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Argath.. What a terrible name.

Started by Beowulf cadmus, June 04, 2009, 04:58:37 pm

Beowulf cadmus

June 04, 2009, 04:58:37 pm Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Beowulf cadmus
Man I despise this guy. I'm sure I'm not the only one either. He's only good for one thing: taking the equipment from him at the very beginning of the game. He's not even threatening when hes a deathknight for cryin out loud. How are you not scary with a job like that. I suppose I should ask Argath. His name sucks to.

LastingDawn

June 04, 2009, 05:12:25 pm #1 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Argath, Argus, Algus, Argas, it goes on and on... in any case, 1.3 really gives the Deathknight what he deserves in terms of skills. Of course getting to him is 9/10 of the fun, heh...
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dominic NY18

June 04, 2009, 05:17:24 pm #2 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dominic NY18
^^^And I still haven't done that yet  :(

Beowulf cadmus

June 04, 2009, 05:21:28 pm #3 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Beowulf cadmus
Is 1.3 a patch? Ive heard of it but never seen a topic that elaborates on it.

LastingDawn

June 04, 2009, 05:22:15 pm #4 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Ah, there's a whole forum on this site about it, right below "Mercenaries" (shameless plug)
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Beowulf cadmus

June 04, 2009, 05:43:23 pm #5 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Beowulf cadmus
Do you mean in the vanilla ISO section? I looked there and it was talking about untouched ISO files. Thank you LastingDawn. Your quotation of Sun Tzu is beast.

LastingDawn

June 04, 2009, 05:46:45 pm #6 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Hmm, well best to copy a clean ISO as well to play any of our other patches. 1.3 is the most complete hack the site has to offer, except for a few scattered ones about, actually.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

DonalbaneBeoulve

June 08, 2009, 05:05:44 am #7 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by DonalbaneBeoulve
Quote from: "Beowulf cadmus"Argath.. What a terrible name.

Title says it, Algus was a much better name for him. It hurts to see how much they butchered the names and terms for the WOTL version :(

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 09:52:45 am #8 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
In my translation exercises with FFT I've found no reason to interpret the katakana as anything other than 'Algus' or maybe 'Argus'.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Dominic NY18

June 08, 2009, 10:17:21 am #9 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dominic NY18
Vanya, you give far too much weight to literal translations. I'm not talking about in this instance, but in general.

As for TWOTL butchering names, the originals aren't exactly great names either. They probably should have left Golagros alone though.

Donalbane, what terms are you referring to in you post?

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 10:51:27 am #10 Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 06:52:58 pm by Vanya
Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Vanya, you give far too much weight to literal translations.

It's not about literal translation for me, but rather about the interpretation of the original intention of the writers. 80% of the time a more precise translation with good interpretation of the intention of the creators is better than an aesthetic localization.

Argath Thadalfas <- Arugasu Sadarufasu  -> Algus Sadalfus
Tietra Heiral <- Tīta Hairaru -> Tita Heiral
Ludovich Baert <- Bāto Rūdovihhi -> Barto Ludovicci
Alphonse Delacroix <- Arufonsu Dorakurowa -> Alphonse D'LaCroix
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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LastingDawn

June 08, 2009, 04:37:57 pm #11 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Actually I think I read in a fan made (at least I think it's fanmade?) they translated Rudvich as Lugwig, which I thought is an interesting idea. In essence though the name Tietra brings to light "Tetra" which is a large part of the underlying symbolism in the game's story. Well, at least I think so.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dominic NY18

June 08, 2009, 05:33:25 pm #12 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dominic NY18
Quote from: "Vanya"It's not about literal translation for me, but rather about the interpretation of the original intention of the writers. 80% of the time a more precise translation with good interpretation of the intention of the creators is better than an aesthetic localization.

Argath Thadalfas -> Arugasu Sadarufasu  -> Algus Sadalfus
Tietra Heiral -> Tīta Hairaru -> Tita Heiral
Ludovich Baert -> Bāto Rūdovihhi -> Barto Ludovicci
Alphonse Delacroix -> Arufonsu Dorakurowa -> Alphonse D'LaCroix
Are you saying that WOTL's translation of names and terms was a purely aesthetic one? And what do you define a "precise" translation as?

As for the what the writer's intentions are, you assume that your translations are closest to what the writer intended. Well, that's how your remarks sound to me anyway.

Quote from: "LastingDawn"Actually I think I read in a fan made (at least I think it's fanmade?) they translated Rudvich as Lugwig, which I thought is an interesting idea. In essence though the name Tietra brings to light "Tetra" which is a large part of the underlying symbolism in the game's story. Well, at least I think so.
Can you go in-depth about this?

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 06:50:43 pm #13 Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 07:16:54 pm by Vanya
Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Are you saying that WOTL's translation of names and terms was a purely aesthetic one? And what do you define a "precise" translation as?


I wouldn't say that the WotL localizer's/xlater's work was as narrow as being purely aesthetic, but they were definitely most concerned with making the names more European sounding. Now, I believe that that was the original intent of the designers, I just think with more time and a bit more research they could have done a much better job. Quite a few of the names are clearly intended to be Italian, French or Spanish, but aren't treated thoroughly enough in my opinion. On the other end of the spectrum they also got carried away with Europe-izing names that didn't need it like Tietra as opposed to Tita (ティータ) which is a perfectly good Spanish name. (BTW, it is the feminine form of the Latin name Titus.)

Quote from: "Dominic NY18"As for the what the writer's intentions are, you assume that your translations are closest to what the writer intended. Well, that's how your remarks sound to me anyway.

I know this is going to sound arrogant, but... I do. I'm not saying I can see into their heads better, some shit is just obvious when you have a broad knowledge base. And what I mean by that is that I know about more than just Japanese and English.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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LastingDawn

June 08, 2009, 06:59:13 pm #14 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Well, I was wrong about the meaning of the word after (about 15 or so minutes of searching...) I found that it means Land, nothing to deal with Tetra, or anything as such. That in itself is an interesting meaning but... in any case.

The original meaning I had meant to portray was something Voldemort said along time ago, which in the end does make the game have a much more poetic sense to it. At the start there are three squires...

One dies standing up for his beliefs, another falls in the line of sibling duty, and the last falls at the hands of his beloved (WoTL really does show that Delita somewhat cared about Ovelia.)

In this respect from the moment Algus died, the other two fates were sealed. There was a reason they were all called "Squires" at that time. From that time on they were merely playing the roles assigned to them.

When Algus takes his stand against the party and kills Teitra the rest of the plot is put in motion. Algus in this way plays the main catalyst, along with Tietra. Algus turns Delita into a manipulative man who believes "the end justifies the means". Algus turns Ramza into a scared boy who tries to escape it all by becoming a mercenary and disconnecting himself. Ramza's name means "sign" or "symbol", a relatively rare Muslim name these days. Another theory I read puts Ramza as "Lamb The" in a way showing his final fate as one being lead, and perhaps a sacrificial lamb, but I'm not too fond of that theory (sort of breaks the point of the name Ramza meaning "symbol")

Ramza's eventual fate is hinted at a few times throughout the games story. First and foremost is the explanation of Mosfungus, which (according to the Chemist) means the grave with Mosfungus on it will see the end of their family line. That is the first sign that it might not be a happy ending.

 Secondly is the added scene from WoTL, Agrias makes it clear to Ovelia that she Will return to her, no matter what the cost, it can be argued that they didn't add anything to change the ending because they couldn't but I beg to differ, making a check to see who was still in your party at the end really couldn't have been that difficult by that point. As they had done so numerous times in the PSP version and even in the PSX version. What happens? Ovelia still succumbs to maddening grief, accusing Delita of Ramza's death which he in turn stabs her (I believe the reason he stabbed her back was because he didn't want to believe he caused Ramza's death, but more on that for another time). Agrias never coming back shows that they did not survive, as Agrias would have returned to her leige lord no matter what the cost.

The third and most famous case that they didn't survive is Rofel's "Welcome to Murond" speech, he explains there is no way out and the game makes a true Note of this. It is one of the only games I've ever played that will not let you leave the final dungeon. It really drives home the "there's no way out..." feeling, it's a feeling of despair, that there is truly No Way Out of Murond. That's the final nail in the coffin in my book, Murond is described as being buried far under the sea. And by that explosion,  I think there's no way that any of them made it out alive. FFT is an incredibly dark game with slight bits of foreshadowing that really doesn't hit until you look at it in retrospect. As such if Ramza dies so must Delita die, as would be the poetical end of the three squires. Of course as it stands the theory is really in pieces, and I'd like to try to refine it, but eh... not currently. Just an idea I like to throw around. Though I was Completely wrong on Tietra having to do anything with the word "Tetra" Though does it...?

Let's look at the siblings names... Delita and Tietra... remove the "i" from both of them and you get Tetra and Delta, both words meaning "three". Just something to think over and hah, this post came out quite incoherent, eh heh...
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 07:14:24 pm #15 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
I hate to poke holes in a theory as poetic as this, but while I agree that delta is symbolic of a triangle, tetra is a fish and tetr- is a combining form meaning 4 not 3. Also, delta has many more connotations that symbolize 4 than 3. Perhaps there is a fourth element that can be added to this? Still, it may be what the localization team was going for.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
¯\(°_0)/¯

LastingDawn

June 08, 2009, 07:42:22 pm #16 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Well, I guess if there would be a fourth element it would be Alma if anything, this would keep it in accord with the "Wish" symbolism shared between the four (Alma, Tietra, Delita, Ramza). I listened to an hour and thirty minute podcast on FFT's music and may I say it was pretty inspiring, I had no idea that Alma's theme made it's way into so much music in the game. Only thing very wrong with Alma's inclusion is she breaks the pattern, the three Squires are, without contest Ramza, Delita, and Algus, as such any other inclusion would screw up that precious balance. If Alma were added in as a decision, that would instead create another different "4", if we go by the music Ramza and Alma's theme compliment one very well and they both make it into a surprising amount of music in the game. As such Delita and Ovelia's theme play off one another as well, except like Ramza's Theme, Delita's is much more melancholy, compared to Alma and Ovelia's "initial" themes. You only hear the original Ovelia's Theme once or twice in the game, other then that you hear variations of it. Though I still think the original three squires fit this best, because (Tietra lacks her own theme) if it instead meant the four Wish holders it would be Ramza, Alma, Delita, Tietra/Ovelia. I've read a theory that Delita tricked himself into feeling for Ovelia because he saw her as a fine replacement to Tietra. But that says a lot of poor things about Delita which I don't think fully fit him.

Delta does ordinarily mean "difference" in Greek, but Delta's symbol , Δ is the character used in their math equations (honestly most of that math goes right over my head) Tetra on the other hand often means four but it goes hand in hand when describing a pyramid, which most people see as a "triangle", though it's apparently a tetrahydron or something like that. Adding in the girls is interesting, but it really doesn't help the theory.


Oh yes also a link to that grand podcast..

http://intothescore.blueandbrownbooks.c ... a-ivalice/

An interesting lesson in music and explains a bit of the more underlying themes in the music (why Alma, though only having a few scenes is symbolized by her theme making it into many songs, making her feel all the more important)
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dominic NY18

June 08, 2009, 10:20:09 pm #17 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dominic NY18
Quote from: "Vanya"I wouldn't say that the WotL localizer's/xlater's work was as narrow as being purely aesthetic, but they were definitely most concerned with making the names more European sounding. Now, I believe that that was the original intent of the designers, I just think with more time and a bit more research they could have done a much better job. Quite a few of the names are clearly intended to be Italian, French or Spanish, but aren't treated thoroughly enough in my opinion. On the other end of the spectrum they also got carried away with Europe-izing names that didn't need it like Tietra as opposed to Tita (ティータ) which is a perfectly good Spanish name. (BTW, it is the feminine form of the Latin name Titus.)
Tita? Seriously?

Look, I realize that may be a perfectly good translation and a perfectly good Spanish name. But do you honestly think that would be a good name for a character in a game aimed at English speakers?

"Butz" is apparently a "correct" translation for "Battsu", but I definitely see why the localizers for the English versions of FFV decided to go with "Bartz."

QuoteI know this is going to sound arrogant, but... I do. I'm not saying I can see into their heads better, some shit is just obvious when you have a broad knowledge base. And what I mean by that is that I know about more than just Japanese and English.
But simply possessing a broad knowledge base (whatever that means) + knowledge of English and Japanese doesn't equal knowing what they intended.

I think you probably missed my other question, but what exactly do you mean by a "precise" translation?

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 11:16:49 pm #18 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Tita? Seriously?

Yes. It is a perfectly fine name and it is what the kana sound out in the original game.
I don't see any good reason to have changed it to Tietra.
I understand choosing something different than Teta, which is tit in Spanish, but I don't see any reason not to use Tita.

Quote from: "Dominic NY18"Look, I realize that may be a perfectly good translation and a perfectly good Spanish name. But do you honestly think that would be a good name for a character in a game aimed at English speakers?

Why not? In FF6 Terra was originally Tina. From what I remember they chose Tina because it would sound a bit exotic to the Japanese audience.
Ted Woolsey chose to change it to Terra because Tina wouldn't sound as exotic to an American audience. Maybe it was a similar situation with Tita/Tietra, but I can hardly call Tita a common name.

Quote from: "Dominic NY18""Butz" is apparently a "correct" translation for "Battsu", but I definitely see why the localizers for the English versions of FFV decided to go with "Bartz."

Actually, if they were intending the Battsu to be a German name like his surname, Klauser, then "Bartz is the correct translation.
Japanese a = ah as in watt, not like uh as in what.
The translator that chose Butz had an iD10T error.


Quote from: "Dominic NY18"But simply possessing a broad knowledge base (whatever that means) + knowledge of English and Japanese doesn't equal knowing what they intended.

It means I know a bit about Spanish, Italian, German, and French. I've studied them all at least a little. Also, I know quite a bit about the fantasy/sci-fi media that Final Fantasy draws much of its content from.
That broad knowledge base makes it easy for me to often recognize what the kana are getting at even when the word is mangled in Japanese.

Quote from: "Dominic NY18"I think you probably missed my other question, but what exactly do you mean by a "precise" translation?

Yeah, I did. Sorry. That's probably not the word I should have used. What I mean is a translation that takes probable intent, technical accuracy, possible source, and localization into consideration. Of course a translation that is more "precise" would take much longer than the average localization time most games get & is of course subjective to the translator doing the work. =P

Does that make any sense?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
¯\(°_0)/¯

Vanya

June 08, 2009, 11:27:56 pm #19 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
Quote from: "LastingDawn"Well, I guess if there would be a fourth element...

What if you looked at it from a zodiac perspective?
What if it is a dichotomy between a 3 and a 4?
Think about how the compatibilities work on the zodiac wheel.
You know... the signs on a triangle have good compatibility and the ones on a square have bad. Could that be a part of it?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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