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[Old] FFT Plus 1.02 upcoming changes

Started by Dome, June 01, 2012, 12:45:58 pm

Dome

I think that the general consensus about boss battles is that stacking too many innates is a no-go, and giving them a little better gear/some extra level is the way to go

So, we move to the next point of discussion: The new script
As you may (Or may not) know, Neophyte Ronin is working on a new script, which will better translate the game from the japanese version without being shitty/boring/whatever like the WOTL version
In the process, he is probably going to change some special character's name as well
Refer to the post above to see about what I'm talking about

P.s: Thanks for the fix FDC

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

RavenOfRazgriz

Someone's name being Redi doesn't automatically mean the intent was a red pun, you know. f you know anything about how the Japanese language works, you'd know that the Japanese lack certain sounds that we have in English (such as the letter L) and will substitute other sounds for them, which can result in wonky translations if the translator chooses to interpret those sounds in certain ways.  For example, L sounds in English are replaced by the R sound in Japanese.  Thus, Redi = Ledi = Lede = Lettie is a fairly believable and logical progression for the name.  I actually hate the name Lettie, but your logic on it being a Red/Blue joke is incredibly faulty, especially considering Celia's is nothing close to any form of the color blue.  You mention Cerulean, which you could stretch to being Ceria and in turn Celia, but you're grasping some serious straws when you consider they could've chosen much better and more obvious names to match "REDI" if they wanted color puns.

Also, you can't have spoilers with apostrophes in them, Ronin.

Dome

I have no knowledge in japanese & other stuff, but the whole Red/Blue thing made me lol hard IRL, I think it's nice
After all, the assassins are just powerful killing tools with no personality, and having their names related to their clothes makes sense (IMHO)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Stretch

Seria sounds too much like Syria, which isn't a nice thing to be reminded of nowadays.

Izlude to Tristan? If you aren't giving him a symbolic name, why choose one that's bland and modern? What about giving Izlude a name that pairs with Mellian.

Wiegraf sounds germanic and strong; Wiglif sounds like a tele-tubbie. Not every case of japanese r/l swapping is bad.
Yeah, right

Dome

I don't care about the Seria/Syria parallel, but I have to agree with the other things Stretch said

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Neophyte Ronin

I'm open to suggestions about what Izlude's name could be, but that was what I got out of research: the better half of a romantic epic.  Unless Izlude/Isilud alludes to something of Arabic origin, I considered changing it to that.  Besides, I was going to write it as though Izlude/Isilud/Isolde is but a pet name, and that his real name is rarely spoken, enough so that his pet name is what appears as his unit name.  If that avenue is frowned upon for any reason, I'll just abstain from taking liberties.

Wiegraf/Wiglaf, on the other hand, I really struggle with.  The name is derived from the Beowulf myth, naturally, and he happens to be the guy's right-hand and successor.  Incidentally, Beoulve is a French variation of the name Beowulf.  If you believe that Wiegraf sounds stronger, I'll respect the notion.  It might have to come to some votes, however; at least fifteen cast before I finalize anything.  I always have the option of calling him Folles, his last name, and it would make sense since he and Ramza become adversarial to begin with.  He could also have the honorific of Master Folles, since he is a White Knight.

I'm surprised there is a point of contention about the assassin ladies but little else.  I'm never quite sure unless I get a thumbs-up or thumbs-down.  I got nothing about the script excerpt I had produced, and nobody confirmed anything about the {0xf4} thing, either.  Still, I got thumbs-down for the reasoning behind changing the girls' names.  I could leave them nameless and have onlookers identify them by their outfits instead.  What do you think they'll call them then?

Seriously, look them up:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Celia
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Lettie

I stood there with my mouth gaping open at the sheer simplicity, the obviousness of it all.  Looking at the basic descriptions and the resulting romanji, I was pretty much sold by the idea.  Then again, Raven probably studies Japanese in his spare time and that he's far more learned in the field than either me or everyone who edits the site in question.  If there are a few dozen people who are somehow wrong in calling their outfits by specific colors, and then me looking at the romanji and suddenly thinking there is a connection, who are somehow utterly wrong in jumping to conclusions, then by all means....

It just caught me as a non-coincidence, that's all.  I don't believe in coincidences.  I might not stand by my position forever, but I do think that the names Lede and Lettie suck bad enough to change to Liedel, or something appropriately exotic.  Seria, on the other hand, is almost phonetically similar to the word cerulean, a shade of indigo, or blue (you know, sapphire), and isn't supposed to remind people of Syria the country.  To even invoke such an association is to invite controversy, though I don't really care if that happens to begin with.  Remember: Seria happens to be the romanji.  Why would invoking Syria be such a bad thing, Stretch?  Syria has had its dark moments of late, but you can't group all of them together beneath those moments' shadows, can you?

As for the names, I'm now betting on Sapphira and either Rouge or Liedel; the prior two happen to be actual words, they roll off the tongue, and they could pass as names while reflecting their outfits.  Again, in the same vein as Wiegraf's plight, we can settle with a vote.  Please note that sugnuf (who authored the translation of which I'm taking cues from) also called him Wiglaf.  It might not be the harshest-sounding name, but if we are taking names from mythology and famous authors, epics, and works of military ethics as the original authors had, then it is the more appropriate term in that context at least.

While we're trying to figure out if we like the changes proposed thus far, are there preferences for names or names we wish to change?  Let me hear them before I delve too far into this, okay?  It pays to plan.  Also, I'd like feedback about that excerpt, around the lines of if you think they're feasible.

Post-Script: Thanks FDC; didn't know apostrophes made for bugged spoilers....

RavenOfRazgriz

I don't study Japanese, but I speak in Engrish with quite a few people who are Japanese-primary speakers, so I know a lot of how their sound nuances are because it often comes out in how they type as well, including them often using r's instead of l's when they type, etc.  I could always find someone who does study some shit who could give better insight, but... effort. 

Another thing to remember is that when the Japanese make puns, they're usually fairly forward about them.  If "Redi" were meant to relate directly to the color red, Celia's name would directly reflect the color blue instead of an obscure offshoot like Cerulean, especially considering this was made with Japanese-primary speakers in mind who may not even know the word Cerulean. Unless Seria/Celia has some translation I'm missing that's more directly related to the color blue, I'd not buy it though.  I did just brute-force the name through Google Translate though to check, and it only comes up with Seria, Ceria, and Celia as options.  It's not that the Red/Blue dynamic doesn't make sense or wouldn't be reasonable, this one just isn't set up in the way most Japanese puns are.

Stretch

I like the Wiegraf into Folles idea.

Puns are a bad idea for the assassins, it trivializes their encounters by making them seem less serious. Celia and Lede are fine names, they sound like Ivalice hooker names, which makes sense since they're hanging around Elmdor all the time. He has to have a political excuse for them while still playing the part of a politician.

How about naming Izlude, Wilhelm? In honor of this: http://youtu.be/cdbYsoEasio :)
Yeah, right

The Damned

(I'm not sure how much help I'll be here when it comes to names considering I haven't decided on them myself yet for the most part. This is partly because of stuff like this and partly because of the constant awareness that people, myself included, are never 100% content with anything and also other things. However....)

If I may say so, in the case of the minor characters, I'm not sure this needs that much thinking about. Unless you're going to try to flesh out Celia, Lede and/or Izlude like I am (going to try to), then what they're named isn't overly important as long it's not terrible, silly or terribly silly. Hell, presumably in Plus Izlude still only appears in one battle before he gets killed by Vormav/Hashmal. So writing essays about this doesn't seem all that productive. [/hypocrisy]

That said, this still does merit thinking about, so I applaud you for not being lazy about this and doing research as well.

Having studied Japanese a bit myself a while ago, Raven's right in that it's quite unlikely to have been an intentional pun on the part of the Japanese. "Reddy" doesn't seem like something they'd do (here), especially when they (read: Squaresoft) know Rouge exists and they already showed their willness to do color puns in Saga Frontier with it between Rouge & Blue being "brothers". I especially think it's not a pun just because I always saw Lede's dress as more brown than red really.

You (and Dome) can totally do a color theme/"pun" if you want, though. Personally don't believe that a "punny name" will make the Assassins less threatening as long as it's not something completely off the wall.

Admittedly, I've always been kinda partial to gemstone names for women, so Sapphira is a name I would welcome even though it's very little like Celia. Additionally, if you want to still do a color theme, then Ruby is a gem that exists and still gets the color point across; it also works because due to the whole "birthstone" thing being some of parallel to Zodiac stuff. (it also works because seemingly everyone on this forum likes Pokemon.) Ruby being rather different from "Redei/Redi" wouldn't matter for the same Sapphira/Celia reason. I mean, both Assassins are rather flat characters and it's not like people wouldn't know who they are if you changed their names to that degree as long as you kept their sprites exactly the same.

Shrug. It's ultimately up to you.

I'm rather ambivalent to most other changes thus far and can respect the other ones you made given the reasons you gave (that I haven't had time to look into). Izlude and Wiegraf are definitely two of the bigger pains in the ass, though I'd argue that only Wiegraf is actually important.

Quote from: Stretch on August 06, 2012, 01:57:54 amHow about naming Izlude, Wilhelm? In honor of this: http://youtu.be/cdbYsoEasio :)


...I don't even have to click on this to know it's the Wilhelm Scream.

Ugh. Can we let that stupid meme die already? Hollywood already abuses it way too much; we don't need it popping up anywhere else. (I do not mean to take this out on you, Stretch, since you're obviously not Hollywood.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

LastingDawn

I'm confused? Why is there any discussion on Celia's name? Celia is a Real name that's fallen out of favor in recent years but it has its roots in the real world. Meaning "Heaven", "Musical" or "Blind".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celia_(given_name)

Lede is a Lot more complicated with nearly every European language using it in some fashion or another and never as a name. The only one that possibly fits is another name for Satan, (in the same vein as the meaning of Lucavi (Rukavi) being Deceiver in Russian) which kind of makes sense as they are Ultima Demons.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lede

"den lede c
the evil one, the loathsome or disgusting one; the devil, Satan"

I never liked the name Lettie, it just did not sound right to me.


The problem with the Isolde/Izlude relation is that Isolde is a woman. Isolde and Tristam. In reality it's a name that would have better fit Meliadoul. Since it's a very famous story I would almost be certain that Isolde has her own method of pronunciation in Japanese that differs from Izlude or else such a cultured translator like Joseph Reeder would have picked up on it.

However there was one place where he Really screwed up. The name Golagros relates back to Arthurian legend and had no business being changed to Gragoroth, who bears no relation to his FFT Counterpart, but the fact remains that Golagros was not an incorrect name.

"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dome

Neophyte Ronin, I forgot to mention it last time:
After the battle where you have to save Mustadio, he says something about Magic guns
Since magic guns are no more, please remove that line. Thanks :-)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

RavenOfRazgriz

You don't really need to remove that.  Guns are lost technology and that line helps bridge the magic/technology issue in FFT.

...In FFT+, you just happen not to find this specific bit of lost technology is all.

Dome

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on August 07, 2012, 04:31:47 pm
You don't really need to remove that.  Guns are lost technology and that line helps bridge the magic/technology issue in FFT.

...In FFT+, you just happen not to find this specific bit of lost technology is all.

...makes sense
Neophyte Ronin, nevermind what I said. That line stays

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Neophyte Ronin

The line stays because you can acquire magi-guns and magic machine guns after specific propositions.  They cannot be used in-game, but I allude to why that is in the description, from lacking appropriate ammunition or some other plot device that renders them useless.  Mustadio is referring to legends, whether they are true in the so-called modern age or not.

The correct spelling is Gologras, in the case of Golagros/Gorgoroth.  Now, when I was looking up lists of Great Old Ones and Elder Gods, I came up with Golgoroth, a blackened toad with a piercing stare.  In fact, I wrote the guy in for an encounter in a fan-fic of mine a few days ago, following that implication and giving him some mutagenic powers since becoming undead that befit his idiom and menace (he is pretty damn vicious and argumentative, you know).  Don't assume he turns into an amphibian--instead, I have his eyes bleeding acid from gouging them out and he smells constantly like cordite, a type of blasting powder.  Remember his cause of death and you'll get the correlation.  He does have the tongue, something he uses to molest cute little redhead girls who wear black suits.

Golgoroth, in the context of a miserable toad, fits well as a nice "nickname" considering he abducted Teta and made her a hostage; Sir Folles would undoubtedly confront him and offer up the nickname, even though his real name is Gologras or Sir Levigne.  There, done.  Gologras bears no similarity to his literary origins and is, instead, better off being referred to as Sir Levigne when in polite company.  Sir Folles will call him that while trying to convince him to follow a simple order.  There is a lot you can tell about someone from a few simple implications from what they say.  That's what they mean by snappy dialogue: you get what's happening in a few brushstrokes, which saves time and space.


Also, Blackram is a faint reference to one of the titles of Shub-Niggurrath, Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young.  You could say Black Ram of the Weald with a Thousand Ewes.  Unit Blackram is supposed to sound very menacing, no matter their actual fate in the story.  Again, Gorgoroth sounded similar to the Great Old Ones (the aforementioned Toad).

In fact, the whole background behind the seven Lucavi mirrored the seven bizarre Lovecraftian "Les Invisibles" from the semi-Album of the Blue Oyster Cult, "Imaginos", an out-of-sequence series of tracks that describe a human wanderer who becomes Desdenova, Eternal Light, who starts to bend history by invading the thoughts of key figures so as to perpetuate wars and destruction, much akin to the plot of Tactics (being the unschooled wretch I am, I first heard Astronomy through Metallica's Garage Inc. album).

The fact that the head-honcho behind Tactics did Ogre Battle and Tactics Ogre and named those games after songs from Queen Albums (Curse of the Black Queen?  Dead-Ringer!) cannot be ignored.  The correlation should not come as a surprise; upon the mere encyclopaedic analysis, I concluded that the scope of Final Fantasy Tactics, with its leeriness in trusting religion or human potential, with cosmic usurpers operating behind the veil of perception, is indeed a Lovecraftian marvel without truly exposing itself as one.

Thus, if Alex Smith thought Gologras was Gorgoroth, as a reference to a Great Old One, it was an innocent gesture of complicity towards the imagined inspirations of the original authors, that they wanted as many references to said literature to shine through.  Besides, Gologras bears no similarity to the video game incarnation, as Dawn had mentioned.


I'm calling them Sapphira and Rouge.  Ruby doesn't sound threatening enough as a ho' assassin's name, and it's also been used rather frequently in games like this.  To add more humor, they are never referred to by name, even when Elmdor is addressing them.  Ramza's mind conjures up the names so as not to just call them blonde and brunette.  Seriously.


I am aware that Isolde is a lady's name.  When I mentioned the word hazing in the context of Isilud's character, I interpolated a history of abuse that led to receiving a female's name as a joke.  Or, the Japanese authors failed to establish whether or not the name is unisex like Leslie, Marion, or Ashley.  Then again, they're doing all the research; they should have known.  The idea that he was being hazed came to light as a way of working in what could be his actual name, which in this case might as well be Tristam. 

Proponents toward the original name include his blue attire, and his Stone, Pisces (that otherwise invokes Leviathan--no joke, look up the wheel in the FFWIKIA page), and that the names merge "Ice" and "Battle" into one word.  That would explain his cool head even during pressure, very focused on what must be done, even in the face of death.  Or rather, invoke that sentiment in his character.  The use of Pisces to evoke an aquatic sentiment also illustrated some level of kindness, for he did worry over Sir Folles and offer a flayed confessional before Alma.  This is not the behavior of an irresolute man.

I still thought it was some kind of inside joke to give him such a name, because while checking his name in the wiktionary (both of them), the search turned up negative--nothing there at all--but while browsing the interwebs, I discovered that Izlude was the Satellite City near Prontera, where King Tristan III reigns (i.e. in Ragnarok Online).  Izlude is still similar to Isolde, and it amazed me that there was another reference of uncanny proximity between those names.  It was then that I settled on using one or both names in some capacity.

The last bit against my theory is that Izlude, in my ear at least, sounds fairly Arabic.  Exotic to some degree.  However, after associating the Knights Templar with their real-world origins as former escorts to the medieval Holy Land, the name that sounded similar to a dervish that might be chopped down for crossing paths with a mounted knight sounded even more alien, given he stood in their ranks.  It was just another spot where both translations have messed with me.


Keep suggesting shit.  Don't forget that the translation to be used will also be available to others and, given appropriate notice, can be tailored if necessary.

LastingDawn

I for one never bought the "history of abuse" line that is often heralded in Izlude/Meliadoul's backstory postulated by fans for several good reasons. First is that through Meliadoul and Izlude we can see how Vormav once was. He was stern, but he instilled within his children the same goals that the Church gave to its higher members. He taught them that the world must burn for the world to be renewed and both sought towards this goal in their own manner. We see one thing that he does to "abuse" his children and that's slapping Izlude minutes before killing him as Hashmalum/Vormav.

I don't think that's fair to say that there's a history of abuse in the family. Both Izlude and Meliadoul look up to their father, they don't fear him in any way. What makes him act in that manner is clearly the stone's possession which is most likely a recent matter. The stones only seem to activate when a person goes through a heavy ordeal that they cry out for help, in which the stone responds.

I surmise that for Vormav it was the death of his unmentioned wife, just as it was for Cardinal Draclau, since it mentions in his Brave Story that after his wife was killed by a fanatic he became a changed man.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Dome

Neophyte Ronin, I like how you are turning the deadly assassins' names into a joke for the player
I guess it will make the pwning they usually inflict a little less severe

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Dome

Any other update on the script, Ronin?
People won't be able to give you feedback if you don't give them some info about what are you doing :-)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Darkholme

I see big lists of changes you're doing to the vanilla game.

Are any of the things in the list on page 1 already in 1.01C? Like the various ASM hacks mentioned?

Maybe you guys won't like this suggestion, but perhaps a modular approach would be the best idea?

Starting with FFT Complete (for the extra features) and then adding your new translation; and then making the gameplay changes a separate patch?

I don't "Know" if it will happen, but someone else may want to use your translation with a different set of gameplay mods.

Starting with FFT: Complete seems like a given just for access to the cool shit they unlocked (even if they didn't unlock all of it).

Dome

Quote from: Darkholme on August 16, 2012, 09:11:28 pm
Are any of the things in the list on page 1 already in 1.01C? Like the various ASM hacks mentioned?
Most of the stuff is already implemented in 1.01C Beta, you can freely play it (It's only missing some DD fight)

Quote from: Darkholme on August 16, 2012, 09:11:28 pm
Starting with FFT: Complete seems like a given just for access to the cool shit they unlocked (even if they didn't unlock all of it).
FFT: Plus is most probably going to use this patch as a starting point (It's the same as Vanilla FFT, but with a better organized "inside")
Which features FFT: Complete has that plus doesnt?

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Darkholme

They did things that enabled some of the stuff that got taken out of the USA FFT.

- More books along the lines of the Germonik Scriptures
- Music Player.
- UI adjustments to fit bigger ability names.