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Scryer Job Discussion (New Format on Front Page!)

Started by LastingDawn, November 16, 2008, 02:24:41 pm

Skip Sandwich

December 03, 2008, 01:30:05 am #40 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
I belive you mean that anything WITHOUT X or Y values will work, since like weapons, items have no X or Y value slots to edit.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

boomkick

December 03, 2008, 01:37:03 am #41 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by boomkick
Runologist

Dormin Jake

December 03, 2008, 02:45:31 am #42 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dormin Jake
Runebreaker!  Runic!  Runemaster!  Shatterer!  Spellbreaker!  Sigil Tracer!  Symbologist!  Enchanter!  ...Disenchanter!  Arcanist!  Artificer!  Tinker!

Runescaper!   (lol)

Several ways you can go with it, using different flavors of items, obviously the above isn't even close to an exhaustive list.  Runebreakers through Arcanists would probably use magical items, runes, magical symbols, that sort of thing, while Artificers and Tinkers could have mechanical devices which produce effects when used.  Runescapers would use items with intentionally awful graphics.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.
  • Discord username: dorminjake

dwib

December 03, 2008, 06:55:20 am #43 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by dwib
archealogist!

GZGoten

December 03, 2008, 10:35:16 am #44 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by GZGoten
Why not just lower the amount of items you can carry instead of having 99 Phoenix Downs limit it down to 10 or 20. Or if possible make it so you have to choose 5 or 10 items to take into the battle.
Make the Chemist the only character that can use Phoenix Downs, Elixirs, and other high powered items making Chemist a more useful character, while also making other characters rely on magic for HP and Raise when a Chemist is not present.

Another thing that you could do is make it so that Chemist can use Throw like Ninjas and give them a wide variety of spells through items, but make it so that the higher powered spell items can only be obtained through steal, catch, or from random treasures. NOT BUYABLE!

The Damned

December 03, 2008, 12:39:56 pm #45 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"I belive you mean that anything WITHOUT X or Y values will work, since like weapons, items have no X or Y value slots to edit.

I'm pretty sure that for the sake of Item slots that we can't change at the moment Z = X.

I may be wrong on this one since I've been trying to get rid of Items completely, not test them out at this point. (Although I may have to since that class is pissing me off.)

Quote from: "GZGoten"Make the Chemist the only character that can use Phoenix Downs, Elixirs, and other high powered items making Chemist a more useful character, while also making other characters rely on magic for HP and Raise when a Chemist is not present.

You can't do that in a job class game, at least for generics.

Even if you could, that would be speaking to how much more powerful that class is over others, which I'm sure is part of the reason LastingDawn wants to get rid of Chemist in the first place--I know it is for me.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Skip Sandwich

December 03, 2008, 03:23:51 pm #46 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
nope, Z is a completly different variable, I know, I've tried it before.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

LastingDawn

December 03, 2008, 10:31:20 pm #47 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Did I say of that which works with X or Y...? Well I must have been quite tired, in any case here are all of the formula that work with Weapons, so I think the same applies to items...

(Stolen from Zodiac's thread)

Quote1   Dmg       [Weapon]
02   Dmg       [Weapon] 25% cast given spell
03   Dmg       [WP * WP] 100%?
04   {If Elemental Fire: Fire Spells/Elemental Ice: Ice spells, Elemental Thunder: Thunder spells}
05   Dmg       [Weapon]
06   AbsrbHP   [Weapon]
07   Heal      [Weapon] 100%
11   Success   [100%]
1E   Dmg       [MA * MA / 2] 100%
1F   Dmg       [CFM * TFM * [MA * MA / 2] 100%
24   Dmg       [PA / 2 * MA] 100%
2D   Dmg       [PA * WP]
2F   AbsrbMP   [PA * WP]
30   AbsrbHP   [PA * WP]
31   Dmg       [PA * PA / 2]
32   Dmg       [PA + PA / 2]
37   Dmg       [PA]    Knockback 50%?
3E   Dmg       [Target_CurrentHP - 1] 100%
43   Dmg       (Caster_MaxHP - Caster_CurrentHP) 100%
44   Dmg       (Target_CurrentMP) 100%
45   Dmg       (Target_MaxHP - Target_CurrentHP) 100%
4A   HealHP    [100%]   HealMP [100%] 100%
4B   Heal      [1..9] 100% if unit is dead; 0% instead *not sure if you'll be able to target the dead.
57   Success   [100%]   +1 level
58   Success   [MA]   Turns target into Moldball
59   Success   [MA]   -1 level
5D   Success   [100%]   0% If not dragon   Add: Quick?? *Dragon LevelUp*
5E   Dmg       [MA * MA / 2]
5F   Dmg       [MA * MA / 2]
60   Dmg       [MA * MA / 2]
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Skip Sandwich

December 04, 2008, 05:07:32 am #48 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
It should be noted that while formula that reference WP do work with items, they always take the WP from the user's equiped weapon, and not that of the item. I haven't tested what happens when the user is not wielding a weapon though.
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

LastingDawn

December 04, 2008, 01:31:19 pm #49 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Probably 0% if I were to guess. Though this in terms gives weapons with decent WP but poor formulas a use, though not sure if I should cling to that...
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Raven

December 16, 2008, 03:58:39 pm #50 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Raven
Would it be possible to make items require a charge time and have no inventory requirement?
Instead of having a stock of items make it so the chemist has to create them before use, which is what the charge would be for.
If it is possible to items more or less potent based on how many job levels are in chemist it could potentially balance items out.
That plus adding damaging items could make chemist a good class.

DarkOmega

December 24, 2008, 09:35:26 pm #51 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by DarkOmega
An idea to insert, if I may? I like the premise of attacking with items; throwing fire balls and lightning balls with a chemist always seemed more...logical to me anyway, than a ninja. Ninja's should only throw weapons. >.> And shurikens.

Anywho, running with that idea, why not make the chemist class into a Necromancer of types? Now, hear me out before you classify me as off my rocker. What if you allow him to "mix" or "create" concoctions that require a charge time on the field, and use an item, which when thrown at an enemy, gives effects? Such as status', damage, and maybe even a chance at knockback for some of them? Aoe anyone?

As for necromancy and *raising the dead*, which is where this thread started, that ties in beautifully. Make phoenix downs rare, like a rare poach, or even better, a War Trophy (until late game when they're *expensive* to buy, or a DD battle which is really hard gives out as a War Trophy when you win). This way, you don't have mass spamming of phoenix down's, but it's still useful. Of course you'd want to check mechanics like whether you'd want it to charge at all or for a while, MP costs, and what amount of life they would be rez'd at.

That also allows for a darker class, which I feel mercenaries is aiming for, anyway. And it may allow for some of the weird weapons you guys have been thinking up. ;) Just throwing it out there, in case you guys like it.
Geomancy is ridiculous. Instantaneous ranged attacks that just stomp all over the hopes and dreams of the villains. I love it.

The Damned

December 25, 2008, 12:12:22 am #52 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Hmmm...I forgot about this thread. The name of the class finally gives me an idea considering Monk....

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"It should be noted that while formula that reference WP do work with items, they always take the WP from the user's equiped weapon, and not that of the item. I haven't tested what happens when the user is not wielding a weapon though.

Sorry about not responding to this when I found out a week ago by playing around with my Gambler; as aforementioned, I had completely forgotten about this thread.

Anyway, WP is counted 0 apparently (which makes sense) and thus the formula goes to 0. It will still "hit", but it will cause 0 damage in and of itself.

Quote from: "DarkOmega"*Good ideas in print*

Unfortunately, IIRC, Charge times and AOE won't work for our current restrictions with Item. They will always be instant and have an Effect Area of 0 in FFTPatcher/1 in-game (for now).

Trust me, this game's system currently hates Necromancers who actually try to re-animate the (un)dead.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

DarkOmega

December 25, 2008, 07:08:17 am #53 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by DarkOmega
Aww man...lame. Well, I was reading the other threads, and realized that this has been brought up before; I apologize for not doing my research before blabbering off. Lol. On a happier note....MERRY CHRISTMAS! :D
Geomancy is ridiculous. Instantaneous ranged attacks that just stomp all over the hopes and dreams of the villains. I love it.

The Damned

December 25, 2008, 11:10:47 pm #54 Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 12:22:57 am by The Damned
Okay, so the idea I initially got with regards to this job class ended up not really panning out because I remembered that you still have Oracle around; thus, this class shouldn't be the status giving class or at least the negative status giving class. (I did, though, actually get a lot of inspiration for Time Mage, so I will try and share that with you when the time comes.)

Besides that, I was then just going to have them be the only class with all eight elements...until I remembered that you already have Invoker doing that.

So, I was kind of left with a hodgepodge of ideas inspired by Saga Frontier (which I've played), some Dungeon and Dragon (which I've looked up) and previous items (some of the lesser ones that I've kept because I don't think I can make enough new ones without infringing on other territory):

  • Ether needs to stay since there's currently no other way of regaining MP, especially since Chakra is probably going to be cut from Monk. It could even see it increasing from 20 MP to 30 MP, though that's the most. (Hi-Ether shouldn't be coming back, though.) Rename it "Mind Rune" if you keep the Rune motif.
  • Potion also staying is pretty harmless since it's going to get outpaced rather quickly but it would still remain a decent healing option to save someone from a deathblow you couldn't otherwise stop. Might want to increase this to 50 HP or something. (Hi-Potion and X-Potion similarly shouldn't be coming back.) Similarly, rename this "Body Rune" to contrast the above.
  • Weapon Rune: I'm trying to decide which the lesser evil to use is: the basic weapon formula or the gun formula? Either way, the physical classes (outside of Monk) will be doing more damage with this attack than the magical classes, but the gun formula probably raises too fast and too far. Still, Weapon Rune would end up outpacing Attack in a lot of places concerning it would be 100% accurate. Sigh.
  • Vitality Rune: This would add Regen to one person at 100%.
  • Hide Rune: Due to the fact that Transparent doesn't work for the AI and I think another class of yours has a skill that gives Transparent to others anyway, this Rune differs from its Saga Frontier counterpart. It forces Defending and Don't Move on the target at 100%.
  • Freedom Rune: This would cancel Petrify, Don't Act and Sleep. That's it, though.
  • Wall Rune: Well, Wall would be perfect for this...if it would work. At the moment, it just casts the standard (former White Magic) Wall of Protect and Shell on one target at 100%.
  • Insanity Rune: This adds Confusion at 100%.
  • Holy Water also needs to stay. Just rename it "Holy Rune". After these seven, the other five probably shouldn't be able to be bought in shops, though Vitality Rune and Weapon Rune might need to end up also not being bought in shops.
  • Dwarf Rune: Similar to Hide Rune, this has to be changed greatly, but more for a formula-based reason. Instead it would cause basically be an instant Mute to one target, cutting their MP to nothing.
  • Soul Rune: This probably the best buffer that they (and possibly anyone else) is going to be getting since it's one shot deal: It would add Regen, Haste, Protect, Shell, Berserk, Faith, Reraise and Death Sentence. Yeah....
  • Stasis Rune: This would Stop one person at 100% rate.
  • Pain Rune: This would double the pain of whoever it hits, basically using the TargetMaxHP - TargetCurHP formula.
  • Death Rune: Ah, so now we come to the new Elixir, except that it causes Death to everything and anything it touches (that isn't a boss or Immortal). I actually consider this to be weaker than Elixir considering Phoenix Down was basically a mass produced version of this and pretty much all major characters will doubtless be Death-immune. Similarly, unlike Phoenix Down/Elixir destroying (you as an) Undead, there will probably still be a few items that Cancel Dead and thus block this entirely.


Funny how a lot of these ended up still being status based.

...Dammit.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

December 26, 2008, 12:11:03 am #55 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Regardless these are Fantastic ideas! I really like them, also it works to give a bit of the old White Mage to the Runic/Rune Mage/Scryer/Rune User/etc. A lot of those are really unique, but until we fix Death Sentence... I can't see us making that one work yet.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

The Damned

December 26, 2008, 12:20:26 am #56 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Damn, I'm stupid.

How did I forget about the Death Sentence thing?

Ugh.

Let's see...maybe if you changed Soul Rune to Reraise, Undead, Haste, Berserk, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Faith or something like that. Soul Rune was massively useful in Saga Frontier since it doubled stats basically, but you can't really do that here.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Skip Sandwich

December 26, 2008, 02:14:49 am #57 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Skip Sandwich
I'm pretty sure reraise and undead status cancel each other, much like slow and haste
"Dave?  Are you there?"
"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
http://www.johndiesattheend.com

The Damned

December 26, 2008, 03:40:31 am #58 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Reraise can't stack on top of Undead, but they certainly don't cancel each other out.

Otherwise you wouldn't be able to make Undead Crystal/Treasure 100% of the time by inflicting Undead on things with Reraise, which effectively negates Undead revival for some reason, and then killing them.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

January 03, 2009, 10:18:19 pm #59 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Well actually, the Weapon Rune idea, I don't like a lot... it breaks the purpose for the "Magic" of the Rune Class. So I will be altering that to Monster Runes, which deals a 100% separate status to Monsters and Monsters only, of course this will change the Dragoon's purpose, to affect all monsters with their Dragon Skill. Would that be an acceptable thing?
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!