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Job & Skill Proposals/Idea Thread

Started by Vanya, November 21, 2009, 11:35:58 am

SilvasRuin

December 01, 2009, 02:16:16 am #80 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
Breath attacks are at least as recurring as Lancet.

The two panel attack would be something to make spears do, not give as a free ability.  I can't imagine how that attack would be able to be restricted to spears only and have the right appearance.  Unless it was restricted to spears, it just wouldn't make sense.  FF spear users tend to not be able to strike two enemies at once with spears anyways.  This is FFT, not Tactics Ogre.

jimmyjw88

December 01, 2009, 02:17:00 am #81 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
Yeah, Jump animation can easily be mimic. I did that with Earth Slash (jump up and struck down making the ground shakes). Problem is charging up in the air. I think it would require ASM hacking to make the Jump, a skill, with charge in the air.

EDIT: I don't think striking two enemies at once like Holy Explosion or Earth Slash is a good idea. It doesn't really make sense to be able to poke/pierce the person behind the target.
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SilvasRuin

December 01, 2009, 01:55:36 pm #82 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
You can already strike someone that is behind another person with a spear in FFT, I think.  What he seems to want is striking both of them though.  In real life, what it is now is like reaching around them to hit the person behind, and striking both in real life would consist of stabbing all the way through the first person, striking the second, then pulling the spear back through the first person without losing grip on it from the first person recoiling, moving, or otherwise countering.  It is rather unfeasible...

Zaen

December 01, 2009, 04:55:13 pm #83 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Zaen
That's why I used breath instead of piercing of some sort. Sure, it's not recurring, but it's a possibility. I was basically trying to make 2 possible classes WITHOUT ASM. ASM is a pain to do, with so few able to do it, and practically none that will do any ASM that someone requests.

Breaths are just simple to do, and are pretty much in game already to the extent that would be needed. And I really wish it were possible to make Jump function like it does, and still only take up a skill slot instead of a whole skillset.
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MiKeMiTchi

December 01, 2009, 05:25:18 pm #84 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by MiKeMiTchi
past topic:

QuoteSeems a bit too all over the place. Where would it's niche be?
If anything it sounds like a 'you've-mastered-all-the-other-jobs-now-this-is-your-reward' kind of deal.

Quotebut.. aren't the skills too overpowered? start a battle with protect & shell, haste & transparent & float, then reraise Laughing can heal, a lot of attacking skills...

Oh sorry. First, in what I'm planning, you will only get one skill at start, which is Culling Blade.
To get the other elemental skills, you must get a "cosmos" from the elemental bosses. :)

My patch would be like a Megaman RPG type of gameplay using FFT, with the starting job having a piece
of skill with each element, and the other jobs pure elemental (eg. Fire Job, Holy Job).. with stronger skills..
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Vanya

December 01, 2009, 07:12:33 pm #85 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
No need to apologize, it's all good. I just want to make the jobs here more generic so they don't rely on a specific set-up like what you seem to have in your patch.

The whole "Lancer" thing sounds more like a "Defender" or "Guardian". I would prefer the Dragoon to stay more true to the series.
I like the idea of a tank job with mostly defensive abilities. The only problem with those types of jobs is making skills that are defensive, but don't rely on decidedly magical status effects like protect and shell. Many of the more interesting ideas are unfortunately going to have to rely on some form of ASM hacking I fear.

Now as for the Dragoon (I prefer Dragon Knight personally) there are three flavors that come to mind. The first the the classic FF3/5 style with Jump and Lancet as their main offensive abilities. Then you have the FF9 style Dragon Hunter type. And last the FFT/XI style Dragoon that has support for dragon type units.

Do we have any more ideas for the Defender type job? The FFTA/A2 Temple Knight strike me as that sort of unit.
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SilvasRuin

December 01, 2009, 09:53:42 pm #86 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
I think the FFTA and FFTA2 dragoons have a healthy mix of all three of those types, and it happens to be the one I favor.

Defender
Cover is pretty dang hard to do, but it can at least be emulated to some small extent by simply making an ability that places an ally in the Defend status.
Hibernate should be easily doable.
Things like Rasp and Soul Sphere sounds more like a mage slayer than a defender...
Wish is perfect as-is for a Defender type, IMO.

Wasabi

December 01, 2009, 10:19:10 pm #87 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Wasabi
Seems like I missed quite a discussion. :?

SilvasRuin

December 01, 2009, 11:04:04 pm #88 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
In FFIII, Dragoons could equip Shields along with their Spears.  I believe Kain could in IV too.
Speaking of which, Kain could equip spears, axes, and I think some swords.  I'm wanting to think Spears were the most effective weapon type for Jumping, but I could be wrong.

A "Defender" type job really should be mixed into Paladin.  There just isn't room for having multiple support melee fighters of the protection nature.

Oh, and if one removes the break abilities from FFT's Knight, Paladin/Defender would be a prime candidate for Disarm (break weapon).

Wasabi

December 01, 2009, 11:24:59 pm #89 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Wasabi
Quote from: "SilvasRuin"In FFIII, Dragoons could equip Shields along with their Spears.  I believe Kain could in IV too.
Speaking of which, Kain could equip spears, axes, and I think some swords.  I'm wanting to think Spears were the most effective weapon type for Jumping, but I could be wrong.

In most localizations of Lancers/Dragoons in Final Fantasy, spear-wielders can also equip shields with their spears. I'm just saying if spears get a boost in their WP or have an added effect in their place, a forced 2 Hands could be an application to balance them out. Of course, I'm also in league of wanting axes to be 1H/2H (not 2 swordable) and without the random damage formula, so you might see my logic as being somewhat out of bounds. :P

Kain could equip light swords, but not Knightswords in IV. And I believe Jump got a boost with spears in IV as well.

Quote from: "SilvasRuin"Oh, and if one removes the break abilities from FFT's Knight, Paladin/Defender would be a prime candidate for Disarm (break weapon).

This. Especially in FFT 1.3 and their other adaptations when broken equipment are returned to the Fur Shop for a cost. A simple textual change with Tactext.

And I also believe having Defender separate from Paladin sounds a bit silly, considering they both do the same thing with the exception of one being more defensive while the other is more curative/offensive.

jimmyjw88

December 02, 2009, 12:46:14 am #90 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
Quote from: "Vanya"Now as for the Dragoon (I prefer Dragon Knight personally)
Yay!!! Dragon Knight ^^
I prefer Dragon Knight too, which is the name for my personal patch.  Hehe.
Alright, so, for Dragoon/Lancer/Dragon Knight, I'm not sure how the other FFs work but I personally prefer FFIX. I feel that Freya's skills actually fit nicely as Generic Dragon Knight; of course not her entire skills but the concept of it.

As for Defender, I agreed that they are the same as Paladin or maybe Crusader. They should be tanker, slow (due to heavy armor), healing skills, support skills, and minor offensive skills. And yes, they should be the next inheritance for Breaking Techniques.
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SilvasRuin

December 02, 2009, 01:09:10 am #91 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by SilvasRuin
Dragoon is the traditional name, so might as well leave it at that and then let the people using the resources choose a different name if they so want.  Has the name Dragon Knight even been used in the series?  (There's also the whole bit where the word Knight is entirely overused in job names...)

Since there are some Dragoons that have ALL the mentioned abilities, they might as well just have one entry describing how to set all those abilities up and then let the individual patchers decide which ones they want to ultimately go with.  It's not like Dragoons tend to have drastic differences throughout the series.

Hm... don't have any more input for Defenders/Paladins yet at the moment, but I'm inclined to discuss Berserkers/Breakers next.  They're an interesting job, but there is at least one obvious issue in making them.  (What to do about Berserk.)

Skip Sandwich

December 02, 2009, 01:43:15 am #92 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
the initial berserk bug is troubling, but what if instead they had innate Silence, and a single skill that inflicted berserk status? You'd have to retool silence to block every skill EXCEPT this self berserking skill, but that'd be one way of going about it. Another way would be both innate berserk and initial sleep or don't act or confusion or something. If a class has an initial status, does equipping something that prevents that status still prevent it?
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SilvasRuin

December 02, 2009, 02:32:49 am #93 Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 02:55:18 am by SilvasRuin
Except for clones of White Magic spells, this seems to be the best list of (tank and support based) abilities for a Paladin/Defender:
Astra - Prevent negative status effects, easily done through clever manipulation of the Wall status in the patcher.
Nurse - Small hp heal and cancel some of the more common statuses.
Defend - Might as well just give that to them as an innate ability rather than putting a clone of it in their skill list.
Guard - Put the Defend status on an ally.  Simple enough.  ASM hacks might actually be able to emulate Cover though...
Disarm - Break weapon.
Wish - It just seems to fit with the concept/purpose.
Aura - FFTA Defenders had it give self-regen and reraise.  How about just self-regen?
Hibernate - Full heal but puts them to sleep.  It would probably see more use in FFT than FFTA, though you can't actually cancel all the bad status and inflict sleep at the same time, so it would be less potent.
Shock - Somewhat recurring ability for Paladins, when they don't have Holy attacks that is.  Basically just a powerful physical attack.

If one really wants to give them White Magic, one could make a lesser Esuna (typically called Basuna, right?), and some single target healing spells.  Call them the Heal series for simplicity and just go the opposite route for naming than what is traditional.




As for Berserkers/Breakers, I'm not too keen on giving them auto-Berserk.  I'd prefer to give them an ability that gives it and make it optional.  The problem is that auto-berserk would allow you to design the job stats to facilitate it, but you can't do that if it is optional.  At the same time... the player is going to do better than the AI, so a permanently berserked character won't likely be desirable.  Perhaps give Berserk a duration might help a little by allowing the player to get control of the character again after a time if things don't work out.  Getting to the enemy and making use of the heightened damage is one problem...
Can Berserk be ASM hacked to maybe increase movement or speed a bit just while a character is under the status?  That could help, and it fits in with what other games have done for it.  Stacking Haste onto the ability and giving them the same duration would at least make sure that they aren't berserked without some advantage assisting them in getting to the enemy.  Main thing I would think would work (after making it work by duration) is ASM hacking a formula to set their CT to 100 and give them Haste and Berserk at the same time.  That would allow a player to trigger it at the very moment the Berserker gets within range of the enemy.

Orlandu

December 02, 2009, 02:35:36 am #94 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Orlandu
@skipsandwich

i believe no.

well, the only thing i've tried is using cursed ring together with ribbon, and the zombie status is still there.
i believe same thing will happen with stone gun. i guess prevent only works for future status change.

about berserker.. rather than thinking so hard to give berserk status, why not just give him(or her?) innate attack up and blind?

jimmyjw88

December 02, 2009, 02:52:58 am #95 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by jimmyjw88
I like what Silvas have there for Defender. I think those fit just right. As for Berserker, permanent berserk is definitely a no. Giving them duration is good and haste with berserk is good combination of trigger as they went wild, which increase they're speed and attacks.
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Wasabi

December 02, 2009, 03:50:52 am #96 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Wasabi
Paladin/Defender - everything works great except for Hibernate. Never really used that skill imho and I feel something better could be used for it in its stead. Maybe a weak Holy attack spell with an AOE? (<---Sort of inspired from Cecil in his Paladin form in Dissidia, with his "Searchlight" attack.)

Berserker: Valid point about innate Blind and Attack Up. An ability should be crafted to make the Berserk status a self-targeting ability. In my personal patch, I edited Ramza's Scream/Shout ability to be an auto self-targeting Berserk/Protect/Atheist status ability. Maybe for the Berserker an ability crafted as self-targeting Berserk/Protect/Haste could be implemented, something like 'Mad Rush' from FFVIII which was one of the abilities the Guardian Force Ifrit had in his disposal. Whether or not the Atheist status should be implemented is up for judgment.

In terms of its stats, I feel that they should have low/moderate HP to accentuate their low defense (which FFT has no real statistic for; traditionally Berserkers have high HP), extremely high attack power, moderate to high speed and evade, and pitifully low MP, MA and Magic Defense.

As for their abilities, a couple can be extracted from the Berserker class from FFX-2 (wikia page elaborating on their abilities). They have a skill that depletes the enemy's HP down by half, one that deals high attack damage but has low accuracy and a couple of status attacks. I bet something can be made from this list, and much more.

Also, if someone can elaborate on what the berserk bug is by any chance, please elaborate on it as I'm unaware that there was a bug in the first place.

Skip Sandwich

December 02, 2009, 11:29:26 am #97 Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:53:08 am by Skip Sandwich
the berserk bug is that a unit with either innate or initial berserk status can still take a single user controlled action at the beginning of battle, instead of having an action forced by the AI.

:EDIT:
it also seems that most people are against innate berserk status, with that in mind, how about these for some skill ideas?

Rage- Self + berserk/haste/protect (haste and protect wear off over time, berserk does not, so timing is key in using this ability effectively)

Wild Blow - Deals PA * 15 damage, take 1/3 damage as backlash, range 1, area 1v1, does not hit caster.

Cleave - deals 50% max hp damage to target, weapon range

Heave Ho - deals PA * 30 damage, take 1/5 damage as backlash, range 3, area 1v255, random fire, unevadable, choco meteor effect (deals huge damage, but only has a 20% chance of hitting any given square with it's single shot, does not discriminate between friend and foe, and deals backlash damage regardless of if you actually hit anything)
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"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
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philsov

December 02, 2009, 11:34:54 am #98 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
I don't think it's that bad, really.  Hurts the flavor a bit, but the execution is probably the best possible.  Seems better than having an activated berserk ability, though.  

The biggest problem is that a unit with Berserk has no reaction ability and is immune to move hp up.  In FF5 this was a non issue, but in FFT that's a wild liability.  A follow-through suggestion is to give them an exclusive weapon type (axes?) that have the drain life effect.  That, or made wildly monsterous in terms of HP/PA so they're rarely targetted and hit like trucks to compensate.
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Vanya

December 02, 2009, 12:02:12 pm #99 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Vanya
Added:
Dragoon
Paladin
Defender
Berserker
Warrior

I see a lot of good ideas. I believe FFX-2 has some good source material for Berserker. I'm all for a berserk skill instead of innate berserk or anything like that. The girls in FFX-2 have such a skill.

I definitely see defenders getting the equipment breaking skills and Knights having the stat breaks as in most every other iteration of them in the series after FFT. BTW, I'm keeping Defender separate from Paladin because I can think of a bunch of skills that are more suited to them, plus I never saw them having any kind of healing at all.

Paladins are pretty straight forward IMO. They are pretty much the same throughout the series with the exception of Agrias and her overpowered sword skills. I liked the FFTA/A2 version as well. And, of course, everyone is correct about the Cover skill. It WILL require some sort of ASM, but forcing defend is a decent temp for it.

I'm throwing Warrior into the mix because there are tons of combat skills throughout the series that can be adapted to a Warrior job very nicely. Some of them can be found in FFTA/A2 in the form of the Hume Soldier & Bangaa Warrior. Beside, the "Apprentice Warrior" (a.k.a. Squire) leaves much to be desire and most of the skills they have are better suited to other jobs.

Alchemist, I see two options for this one. 1) A replacement for Chemist that also gets some offensive items. 2) My personal concept is something along the lines of a mage that can forge raw magic into more or less the same items as the chemist. The main problem is getting them a custom formula so they can adjust the z value used in the item formulas. Probably something as simple as a formula that sets X or Y to Z and then carries on with the normal item formula would be ideal. Otherwise they will only be able to emulate basic Potions and nothing else. The second issue would be in emulating an ether. It would be forced to use the same value as Potion because of the lack of Z manipulation within non-item skills. However, as a neat little thing one could set the MP cost for conjuring Ether to exactly 4x the amount that it restores making it an excellent support skill when you're in a pinch. I recommend applying the ASM hack for limited item usage during battles to make the Alchemist more useful.

Necromancer, I can think of a bunch of cool skills that could be conjured for these guys. The only game in the entire series that has one of these as a playable job is FFV. In that game they are like a weird summoner derivative that specializes in summoning the undead and demons. Some summons can easily be made by manipulating the Oracle's spell graphics, but more intriguing id the idea of having the make and mess with undead units. I haven't tried it, but in theory one could make a dead unit become undead and then raise that unit as an undead. It would probably be advantageous for the necromancer to also apply charm along with undead. There are lots of possibilities.
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