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Disgaea 4 Discussion - May contain spoilers

Started by RandMuadDib, May 19, 2011, 11:13:06 pm

RandMuadDib

May 19, 2011, 11:13:06 pm Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 12:49:47 am by RandMuadDib
Disgaea 4: A Promise Unforgotten released yesterday!
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

Wolfran

OMSA, The sprites are in HD :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
It's a shame that is just for PS3  :(.
Welcome to FFH were you can do things like...

RandMuadDib

So has anyone else picked up Disgaea 4 yet? I'm trying to find a good early powerlevelling map and coming up with nothing. Of course google is useless and there isnt anything up on the Disgaea wiki yet. Anyone found a good spot?
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

Kagebunji

Uoi will find one sooner or later, it is always like this in Disgaea. My advice is to throw enemies at each other so they level up and then kill them, it's a perfect way to level up early in the game.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Tigerspike

Disgaea 4 is on my "must get" list, even though I doubt I'll have the time to play it much.
Oh come now. That doesn't even make sense. How can flimsy paper possibly beat the raw density of stone?

Mando


^ New FFAT website made by St4r!

Jubei1986

i agree with kage thats how im doing it so far, as far as i can see, no real good powerleveling maps just yet...than again im only like 10 or so hours into it lol. Amazing game though!

Kaijyuu

Quote from: Mando on September 08, 2011, 09:42:26 am


BECAUSE KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

Nippon Ichi actually sucks at this more than you might think.

They started out making the Puppet Princess games, only one of which was released outside of Japan (under the title Rhapsody). Decent games, but like Disgaea, allll the same. Then came along La Pucelle, which drew HEAVY inspiration from said puppet princess games (setting is almost identical, just darker). Disgaea was their first major shift in terms of story and theme (and even then there's a lot of La Pucelle influence. The demons in La Pucelle are quite similar to Disgaea demons, just more overtly evil), and once again they fell into a rut and kept making the same thing.

To be fair they've tried to innovate. They made Soul Nomad and Phantom Brave, after all. Those just didn't catch on like Disgaea or Puppet Princess did.
  • Modding version: PSX

Mando

I actually liked Phantom Brave. But man Disgaea... is too similar in itself among titles. I always watch some playthroughs to see if I'd pick up one... and always decide not to. I liked #1 but after that... I was like ok... looks TOO similar.

I guess people could say that about Final Fantasy but they try and deviate quite a bit (normally via battle systems)

^ New FFAT website made by St4r!

RandMuadDib

Okay so wow... just spent an hour on a map with clones...
I have two heavy hitters, Valvatorez and a mage-ghost (who continually replenishes his sp). I usually use the clone panels and valvatorez to share mana and xp (havent unlocked ordeals 4 yet), and then bring out the ghost to help finish off the map, since killing everything with one person is damn tough when a new enemy pops onto the map every turn.

Bottom line: i hit end turn instead of execute, and my ghost died. it took bloody forever for me to get lucky enough to kill the last guy with a counter. I was nearly out of sp for valvatorez, too.
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

Durbs

September 14, 2011, 07:42:21 pm #10 Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 07:44:59 pm by Durbs
Quote from: Mando on September 08, 2011, 02:44:11 pm
I actually liked Phantom Brave. But man Disgaea... is too similar in itself among titles. I always watch some playthroughs to see if I'd pick up one... and always decide not to. I liked #1 but after that... I was like ok... looks TOO similar.

I guess people could say that about Final Fantasy but they try and deviate quite a bit (normally via battle systems)


Yeah. Actually playing PB right now after having finished Disgaea 1 and 2, though I've never played 3/4/Soul Nomad. The first Disgaea was PHENOMENAL, by the way. I love that game :mrgreen:. Disgaea 2 was the exact same thing, though. Hell, it even used the same characters (though I can appreciate why). It's not necessarily the worst thing ever, but what it lacked was original characters and ideas. You don't get better than the first game's cast or their battle system... which turns out to be a duoble-edged sword. All of their first titles are impossible to follow up and not steal the most popular aspects (basically, the whole game) from their earlier ones. They become copies of each other.
  • Modding version: PSX

DaveSW

I don't know what the problem is with all the Disgaea sequels being more of the same.  Isn't that the point of a sequel?  New IP = new game play.  Same IP = same basic game play.
I am awesome.

Kaijyuu

Quote from: DaveSW on September 23, 2011, 12:01:32 pm
I don't know what the problem is with all the Disgaea sequels being more of the same.  Isn't that the point of a sequel?  New IP = new game play.  Same IP = same basic game play.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Sequelitis

The point of a sequel, to be absolutely blunt, is to make money. More of the same is a bad thing, but people demand it because they mistakenly think lightning will strike twice.

Look at any good sequel, like Back to the Future 2 and 3, and the Final Fantasy series. What do you notice, when comparing them to the original or previous installments? There are significant differences. Plenty of references and homages, of course, but they're still very different.

Disgaea 2 and 3, however, followed pretty much the exact same formula with minor tweaks to the gameplay. What was different, like story, wasn't better than what was in Disgaea 1, or even close to as good. That's why the complaints.
  • Modding version: PSX

DaveSW

September 24, 2011, 02:21:43 am #13 Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 02:23:57 am by DaveSW
Uh, video games and sequels are very different than any other medium and sequels.
More of the same, plus new features is NOT bad when the original is good.
Metroid and Super Metroid, for instance, or The Legend of Zelda and TLoZ:ALttP. In both cases the sequel is just more of the exact same formula, with some new shit thrown in. Also, in both cases the the second game is very different, and is not nearly as good.
Also,  Mega Man 2.
Lufia 2.
Castlevania 3.  (CV2 also deviated from the first, and sucked)
Mario both proves and disproves this, as both versions of Super Mario Brothers 2 suck, and one is just the first game with new shit, the other is something completely different.  As for FF, the same formula is used in FF4-9, and I find that all the 'innovation' from 10 on has done nothing but hurt the series.
Ooh, Breath of Fire 3, 4, and 5.  3 Had some new ideas, but was a very meh game.  BoF 4 streamlined all the crap in BoF3, and is an awesome game.  BoF 5 went a completely different route, and ended up a mixed bag of poorly implemented ideas.

Also, Back to the Future 2 was half of the first movie redone with a hover board and less violence, and Back to the Future 3 was just... bad.

Disgaea 2 was better game than the first, even if the story sucked.  Same with Disgaea 3.  I don't want the gameplay to change, I just want refinements.  I want the game to play better each sequel, I want more viable options.  I want to be able to sink more hours into it.  (I also want all the DLC to carry over...)  I don't want them to make radical changes.  Not to Disgaea.  If they want to do something different, then they should make a new IP.  

Unrelated: Soul Nomad's end game betrayal COMPLETELY killed any fun I was having.  Seriously, my favorite character was a major villain the whole damn time? WTF?  I SPENT HOURS LEVELING YOU SO YOU COULD SOLO THAT GAME!  The bastard.
I am awesome.

Kalas

I'm finding Disgaea 4 to be the most fun I've ever had...and I barely have fun with the series.

Tea

Quote from: DaveSW on September 24, 2011, 02:21:43 am
Uh, video games and sequels are very different than any other medium and sequels.
More of the same, plus new features is NOT bad when the original is good.
Metroid and Super Metroid, for instance, or The Legend of Zelda and TLoZ:ALttP. In both cases the sequel is just more of the exact same formula, with some new shit thrown in. Also, in both cases the the second game is very different, and is not nearly as good.
Also,  Mega Man 2.
Lufia 2.
Castlevania 3.  (CV2 also deviated from the first, and sucked)
Mario both proves and disproves this, as both versions of Super Mario Brothers 2 suck, and one is just the first game with new shit, the other is something completely different.  As for FF, the same formula is used in FF4-9, and I find that all the 'innovation' from 10 on has done nothing but hurt the series.
Ooh, Breath of Fire 3, 4, and 5.  3 Had some new ideas, but was a very meh game.  BoF 4 streamlined all the crap in BoF3, and is an awesome game.  BoF 5 went a completely different route, and ended up a mixed bag of poorly implemented ideas.

Also, Back to the Future 2 was half of the first movie redone with a hover board and less violence, and Back to the Future 3 was just... bad.

Disgaea 2 was better game than the first, even if the story sucked.  Same with Disgaea 3.  I don't want the gameplay to change, I just want refinements.  I want the game to play better each sequel, I want more viable options.  I want to be able to sink more hours into it.  (I also want all the DLC to carry over...)  I don't want them to make radical changes.  Not to Disgaea.  If they want to do something different, then they should make a new IP. 

Nice try. There is a difference between a bad game and a bad sequel. Furthermore, there is a difference between expanding on a concept and doing the same all over again.
Metroid is an adventure game, and thus replaying the game has less worth than any other, seeing as how you already discovered (most of) the world the first time. Super Metroid refining the gameplay makes it only better, but the adventure is new. In film, the same is true. An adventure sequel means more, new adventures with the same characters. In books, the same.
The Zelda games are a bit different. Zelda 1 and 2 are very different, yes, they could very well be different series. However, a game being worse than it's previous installment and it being different are two different things. This is seen if we go further in the Zelda series, which stay true to the first one in gameplay. But, Zelda being adventures, the refinements are welcome, but the main difference is that the world is different.
Mega Man I never played.
Lufia 2, an RPG for a change, is a prequel, not a sequel. Besides that, RPG's are about role-playing. The roles in this RPG are different, and thus is a new game justified. That it improves on the world and gameplay only makes it better. Also, Lufia tells the story of an adventure.
Castlevania I also did not play.
Mario is very interesting. The Other Mario 2 does not disprove the argument per se, as it too is an enjoyable game, just very weird in atmosphere. The rest of the series again is all different enough to not be the same, but they expand on the concept. The Jap Mario 2 one might argue is a good sequel. It expands on the concept, in difficulty. It's not so much a new game as an expansion, and has it's place.
Final Fantasy uses a different battle system every game, which keeps the gameplay fresh, but is mostly about playing a role, which is different each game. FF1, the start, is simple, and more than the others about the growth of your chars. FF2 is more cinematic, and has an epic story to tell. FF3 is again most about growing chars, and does it beautifully with the job system. FF4 is again a cinematic with emphasis on the characters involved. FF5 takes itself seriously in no way whatsoever, has very enjoyable characters, and one of the best char-grow systems. FF6 is all about the characters, and has less char growth options than before, or at least it mattered less. FF7 was the big story of one man, had enjoyable side-chars, had the materia system, which was simple but gave a lot of options. It was less strategic, since levels mattered so much in damage, your stats were meh. FF8 is mostly about the characters, but still has a fresh new gameplay which has potential, but is unbalanced. FF9, characters, and the interactions they have. Simple gameplay. FF10, Tidus's story, plus Sphere grid. FF10-2, fan service and the waste of the best FF battle system ever. FFXI, role playing to the max. FFXII, epic story (that tries too hard) with enormous (unbalanced) character growth freedom. Others I did not play.

Disgaea however, gives mostly the same gameplay, the same atmosphere, the same roles, every game. The biggest difference between "new game" and the new game is the sixty bucks you pay. You can perhaps compare them best with all the remakes that have been released of all them FF games, if those were sequels. It's not even more of the same, it's only the same.


RandMuadDib

Wow i didnt think there would be so many haters for disgaea on a FFTactics board.

As to the "disgaea doesnt grow" comments, that's flat out untrue. The second disgaea added Dark World, which was later renamed x-dimension and land of carnage. It also had the felony system which was a neat addition, though it did not carry over to the ps3 titles. It also added the megaphone items, which gave a boost to dark assembly meetings for specific species of monsters.

The third game had the most additions, with changing geo symbols to geo blocks, adding the class world, the clubs (which became evil symbols in 4), adding the preferred senator items, the new magichange system, and reverse pirating.

In disgaea 4, they refined the magichange system and added dual magichange and monster fusion, changed the class world (now chara world), added online elements like the map maker and pirate duelling, and added the branching path system for item world.

All of these are expansions of concept, not simply doing the same thing over and over. Yes, the settings and characters are similar throughout the series, and it can be quite cheesy at times, but Disgaea was never meant to be as serious or as dark as something like Final Fantasy Tactics. Its a lighthearted romp designed specifically for those who enjoy level grinding for hours at a time, not so different from Tactics players who would level up with ninja or whatever high-stat growth classes and level back down as a chemist or bard just to repeat the process.

If you don't like it, that's cool, its not for everybody, but it is by no means a stagnant series.
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

Kaijyuu

Disgaea far from sucks. The first game was groundbreaking... it's just that the sequels were not.  Still great games in their own right; just nothing new.

It's funny you should call them "expansions of the concept" because the idea behind an expansion pack does come to mind when looking at the sequels. Content was added, and gameplay was tweaked. An entirely new game, though? Doesn't feel like it.

If more content is all you want, then sure, I can see why you'd be content. My standards are a bit higher though.
  • Modding version: PSX

RandMuadDib

1) the expansion of concept term was used by someone else, i was just continuing that.

2) the differences between the games can't really be called minor tweaks. Minor changes, perhaps, or major tweaks, but since a tweak is by definition a small change, calling them minor tweaks doesnt do them justice.
I will show you the power of SARDIIIIINES!!!!

DaveSW

Tea, it is actually really amazing how bad your perception is.  Every complaint you have against Disgaea can be applied to every game you tried to defend, and every single example of why other games have good sequels equally applies to Disgaea. 
I am awesome.