Final Fantasy VII Project

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I'm in total agreement with Raven's last statement. The final question is whether this idea would actually be fun. A lot of the fun factor for FFT comes from customizability. If you have all the original characters then you get some variety in what characters you use. Then you get some variability in who you give what materia, but otherwise it seems that abilities will be pretty consistent and linear.

Well, we're miming FFVII, so we can be dicks and only allow 3 units per battle.  Since you get 8-9 party members maximum, this gives you some replayability by virtue of how you beat each fight.  Since the proposed Materia System doesn't actually change the FFT system any... you can also allow for inviting of Vanilla Generics if you wanted, who'll function fine.  If we do something simple like flag all the Materia "Bangles" as Armlets, then only allow the FFVII-crew to equip them, there won't be any weirdness of a Knight with Black Magic secondary and some Cure Materia... unless you want that to be allowed, of course.  The Job System could even be left in-tact - just set all the FFVII-bros to Job Level 0 when they join, and make Chemist require Squire Level 1, and only the FFT-verse characters will be able to access the Job Wheel.

Yes, your customization is going to be a bit limited (your FFVII-bros only customizable through Materia, Reactions, Supports, Movements, and Equipment), but I don't imagine this is meant to be more than a 10-15 battle patch, and we can easily fluff the customization a bit with things like Vanilla Recruitment, like I mentioned before. 

Remember too, their weapons also held Materia... so if we gave the player access to multiple weapons for each character, that'd give each character a "Primary" through their weapon that can be switched, a unique Limit secondary, and an equippable Material Tertiary, plus Reactions, Supports, and Movements learnable in-class, plus standard Equipment.  Should be plenty of customization then.

[Cheetah]

Story Approach: People are throwing around a lot of decent ideas about incorporating the FFVII-crew into the overall FFT story, but I just have a hard time getting behind this idea. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really tired of playing through the standard, or even slightly altered progression of FFT. Even a simple story with few events becomes very difficult when it comes to reordering progression (something no patch has done yet) but I think it ultimately greatly ups the fun factor. So here is my current proposal after listening to everyone's thoughts.

Start at Besradio's with Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII. Have the primary story center around collecting a certain number of powerful materia, some materia was actually already in the story and has story graphics. Now the hard part, have branches paths that the player can choose from in order to explore the majority of the map. This will introduce a new mechanic that FFT can already handle so that the player can choose which order to approach battles in and what order to gain the additional characters. Along the way additional usable equipable materia equipment would be found to add to the players arsenal. There could be as many or as few as events as we could produce because the basic goal is consistent. Obviously I would like to see some good character events and some throw backs to FFVII, but they wouldn't be necessary to playing the game. Everything would end with an obligatory epic battle with Sephiroth. You could have perhaps have some late game secret characters that used the traditional FFT Job wheel, but otherwise I think the game should really focus on these characters and only using them in this patch. I think Raven's materia idea needs some refinement, but it is definitely going to be the core of character customization.

[Joseph Strife]

Story Approach: People are throwing around a lot of decent ideas about incorporating the FFVII-crew into the overall FFT story, but I just have a hard time getting behind this idea. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm really tired of playing through the standard, or even slightly altered progression of FFT. Even a simple story with few events becomes very difficult when it comes to reordering progression (something no patch has done yet) but I think it ultimately greatly ups the fun factor. So here is my current proposal after listening to everyone's thoughts.

Start at Besradio's with Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII. Have the primary story center around collecting a certain number of powerful materia, some materia was actually already in the story and has story graphics. Now the hard part, have branches paths that the player can choose from in order to explore the majority of the map. This will introduce a new mechanic that FFT can already handle so that the player can choose which order to approach battles in and what order to gain the additional characters. Along the way additional usable equipable materia equipment would be found to add to the players arsenal. There could be as many or as few as events as we could produce because the basic goal is consistent. Obviously I would like to see some good character events and some throw backs to FFVII, but they wouldn't be necessary to playing the game. Everything would end with an obligatory epic battle with Sephiroth. You could have perhaps have some late game secret characters that used the traditional FFT Job wheel, but otherwise I think the game should really focus on these characters and only using them in this patch. I think Raven's materia idea needs some refinement, but it is definitely going to be the core of character customization.

After this i think there is no more to do besides get to work on it.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Even a simple story with few events becomes very difficult when it comes to reordering progression (something no patch has done yet) but I think it ultimately greatly ups the fun factor.

Still working on this, in the middle of recoding the GUI ATTACK.OUT Editor in Open Office so I can finish it.  That'll make patches like this far easier to make when done.

Start at Besradio's with Cloud, Aerith, Tifa, Barret, and Red XIII. Have the primary story center around collecting a certain number of powerful materia, some materia was actually already in the story and has story graphics.

Minus Aerith, at least initially.  My reasoning is that the best time for the FFVII characters to be vulnerable to FFT's Time Machine is in Mideel when the Mako Stream is raising hell, sending Cloud into fits, etc.   You could have it initially pull in (a fairly mentally damaged) Cloud and Tifa, with the Cid party appearing later, having followed them through the Mako Stream and apparating elsewhere through plot convenience.  (For example, maybe the use of the Time Machine's has created a rip in the dimensional fabric, making crossing over and the appearance of other FFVII characters in places outside of Besrodio's house easy as long as they can access what sent them across on their side of the void.  This one's a personal favorite of mine and one I intend to use as a sidequest hook for Redesign and as the primary justification for Special Power Rangers Edition - it's a simple and easily justified idea with infinite possibilities that does 0 damage to the actual FFT canon.)  This would also explain how the player "finds" more Materia-based accessories and weapons despite being in Ivalice - they're things that fell through the void when Mideel was destroyed and other such things.

This also lets us abuse Flower Girl Aeris in FFT a bit - have her meet our mentally damaged Cloud and his caretaker Tifa at some point after they've acquired the White Materia item and inherit the memories and abilities of FFVII-Aeris through its plot-power.  This gives us a plot device we can use to heal the "damaged" Cloud, allows us to have Aeris in the game without messing with FFVII-canon (she merely can't return to the FFVII-verse for some simple plot reason like her Ivalician body can't be sent back across the Time Machine's rift because it's never actually been in contact with any Mako before, which could be one of the requirements for use of the Time Machine), and gives us a simple and believable plot to run with - Tifa needs to "fix" Cloud while in Ivalice instead of in the Mako Stream, while gathering up the Ivalician Materia to return home.  This also gives us plenty of branching path hooks - ones that allow us to meet or not meet up with certain FFVII characters, gain FFT Generics or Specials of sorts as party members, etc.  I don't think there's much more to be asked for since it gives us enough plot to fill either a small or a large patch and justifications for basically anything we introduce from FFVII-land, which I think is most important to our basic story draft - it's adaptable to anything we actually do while fitting snugly in both games' original canons.

You could have perhaps have some late game secret characters that used the traditional FFT Job wheel, but otherwise I think the game should really focus on these characters and only using them in this patch.

It probably should, I'm just noting that by using this system, nothing forces us to deny anything from the original FFT-verse because the gear slots are still Weapon/Shield/Head/Armor/Accessory, the Weapon Types are the same, etc.  This is why all my ideas are trying to be things that fit well in both games' canons, and my mechanics are trying to adapt FFVII to FFT instead of FFT to FFVII - I'd rather have something that works for "FFVII bros only" but can be switched to "FFVII and FFT mixed" without affecting the gameplay.  Again like the plot, the mechanic system should (personally) allow everything to work and allow us to do as much or as little as we want with both the FFVII and FFT aspects of the game.  I push for these things a lot, but I see no reason to design ourselves into a corner by not making sure everything can easily be fit in should we change our minds later, or want to make a follow-up patch that involves more FFT or something without changing the mechanics, etc.  Tl;dr I'm trying to make sure everything will work in our long term as well as our short term with as few changes as possible.

Once my computer screen is fixed I'd be willing to handle some of the mechanic related stuff, like fitting in the FFVII-skills in, re-organizing equipment so we can set up starting Inventories properly, figuring out what to cut and what to keep from FFT to fit our FFVII stuff, etc.  I'd also be willing to do basic re-balancing, but considering we're going for "FFVII bros thrown into FFT" and have full control over what players can access anyway, I think we should leave everything originally from FFT as Vanilla as we can just to emphasize things, meaning changes to things already in the game should only be basic things like removing Steal Weapon / Weapon Break so the FFVII-bros don't get their Buster Swords broken and possibly a flat Speed growth with some adjusted CTRs, etc.

I'm glad that Materia system seems to be rather well received.  It's an expanded version of one of the drafts on how I may be handling Cloud in Redesign that I was unsure on, but it seemed perfect for this project whether I go with it there or not.  Definitely needs refining, though, like Cheetah said.

[Pickle Girl Fanboy]

You need Gilgamesh.

[Joseph Strife]

So, can this be considered a project in development? Who will be leading it, it seems the comunity has recieved the idea with great enthusiasm. A section of this in the Works in progress should be created once we have who will be leadind the project and the story decided. BTW, i agree with everything Raven said. Let's get to work on it people.

[GeneralStrife]

You are all running into another mercs/remix. Joseph, It ain't that simple. Me and the other members have seen many patches with loaaads of time and talent wasted crumble due to overset goals.  I WANNA BIG PATCH ALIKE ZOMGUHDHERZXF!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you are as talented/determined as koko and have loads of time its too much. Like RoR said, If we can get some special ASM and just change some of the story we might have something.

[Joseph Strife]

Sorry again then people, as new to the comunity as i am i should've asked before jumpping to conclusions. I hope we can get this up and running soon.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Like RoR said, If we can get some special ASM and just change some of the story we might have something.

We don't need any special ASM, everything I've described in terms of game mechanics is already doable with the tools we have.  We already have a hefty pile of good FFVII sprites thanks to Twinees as well.  The main issue is getting someone who wants to actually edit Events.  While I have the skill to do it, I need to opt out because I have plenty of other things I'm working on.  Like I said, I can do the mechanics side of things if Cheetah wants once I have a new screen and clear one or two things out of my to do list because that's far easier in terms of time and effort, but still obviously important.

[GeneralStrife]

Yeah, finding someone willing to spend loads of time on events will be one of if not the main parts of this.

[Joseph Strife]

too bad koko is focusing on CoP, we can't have him to do this, we need another one.

[pokeytax]

FFVII isn't even my cup of tea, but I will get behind any project that has more than one community member working on it, wholeheartedly. Release it on April Fool's Day: "Square Enix Overcomes Insurmountable Graphical Hurdles, Remakes FFVII For PSX".

I don't like Raven's ideas because I neeeeed character customization and want an AP system. I think I can hack one, but let's be clear: you can't compare a system Raven proposed primarily because it's scalable and interoperable and doable with current tools with "a system Pokey thought would be cool but hasn't tried making or debugged". It's piqued my interest so I might try to do a prototype but for now it is still vaporware.

I'd be tempted to go the other way, force two permaguests and have a party of seven, but that is quite strict on enemy sprites (two) so maybe not.

Vincent and Cait Sith will have underwhelming Limit Breaks, but I don't see any other huge roadblocks.

An event editor is needed. A person, and a tool. Maybe I should suck it up and do a robust event editor. This community really needs a robust event editor, probably more than any other tool, and definitely more than me adding WP/evasion/better previews to ALMA, as much as it irks me to have it unfinished.

[Pride]

FFVII isn't even my cup of tea, but I will get behind any project that has more than one community member working on it, wholeheartedly.

This completely. I haven't even completed FFVII, I work six days a week, I'm working on my own patch, working on Pokemon stuff, and I have my wife... but I'll put my own patch/pokemon aside and work on events. I won't plan them or do the dialog, I will only create them based on if someone will write the script for them. I know how to work the world map and how tie events together through the world map (wldcore.bin), attack.out, and test.evt with doing the event conditionals. If Pokeytax is willing to write that event editor then it would make it even easier... I know Xif was also writing one but I don't know its progress or how close it is to even being completed.

[The Damned]

(+1 for someone who doesn't really care about FFVII, hasn't even completed it and usually roll his eyes when someone mentions it yet can get behind this.)

I'd be willing to event edit stuff since I have more free time than probably anyone here currently. It's just, as with coding, that I need to learn how to do it first and having a suboptimal computer isn't exactly helping this (on top of other many other things). Still, I'm "around" and have to learn how to event edit for Embargo eventually anyway, so....

Outside of that, I pretty agree with everything that RavenofRazgriz has said thus far, including not resurrecting FFVII's Aerith but having her "possess" FFT's Aerith. It'd make it even easier to show up how screwed-in the head Cloud got at times.

I can't really say that I agree with bringing Sephiroth into this, though. Altima/Ultima doesn't need to play a big part, but some else can play the role of final boss if there even needs to be one) because, seriously, fuck that guy.

Vincent and Cait Sith will have underwhelming Limit Breaks, but I don't see any other huge roadblocks.

They always had rather underwhelming Limit Breaks, so it's not exactly like they're losing much.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I don't like Raven's ideas because I neeeeed character customization and want an AP system. I think I can hack one, but let's be clear: you can't compare a system Raven proposed primarily because it's scalable and interoperable and doable with current tools with "a system Pokey thought would be cool but hasn't tried making or debugged". It's piqued my interest so I might try to do a prototype but for now it is still vaporware.

The main reason I didn't propose this isn't the hacking, but rather the fact this means that we give up any real use of the old FFT mechanics by doing it.  Like I mentioned before - I'd rather be able to make use of both a fairly FFVII-reminiscent system and the FFT system instead of just one, especially since this is "FFVII in Ivalice" and doing it this way allows us to better demonstrate the differences in how their universes work.

If you really wanted to pursue this route, you could make JP into AP, then use some of the empty Item Bits to track AP gain on Materia and the Materia's Level, then modify ARH to read this "Materia Level" Byte alongside the Item ID to unlock skills from a skillset added to the unit by the Item via ALMA.  I'm not feeling this route though, particularly, since if you go with the story I described most of the FFVII-verse characters are already sporting decently-farmed Materia, and if we make things too much pure-FFVII there'd be little reason not to just mod FFVII instead.  The game should still be distinctly FFT, but the FFVII-characters' mechanics should be heavily warped because they're from a different plane of existence, or a different time, or whatever.

[Cheetah]

I would definitely stick with a standard party of 5 in battle. Not 3 not 7, the maps and standard movement abilities are built to accommodate this number, and messing with it too much interferes with the flow of combat I find.

I like that your idea stays in cannon so well, but it seems a bit too complicated. Can you imagine the dialog sequence of trying to explain all that? Often just having an easily understandable starting point and moving from there is good enough.

I am all for a better event editor, and more importantly a tool that makes actually linking the different pieces of attack.out, world.bin, and test.evt able to flow together. I have spent a lot of time just trying to get a few events to play in a new sequence. This is a tool that would benefit a lot of projects, not just this one. I believe there is some aspects of this kind of stuff that we don't even fully understand because no one has really tried to do something with it.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You don't need to really "tell" everything, Cheetah.  Work on what you're expecting the player to already know.  Have Tifa maybe mention something to Ramza about "We were in this town called Mideel... Cloud was sick and I was watching him... then... something attacked Mideel... a Mako stream erupted from under the town, and now we're here."  Combine with a cutscene the first time you "find" an Item from FFVII - make it be something you can buy from Mideel, and have Tifa merely mention "Isn't this something the merchants were selling in Mideel?  Did it fall through the Mako Stream as well?"  etc.

Most things can be implied.  The "we need Materia!" doesn't even need to be mentioned explicitly - they can just find one, then hypothesize that finding more may help them reverse the Time Machine.  Don't explain it all at once and imply chunks based on knowledge the player should have from having played both FFVII and FFT, maybe using offhanded comments to fill in blanks for the few people who'd play this without having played FFVII.  Them's how the best stories are written anyway.

Did you get those Events working, by the way?  I have some ideas for an Event Editor Spreadsheet that should be simple enough to make but easy to use, but I need to learn how to do some stuff first.  The main issue will be that it'll probably not be the best for editing an existing event, since I doubt I can make it load the Notepad without being highly complex, but for making fresh events it should do damn well, and that's the place we need an Editor most, when large swaths of the Events are custom-made.

[Argy]

Pokeytax, In terms of event editing, wasn't fft707 working on a new event editor? I assume his project has stalled. Is there anyway we could use his ideas to help create a new one, that is if it was any good. Judging from the feedback, it really does sound like it was on it's way. Just a thought. Here is the link, ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5323.40

[GeneralStrife]

Who knows, only way to find out is to traipse in enemy territory.

[Eternal]

No need for Easyvent, apparently. This new tool Raven/Pokey are coming up with supposedly alters the code itself in-game or something.