to advice about self-abuse. Similarly, Grand Cross needs to be Auto-ranged to Self since pretty much everyone that uses it while it's Holy/Weapon Element is just going to use it as an absorb strategy; no reason they should able to hit anyone with it who isn't immediately next to them. Similarly, might want to lower the vertical on it, but that's hardly a priority.
• Charge vs. Snipe - Yes, Snipe is a superior name.
• Greased Bolt change - This makes sense. I never liked the "Add: Chicken" aspect of it anyway.
• Hawk Eye - Yeah, this is just going to be whored without an MP cost since it's basically free Concentrate. Needs to be at least 10 MP. (Ah, I see you changed it already. Probably still could stand to be 10 MP, but we'll see how it does with 6CT and 8MP.)
• Break Skills - Probably need to have a lowered success rate between PA Save, Concentrate and the sheer range. That and still no one is going to use Maintenance even if they return, at least at Maintenance's current cost and self-defeating AI reactions. Otherwise fine and something I approve of.
• Loss of Actual Steal Techniques - I don't like this. At all. If anything, even with the inability to turn off physical counters from Steal (though you can at least turn of Counter Flood), Steal leaving outside of Steal Accessory just means that Maintenance is devalued even more. Additionally, Thieves become even less tested with the new skills they acquire...despite the fact that no one really has used them even after they gained the Ruin skills yet given Paladins and Monks' overpowering nature. I would say to bring back Steal, make it unable to be physically evaded and lower the JP cost for it a bit (yes, even Steal Weapon). It doesn't fix the problem of physical counters, but it at least allows Steal to still differ itself with Break skills coming back (on the class that has the most range in Arena no less).
• 4 New Steal Abilities - All of these except for Spellbreaker seem rather broken, if I may be blunt. Heretic screws over faith-based magic classes even more, especially for such a low MP cost and 100%. Quickening is just begging to be abused given it's 100% to hit, costs little MP and benefits pretty much every class; it also devalues the already weak faith-based magic classes even more. Bad Luck just seems out-of-place and broken, at least in its current iteration; even with the proposed second version of it, it still seems weird for Thieves to have. Definitely the one that worries me the least of the three, though, at least after the changes.
• Elemental Lowering Cost JP - Pretty ingenious and a lot more intuitive than before. Kudos for that.
• Elemental Y Back to 4 - Unsure about this. We'll see how it works.
• Ninja Name Changes to Japanese - Nice flavor-wise, otherwise doesn't change anything mechanically. Speaking of Nightslayer, it could also probably stand to be unavoidable; it seems pretty weird for people to able to dodge in their sleep, especially since it's not 100% death anyway.
• Song and Dance Speed-Affecting Abilities Go to 25% - Also unsure of these. I'm weary, but we'll see.

I still say something needs to be done about Shuriken, if only because of Speed Save, and Houkouton, which either needs to be able to be dodged or not hit three directions at once. (It'd probably be fine even with both losses.)

ITEMS
- All Katanas deal PA*WP damage
- Bizen Boat changed(100% Silence)
- Muramasa changed(100% Faith)
- All Sticks up 2 WP
- Carpets now have 12 WP

All of this is good, except for Sticks. (And, well, as long as you're just talking about the weapons themselves and not the Draw Outs, since making Bizen Boat 100% Silence would make it even weaker and Muramasa being 100% Faith would be...weird.)

If you increase ALL sticks by 2 WP, that just makes Ivory Rod even more powerful than all other Sticks. I would ask that you increase all Sticks by 2WP except for Ivory Rod and see how that works.

I'll try to see if I can think of any other suggestions.

[pokeytax]

What was wrong with Carpets/Cloths?

No autostatus (that's why Safety Dance/Petit Fours are running around with knives/swords).

Faith is bad. Not as bad as the last league makes it look! But 40 Faith is still too strong, IMO - it depends on how important you think Raise 2 & Haste are, the discussion has been had several times, I won't rehash it. I'm going to run a bunch of magic teams to try to convince myself it's fine as is, but in the meantime here's my suggestion:

Right now a 40 Faith unit takes 57% of the damage a 70 Faith unit takes. A 40 Brave unit takes 73% physical damage.
I propose we make minimum Faith 50, so a 50 Faith unit takes 71% magic damage - so it would be closer to the swing in damage from Fury. We might need to tone down the Q values on some spells, but I think it would be more balanced. I think this is better than minimum team Faith, because you aren't being bribed to make one unit a Time Mage/White Magic supportbot.

45 Faith would be a gentler step in the same direction.

[The Damned]

Ah, I believe you had mentioned the Cloth thing earlier.

And, yeah, I'm all for (slightly) upping Faith-requirements without forcing people to go back to minimum Faith requirements. Because, really, as it is, Draw Out and Geomancy/Elemental are pretty much the only magical things that get used (successfully) since physical teams have no reason to use anything but the lowest Faith possible, which then obviates like 10 other classes. The only reason to use a magical class for the last couple of updates has been rezzing for more health, really, and even that still has to compete with Item.

[FFMaster]

Instead, what if I lowered the Fury constant... to say 30?

I thought innate reactions overwrote whatever is set as the reaction ability?  Is... that not the case for passive ones?

Technically, you could make it a movement if you wanted. It's a "fake" reaction, done completely in ASM. It's similar to Weapon Guard and Abandon.

Ivory Rod back down to 9 WP.

EDIT: I personally don't see much power in Heretic and Quickening. Since people would be running minimum Faith for the Thieves anyway, it's not that huge. Quickening I see as a more powerful Accumulate, which no team has used very successfully. I'd probably increase MP to about 10 per cast though.

As for Robes, I'm thinking of increasing HP by 10 across the board.

EDIT2:
Bad Luck: 9 MP, 4CT
Quickening: 10 MP

EDIT3: Paladin and Monk HP multipliers swapped.

EDI4: Concentrate removed from the game.

[Squidgy]

If Conc gets the axe (which it should), I suggest revisiting weapon evasion stats. I foresee lots of Abandon/Awareness Gauche/Defender... and it would be annoying. Sunken State would make a fine Conc substitute for people who really want it.

EDIT: That gives me a sweet idea. "Setup" Add: Charging, to take out enemy evasion.

[CT5Holy]

Squidgy: I think we tried something like that before, and it slowed down the pace of the fight because the AI would stall trying to figure out what the unit was charging.

I think we can wait on tweaking W-Ev for now. However, I do think min. faith could go up to 45 or 50. The increased magic damage would slightly obviate the potentially insane P-Ev.

[The Damned]

Yeah, I think that, if anything, new W-EV come up in BETA 130. I agree with CT5 Holy, especially since I also concur that it would make boost faith-based magic (or, at least, Summon Magic and Element 4 spells given that anyone that uses Abandon is likely to use a Shield too).

Instead, what if I lowered the Fury constant... to say 30?

Nah. The Fury thing is confusing enough as it is IMO. I'd say just up Faith a bit to 45.

Technically, you could make it a movement if you wanted. It's a "fake" reaction, done completely in ASM. It's similar to Weapon Guard and Abandon.

Oh. That seems fine then. (I still say that Maintenance's JP needs to be lowered, but I don't want to keep harping on that like a Bard.)

Ivory Rod back down to 9 WP.

Thank you.

EDIT: I personally don't see much power in Heretic and Quickening. Since people would be running minimum Faith for the Thieves anyway, it's not that huge. Quickening I see as a more powerful Accumulate, which no team has used very successfully. I'd probably increase MP to about 10 per cast though.

No team used the Accumulate effectively because partially because Accumulate is the same skill set as Yell, which almost everyone who uses Basic Skill uses and the computer prioritizes over Accumulate (and anything else), and because, ultimately, one or two Accumulate don't make real difference if you aren't a Monk, who usually have non-Basic Skill Secondaries. Similarly, the computer only really using individually stat-boosting skills if they're not near enough to attack an opponent or help/buff an ally. I think we can agree, however, that even one or two more points in Speed would be potentially devastating, especially since some skills (*cough*Shuriken*cough*) go off Speed.

I suppose we can test it, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As for Robes, I'm thinking of increasing HP by 10 across the board.

Might as well.

EDIT3: Paladin and Monk HP multipliers swapped.

...I only brought this on myself (and everyone). Sigh. It makes sense, I suppose, though it just trades one evil out for another that was already extremely prominent.

Speaking of which, I've been thinking that maybe we should switch Ribbons or Purses back to being female-only, because with Steal Heart Unisex now, there's no real reason to use a female Monk. Not really a big deal; I'm merely saying, though.

EDI4: Concentrate removed from the game.

Ah, if I gave cared about Christmas, then this would be the closest thing to a gift that I'm getting this year.

Even though I think you should wait to overhaul the W-EV, you should probably up the JP for Abandon a bit to compensate for this. (Also, by "removed from the game", I'm assuming you mean "unable to be purchased" since Mimes still kind of need Concentrate.)

[pokeytax]

Instead, what if I lowered the Fury constant... to say 30?

My issue is the swing from 40 to 70 Faith, it's huge. It's hard to balance magic, especially % magic, because 70 Faith units get wasted and 40 Faith units can Regen through it. Lowering the Fury constant reduces physical damage by 20% and increases the Fury swing, but that buffs 40-40 Draw Out/Elemental/Ninjitsu cowards more than it buffs mages, which exist primarily to assassinate Raisebots.

But, Muramasa is a really big buff to attack magic - on a 40 Faith unit, Faith is like Magic Defense DOWN DOWN and sets up one-shot damage or one-shot status. Concentrate is a really big nerf to physical attacks, especially the ranged physical attacks that were replacing magic (Thrown Stones and Shurikens that hit harder than Flare, I'm talking to you). So we can see how it goes if you want.

Not looking forward to Abandon without Concentrate, as good a change as it is overall. Not really sure we need Abandon; Awareness is more balanced with innate Weapon Guard. Higher Robe HP is great, higher Monk HP is scary, overall pretty sizable changes, should be fun.

Ribbons/Bags/Perfume

Thought about this too. But I think the added flexibility is worthwhile, Monk is the only class it buffs. There wasn't much reason to use a female Monk previously, to be honest - and unless you remove sex differences entirely and make sex nothing but a Zodiac input, I can't see why there will ever be one. Female Monk is a mostly-dead class, like Male Wizard, but that's not really a huge deal.
The gender difference isn't hardcoded, though. I guess you could make males higher PA/MP and females HP/MA, so that there would be a case for each, or just bring them a bit closer together, or whatever else.

[philsov]

EDIT: That gives me a sweet idea. "Setup" Add: Charging, to take out enemy evasion.

Been tested previously to little acclaim.  In addition to the AI (likely) rarely using it, a unit that's been inflicted with charging takes a significant time to realize that it's not really charging anything.